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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:00 AM
Original message
A cultural civil war?
Edited on Mon Sep-06-10 12:05 AM by proud2BlibKansan
My husband has a group of friends from college who have stayed in touch off and on for 40 years now. One of them, Gary, bought some land in the country and built a small house there and uses it for a weekend getaway spot. A few years ago Gary started inviting his college friends to his farm a couple times a year. The guys fish and do guy stuff and the girls cook and sit around and visit. Very relaxing, down time with friends in the country. Some of us camp and some stay at a hotel in a town 5 miles down the road from the farm. We have gathered fairly regularly, on Memorial Day, Labor Day and another weekend in the winter.

In the spring of 09, a member of the group no one had heard from in decades, Don, got back in touch and Gary invited him to join us on Memorial Day weekend. So Don and his wife Peggy, who live a 10 hour drive away, came to the farm to reunite with Don's old friends. They pulled up driving a huge RV and towing two dirt bikes. Don and Peggy spent the weekend riding their dirt bikes all over the farm. Peggy is Don's third wife, they have no children and spend lots of time traveling to romantic and exciting places where they have taken their dirt bikes - and oh what a wonderful life they had.

The last night we were there, we were sitting around talking and laughing. Many in the group had drank more than a few beers, including Don. I don't remember now who it was, but someone brought up Obama and Don made it clear that he couldn't stand him. By this time in the weekend, I was sick of hearing all about what a successful businessman he was and how he had so much money to buy toys I would never want, so I was ignoring Don. But my ears perked up when he started talking about Obama and what a "horrible president" he was. He was born in Kenya, had no experience, all the crap you have all heard over and over from the idiots on the right. Oh and Don had been going to tea party events in his home state and his eyes had been opened!

As soon as Don started railing on Obama, my husband gave me a look and I decided I could very easily open my mouth and ruin his weekend with his friends by ripping Don a new asshole (what can I say - I have a mouth) so I just sat there and didn't say anything. One of the other wives looked over at me and I just smiled, knowing she was as repulsed as I was.

I know everyone else in the group very well. Have known most of them for about 35 years. They really aren't very political but have always seemed pretty liberal to me. So I was interested in how they would receive Don's right wing bullshit. The wife who had looked over at me had been drinking most of the day and she finally stood up and let Don have it. It was actually a thing of beauty. And Don and Peggy ended up slinking back to their RV and slipping away early the next morning without saying goodbye.

At breakfast that morning, everyone agreed that Don had stepped over a line and deserved to be told off. But we all felt bad that he had left without saying goodbye.

A few weeks before Labor Day last year, Don called Gary and asked if we were getting together for the holiday and Gary said yes. He also told Don he thought we would all have a better time if we didn't have any political discussions. So that Labor Day weekend, Don showed up without Peggy and without the RV but in a big truck that had two 'NOBAMA' bumper stickers on it. But he never brought up anything about Obama and just made small talk all weekend.

Shortly after that weekend (just exactly a year ago) Don started sending emails to Gary and a few others in the group. He never did include my husband in his emails, and we aren't really sure why. Hubby of course considers this a blessing. :) But all of this info on the emails I am relating second hand; I never got to see any of them.

Gary had given Don his work email address. I'm not sure if Gary doesn't have a personal email account, I just know he was receiving Don's emails at work. And the emails were more of the same right wing crap. Most of them were the stupid chain emails that we have all seen so I won't detail them. But over the next 6 months or so, they got worse and worse. At one point Don started including some of his wingnut friends in the emails and the friends in our group started having email discussions with Don's wingnut friends. And of course those kinds of email discussions never end well.

Eventually Gary asked Don to stop emailing him at work. Don didn't stop so Gary called him. Don said he thought they were just having fun. A few days later, Don sent the group an email that said he wished Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi were dead. That was when everyone in the group who had been receiving these emails finally blocked Don's email address. And no one heard from him for 6 months.

Then a few weeks ago, Don called Gary and left a message asking if we were having a Labor Day gathering. Gary did not return the call. Don called back again and Gary didn't return that call either.

When we arrived at the farm on Friday night, we noticed a much smaller group than before. Gary's wife told me they had received polite calls from most of our other friends offering excuses why they weren't coming but one couple had been honest and said they just didn't want to spend another weekend with Don so they were not coming to the farm.

