I asked earlier about having kids being a "lifestyle choice". He is why I asked:

[Stinky The Clown]

I have heard three times in three different conversations (IRL) about having a kid being a lifestyle choice. This then is getting linked back to taxes. Things like deductions for kids. Tax credits for paying for your kid to go to school. That sort of thing. Essentially, the notion is that having a kid is a lifestyle choice and you, as the one who made that choice, have no right to burden society to pay for the fallout from that choice.

Does that feel okay to you?



edit to add link to my earlier post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9042647&mesg_id=9042647

[Taverner]

1. Yes, it very much is a lifestyle choice

[valerief]

2. I always thought having children was a military fodder choice. nt

[Codeine]

3. Why would you start a whole new thread?

:shrug:

[Stinky The Clown]

12. Because putting it at the bottom of the earlier thread would ensure it never gets read

Besides, are screen pixels or bandwidth about to be rationed? What difference does it make how many threads get started? If a thread or a poster annoys you, exercise self control and ignore it/him/her.

Now, did you log into this thread to chastise me or to reply?

[Codeine]

14. Your point would have been more pertinent in the existing thread.

All you've done is ensure you're getting the maximum attention possible, which was your real goal.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Thank you fer setting me straight with repsect to my goal

Would you have gone back to my original thread after reading it once and maybe even replying and then seen this, read it, and replied?

Tell ya what: you use DU the way you wish and I will use it the way I wish. I will not be upset if you answer every thread I post or put me on ignore and answer none of them. But whining about what I do and how I do it when it has ABSOLUTELY no impact on you is incredibly arrogant.

And rude.

But you have a swell day, okay?

[AngryAmish]

4. As our nation ages it is going to get harder to be a parent

As the largest cohort of people in our country enters their 60s they will feel less and less obligated to help out raising the next generation. The loss of the child tax deduction (we need to raise revenue!), defunding public schools youth programs cut at the local park district - that sort of thing.

[Mz Pip]

5. Society is burdened

by people's lifestyle choices all the time. I would prefer that positive lifestyle choices not be considered a burdenbut maybe they are to some. The tax deduction for kids is pretty small in comparison to what taxpayers have to contribute towards the bad lifestyle choises of others.

Prisons are expensive and quite a few people who are in them are because of poor choices they made. Society pays for their actions in more ways than just in taxes.

[Fumesucker]

10. There's plenty of people in our prisons thanks to the poor choices our politicians have made..

The drug war being an obvious and blatant case in point.

[Mz Pip]

17. I agree about the drug war

No one should be in prison for pot offenses.

[uncommon]

6. It's a lifestyle choice that happens to confer many tangible benefits to society -- mainly

the continuation of the species, a new generation of workers, etc.

Starting a business is a choice - and one that has tangible benefit to society. Working at all is a choice and a benefit to society.

[Fumesucker]

7. Who's going to care for you when you get old and infirm?

Someone else's "lifestyle choice" I guess..

I have no problem with people that don't want to have children, not everyone is cut out to be a good parent and of those that are not all want to do that terribly hard job.

But we were all children at one time and, as HRC got so roundly roasted for pointing out, it takes a village to raise a child.

The village helped raise you, it is only honorable that you help raise the next generation, even if it is only by given parents a bit of a hand (or a hand out if you will).

Donning my Nomex Underoos for the flames I know are coming.

[Missy Vixen]

36. So, that's the ambition for a child?

"Who's going to care for you when you get old and infirm?"

Our grandma is in an assisted care facility. MOST of the people there don't get visits from their children, let alone any kind of meaningful care.

Obviously, I'm alone in this, but I am tired of people justifying an expensive private hobby (Think it's not? Try telling someone else you don't appreciate the way their child is misbehaving in public, for instance,) as a service to humanity. They wanted a baby. They had one. It's now everyone else's financial problem.

>The village helped raise you, it is only honorable that you help raise the next generation, even if it is only by given parents a bit of a hand (or a hand out if you will).<

I'm fifty. I've already paid for the "next generation". We're now paying for that generation's children.

We just had a "supplemental levy" in our school district. One of the highlights of that election was the scolding, nasty letter from the school board. In other words, you'll pay for what we want, and we don't have to offer any kind of justification for it. We've both been in the work force for over 30 years. We've long repaid our own educations. We're still paying.

