••• Moore: 40 million illiterate. This is the UNDERLYING reason this country is so easy to brainwash

[breadandwine]

Michael Moore says there are 40 million adult Americans who are functional illiterates, which means they can't read and write above 4th grade level.

I think this is the ultimate reason we have all these fundie wackos turning our political system upside down. There are too many people in this country who are so easy to brainwash.

And they are going to resist attempts to educate them.

"I may not have much ejucation, but I's got me enough ejucation ta know yer wrong!"

I think we should co-opt and buy out the fundies.

If we had a school choice compromise program that paid lip service to school choice, funneled a bit of money into it (Supreme Court, till we replace those coup plotters, says it's constitutional) and a lot of money into public education, two things would happen.

One, people would get more educated.

More people would put their kids in religious schools but they would be the more moderate ones, swamping the wackos.

Once we take back power from these wackos we get rid of the current Supreme Court and get back to the way things used to be.

Religion is too tenacious for a direct assault. If the communists in Russia had said, you can have your religion, we just want to redistribute income, today the whole world would be communist. (No, that's not an endorsement of communism.)

Religion is too tenacious to be hit with a direct assault and needs to be enlisted in the left. Many of the greatest progressives in history, such as the abolitionists, were religious men. I think we need to co-opt and also enlist the religious in the progressive movement. One of the reasons Martin Luther King was such a threat to the power structure was that he spoke in the language of faith.

[Tx4obama]

1. Something else that is disturbing....

I heard on the news that 70% of folks in Afghanistan are illiterate - can not read or write at all.
They get their news/information from the Imams over there.

EDUCATION is the key to world peace!

[breadandwine]

2. That's probably not even the whole story, in fact. Who are the other 30%?

They're educated by what standard?

[breadandwine]

68. Also, in Afghanistan the Taliban ruled that one may not use paper bags. Only plastic.

They ruled this because of the extremely minor possibility that an old Koran might get recycled into a paper bag.

So screw the environment.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

26. anything with God behind it means you got some fucked up shit

yep.

[BolivarianHero]

32. That's why we should have shot the Mujahideen rather than the socialists...

The West really fucked up there. Afghanistan has neighbours with similar demographics that had been part of the Soviet Union, and life is much better there. Some of those countries have an even higher literacy rates than Canada. One thing that Islamic fundamentalists and American foreign policy have in common is a love for illiterate Muslims. That's why there's so much terrorism in the world.

[breadandwine]

3. This is the basic problem we have in America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s69wxejq9fA



It's not enough to talk to such people or hand them a flyer or show them a 30 second TV spot.


You have to educate them.

[proteus_lives]

6. Such people?

My, my.

:eyes:

[Quantess]

20. Are you sure those were all Americans?

That looked like a multinational sampling of clumsy people.

[newspeak]

31. without an educated populace

there is no democracy.

[Sherman A1]

4. Interesting when you consider this thread on a district considering eliminating Kindergarten

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9129576

Does not look good at all....

[breadandwine]

5. Education is always the stepchild of American politics.

When Clinton was governor of Arkansas he came to the realization that the state was so backward that nothing could be done without improving education. He made what some then saw as an almost faustian bargain with some political interests and got them to agree to support a revamp of the state's education system. Without that, the hicks rule.

[Scuba]

7. That's why the right is demonizing teachers and slashing their pay/benefits...

...much easier to rule a bunch of ignorant peasants.

[dkf]

10. Yeah because this is Evidence that teachers are doing a great job and deserve 3 times their salary.

[Scuba]

12. They deserve more than the right wants to give them.

The right wants them to have 1/736th of Proctor and Gamble CEO's pay.

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/ceou/index.cfm

[get the red out]

9. The Republican Corporate power

The Republican/Corporate power has taken over Religion through the use of social issues, it would be nice if "moderate" religion could make a come back along with education. But considering how the power structure is in this country, I doubt that can happen very easily.

[breadandwine]

15. It's interesting to note that when Gingrich began attacking social programs the Catholic Church was

very upset about it because if government cut social programs Catholic programs for helping the poor would be overwhelmed and unable to deal with it financially.

This was a huge opportunity for Democrats politically and I don't think we capitalized on it sufficiently. There are millions of Catholics in the pivotal Midwest and many national elections boil down to who is going to win swing states in the Midwest.

