A bi-partisan example of kneejerk overreaching stupidity

[jancantor]

(both repub AG Mckenna and Dem Governor Gregoire proposed this)

In brief, a bunch of college kids got REALLY drunk. Not shocking. One nearly died. Not shocking. But some of them were drinking the EVIL ALCOHOLIC ENERGY DRINKS that... combine... alcohol and caffeine.

Now of course prior to this, nobody has ever combined consumption of caffeine and alcohol. Nope. Not in WA state. That's absurd. Red Bull and Vodka (not illegal to sell at a bar, even post ban)? What's that. People have never had a huge highly caffeinated coffee drink and then gone out drinking. Nope. That stuff doesn't happen.

Initially, after this incident everybody was screaming "it must be roofies " etc. (yes, that's what "investigators" initially fought). Well now the convenient scapegoat has been found. Despite the fact that the kid's BAC's ranged up to .35!!!!! which is rather close to the LD50 for alcohol, nope--- the fault was ALCOHOLIC ENERGY DRINKS.

stupid kneejerk nannystate crap.



http://www.komonews.com/news/local/107054863.html

OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) - Washington state is banning alcoholic energy drinks.

The state Liquor Control Board adopted that rule Wednesday morning. It takes effect Nov. 18.

The ban comes after nine Central Washington University students were hospitalized after a party last month. Authorities say they drank the caffeinated malt liquor beverage Four Loko.

The students had blood-alcohol levels ranging from 0.12 percent to 0.35 percent, and a female student nearly died, CWU

[TexasObserver]

1. Unrecommended. It's a good law and a health/safety issue.

The uninformed need government as their nanny, if that's the term you like to use for it.

[Fumesucker]

2. Alcohol is safe because it's legal..

And legal because it's safe.

I was at one time surprised at how many people think that way.

[jancantor]

4. Who said alcohol was "safe"?

It's a dangerous drug when abused. It's actually a BENEFIT to health when used in moderation, as numerous studies are showing. The difference between the two - individual choice. All drugs are a poison in sufficient dosage. I think Hippocrates said that. Maybe mj is an exception :)

These kids did what lots of college kids have done in the past. Drank to excess. Heck, I did it in college once where I had to get an IV inserted by paramedics. Granted, the projectile vomiting caused massive blood loss because it exacerbated an internal injury I suffered in sports that day. Oh well. My, and SOLELY my responsibility.

A bunch of college kids drank too much. No story here. Everybody looks for a scapegoat.

This is no different than blaming "evil Muslims" for 911 or any other stupid scapegoating issue. Alcoholic energy drinks aren't the problem. These individuals' behavior was. And they paid the price.

[jancantor]

3. absolutely 100% no

no.

It's scapegoating. The kids drank to excess. They bear the sole responsibility

[TexasObserver]

5. Many young people who drink do so without a lot of thought.

We were young, and know that is not the exception for young people who drink to excess.

Anyone with any learning knows that those caffeine and booze drinks are particularly dangerous. Do some research on it. I learned that when they first came out.

Getting drunk beyond repair is bad enough, but getting drunk with caffeine in the mix is even more dangerous.

Your point of view seems more libertarian than anything.

[jancantor]

8. Of course

So do many adults. And guess what? They are responsible for the consequences. I have done plenty of research on this. I've read the AER's. And this kneejerk response means NOBODY can buy these drinks in WA state now.

"let's do it for the children". Well, ok college kids arent children. I mean we let them VOTE and join the military, but God forbid they should be able to have red bull and vodka. Oh wait. THEY can. Bars can still sell it. But they can't buy a pre-combined maltliquor/caffeine drink.

Regardless, mixing alcohol and caffeine has been happening for CENTURIES. This is HARDLY something new. It's just a different way to market it. Ever heard of frigging Kahlua?

I don't give a flying fuck if my pov "sounds libertarian". Legalizing MJ sounds "libertarian". Doesn't stop me from supporting it. Marriage equality sounds "libertarian". Ditto.

Screw labels. This is a perfect example of kneejerk legislation because nobody is willing to say 'those kids got drunk off their ass and one nearly died. They need to control their behavior or continue to suffer the consequences". Nope. It CAN'T be the kids' fault. The evil can-weevils MADE them drink until the point that their BAC (some of them) was ABOVE .3!!!!!

Alcohol is beneficial drug when used in moderation. (read those studies). It is immensely dangerous when abused. That's been true for thousands of years. Plus ca change. They were LOOKING for a scapegoat because god forbid kids should take responsibility. Heck, most of these kids were under 21. Even their drinking this stuff (since it wasn't provided by a parent in their own house) was a violation of WA state law.

[JVS]

7. What about those of us who use these drinks responsibly as a way to be sociable after a long week...

of work without being put to sleep in our already fatigued states? We shouldn't have our rights truncated for a few bad apples.

[TexasObserver]

9. They don't have coffee where you live?

You can't buy No Doze?

You can't drink an energy drink that isn't part of an alcoholic beverage?

You have a right to drink an energy drink and a right to drink alcohol.

[jancantor]

12. And you should have a right to buy malt liquor fortified with caffeine

which is what these energy drinks are, and to market them as well. Fwiw, this law does not outlaw consumptiom of alcohol and caffeine. It outlaws a specific preparation thereof. The primary problem here is the scapegoating. They are ignoring the REAL problem by finding a convenient scapegoat.

[TexasObserver]

13. It doesn't outlaw drinking them together, only selling them as one drink.

That's why I said what I said.