[Fumesucker]

37. Eh, I'm sixty..

So I'm a bit ahead of you in paying for the generation after my own kids, indeed I'm only a few years away from being a great grandparent I think.

I don't have a problem with paying and I don't have much use for those who are so selfish that they do have a problem with it.

I for one wouldn't want to be a kid these days, it was much easier when I was a kid.

[Missy Vixen]

41. "Selfish," huh?

We're footing the bill without any of the benefits. I also don't expect others to pay for my life choices for the next 21 years.

We're also not responsible for the carbon footprint one little baby makes throughout his or her lifetime. Imagine the fun with two, three, NINETEEN of them, for instance.

[Fumesucker]

43. You think *your* grandparents didn't help pay for you?

Seriously?

ETA: The US birthrate is already below replacement levels, without immigration the population of the US would be declining so your complaining of people having too many kids is a bit off the mark.

[Missy Vixen]

45. It stops with us

We have no children. We will not be having children. We've paid repeatedly (and continue to pay,) for other people's children, despite the fact we have NO input into how they are raised, and whether or not they are even suited to enter the workforce.

BTW, my grandparents have been dead for over 20 years. Thanks for the reminder.

[Fumesucker]

47. I never even met my grandparents..

And other people had no input into the way you were raised..

But you'll expect someone to care for you when you can no longer care for yourself should you be unfortunate enough to live long enough to get to that point.

Or would you rather be set adrift on a fucking ice floe when you can no longer contribute?

[eShirl]

65. "But you'll expect someone to care for you when you can no longer care for yourself"

It's called a JOB.

[potassiumnitrate]

8. Sounds like typical conservative bullshit to me

It IS a lifestyle choice, but that doesn't mean society shouldn't have a hand in helping to raise the next generation.

[superduperfarleft]

55. Yep, it does. Welcome to DU. n/t

[surrealAmerican]

62. It sure does.

The thing they always seem to miss, is that it's in MY best interest to have YOUR children well educated. Nobody benefits from having an impoverished under class of illiterates.

[JuniperLea]

9. I didn't consider "lifestyle" when I decided to have kids...

It seemed more like a primal urge to me.

[Maine-ah]

44. I agree with that.

my body was "telling" me to have a baby. My only child is now almost four...and she'll stay an only child. Age three has been sufficient birth control to prevent siblings, I do love her with my whole being, but I do not want to play this game again. :hi:

[phantom power]

11. My pony-policy on that would be something like "no deductions past 2 children."

[MidwestTransplant]

20. That's funny!

[gratuitous]

13. What we tax and why

Generally (very generally) speaking, taxes are levied or relieved based on any number of things. The short answer is that you tax what you want to discourage and you give a tax break on things you want to encourage. As a society, we have decided that overall having a child is a good thing, and so we grant tax deductions for children without exception and without limitation. This has the salutary effect of giving parents more money to raise their children, society having decided that the parents are in the best position to make financial decisions that affect their children.

Now, there's all kinds of possibilities for other tax policies. Perhaps we decide that having one child is very desireable, having two children is less desireable, and having more children is undesireable (for many reasons, but let's just say we suddenly get concerned about overpopulation and the impact that too many humans have on the planet and its carrying capacity - yeah, I know, but it could happen). The first child earns the standard deduction, the second one earns a lesser deduction, the third gets a person no deduction, and the fourth and subsequent children begin accruing tax penalties. Persons for whom taxes are a determining factor might decide, of their own volition, that having two children is enough. Persons who then choose to have more than two children would then not be asking the greater society to subsidize their "lifestyle choice."

This, of course, would require a level of maturity that our society just plain doesn't have, especially when it comes to people having sex and some of those liaisons producing offspring. Right now, we're barely above a 10-year-old's maturity level, and it will require no less than a decade and probably more like 25 years for us to move in a different direction.

[Fire1]

16. Hell no! That does not feel okay to me and I call

Bullshit! What about parents who worked at minimum wage jobs and couldn't afford to "save" up thousands of dollars for tuition? Their children have to suffer and be denied an education? What kinda shit is that?? You'd prefer to pay for them to be on welfare?
In prison? Society is going to pay for them ONE WAY OR THE OTHER! I'd rather pay for them to become productive citizens.

[NightWatcher]

18. "burden society"....

I keep hearing people complain that their taxes go to pay for schools when they dont have kids, or their kids are grown....

