The Immigration Bill!

[Joanne98]

As everybody already knows, I an against the Immigration Bill! Call it want you want, I have my own name for it.

ADAM SMITH PART TWO!

Congrats. To all the PRO-Wallstreet forces. Committed to increasing the wealth of the people AT THE TOP!

You've had a great week. Selling us out on the TRADE DEAL and now making sure we have LOT'S of hungry people to compete with for the lowly CRUMMY jobs we have left.

Get ready for a BACKLASH MOTHERFUCKERS! It ain't just coming from the right!

Have a nice greedy ass day!

[sweetladybug]

1. Joanne, I agree with you. "WE "don't have a country anymore.

This is totally bullshit!!!

[Joanne98]

3. Thankyou!

[VP505]

2. I agree and

just the fact that Bu$h supports this bill and wants it passed, STRONGLY suggests to me that its not going to be good for the middle class, especially those on the lower end of the economic scale.

[snappyturtle]

4. Of course it's not good.

All the illegals have to do is ome forward and pay a fine! What? Who would do that? And, the bigger part of the picture is what happens if they don't come forward.......more illegals will be flooding the borders now....just watch!

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. How many of them do you suppose even have the money

for the fine?

[Critters2]

41. That's the point of a fine. It's supposed to be a hardship. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. A hardship and an impossibility are 2 different things

I also wonder if they will start imposing hardships on the employers who hire the undocumented workers, or if they will continue to be allowed to appeal fines and avoid paying them?

[Critters2]

44. I don't think anything in this bill is going to be enforced--

not on workers, not on employers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. You know what's interesting?

It doesn't look like this bill makes anyone happy.

[Critters2]

48. It makes the corporations happy. And that was the point.

This is the US Chamber of Commerce's wet dream.

[High Plains]

70. They have eight years to pay the $5,000 fine.

It is doable.

If I were an undocumented worker, I'd be lining up for this.

My position on this bill is: Bienvenidos, amigos.

[High Plains]

72. Who would pay the fine?

I expect a very high compliance rate. It is a good deal for undocumented workers. Turning them into documented workers on the path to citizenship will be a good deal for all of us, especially the labor movement. And I expect a majority of them will vote Democratic.

[Bake]

82. Do you really think they're going to join the unions?

I seriously doubt it. If anything, it undercuts the union movement. And that's bad for Democrats, bad for workers, and ultimately bad for America.

Bake

[Joanne98]

5. We don't even know what's in the fine print. It's 1000 pages!

I shudder to think!

[Gold Metal Flake]

6. I'm sure this bill includes stiff penalties for the illegal employers, right?

???

[Joanne98]

9. Who know's. It's a thousand pages and....

NOBODY'S READ IT YET! The US Chamber and they're lawyers wrote it! That means NOBODY will read it.

[TahitiNut]

12. Did you say the employers are getting stiffies? Yes. I think they are.

Cheap human labor... ever cheaper... a labor force that cannot vote. Hey, I think I see a wet spot. :puke:

[Joanne98]

16. I think they should be able to vote.

IF THEY WORK THEY CAN VOTE!

[Critters2]

27. I think they should be paid a fair wage.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[Joanne98]

52. Me too. And I know this many new citizens will lower wages...

Especially mine. But if they are here anyway, they should be able to vote because they will vote Dem. I know the DLC sold us out but they couldn't have done it without the help of Big Business Republicans. If we can move the Dem party out of Wall Street and back to Main street we can pass laws to help workers and the people. That's why, if they're here anyway, I want them to vote.

[Critters2]

53. If employers are required to pay a living wage,

there will be no incentive to hire illegal workers, and many will return to their homelands. I have two parishioners whose SSNs were used by illegal immigrants, and it created nightmares for them with the IRS. I think people who commit such fraud should be either prosecuted or deported. But they should not be given a pass, no matter what party they might vote for.

A living wage will decrease demand for them. That's the way to approach this.