There were only 6 of us this weekend and we ended up having great conversations about politics and life experiences that had shaped our own views. And of course, we were all more than a bit happy that Don had not shown up.

Last night, one of the guys said his sister had mentioned a year or so ago that she thought the battle between the left and the right in America had escalated into a cultural civil war. He said he told her she was exaggerating, but after this whole episode with Don he thinks she is right. He also said he never liked Bush so he can relate to Don's unhappiness but the crap about Michelle Obama was just way over the top. I said I knew lots of people who despised George Bush but no one who wanted him dead; we wanted him alive and tried for war crimes.

It all seems so damn sad to me. A group of people who admittedly aren't very political and also admittedly haven't paid much attention to the changing political landscape in the country, is torn apart by a lunatic wingnut. And I do believe we are in the midst of a cultural civil war that has escalated greatly in the past 18 months. I just hope it ends well but I'm not sure it will.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nice post...
I agree that there seems to be a cultural civil war and it is escalating.

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StreetKnowledge Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree fully.
And to ultimately save our side, we have to become everything we hate, because otherwise they'll destroy us. If that had been me in that situation, I'd have very loudly told him off. No more nice guys, we cannot afford not to start fighting very loudly, very publicly.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think you are right and I should have spoken up
I've had 15 months to think about it and believe I should have said something. But my friend did do a great job and didn't need my help.

I'm also married to a wonderful man who just doesn't like talking politics and the resulting arguments. And this was his weekend with his old friends. I think I made the right choice a the time :)
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. It is explained in many places.
By having different media in different places, people fight over things that the establishment does not care about, while they steal from the workers.

It is quoted in this clip. It was said 100 years ago, it is still done today.

Secret of Oz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D22TlYA8F2E


It is an interesting clip, however it has a bias.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well said.
My family is in the midst of a "war" of this sort. I'm being shunned for telling my sister and her husband to stop sending me their RW crap. There's no middle ground. We had gotten by for years by not talking politics but Palin ignited something in my sister. I'm dying to ask her how she likes her socialized medicine now that she's on medicare. Maybe I will some day.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The interesting thing about Palin that came up
We all agreed that her presence on McCain's ticket had motivated lots of Obama voters in 08. One of our friends said his parents were GOP but they had voted for a Democrat for the first time ever, because Palin was on the opposing team.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Great post. I do think things are escalating, but I think they've been "simmering" for 25 years +.
People like Don have interrupted many a good gathering over the past 20 years. Luckily, most of the "Dons" I've come across are not socially unaware enough to push e-mails like that, and, while they may make disgusting comments, they don't go on and on. They're able to see that they're being redirected by others, and keep their mouths shut. Perhaps they'd be different in 2010, however. I don't know.
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. there sure is a civil war
If there is a brainwashed RWer in a group, they usually feel compelled to turn the gathering into their own audience to espouse their beliefs. Have seen it too often. In groups they end up destroying the goodwill of the social gathering.
These people are seething with anger most of the time. They do not care that others do not want to listen and end up bullying the group.
This poison inflicted upon our society by the likes of Beck and Limbaugh is destroying the social fabric of this country.

Personally, I regard that type of behavior as abusive.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
9. It is a cultural civil war which I also believe to be part of
the class warfare that has been going on for a very long time.

It is part of the divide and conquer tactics that comes under the heading of keeping the rabble (that would be us) misdirected and arguing amongst themselves over social issues or invented diversions, those with the power and money will be able to enrich themselves further.

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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you, so well told.
Yes, a slow-burn civil war. It just goes on and on. Win the war, loose the peace, 150 years after.

I can't begin to count the number of friends and acquaintances who mark Thanksgiving as the last time they saw some part of their family. Of all the untold stories of the 1960's civil rights/Vietnam War era, I think a minor one should be how it split so many white families. It's trivial, I know, compared to the public violence and first-hand hatred, but what these fights lacked at that level they made up for in longevity; they never get resolved. So much for Norman Rockwell.

So how can we keep our tolerance but draw the line or somehow resolve it? Don't know, and an hour's worth of staring at this monitor hasn't brought any happy thoughts about how it might turn out.
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Dan Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Very interesting,
There is a story here that needs to be shared! Those of us that fought in the 'wars' of the 1960s' were aware how the Vietnam conflict tore families apart... but until this post, it never occurred to me how much the civil rights conflict tore white families apart. To me, on the other side of this color line, it was an issue to address a historical wrong. The violence, the 'jim crow-ism' was something that had just reached a limit. Within our town, our family, we just knew that 'Whites' controlled and exercised power - which effectively limited our rights, choices, and opportunities.