By living in a SOCIETY we collectively agree to certain things: amongst those, we agree to provide school for children.

Not saying you are, but I'm tired of people trying to get out of the societal contract that we abide by.

We all live better when we "get along" in a society. You pay for my kids, I'll pay for the Fire Dept to put your house out if it catches fire.....

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Think of the roots of two words. It explains it all.

Socialism

Conservatism

[NightWatcher]

22. next time a Conservatives house catches fire, question his CHOICE to not make it out of mud

and refuse to pay the fire dept to put it out

[jdlh8894]

27. "the societal contract that we abide by"

And what would that be? I've never entered in to one.

[Lyric]

34. You stayed here when you became an adult, right? That's tacit consent.

We are all presumed to give consent to the social contract when we become adults and choose to remain citizens of this country, rather than moving elsewhere.

:shrug:

[jdlh8894]

38. Pesumed? To give consent ?

I think not!

[superduperfarleft]

52. Sure you did.

That people from your neighboring town aren't raping and pillaging where you live is evidence of that fact.

[Larkspur]

29. I'm child-free but when people complain about paying for schools, I remind them that...

schools are more cost effective than prisons and how many of them want a prison built near their home?

I have no problem with responsible parents, but I loathe the irresponsible ones, which I refer to as breeders, because they want the perks of being a parent without the responsibilities. Breeders are like Republicans in that sense.

[JerseygirlCT]

42. Have a friend who quips to those complaining about

taxes paying for education that if they're not using theirs, they can return it.

Funny how people who probably made use of free education themselves have a problem paying for it for anyone else.

[blueworld]

21. Do we have the right to benefit if the kid grows up to cure cancer?

I don't understand folks who try to put a price tag or a cost expressed in currency on every aspect of human life. Doesn't anyone watch "It's a Wonderful Life" or "Saving Private Ryan" anymore?

We pool our tax money so that we all benefit from services etc. that we could never afford individually. That includes other people's talented children. I'm sharing my magnificent son with y'all:) I don't resent that he had to work flinging hot crab legs around for years to pay his college tuition.

If they only want to pay for exactly what they use in this life, go live in a cave on a mountaintop with a goat for milk. Otherwise, in the spirit of AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, we share the burdens & blessings through responsible application of our red-white-blue-proud-to-be-an-American tax money. Fercripesakes, some people are such cheap, judgemental bass turds.

Is the "common welfare" another "quaint" aspect of the US Constitution?

[valerief]

23. In the US we only have Elite Welfare. No more common welfare.

Not enough leftover spare change from the elite's poaching for laborers.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Do we have a right to demand the tax bennies you got back if the kid turns out to be an ax murderer?

Parents justify their tax breaks on the premise that their kid is going to be the next Einstein or cure cancer. Well, statistically, your kid is more likely be a mass murderer than a curer of cancer.

[DonCoquixote]

30. No..

But we have every right to make sure they educate the children, and take care of them.

[Missy Vixen]

46. Maybe we should ask Klebold and Harris' parents for their tax deductions back.

:crickets:

[blueworld]

63. specific statistics, please. There are more doctors than axe murderers

And the whole point of my post was that there are infinite intangibles that can't be measured by dollars & cents. For example, how do you know that my tax bennies even came close to my tax expenditures?

Do I get back money for volunteering community service & saving you tax dollars?

You can't measure value in currency. I'm happy to pay taxes that benefit all, even if I don't get back 25 cents for every dime I spend.

[Lemonwurst]

25. There are exceptions of course

But in general I expect that most parents chose to have their kids. However, is it a lifestyle choice?

That your lifestyle will change is certain, but to what degree depends. At the extremes, very wealthy people can have children and if they want, go about their business almost as if their kids don't exist. Or they can be attentive, loving and wonderfully involved parents - either way, they have quite a range of lifestyle choices. Conversely, the lifestyles of the poorer among us will be dramatically changed with pretty much no choices.

'Burdening society' is a loaded term in the context of raising children. It implies that having a family is a privilege best suited to those who are financially advantaged, who would require no external assistance whatsoever to properly rear their young.

Whenever someone questions the necessity of public schools, parks, tax credits, etc. regarding children, it should be enough to point out that they were themselves the beneficiary of such societal "burdens".

It *should* be enough, but of course there's no logic in teabagger-world - just as there is no concept of irony.