[pampango]

59. It might be a little risky if we Democrats take up the cause of

allowing legal aliens to vote in our elections. I see where you are coming from for political purposes, but there might be a backlash from other voters if we seem to be seeking the vote for noncitizens. (I know, I know. Damn the RW spin machine! Full speed ahead!)

[misanthrope]

65. Don't assume they will vote Dem...

...A lot of those folks are hardcore Roman Catholics who follow the anti-abortion lead.

[Joanne98]

67. That's true! I'm glad you reminded me. I've made that argument before.

In one of the numerous fights I've had with pro-immigration DUer's. I lived in LA during the 80's when we had massive immigration from all countries and I noticed that immigrates are usually SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE AND BUSINESS FRIENDLY! Fortuantly the second generation are democrats. Probably because the right keeps throwing them in jail.

[High Plains]

74. If current Hispanic voters are any indication...

...this would be a net gain for Democrats. Hispanics voted 65% Democrat in the 2000 presidential election and 56% Democrat in the 2004 presidential election.

On edit: A study from the Pew Hispanic Center http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/48.pdf
says that the 44% voting for Bush figure in 2004 is probably overstated because of sampling errors (the sample included many heavily Republican precincts from Cuban Florida). The report also notes that the previous highest Hispanic vote percentage for a Republican presidential candidate was 37% for Ronald Reagan.

[Bake]

83. Only CITIZENS can or should be allowed to vote.

Anything more and we might as well not call ourselves a sovereign nation. Do we get to vote in anybody else's elections?

Bake

[High Plains]

73. How does giving undocumented workers the same rights as...

...other workers translate into a cheaper labor force? This will strengthen labor as newly documented workers come out from the shadows and fight for their rights. And they will be able to vote in a few years. Imagine what they will do to California politics, for instance. It will be a political earthquake.

And let's remember that the economy is not a zero-sum game.

[Critters2]

32. Call me a cynic, but I sincerely doubt it.

Why would the US Chamber of Commerce want penalties for employers?

[Gold Metal Flake]

34. That the CofC wrote this is an answer to my question.

Another Amnesty. Another generation of Americans plowed under. Another generation of worker's right trampled. Another 25 years of stagnant wages. Another generation worse off than their parents. Another 25 years of the massive shift of wealth to the rich. Another generation of workers in other countries forced to emigrate because their governments would rather tham leave than respond to their needs. Another generation of those corrupt governments getting paid off by the multinationals who are so wealthy they exist without the need of countries.

Add your own.

[Babel_17]

60. Good post (nt)

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I doubt it.

[musette_sf]

66. i think you forgot your Sarcasm smiley n/t

[Gold Metal Flake]

91. I always do, but your sarcasm detector is working correctly.

I think we have some work to do.

[Joanne98]

7. I thank everybody who's posted to this thread!

Don't be afraid of being called a racist. This is not about race, it's about class and the workers are taking a big hit!

[Gold Metal Flake]

30. A new labor movement in this country will re-energize the Democratic Party.

A new middle class to replace the one destoyed by the Bushpublicans and the Corporatists.

[Joanne98]

69. We have to get rid of the DLC first! Traitor bastards!

[Gold Metal Flake]

93. Rather, I believe these efforts must occur concurrently.

We can multitask.

[Megahurtz]

8. Totally Agreed. We Are Screwed.

Once again! :grr:

[Joanne98]

11. That's right. We vote for a change and we get this.

THE WALL STREET AGENDA!

[Rosemary2205]

31. You aren't screwed by illegal hispanics.

When slaves were freed it was "OMG if we have to PAY them we're screwn"
When the Irish came it was "OMG all these uneducated low level workers F'ing up this great country of ours, we are screwn"
When the Poles came it was "OMG all these uneducated low level workers F'ing up this great country of ours, we are screwn".

Don't blame the problems in this country on the hispanics and don't punish them. They didn't do a damn thing to me or you or anyone else. We are all in the same boat -- just a bunch of hungry people trying to get by the best we can in this life.

[Critters2]

33. Nowhere in the post you've responded to are hispanics mentioned.

Please don't play the xenophobia card.