[get the red out]

42. You are correct

Democrats don't capitalize enough on the altruism of Catholics. So many right wing Protestant Churches are more concerned with politics than helping anyone, at least the Catholic Church tries to do something for people. That's definitely something that could be used to promote Democratic politicians.

[breadandwine]

69. Yeah. When Gingrich started thrashing the safety net the Catholic Church was very upset.

And I was really surprised that Democrats didn't leap on this in a direct play to get the Catholic Church to be more supportive of Democrats.

[TheManInTheMac]

11. 40 million can't read and write above a 4th grade level...

Because 40 million Americans are under the age of 9. http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_age.html

[breadandwine]

14. No. Michael Moore said 40 million ADULT Americans are illiterate.

And they can't read and write above 4th grade level.

He said 40 million ADULT Americans.

[TheManInTheMac]

24. I guess my own reading comprehension could use some improving.

:rofl:

[Recursion]

13. I think that's wishful thinking

Conservatives are not, in aggregate, less educated than liberals; for that matter self-identified Tea Partiers are more highly educated than the nation as a whole.

[breadandwine]

16. I don't know which statistics you're looking at but in REAL TERMS tea partiers are F*CKING IGNORANT

IDIOTS.


Either they made it through substandard schools or your statistics are wrong.

[Recursion]

17. We see the really ignorant ones on TV

How much do we really know about the run-of-the-mill tea partier?

The education stat was from a Quinnipiac poll; I can find it if you want.

[SalviaBlue]

21. Based on the TeaBaggers I know... they seem to be educated, but

they are highly susceptible to propaganda. They are older and/or not very tech savvy. They are easily influenced by an overabundance of media influence: TV (Fox), radio (Limbaugh, etc.) and Email spams. Since they are having the same messages repeated from all fronts they think this means it must be true and that the majority of people agree.

They are educated but they are not very smart.

[GreenArrow]

27. "They are educated but they are not very smart"

By the same token, it is possible to be very smart but poorly educated.

[breadandwine]

30. I'll vote for "all of the above."

.....

[Cid_B]

53. I love how...

everyone thinks its just "other people" who are susceptible to propaganda while they are obviously smart enough to see through such shenanigans.

[breadandwine]

29. Thousands of tea partiers were on display at the Glenn Beck rally

and they were interviewed and they are the most miserable ignorant hicks from the sticks. This tells you more than some poll where people are asked if they agree with the tea party which is not the same thing as being a card carrying member.

[cbdo2007]

18. Wrong - it is fear

I know at least a hundred people who believe all the right-wing fundy stuff and all of them can read.

[breadandwine]

33. BTW, How many of them are COMPUTER illiterate?

John McCain said he had to get his wife to help him log onto the internet, was learning how to "get on the Google" and the only web site he said he looked at and was familiar with was Drudge.

In our society if you are computer illiterate you are basically illiterate even if you have more than a 4th grade education.


Then there is a certain man who referred to "the internets" and has the mind of a two year old.

Oh by the way, he went to Yale and his name is George W. Bush.

And his professors at Yale thought he was an ignorant fool.


But he was very well educated --- in how to light his feces on fire and throw them at the house of the drill sergeant.


No, I guess I must have made a mistake. Republicans are well educated, wise, probing intellectuals.

[cbdo2007]

40. all of them.

But you're probably right - all 40 million illiterate Americans are probably the exact 40 million people who show up and vote Repube every year. Yep, I'm sure you're right. Congrats, you're smarter than the rest of us! You must spend all day on the interwebs gaining knowledge and proving how literate you are.

[GoCubsGo]

64. Exactly right.

It's not just belief in all the fundie stuff, either. I know people with college degrees who don't know basic history, civics, geography, etc. It's damn scary.

[TheBigotBasher]

19. Could explain these stats

http://cons-lie.com/2010/09/13/lets-add-stupid-to-the-list/

[breadandwine]

34. Wow. Those linked statistics deserve posting -----

*50% of Americans can identify at least two members of The Simpsons, but only 25% can name more than one right guaranteed by the First Amendment. 22% can name all five members of the Simpsons family, but only 0.1% can name the first 5 amendment guarantees.

*Less than 20% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 34 daily read a newspaper or news website.

*In 2003, a Washington Post Poll showed that a whopping 70% of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was responsible for the 9-11 attacks. Nearly 80% of Faux “News” viewers believed the same falsehood, and over 50% of Americans still believed it after the publishing of the 9-11 Commission Report. The night before we attacked Iraq, a poll concluded that more than half of Americans thought that at least half of the global community was in favor of our actions.