BUT

It never really occurred to me, how much this battle would have torn apart White families. Sadly, in those times, we knew that there were some good White people, but we also knew that there were a lot of bad White people - who were doing everything they could to maintain things as they had always been. I say 'a lot of bad' because from out viewpoint, those are the ones that we encountered.

It a story that should be told, because we were so busy fighting the fight, that we were not aware of the hurt that occurred within your families.

My thoughts only...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. OK, I'll tell it in another post
The more I sit thinking about it, the tougher it gets to write it and the more it brings back the really bad feelings of those days. It's late here, but I promise you I will. Right now it just all seems more sad than righteous.

I think it mattered a lot exactly how old you were when things happened. Some were old enough to participate, some just weren't. A few years seemed to make a big difference. For me, (born in 1951, in the midwest) those guys at Greensboro were a puzzle, but even a kid just learning to read a newspaper knows a bully when he sees one, and every kid in town knew what a treat it was to eat a hamburger at a Woolworth's lunch counter.

Every time something happened, when you learned about it, read about it, it was a private moment and you knew where you stood. Before long, as I've heard so many people say, they had their our own private heroes, then maybe shared with a best friend, or not, but heroes who were brave, righteous. I remember mine was Medgar Evars, and I have no idea why it was him and not someone else.

But when you talked about it with friends or family, as only kids can do when they get excited, you didn't always get the reaction you expected. You might say, euphemistically, that the adults or some other kids didn't always share your enthusiasm. So then the splits would start. Kids learn pretty fast which other kids or adults to trust, which other kids can be friends, which ones to avoid, and when to keep your mouth shut. Along the way we got more sophisticated in our understanding, learned the history and followed the news. Somehow...I don't know, somehow it got into our heads and we followed every move.

I tell you Dan, it was a good time to eavesdrop on "grown-up" conversation. The card parties would get heated, you knew they were taking about civil-rights, something in Arkansas, then there would be an awkward silence and and a neighbor or two would leave and not be around for the next time. Your little mind could go all week trying to figure out what the hell had happened. I asked my Dad once about why we never got together with one family in particular, one that I thought was "cool" and he explained in a clumsy, fatherly, hand-on-the-shoulder sort of way that "they had too much, and didn't appreciate some people well enough". It took forever to figure out what he meant by that. My mom had a favorite uncle who quit visiting, and when I asked about him I was told he didn't like the beer we had in the house and he had complained. I didn't find out until I was an adult and my mom was dying the real reason -which was that in the 1920's he had been a klansman and would spout off at times. I guess I have to come to terms with that one myself.

So, as you say, by 1968 or 1969, that whole way of looking at the world was tangled up in the Vietnam War, but race was always at the heart of it. I think '68 was the year when it started splitting families, and it was the riots and assassinations that had raised the stakes, not the war. War mattered, but hell, hair mattered, music mattered. But I don't know that the Iraq war has split many families and nobody ever split a family over a pop-tune.

Oh yea, I almost forgot about Fred. He was a family friend who thought it was funny to drive the visiting and just arrived out-of-towners(that's me, by the window with those wide white eyes) from LAX through Watts on the night of the 12th, the second night, minutes before the main riots started. Right by the that soon-to-be-burning supermarket. Oh, Fred? Nobody ever saw him again.

Anyway, long-winded and running out of gas here. High schools split. You could have picked any high school and written the news for the next forty years. The neighborhoods split when we brought home black friends. College years some friends would be around over the holidays, and would stay for summer school. Ask them why no holiday at home and it was often the arguments at Thanskgiving. They could argue about the war, often in detail, but race would end in a walk-out. As far as I know, some never went back. Others, like my best friend of those days, would keep contact with his father, but it was never right.

The real clincher was inter-racial dating. It seems like that one could be unforgivable -either complete acceptance or a complete break. It didn't just split off a person or two, it really split them in half. It happened in my ex-wife's family, at Thanksgiving, and it lasted to the end.

Anyway, it didn't always end in a split. My father split with a sister but tolerated his brother, a jokey racist and yellow-dog democrat, right to the end, It hurt everyone whenever he spoke like that, but however many times he was shot down, it didn't matter. It's no consolation to know that his surviving family is just all fucked up.