[TahitiNut]

36. In fact, the word "Hispanic," "Latino," or "Mexican" was never used until that post.

Not once. Nor has there been a single mention of or reference to ethicity ... until that post.

Funny about that. :puke:

[Rosemary2205]

37. Clarification.............

You know what, I like you Tahiti, I really do. But do you really believe for one second the person I responded to is all upset because they think illegal europeans or chinese or even Canadians are taking his/her job and driving down his/her wages. If I'm wrong and the poster was thinking something else then my apologies to them - it will surprise me because 99.999% of the time, people complaining about "the immigrants" are thinking "mexican". And regardless of WHO they are thinking about, the fact remains is THE IMMIGRANTS are not the "bad guys" here. It's big corp exploiting workers all around the globe. Unless I read it wrong, seems the person I responded to is BLAMING immigrants for lower wages -- which is just wrong. IMHO.

[TahitiNut]

38. It's irrelevant. The problem of "illegal aliens" (the legal term) is real and has nothing to do with

... race or ethnicity. I have seen ten to one-hundred times as much reference to "Mexicans" or "Hispanic" on the part of amnesty or open-borders advocates as I have from those advocating enforcement. Indeed, it was not those who advocate enforcement who marched in protest the time before last carrying the Mexican flags. It is a matter of fact that approximately 80% of the 12-to-20 million illegal aliens currently present in the U.S. are citizens of Mexico. It is a matter of fact that elected officials of the government of Mexico have lobbied on behalf of the free-flow of their citizens across the border in the U.S. It is a matter of fact that 1/6th of the citizens of Mexico currently reside in the U.S. - orders of magnitude greater than any other expatriate population on the entire planet.

We must also acknowledge that it's the National Council of La Raza that's most vocal on behalf of amnesty and/or (one-way!) open-borders, not the Sons of Norway or Polish-American Clubs. By far, it's openly ethnic organizations voicing advocacy ... but race/ethnicity is STILL irrelevant! If anything, the racism in the home countries exacerbates the economic inequities. Mexico is notoriously racist in its internal policies and social 'norms.' Racism is a major problem of its own - exacerbating the impoverishment of human beings for the benefit of the wealthy and powerful in countries all over the globe. That impoverishment is what the exploiters feed upon and profit from.

At the same time, it's a matter of fact that this is irrelevant to the nature of the problem. It can, however, be relevant to part of the solution if that solution incorporates a foreign policy of exerting massive pressure on the governments of Mexico and other home nations to enact major economic and education reforms that lead to far greater and more equitable economic opportunity for their citizens in their home countries.

When one attacks alleged motivations of one's opponent in an argument, it's an ad hominem fallacy. When that attack is the debasement of that opponent, it's called an ad hominem abusive fallacy. It's an intellectually bankrupt and ethically questionable tactic - one favored by such people as Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. It is disturbing, to say the least, to see the prevalence of such attacks on DU. Why? Because it's a red herring. Such a focus keeps the perpetrators of class division (divide and conquer) safe from examination.

The constant hue-and-cry of 'racism' not only precludes any honest and rational discussion of the problem of exploitation of cheap human labor, it almost guarantees that any 'solution' serves those doing the exploitation and NOT the human beings affected and exploited.



Oh ... and FWIW ... I have first hand experience with people using "work visas" from Canada and Germany working for a somewhat lower salary while well-qualified American citizens went unemployed in Silicon Valley. Two of my best friends were Canadians under such visas - and, as a manager of a technical support group, I had three of nine people working for me under such visas: one from Romania, one from Germany, and one from England. There was no question that they remained employed while citizens with comparable skills and experience went unemployed. (There was also NO QUESTION that they were paid less - I was the manager and had access not only to their salary information but also their performance review history!) As a matter of fact, I became one of the unemployed (in large part because I refused to scapegoat a lesbian engineer). Since I was qualified to be the manager of that group, it SHOULD be unarguable that I was qualified for such a position. I held them no ill will as human beings. I CERTAINLY had ill will towards the practices of that company, however - bigots and exploiters of cheap(er) human labor! Big time!