*Only 40% of Americans can name all three branches of government.

*According to a CNN poll, only 1 of 7 people can locate Iraq on a map or globe.

*Only 20% of voters are aware that there are 100 Senators.

*Only 33% of Americans know that it is (supposed to be) Congress that declares wars.

*Only 20% of Americans know who the current Sec. of Defense is. Do you?

*On election night in 2008, 23% of Texans believed Barak Obama is a Muslim. The national average was closer to 10%, but 40% did not know what religion he is.

*A 1991 survey found only 1 of 4 Americans know the length of a Senators term in office.
Less than 50% know that America was the first nation to use an atomic or nuclear weapon.

*30% of Americans don’t know what the Holocaust was.

*Climate change as an issue? A 1996 study showed that less than half of Americans understand that the Earth orbits the Sun yearly. About 15% don’t realize the Earth orbits the Sun at all. One study indicates more than 10% believe the Sun orbits the Earth.

*As we are constantly told by the Religious Right, we are a Christian nation, but half of Americans do not know the name of the first book of the Bible.

(That tells you a lot about how the right has taken over religion in this country.)

*A 2007 report published by the Intercollegiate Studies Institute found that 14,000 randomly selected college students from 50 schools scored under 55% on a test of basic American civics. Less than half knew that the Battle of Yorktown was the last battle of the Revolutionary War.

*During Sandra Day O’Conner’s term as the first woman on the Supreme court, fewer than half of Americans could name her.

*Less than half of Americans can name their own state’s senators or congress persons.

*Only 35% know that Congress can override a presidential veto.

*Almost half believe the president can suspend or override the Constitution (apparently Bush supporters).

*In 2003, the Strategic Task Force on Education Abroad investigated Americans’ knowledge of world affairs. The task force concluded: “America’s ignorance of the outside world” is so great as to constitute a threat to national security.

(When ignorance rises to the level of a national security issue, you know you have a problem.)

*Less the 25% know that Social Security system runs a surplus budget, despite the fact that the surplus is about $150 billion annually and has done so since 1983. Both Reagan and Bush the Lesser used this surplus to help hide the otherwise implausibility of their tax cuts.

*Only 10% know what radiation is.

*Want to debate stem cell research? Less than 1/3 understand the basic concept of DNA or what a cell is.

*The United States, at 98, scored the lowest on standardized IQ tests out of 22 industrialized nations surveyed. People who identified as “very liberal” scored an average of 12 points higher than those who identified as “very conservative”.


And that last one says it all.

[AnArmyVeteran]

22. If we went anong with Tancredo's poll test it would have prevented 100% of teabaggers from voting!

[KittyWampus]

23. If it was about education, Democrats could just as easily "brainwash" people. It's about fear

as another DU'er pointed out above.

It's about security and who is dominated by their reptilian brain.

[breadandwine]

35. I disagree. Fear is an emotion. The mind has the capacity to rule over the heart.

No brain, no intellect, emotion rules.

The brain has the capacity to overrule emotion.




If you have one.




Education matters.

[breadandwine]

48. It's about ignorance.

The GOP can tell people there are conspiracies and they believe it because they are ignorant of the real conspiracies on their side.

[Orsino]

25. I think that may be just one of many reasons.

It could even be thought of as a symptom. Certainly it's part of a feedback loop.

The kind of America in which those forty million could read, though, would be one in which Americans were less easy to brainwash. Presumably, there would also be more worth reading.

[GreenArrow]

28. Well, it could be -- and has been -- argued

that those who educated are more susceptible to propaganda. Here, Jacques Elull:

>>In addition to a certain living standard, another condition must be met: if man is to be successfully propagandized, he needs at least a minimum of culture. Propaganda cannot succeed where people have no trace of Western culture. We are not speaking here of intelligence; some primitive tribes are surely intelligent, but have an intelligence foreign to our concepts and customs. A base is needed — for example, education; a man who cannot read will escape most propaganda, as will a man who is not interested in reading. People used to think that learning to read evidenced human progress; they still celebrate the decline of illiteracy as a great victory; they condemn countries with a large proportion of illiterates; they think that reading is a road to freedom. All this is debatable, for the important thing is not to be able to read, but to understand what one reads, to reflect on and judge what one reads. Outside of that, reading has no meaning (and even destroys certain automatic qualities of memory and observation). But to talk about critical faculties and discernment is to talk about something far above primary education and to consider a very small minority. The vast majority of people, perhaps 90% percent, know how to read, but do not exercise their intelligence beyond this. They attribute authority and eminent value to the printed word, or, conversely, reject it altogether. As these people do not possess enough knowledge to reflect and discern, they believe — or disbelieve — in toto what they read. And as such people, moreover, will select the easiest, not the hardest, reading matter, they are precisely on the level at which the printed word can seize and convince them without opposition. They are perfectly adapted to propaganda.<<