[Warpy]

26. Yes, it's a silly hobby of self indulgent women

and never mind that the country and humanity, itself, depend on the back breaking labor of producing and raising the next generation of citizens and workers.

I chose not to produce children according to the advice of my rheumantologist. That was a lifestyle choice, choosing to live off a dialysis machine. However, I've always greatly admired the people who took that leap of faith that the world would hang together long enough that they'd see their children grow up. This country does very little to support that leap of faith.

Dismissing the essential work of the human race seems like what the vicious right wing does best, especially those vicious right wingers who are deeply closeted, self loathing gay men.

Lifestyle choice, my flabby old ass.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. I thought the whole point of legalizing contraception and abortion was so that you could choose

If you live in country where those things are available to you then, yes, it's a choice.

[izzybeans]

31. Yeah it feels okay. "Burdening society with new members"

:rofl: holy shit that's stupid.

let's not have children and say we did, then we'll see where "society" is later. K.

[uppityperson]

32. It isn't burdening society but ensure several things. Continuation of humans, workers, doctor and

other people to help care for others, etc etc etc.

[Vickers]

33. I feel fantastic "burdening" society with my kids.

:eyes:

[Lyric]

35. When my son grows up to be a doctor who cares for crotchety old childless people

who resented the "social burden" of helping to pay for his public education when he was a child, I shall be polite and refrain from comment.

[Fumesucker]

39. You're a better person than I..

I'll call them selfish assholes right to their faces..

And if they get snippy with me I'll beat them with my walker.. :evilgrin:

Edited to put word left out..

[Missy Vixen]

40. With all due respect

You get a tax deduction for it. We don't.

We spend a hell of a lot more money paying for those who can't or won't parent via prisons than we'll ever pay for for a kid that goes to medical school. Again, we have no control over those who have kids because "they wanted a baybeeeeee", they wanted to continue the family name, they wanted "someone that loved them", bla bla bla. The vast majority aren't having children as a service to humanity.

I'm childfree, but I'm not crotchety. Mostly, I'm tired of people like our neighbor, who pushed out four kids, "homeschools" them by having them fill out workbook pages at 10 PM (NO exaggeration,) and teaches them her little RW fundie theories. Our taxes subsidize her lifestyle. I'm tired of people like the Duggars, who are deducting 19 little bundles of joy, and talking about another one.

The earth is overpopulated. The environmental damage is significant. I'm with the poster upthread -- it's time to allow tax deductions for two children per family. If people choose to have more, that's their decision, but they do so realizing that there will be no deduction. We've more than repopulated.

IMHO, YMMV.

[Fumesucker]

50. The incarceration rate in the US is *seven* times that of Canada..

Do you really think that Americans are seven times as criminally minded as Canadians, eh?

Put the blame for soaring prison populations where it belongs, on the politicians who get kickbacks from private prison corporations and prison guard unions.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I *seriously* doubt prison guard unions are contributing to the rates of incarceration

[superduperfarleft]

54. Fuck yeah!

And those fucking old people, I'm sick of paying to support them too! Selfish bastards...

I'm child-free by choice, and I have no problem paying into a system that allows children to at least have the opportunity (in theory) to grow up well-fed and well-educated. There's nothing wrong with encouraging people to make responsible decisions when it comes to reproduction (pro-choice and all that), but legislating it like you are attempting to do is a seriously bad idea that (1) creates pushback from a segment of the population that is in the majority (people who bear children) and (2) punishes the kid who had no choice whether or not he or she was brought into this world.

Your anecdotal evidence of abuse is about as valid a reason to discontinue child tax credits as would be discontinuing welfare benefits because I had an ex-girlfriend's cousin's sister that lived in the projects collecting welfare while her drug dealer boyfriend made sure the kids all had playstations and designer clothes.

[Missy Vixen]

59. The elderly paid into Social Security

They're collecting on their initial investment.

>Your anecdotal evidence of abuse is about as valid a reason to discontinue child tax credits as would be discontinuing welfare benefits because I had an ex-girlfriend's cousin's sister that lived in the projects collecting welfare while her drug dealer boyfriend made sure the kids all had playstations and designer clothes.<

The problem with the above statement is there are people on every block in this country that persist in having children they can't or won't raise to be functioning adults. When those of us who actually pay for those choices speak up to object about fads like homeschooling, we're the Grinch. It's soooo notttt fairrrrrr. Accountability is so 1990. Thinkkkkk of the chilllldrennnnnn.