[Rosemary2205]

50. Thanks for the reply

I am not as eloquent as I wish I was. Quite honestly, my post was not read by others in the manner than I intended it. It seems everyone reading my post thinks "I" am blaming "brown people" for our lot in life. Which could not be farther from the truth.

Actually the whole point of my post was to pretty much say the same thing you are saying..... I just mangled it.......obviously.

[High Plains]

79. IGNORE--DUPE

According to Pew Hispanic Center
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0603/charts.immigration/frameset.exclude.html?eref=yahoo

56% of illegal immigrants are from Mexico
22% from other Latin American countries
13% from Asia
6% from Europe and Canada
3% from Africa

I also think it is silly to deny that there is an element of xenophobia or racism at play on this issue. Which is not to say that non-xenophobic non-racists may not like this bill, but pretending that element isn't at play is hiding one's head in the sand.

[High Plains]

80. IGNORE--DUPE

According to Pew Hispanic Center
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0603/charts.immigration/frameset.exclude.html?eref=yahoo

56% of illegal immigrants are from Mexico
22% from other Latin American countries
13% from Asia
6% from Europe and Canada
3% from Africa

I also think it is silly to deny that there is an element of xenophobia or racism at play on this issue. Which is not to say that non-xenophobic non-racists may not like this bill, but pretending that element isn't at play is hiding one's head in the sand.

[High Plains]

81. Your facts are wrong.

According to Pew Hispanic Center
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0603/charts.immigration/frameset.exclude.html?eref=yahoo

56% of illegal immigrants are from Mexico
22% from other Latin American countries
13% from Asia
6% from Europe and Canada
3% from Africa

I also think it is silly to deny that there is an element of xenophobia or racism at play on this issue. Which is not to say that non-xenophobic non-racists may not like this bill, but pretending that element isn't at play is hiding one's head in the sand.

[TahitiNut]

86. An estimate of 78% Latino among the 'illegal aliens'

I misspoke in saying they're from Mexico. Sorry.

I have NEVER contended that racism and xenophobia weren't "at play" in this issue. What I repeatedly point out is that it's IRRELEVANT to the discussion regarding formulation of an immigration policy and enforcement of immigration laws!!!! It's IRRELEVANT on BOTH 'sides' of such a discussion. It's used to bludgeon, not discuss.

Indeed, I've pointed out repeatedly that it's a whole truckload of red herrings introduced that has the sole effect of dividing people and permitting the exploitation of cheap labor and impoverished people. It's clearly "at play" in countries where racism is perpetuated from their colonial past into their banana republican present ... where people with indigenous roots are denied both economic and political equity!!

[Critters2]

40. Yeah, it's always interesting to see who REALLY raises

the "brown people" meme.

[Joanne98]

68. I'm getting screwed by BIG BUSINESS! I know who's screwing me.

And they going to pay for it. I'm a left-wing populist. And my numbers are growing. I have a whole plan on what to do about them. For everything. The trade deals, globalization, privatizing and blocking the increase in the minumum wage. And don't even get my started on healthcare. They way I figure it, all I have to do is get turn 20% of the conservative voter dumbasses in socialists and I have it made. The "investor class' can go straight to HELL!

[Critters2]

10. It's time to stand up for the workers, to protect wages and workers rights

actually, it's past time.

Congrats to the US Chamber of Commerce, Tyson Foods, Smithfield IBP and the other corporations who own "our" Senators!

[Joanne98]

13. Don't forget Big Pharma. They have SEVEN lobbyist per Senator!

WHORES!

[TahitiNut]

14. Open the border to CHEAP human labor, not CHEAP drugs.

Funny how that works, huh? :puke:

[Joanne98]

15. OH YEAH! I' m glad you brought that up!

Don't let those CHEAP DRUGS in here. It will wreak the country!

[TahitiNut]

18. Clearly, profteering is the only 'principle' at work.

Profiteering from the suffering of human beings. Profiteering from the impoverishment of human beings.