[jancantor]

15. I am aware of that

which makes it doubleplus stupid. Red Bull and vodka is hugely popular in WA bars (at least where I live). Red Bull and vodka is the same frigging thing as throwing caffeine into malt liquor. It's a kneejerk reaction. That way the real problem can be ignored, blame can be misplaced, and smug politicians can be happy they DID something to fight the evil scourge of can weevils driving college kids to (illegally - since most were under 21) drink to excess. Not like college kids would have drank to excess w/o the encouragement of the energy drink can weevils. Nope. THAT's never happened before.

[sally cat]

6. "This is no different than blaming "evil Muslims" for 911" You don't think Muslims did it?

[jancantor]

10. I don't think "the muslims" are responsible for it

I think Al Qaeda (a Muslim group) and the individuals who did 9/11 are responsible. I don't blame Muslims. I blame THOSE Muslims and Al Qaeda. The vast majority of peaceful Muslims are not responsible.

I don't blame alcoholic energy drinks for their binge drinking. I blame THEM. Those of us who might choose to drink one of these drinks (I have never had any desire to - but then I don't drink malt liquor) are now unable to purchase them, the company that made them is unable to sell them, all because some moronic college kids DRANK TO EXCESS.

Like they have been doing for ... well... as long as there's been college.

[Ron Green]

11. I'm weary of anyone screaming "Nannystate," and wary of low post counters

doing the same.

Unrecommended for sure.

[jancantor]

14. You can be weary (and wary) of reality all you want

Truths need to be shouted from the rooftops. Let's remember this is WA state. Where the nannystate is firmly entrenched. Yup, I said it NANNYSTATE

[gratuitous]

16. Gee, let's not have our college age kids die

It's the end of the American experiment, keeping beverages off the shelves that mask the effects of alcohol for inexperienced drinkers. Won't someone think of the bingeing children? How else are they going to learn their limits if some of them don't die in the lesson?

Investigators were indeed perplexed when the incident first occurred because alcoholic energy drinks hadn't been on the market very long, and they cast about for an explanation. Once the students recovered and were able to give an account of their activities that night, it became apparent what had happened.

This seems a common sense response to a heretofore unrecognized danger.

[jancantor]

18. lol. Heretofore unrecognized danger

College kids have been combining alcohol and caffeine for a long time. This doesn't stop that. It doesn't stop Red Bull and vodka. It doesn't stop kahlua drinks. Heck, it doesn't stop kids from throwing vodka into their energy drinks of an kind.

It is not a common sense response. It's a kneejerk response. Of COURSE the kids are going to look for a scapegoat. And the credulous adults (especially their parents) are going to be eager to listen. After all, why would the kids , especially the underage ones say "I was drinking like a fucking fish. I paid the price". riiiiiight. Nope, everybody was looking for a scapegoat. The first one in the press was "roofies".

Alcohol is a dangerous drug. It's beneficial in moderation and becomes increasingly dangerous with overconsumption. A huge percentage of our drinking population consumes tons of caffeine and liquor. This is frigging the Pacific NW for pete's sake.

There's nothing magic that happens when you add caffeine to malt liquor that doesn't happen when you drink a red bull and vodka. NOTHING. It is the exact same effect. However, that wasn't an easy scapegoat at this party.

[gratuitous]

20. You seem very knowledgeable about what was going on there

Why would the kids be looking for a scapegoat? After all, according to one post of yours, they're fully grown and mature adults, capable of handling anything and everything life throws their way. Then in your next post, they're scared kids looking to blame someone or something else for their own actions. You make lots of comparisons to hypotheticals involving red bull and vodka, but not a word about the actual case of inexperienced drinkers pounding down pre-mixed cocktails. Curious. Someone pouring themselves a red bull and vodka can make it stronger or weaker. Someone gulping down a pre-mix, particularly someone who doesn't have a history of drinking experience, can't monitor that. Why not take the pre-mixed stuff off the shelf, at least until the public is better experienced and educated about it?

No, you're absolutely right; better to have some young people die than interfere with some company's right to make a buck off an easily abused and lethal product. The empire totters if we don't!

[jancantor]

22. When you can stop the strawmen

I'll get back to you. Nowhere did I say anything like they are "full grown and mature adults, capable of handling anything and eveything life throws their way". Not even close.

Fwiw, I don't think ANYBODY I have ever met meets that qualification, let alone some college kids. Among other things, the fact that many of them drank to the point where their BAC's were in the high .20's up to mid .30's says quite the opposite.

When you can construct an argument devoid of strawmen/false assumptions, I'll be happy to respond

[mr_liberal]

17. Hopefully the Four Loko company will sue

this dingbat Gregoire and her stupid Ag who will then end up paying them millions in damages and court costs.

Dont worry when the courts get a hold of this case they wont care abotu the politics of it, theyll study the science and the law and do whats right.

Four Loko Im sure probably realizes this and cant believe how fortunate they are for the great free publicity.

[jancantor]

19. Remember the similar kneejerk ephedrine hysteria.

Congress (in a bipartisan fit of nannyism) got all "concerned" about the evil ephedrine, pulled some bogus AER's out of its ass and got it (temporarily) banned for sale / marketing as a dietary supplement. The courts promptly overruled and it was back on the shelves.

I am not saying Four Loko has a case to sue for. I have no idea. I am just saying it's a boneheaded kneejerk piece of govt. response.

[David__77]

21. I drink vodka Red Bull every weekend.

No problem here. Banning these is ludicrous. So then you just mix the energy drink and the liquor, which is probably cheaper and better tasting anyway.