Cleveland Symphony players support striking Detroit Symphony musicians

[Hannah Bell]

Striking members of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra will be joined by members of the Cleveland Symphony in a show of solidarity at an October 24 support concert. The walkout by DSO musicians against massive concession demands is entering its third week. Meanwhile, orchestra management says it is canceling all scheduled concerts through November 7 as well as a recording project.

DSO musicians struck October 4 after management imposed the terms of its final contract. DSO musicians say the cuts demanded by management would mean the destruction of the symphony as a top rated orchestra. Management’s final contract offer included a 33 percent pay cut for current musicians, a 42 percent salary reduction for starting players, drastic changes in work rules and cuts in benefits.

At least one dozen musicians from the Cleveland Symphony, one of the top US orchestras, are planning to travel to Detroit to play in the concert to be held at Christ Church Cranbrook in the Detroit suburb of Bloomfield Hills. The event will feature award-winning violinist and conductor Joseph Silverstein and violinists Sarah Crocker of New York’s Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, Elayna Duitman of the Cleveland Symphony and DSO Associate Concertmaster Kimberly Kaloyanides Kennedy.

Independent television station WADL-TV38 says it will broadcast the concert live...The struggle by the DSO musicians is attracting the attention of artists and musicians nationally, who see it as a fundamental attack on culture.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/oct2010/dsos-o18.shtml

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Good for the Cleveland Symphony!

That takes guts.

I wish the DSO all the best.

Recommended.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

2. Cleveland is one of the great orchestras of the United States.

I saw them play once, many years ago, conducted by Lorin Maazel....amazing string sound.

[maryf]

3. Solidarity!

it works! K&R

[blindpig]

4. k&r

[skepticscott]

5. These people are rich

by every standard you hold dear. They make high five figure or low six figure salaries for working far less than a full year. There are a lot of "hard-working" Americans who deserve more sympathy and support.

[Hannah Bell]

6. what are you babbling about now? "High five figure"? OMG, OMG!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

9. lol. absolutely shocking. $80K for a world-ranked symphony member, ah

the filthy rich.

it's almost as bad as paying an autoworker $80k.

glad you understand the value of a dollar, scotty.

[skepticscott]

10. Are those people rich, or aren't they?

Is someone making 80K for 25-30 weeks work a year rich, or not? Answer the question, and be sure that your answer will be remembered.

[LanternWaste]

12. You mean they never practice on their own time?

"25-30 weeks work a year..."

You mean they never practice on their own time? Or do we not consider that work?

[skepticscott]

14. Duck and dodge

Answer the question...are these people rich or not? Are people making a salary of $80,000-$100,000 a year rich? Yes or no?

[LanternWaste]

15. I doubt my your answer is predicated on mine.

I doubt my your answer is predicated on mine.

As to what rich is, I'm not clever enough to know,

Is practice work or not?

I see you've qualified your question... going from the implication of only 25 weeks of work a year, to the actual dismissal of that premise. Nice.

[skepticscott]

17. And why is that relevant?

Here's a quote from one of the links you demanded (which you obviously have avoided reading)

"Median musician pay in Cleveland was $140,200 last year, the orchestra said. That would have dropped to $134,100 in the first year of the proposed contract that musicians rejected. Current benefits include 10 weeks of paid vacation, according to the orchestra.

Salaries have increased faster in recent years at the New York Philharmonic and other big-city orchestras, according to the Cleveland musicians union. The minimum annual musician salary at the New York Philharmonic is $129,740, 12 percent above the $115,440 figure in Cleveland.

In 2007-08, the top-paid musician at the Cleveland Orchestra was concertmaster William Preucil, who made $433,817 in pay and benefits, according to the orchestra’s tax return posted on Guidestar.org."

MINIMUM pay for the Cleveland Orchestra was $115,000+...MEDIAN pay was $140,000+. Even working full time, is that rich, or not? Answer the question or go away.

[leftstreet]

18. We should all be making that n/t

[LanternWaste]

20. You mentioned it originally , so I thought it was relevant.

You mentioned it originally , so I thought it was relevant. However if you were merely adding melodrama to your statement, that's a different thing.

Is practice work or not?

[skepticscott]

21. Sure it is

Is $140,000 a year rich or not?

[LanternWaste]

23. No idea.

No idea. I imagine to some it is, to others not so much.

So I can presume that the statement "only working 25 weeks a year" was color on your part? Answer the question or go away (not really... stay all you want, as I don't mind people having different opinions, or telling me they don't know... :) )

[skepticscott]

27. Be disingenuous if you want

and hold to the position that someone making that kind of salary isn't rich. You're in disagreement with most people on most threads on the topic that pop up here.

[LanternWaste]

29. I'm not saying they are not rich

I'm not saying they are not rich. I'm saying (and I'll type this slowly...), "I don't know what rich or poor is..."

[skepticscott]

35. Please continue to be disingenuous

if it comforts you. But just for fun, try starting a thread here claiming that someone that makes $140,000 a year is not rich, and see what kind of responses you get. I think we both know how that will work out, but deny it if you like...

[LanternWaste]

39. I get no comfort from my own ignorance...

I get no comfort from my own ignorance. I admit it, and if necc., learn. However, it would appear that, like art, you're not sure what rich is either, but you know it when you see it. :shrug:

As you've failed to answer the question directly as was afforded to you, and as you're now making self-validating implications about my sincerity, I'm afraid that without any (sincere) suggestions from you, I just don't see where this is going.

[skepticscott]

24. Some orchestras work longer seasons

and some don't. You do know that, don't you? Are you saying that if someone makes a $140,000 salary, but actually has to work full time for it, that means they aren't really rich? If not, then your point is irrelevant.