And the federal minimum wage increase has STILL not been enacted!!!!

[Joanne98]

20. Thankyou so much TahitiNut. That's a really good point.

Maybe that's ON PURPOSE!

[AzDar]

17. EVERYTHING proffered by this Administration has been a disaster

for Middle-Class Americans.
Why would this charlie-foxtrot be any different?
I'm convinced that George W. Bush is not just a forkin' moron...he's trying to destroy this nation.

Edited to add: Anyone else utterly disgusted by our Democratic majority lately?

[Joanne98]

19. But what about the Dems? DEMS from OHIO DID NOT GET ELECTED

To put more pressure on their workers. This will NOT go down' in a state that has lost more jobs then any other. The DLC works for Wallstreet.

[PsN2Wind]

26. We Arizonans, I believe,

Have a much better idea than many of the PollyAnnas how this will affect the country, since we bear a disproportionate share of the burden of the illegals here now.

[Joanne98]

21. KICK!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

Please keep this kicked. I have to get up a 4:30 to save my jobs from SLAVES!

[PsN2Wind]

22. I've said before that importing labor

has a greater cost to the citizens of this country than exporting jobs. Those of us in Arizona probably have a little better grasp of the costs associated with the medication, education and incarceration of those in this country now. Bring in their families for "family reunification" and the costs will skyrocket.

[Joanne98]

23. Yep. It's time to TAX THE RICH to pay for it..

Maybe we can get the conservatives on board this time!

[Joanne98]

24. KICK

[Kansas Wyatt]

25. Game Over...

This is absolute proof that Corporate America owns and directs the Democrats too. The American Worker is about to be officially stripped (not even a token effort anymore) of any representation in our Corporate Government.

Yet again, the Democratic Party will be wondering why working people stop voting for them.

[Joanne98]

28. Exactly! It's right out in the open.

[Gold Metal Flake]

29. "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

Published on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"
by Thom Hartmann

Read the whole article at:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm


Yet it's almost never mentioned in the mainstream media, because to point it out could slightly reduce the profits and CEO salaries of many of America's largest multi-state and multinational corporations - who both own the media and contribute heavily to conservative politicians. Republicans would prefer that the "criminals" covered in the press are working people, and that corporate and CEO criminals not get discussed.

snip

Non-citizens didn't have access to the non-agricultural US job market, in large part because of the power of US labor unions (before Reagan 25% of the workforce was unionized; today the private workforce is about 7% unionized), and because companies were unwilling to risk having non-tax-deductible labor expenses on their books by hiring undocumented workers without valid Social Security numbers.

But Reagan put an end to that. His 1986 amnesty program, combined with his aggressive war on organized labor (begun in 1981), in effect told both employers and non-citizens that there would be few penalties and many rewards to increasing the US labor pool (and thus driving down wages) with undocumented immigrants. A million people a year continued to come across our southern border, but they stopped returning to Latin America every fall because instead of seasonal work they were able to find permanent jobs.

The magnet drawing them? Illegal Employers.

[AzDar]

35. Kick!! n/t

:kick:

[gravity]

45. What about the immigrants who come to live a better life in this country

There isn't a fundamental right that says that Americans deserve better opportunities than people from other countries. Protectionists policies could just be viewed as just being greedy, taking away opportunities from immigrants.

I don't know what to do for sure over the immigration issue because it is a complicated issue, which we decide whose wellbeing is better off at the expense of the other's.

[Critters2]

49. I want everyone in this country paid a living wage.

Everyone--regardless of immigration status, ethnicity, etc.

I don't understand those who advocate for the underpayment of labor. Requiring corporations to pay a living wage and follow safety regs would solve this problem.

[TahitiNut]

92. Anyone whose job is dependent upon the "good graces" of an employer ...

... who violates OSHA or FLSA, or gets kickbacks under the table (the one impeachment is off of?), is subject to coercion. When that person is also not enfranchised to vote and fully participate in the political process, they're not inclined to rock the boat. It's difficult enough for a citizen to gain a forum against an employer in a wrongful termination ... it's an enormous obstacle to a foreign worker, whether 'illegal' or a 'guest worker.' IMHO, both are inherently corrupt exploitation of human beings for their labors.