Woah, a few? glasses of wine and I got farther that I thought I could. I still owe you a finished post with some detail though and I really want to hear much more about your time on your side of the line.

An afterthought -It wasn't the fight that caused the hurt -emphatically, it wasn't. Hear me on that one. Your fight gave us the heroes to fight the fight we needed. The poison was already there, long there. Maybe if there's another hidden story in this, it's that those same bastards prey on white people as well, and that sooner or later we have to free ourselves from their venom too.


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Dan Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. thanks,
One day, we shall share tales...

I can tell you, on our side - we were not divided about the issue of Civil Rights...

My grandmother rented rooms for out-of-town visitors - in those days, there were no accommodations for those on the 'wrong side' of the color line. So, it was quite common that Black families rented to out-of-towner's. And, while sharing dinner or after dinner - the conversations would turn to the events taking place in the various southern locales. We would hear on television about the news events that made the mass media news, and hear the oral history of the bodies and souls that would never be found.

We are of the same age group...

Vietnam, well that was a shared hell - that we all had to pay.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. Great post. n/t
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gophates Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. RWers always spoil the party.
Normally, zero tolerance is horsecrap, but it's time for zero tolerance when it comes to RWers. I will not tolerate them. And I will counter them if they spew their crap in my presence. And if they dare raise their voices or become hateful and abusive, I bury my boot in their keesters.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. The tea par tiers see themselves in this capacity
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. They really do
They act as if they are the only ones who have this knowledge that our country is fucked up and this black man in the White House is the reason. And they are on a mission to educate the rest of us.

I've told a few of them that we can agree there is a problem. It's the reason and the solution that we disagree about. But yes, we can agree this country is fucked up.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. I agree that we're in the midst of a cultural civil war....

with vastly different worldviews and how we choose to BE in this world.

Very sad. :(

You shared the story very well. Thanks for doing so!

K&R

:hi:

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
15. I see the cultural war too - very clear down here in Texas.
It is extremely frustrating because the division only helps those with something to lose (the very wealthy) - so of course they are the ones funding the "tea parties" and the like to encourage that sort of bickering. They can't afford to have us actually talk about economics and band together against them. There are many more of us than them.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I don't know that I agree there are more of them
They are just louder. And they have the media's attention.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You misunderstood my message -
I meant that there are more workers than owners. Workers include both us and tea-baggers. It is hard to see that we're on the same side but we are on economics (even though they are often too stupid to realize it, which is a different frustration).
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. A recent personal anecdote illustrates this TBF.........
There's a VERY nice lady at work who considers herself "conservative". We haven't really argued much (I mentioned one day that I was a socialist), just stayed away from political things.

Anyway, the other day something economic was brought up and I was feeling frisky, so I threw out a couple of ideas about the SBA and FHA making DIRECT loans to small businesses and to consumers WITHOUT PRIVATE BANKS BEING INVOLVED. This is a pretty serious "socialist" position and I was prepared for some pretty solid blowback. It never happened. She all but agreed with me.

That told me one VERY important thing. This lady considered herself "conservative" SOLELY because of her beliefs on cultural issues, NOT economic ones. Economically, we're going to have a lot in common with a lot of people who consider themselves "conservative".

Now, I don't know what the full answer is because the cultural issues ARE important to socialists too. After all, we were the original "liberationists" for women, people of color, gays, etc. But it does show that common ground CAN be had on economic issues at least occasionally.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. That's why it's so important to keep political discussions focused
on economics. My crazy MIL and I had a discussion about how bad it is for average people right now. She talked about her volunteer work at the Salvation Army and seeing families living in their cars. I talked about the need for jobs (obviously), extending unemployment, and education (job re-training etc...). We had a perfectly nice conversation and agreed on many points.

Of course then she wanted to talk about the Mosque in NYC so I had to change the subject :)
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. The division has been there since the real Civil War.
Obama's election just exacerbated it.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am not seeing anything there that looks like war
perhaps a war of words. When it comes to a war of words though, our side is not reluctant to engage or even draw first blood.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. It never went completely away since the 60's.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. My money is on a real Civil War led by T-nutters, backed by Religo Repubs.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. The emotion is strongly there
It's now a matter of time before both sides explode.
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