Of course, when Elull wrote that, there was no internet, no 24 hour radio or TV, certainly no cable TV, no video games, etc. Of these, Elull writes:

>>We also must consider the fact that in a society in which propaganda — whether direct or indirect, conscious or unconscious — absorbs all the means of communication or education (as in practically all societies in 1960), propaganda forms culture and in a certain sense is culture. When film and novel, newspaper and television are instruments either of political propaganda in the restricted sense or in that of human relations (social propaganda), culture is perfectly integrated into propaganda; as a consequence, the more cultivated a man is, the more he is propagandized. Here one can also see the idealist illusion of those who hope that the mass media of communication will create a mass culture. This "culture" is merely a way of destroying a personality.<<

Education in and of itself is no proof against propaganda.

(Quotes taken from Jacques Ellul. Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes. New York: Vintage Books, 1973, excerpted here:

http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/propaganda.htm )

[breadandwine]

37. Theories are nice. Look at the real world. How many progressives go around saying "Dang!"

....

[felix_numinous]

36. Low IQ helps propaganda, and so does inability to reason for oneself.

It is a complex world, but how difficult is it to figure out that rich people are robbing the common folk yet again? Other poorer countries get it, and revolt--yet the US gets fooled over and over--and if enough people believe that it is unpatriotic to question authority, then the robbery goes on. Part of propaganda is to suspend the ability to reason, by confusing issues and rewriting the language. So not only are people getting less and less educated, but mainstream media has been rewriting history, incrementally changing what key words mean--to create a cultural amnesia. If enough people do not understand how the government is supposed to work, then it can be changed. This is being done by conservatives and diminionists--who are working to reeducate this country. I think that these religious types are the perfect serfs for the rich powerful people who want to bring back slave labor. I wish I were wrong about this, it is what I am seeing--it is like a nightmare.

Why else would a sane country allow it's citizens to become willfully ignorant, when education assures prosperity? I have wondered about this for years.

[breadandwine]

38. Hypnosis depends a lot on suppression of the intellect.

You are getting sleepier and sleepier,
sleepier and sleepier
as you watch the numbing pendulum.
And WHILE you are getting sleepier, your hand is getting lighter and lighter,
lighter and lighter
PROVING that you are ALREADY following my orders.

Now go assassinate somebody.

Stupid.

[breadandwine]

56. I think part of the problem is that a picture is not always worth a thousand words alone.

In politics you still have to put a caption under the picture.


For instance:

There was an oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

Democratic response:

That shows that we can't just let corporations do whatever they want.

GOP response:

The whole thing would never have happened if the Democrats weren't always hamstringing the creative spirit of free enterprise.


No matter what happens propaganda can put whatever spin on it is deemed desirable.

And when something happens that we think is "obvious" we say little while the GOP spins it into absurdity.


So education is important because otherwise people can be made to believe that the Moon is made of Worcestershire sauce.

[RandomThoughts]

59. People need to learn what marketing tricks are used on people also.

[ipaint]

39. Plenty of "uneducated serfs" rebelled against the elite in the late 1800s

and first third of 1900s. The difference is they had unions with leaders who put their lives on the line to organize them in numbers that made a difference.

The democratic party abandoned the low income and poor thirty plus years ago in favor of constant pandering to the middle class and unions are going the way of the dinosaur.
Public education is being ripped apart in favor of corp controlled education, still on our dime of course, by both parties.

The billionaires behind the teabaggers saw an opportunity and exploited it. The democrats facilitated the rise of the clueless by their mushy, stand for nothing, center right policies. The unions, what's left of them, are too busy cozying up to political power in order to cut their losses to understand they must organize an opposition to both corp. parties.

[Toucano]

54. +100

Excellent salient post!