Enforcement of our laws and regulations is largely a matter of popular will and - especially for civil torts(!!) - cannot be reliably enforced without people willing to either file a complaint or file a suit.

Thus, we have an underclass of labor - including people who proclaim no intention to immigrate!! Indeed, the various classes of "work visa" even include the disclaimer "non-immigrant" in their codification. We must constantly remember that an immigrant is not automatically able to vote. Indeed, going from "green card" to naturalized can be difficult for many.

[sadiesworld]

51. Our political representatives should, first and foremost, be

responsive to the PEOPLE THEY REPRESENT! Truly, this shouldn't be a difficult concept. I would certainly agree to a proposal whereby anyone who wants to forfeit his/her own job to an immigrant could do so.

[Critters2]

55. Interesting thought. Those who feel they NEED to be here

should be free to forfeit his/her job to them. That seems fair.

[Zookeeper]

54. Why do immigrants who are here illegally deserve....

to compete for jobs with legal immigrants who sat for years in refugee camps waiting to get here?

Everyone wants a better life.

[Critters2]

57. Exactly.

I have another parishioner who jumped through all the INS hoops--and there were many of them--to come here from the Philippines and become a citizen. If he could do it, others can as well.

[Sapere aude]

56. I'm afraid that what could happen is a backlash against this bill, then a push to

enforce laws against employers hiring illegals. There could well be a reverse migration back to Mexico and it will be a dark day in the history of this country.

I don't know the words to put to it but there will be an unacknowledged shame that will be part of the American history from then on.

[Critters2]

58. You're AGAINST enforcement of laws against

employers hiring illegal workers?!! There's nothing wrong with reverse migration to Mexico. Pressure on the Mexican government might be what's needed to bring about reform. The MOST important thing that needs to happen is enforcement of employer sanctions!

[pampango]

62. There are many here who consider enforcing the law against

American employers who hire illegal immigrants a more "compassionate" approach than that of "border security" and raids to arrest illegal workers which are directed at the immigrants themselves. Of course, the end result of either tactic, if done effectively, is the same: the disappearance of the immigrants from our landscape.

I agree that a massive reverse migration of any ethnic group, Hispanics, Blacks, Irish, or Italians would be an embarrassment or worse for our country. There may be a very good reason for such a migration but the images would be ugly. You should remember, though, these immigrants are not American citizens and, therefore, not worth as much in the eyes of true progressives. ;)

[Zookeeper]

71. Why would it be a disappearance of immigrants?

It would only affect immigrants who are here illegally, without having gone through the same hoops as legal immigrants. Trust me, we have lots and lots of legal immigrants in MN, who would only benefit from having less competition for jobs. And they aren't going anywhere.

Not all of the U.S. has the same history or culture as the Southwest. There really is no reason to give preference here to Mexican citizens who are here illegally over immigrants who have come from life-threatening situations and waited in refugee camps for the opportunity to become American citizens.

[Sapere aude]

77. They won't disappear. They will go underground even more.

[pampango]

88. You are right. I should have been clearer in stating that it would

mean the disappearance of illegal immigrants, not all immigrants.

[High Plains]

76. Huh?

I don't know too many "true progressives" who would consider immigrants "not worth as much" as American citizens. That sounds more like a reactionary nativist to me.

[pampango]

90. That may be a crass way to put it, but if you read these immigration

boards for long you will see a theme that the benefits that may accrue to the "illegals" and their families from their work here is not as important to many as the hardships that are inflicted on American workers in terms of jobs taken and wages lowered.

If you reply with some statement that all people have equal value, or something to that effect, you will quickly be accused of not having sufficient loyalty to the American worker and sympathy for his/her plight in today's global economy. ("We have to take care of our own first. ")

[gravity]

75. There is already a black market for labor

trying to punish employers might just be as effective as the war on drugs.