[LanternWaste]

26. why bring up number of hours worked in the first place?

If that point is irrelevant, why bring up number of hours worked in the first place?

[skepticscott]

30. Because some orchestra members make 80K or so

ONLY working that much. Some make much more for working more. In both cases, they could hardly be considered anything but rich. It was your point, that having to work full time for a salary like that might make a difference, that was irrelevant.

[LanternWaste]

31. What then is the precise and relevant amount

What then is the precise and relevant amount a musician should be paid on on what objective measure is that based on?

[skepticscott]

33. What in the world does that have to do

with the question of whether they are rich or not?

[LanternWaste]

37. I imagine I'm getting confused...

I imagine I'm getting confused... first you imply that 80k per year is too much, then prevaricate on what they should be paid, then ask why it's relevant? What am I missing?

[skepticscott]

40. You're missing the fact

that I never said or implied that 80K a year is "too much". I said that people making that much and more should be considered rich.

Now are you getting it?

[LanternWaste]

41. Disingenuous indeed.

"These people are rich by every standard you hold dear. They make high five figure or low six figure salaries for working far less than a full year. There are a lot of "hard-working" Americans who deserve more sympathy and support."

Disingenuous indeed.

[skepticscott]

43. Thanks for making my point

All you can point to is where I said that they were rich. Nowhere did I say that they didn't deserve their salary or that they made "too much", now did I? The quote you've latched onto so desperately only implied that there are a lot of people who work just as hard and make a lot less, but are still getting squeezed.

[Hannah Bell]

47. what are you babbling about? nothing you say makes any sense.

[LanternWaste]

11. self delte

[skepticscott]

13. Lots of them

http://viewfromhere.typepad.com/the_view_from_here/2009/12/lyric-opera-of-chicago-orchestra-could-strike-merry-widow-headed-for-divorce-court.html

http://www.icsom.org/settlement/chicago_b.html

http://www.icsom.org/archive/bulletins/2003/detroit03.pdf

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-19/cleveland-orchestra-strikes-for-second-day-over-planned-pay-cut.html

Want more?

[LanternWaste]

16. Is that standard?

Is that standard?

On edit: Additionally, it begs the question-- what then is the precise and relevant wage a musician should be payed? On what objective measure is that based on? Does that apply only to symphony musicians, or musicians of any kind? all artists or merely musicians?

[skepticscott]

22. So is your argument that

some rich people actually deserve to make many times more than people who work just as hard as they do, and have the same needs?

[LanternWaste]

25. I'm making no arguments... merely asking questions.

I'm making no arguments... merely asking questions. :shrug:

However (again), it does appear to beg the question as to precisely what you believe a musicians wage should be, and on what objective measure is that based on?

[skepticscott]

32. The same could be asked about

a fortune 100 CEO who makes an eight figure salary. Can they not be considered rich, just because there is no objective measure for what they should make? What does "rich" have to do with deserving the salary you get, anyway?

[LanternWaste]

34. If you think 80k is too much...

If you think 80k is too much for a musician to get paid as you've implied, what then is the precise and relevant amount they should be paid and on what objective measure is that based on?

I've answered you're question as directly as I can ("I don't know"). You will do the same, yes?

80k is too much as per you. 0k is too little as per life. What is your happy medium?

[skepticscott]

36. When did I ever say that it was "too much"?

Cite EXACTLY where I made that statement, or even implied it.

I said that people making that salary and more should be considered rich. You felt the need to attribute implications to me that I didn't make, to try to bolster a lost argument on your part.

[skepticscott]

49. And will you answer my question directly?

EXACTLY where did I say or even imply what you attributed to me?

[Brickbat]

42. Should they be making less? What do you think they should be making?

What do you do? And how much do you make? Do you have a contract?

[skepticscott]

44. I made no implication about what they "should" be making

now did I? I said that these people are rich, based on what they ARE making.

[Brickbat]

45. Sure they are!

So?

[TBF]

8. K&R

Solidarity!

[leftstreet]

19. K&R

[Starry Messenger]

28. k & r

[Canuckistanian]

38. Damned Symphony players - they're ruining this country

With their unreasonable salary demands and their insistence on "culture".

And those Music Unions - they're just thugs who want to extort money from the decent, hardworking millionaires who run the concert halls and recording corporations.

Bah!

[blondeatlast]

46. Solidarity. k/r

[Manifestor_of_Light]

48. Symphony musicians work very hard.

Do you people have any idea what kind of physical work playing an instrument is, for several hours a day?

It's hard work. I was a serious amateur violinist, from 6th grade through college, for about fifteen years. Age ten to twenty-five. I was not doing it for money. It was physically demanding. When we played musicals in high school and I sat in a pit orchestra, doing 4 hours a night for several nights, I went home with a terribly sore back, aching left shoulder and neck from holding the fiddle, tired hands and a totally fried brain. And I was all of 14 years old.

The violin is a very small instrument & I am a small person. I can just imagine how exhausted big people get that play large instruments that require lots of force, like the timpani, the string bass, the tubas and horns, even the piano.

People in orchestras work very hard. We don't think of playing music as being physically exhausting, but it is very strenuous. Most professionals probably practice several hours a day; I don't know the usual figure. I never practiced as much as a professional would, or as much as a music major would. Some people in music school practice four to six hours a day.

It's an exhausting job, mentally and physically. A group of trained musicians playing in perfect synchrony in an orchestra is a wonder to behold and it's all about years of discipline. Decades of discipline.



/CLASSICAL MUSICIAN RANT OFF

[Ron Green]

50. People who play at this level deserve to be paid as much as sports stars.

It's too bad our "society" doesn't value their talent and effort in the same way.