[LWolf]

41. Simply remove the authoritarian standardization of public schools,

allow and encourage school choice among public schools, and fully fund the transportation necessary to do so.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

43. It's why the Repiggies are so against "elitist" education

They hate it. They want people dumb and illiterate so they can't think. Thinking people won't believe GOP bullsh!t.

[breadandwine]

44. Gingrich has his list of buzz words goopers are supposed to use, it's really a kind of Newspeak

to numb the mind and dumb down the public.

[TonyMontana]

45. He's right

They're usually just watching American Idol.

[Turborama]

61. Close, "Jersey Shore" = the highest rated television show for viewers between the ages of 18 and 30

More on this here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x560355

[Generic Brad]

46. And 50% of the population has below average intelligence

Reason is not going to appeal to that lower half with much success.

[breadandwine]

47. If Americans are undereducated, having below AVERAGE is not the whole story, since the average

itself is low.

[Fire1]

49. Ya know they never did go for all that fancy book learnin! n/t

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

50. Wow that's crazy to think that many adults are functioning

at the academic level of an 9 year old child. My oldest boy is close to that age... he's got so much more to learn.

[breadandwine]

51. The whole thing reminds me of what Hitler said in Mein Kampf ----

He said the cause of syphilis was book learning. He said that if young people were busy working instead of learning they wouldn't get venereal disease.

[breadandwine]

66. I meet people like this all the time.

Completely deluded.


"Ah heard there was swamp critters under Bama's big desk" is not much of an exaggeration.

[Rage for Order]

52. 88% literacy rate...not bad n/t

[breadandwine]

55. Here's an interesting item. Reid still losing in Nevada even after bashing Angle's brains in.

Latest CNN/Time poll has him behind by 1% even with a third party Tea Party candidate taking 5% away from Angle. And Angle's voters are more motivated to go to the polls.

Nevada is INSANE.

All these people need a major education adjustment, like a brain transplant really.

[BlueCheese]

57. That number seems off to me.

Is he saying the United States has something like a 20% illiteracy rate? Where did he get that number? Does it only measure proficiency in English and not some other language? The number simply seems way too high to me.

[breadandwine]

58. Have you lever gone door to door canvassing for Dem candidates in a hick state?

You'll meet these sorts of ignoramuses all the time.

[breadandwine]

67. You're saying that if someone can't read and write above 4th grade but he does speak some Magyar

then he's literate?


Oh groovy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. You're making an assumption that is not really warranted by facts

the assumption that better education would do something about rates of functional illiteracy (which, fun fact, is estimated to be about one in five in the UK, Canada, Australia...not JUST the US) is probably a false one. Why is it false? Simple: the bell curve. Some percentage of the population are not capable of functional literacy regardless of education. Sure, there are many instances of shocking failures of the educational system depriving children who through no fault of their own were born into poverty and condemned to a school system that does nothing for them, but that isn't all of it and doesn't explain the similar prevalence of functional illiteracy in other countries.

[breadandwine]

62. I don't buy that and it almost sounds like a genetic thingy.

"Some people are just genetically inferior, that's all."

The whole idea of education is that the software, not just the hardware, matters.

Put some knowledge into people's heads.



By the way. Some people are slow learners. Some people are better at math than English.

The solution to that is to go slow with them. If you are patient you can teach even slow learners and they will ultimately catch on.

If your goal is, welp, there is a certain preordained amount one is supposed to learn in a semester and if you didn't you stink, that is not going to work. Be patient with those who do not easily absorb a particular field and they can ultimately become proficient in it too.

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. Some people are stupid.

It's not genetic, it's not racial, but some people are ineducable. And I don't think that most people are fitted for proficiency in most things, regardless of how much education one tries to give them.

[breadandwine]

65. When stupid people don't know they're stupid ---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x505293


Still, I think it is possible to get through to people who are narrow minded and broaden their minds.

I do not think it happens overnight but I think it can happen.


And I think it depends on educating them.

[earth mom]

70. I've long thought this myself. Ask around if people you know read books

you will find that few do and it's because they can't read or they can't read very well and struggle with words they do not know the meaning of.

Every kid in this country should be made to read at least two hours a day in school and be given their own dictionary on the first day of school.

[breadandwine]

71. In the 1976 film "Network" Peter Finch says less than 3% of Americans read books

and it's probably accurate.

[breadandwine]

72. Maybe even less now.

...