There is also the economic impact of just removing 12 million workers from our population. Many industries will suffer because of it, and many goods are going to be more expensive as a result

[NorthernSpy]

96. you're actually AFRAID that if we enforce the law, illegals might peaceably repatriate themselves?

And that's what counts as a "dark day" in American history?


:eyes:

Unbelievable.

[stillcool]

47. and round, and round it goes..

:kick:

[Norquist Nemesis]

61. The people getting "Amnesty" on this is the businesses

Everytime I hear someone proclaiming it's 'amesty', it just seems to me that it's the businesses who have been hiring illegals that are getting off scot free. Where's their penalties? If/when an illegal alien comes forth into the process, what happens to the people who have been paying him/her??? Nothing! No back taxes for them, no penalties, nothing! Zip! Nada! And the fact is, they have been providing a means for illegal immigrants to remain in country. :banghead:

[Critters2]

63. Tell your congresscritters. I have. I've made it clear that

there need to be sanctions for employers. Congress works for us, not the Chamber of Commerce!

[Norquist Nemesis]

64. MY congresscritter is a Con in a very safe district

Her responses are, "Thank you for your concern. I'll keep representing the concerns of the District." (Biggert R IL-13) Ugh!

We're making progress around here, but I'm not sure I'll see it come to fruition in my lifetime. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. DING, DING, DING, DING, we've got a winner

[jdiggity]

78. I'm probably completely off track here

And if i am, please correct me, because I have not had time to read the bill itself yet, nor the undoubtedly vey fine print included. My understanding of the bill is that it will not immediately recognize illegal immigrants as American citizens (Amnesty), but will require them to identify themselves upon which they will be fined and put into the "back of the line" so to speak in terms of gaining citizenship. Requirements involving the assimilation of them into our culture will also be included, and to enforce this whole thing, the bill includes punishments to the employers who hire illegal immigrants and don't report them.

I hate to state an opinion on it yet, since i'm not sure if I have a handle on it. Is this correct? Anything else that's important about this bill?

Thanks

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. How many times do I have to explain to people who

have not read Adam Smith, I have, that this is NOT capitalism but monopoly

Adam Smith was AGAINST these kinds of policies

In fact, if he were alive today, he'd stand side by side with you against it.

Sheesh, the difference between monopolistic corporatist policies, aided and abetted by the government (Otherwise known as fascism) and free trade small yeaoman run Smithsian capitalism is important

For one... Smith believed in trade fees between nations and PROTECTING local producers from predatory practices like oh cheap labor

[bamacrat]

87. Never before in the history of the world has a country...

been invaded illegaly by foriegn people and the people who already are there just have to deal with the fact that there are a whole bunch of people who won't speak our language, hold on to their native customs and... oh wait didnt us whiteys do that. But seriously We cant round up all 12 million illegals and ship them back. The honest hard workers who want to better themselves and their families should be given a chance to declare allegance to America and learn english, and then become tax paying citizens. The ones that continually commit crimes should have a one strike policy, arrested once and it back to Mexico. Might be a bit harsh but a country has the right to uphold its customs and laws.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Ahem, Rome

[bamacrat]

94. True, I meant to add that.

But that is what caused the Empire to fall, to many anti and non Romans coming in and an overstretched militaty. Again like us.

[NorthernSpy]

95. it's always "jam tomorrow" when it comes to enforcing our immigration laws...

In the 1980s, there was an amnesty for illegal aliens. The amnesty legalized about 1.2 million people. But that was to be the last. From then on, we were going to enforce our laws, and never tolerate such a situation again.

Now, twenty years later, we're talking about offering a de facto amnesty to over 12 million illegals. After that, you understand, we'll really start enforcing our laws and we'll no longer tolerate the presence of an illegal population within our borders...

:eyes:


Why should we believe this shit? If our government still isn't willing to keep its earlier promises of enforcement, then why should we think they ever will? When it comes to enforcing our immigration laws, it's always jam tomorrow, never jam today.