I mentioned one family in this neighborhood. There are actually several who are flouting the homeschooling laws for their own ends, and have been for quite some time. If this happens in a fairly liberal city that is considered one of the most literate in the country, what's going on in the Bible Belt? Those kids will be in the workforce some day. My tax dollars are going to educate them. Where's the ROI? If the kid in question can't be in public because he/she's never been vaccinated and can't do more than basic math and English, who's footing the bill when he or she can't get a job? Again, US.

The segment of the population with kids is shrinking. There are multiple cities around the country (Seattle and San Francisco, for example,) that the childfree population outnumbers those who chose to procreate. I see no reason why the tax deduction can't be limited to two children in each family. We're no longer in replacement mode. We're now in "what the fuck are we going to do when the drinkable water's all gone?" mode. I see no reason why the standard tax deduction for children can't be cut off at two.

If you want to give a tax deduction, give one to those who have themselves sterilized. Give one for birth control costs. We're overpopulated, period.

[superduperfarleft]

60. The way i smoke, i won't live to 65. i need that cash now.

The thing you're asking for a ROI from is a child. You're not ultimately penalizing the parent, you are penalizing the child, who had no say in the situation in which they were born.

You remind me of people that are pissed they have to pay child support because their ex-wife is a bitch.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. It's a business. A really, really profitable business.

I'm sure I made a killing having three kids.

Granted, I haven't added up the reciepts yet, but how much could it have possibly cost to raise three kids to adulthood? $100? $150?

[Hannah Bell]

49. no. "lifestyle choice" is whether to pierce or eat granola. kids are something else.

calling it a "lifestyle choice" puts children -- people -- on a par with pets.

[harun]

51. It is a lifestyle choice but that doesn't mean helping other people

is negated.

I don't have kids and I am glad my tax dollars go for helping children get an education. My self and no one in my family could have afforded all the buildings, schools and teachers I had while growing up. In other words other people helped me, now I get to help them.

That's just in the education part of it, if we want to have a society beyond being nomads we need education and training (neither of which is free).

[Withywindle]

53. I think it is a lifestyle choice of sorts

And it's one that I've never felt the slightest glimmer of interest in, personally.

But I don't mind in the least contributing in what way I can to schools and food programs and the like, because we ARE all interconnected, and everybody does benefit in some way from having upcoming generations be healthy and well-educated.


I do have a problem with Quiverfull breeding styles, and I *do* have a problem with the kind of parents who insist that all of society needs to help them, but get all MY PRIVATE LIFE/MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS/DON'T TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY CHILD when someone objects politely to their child being disruptive in public. Either it takes a village or it doesn't. You don't get to dictate when you want the village and when you don't.

[REP]

58. Yup

I'm also tired of paying for $578 million dollar schools that turn out functionally illiterate students. I'd like to pay for some good teachers (where I live, I know I'm paying for at least one, and donated $ to help keep her job - and I don't have kids).

[cynatnite]

56. In a perfect world there would be no accidental pregnancies...

In a perfect world it would be about lifestyle and in a perfect world all women would be able to choose to be pregnant or not be pregnant. They could exercise their right for an abortion.

In a perfect world there would be no deadbeat dads, no abusive fathers, no loss of jobs, and a million other things that puts the care of a child at our doorstep.

Since it's not a perfect world, we have a moral obligation to take care of the most innocent and vulnerable among us...no matter what.

[noamnety]

61. "Choice" implies free will.

About half of all pregnancies are unplanned. Some are the result of rape, some are the result of failed birth control, some are the result of pressure (up to and including abuse) to continue a pregnancy, some come about because family planning options are inaccessible either by law or by financial obstacles.

That's my first issue.

The second issue is whether society should have the responsibility to ensure for the general well being of its citizens. I would argue that that's the primary purpose of government, and I don't see a reason to take the absolute most vulnerable segment of population and exclude them from having basic human rights (education, health, food, shelter).

[blueamy66]

64. Here's my take, and I'll try not to be long-winded

My brother died in his 30s, after a life full of disappointments, drug use and abuse, alcohol use and abuse and failed dreams. He left 3 lovely children.

Unfortunately, his 2 oldest, girls, are looking for their Dad in a mate and have also made some difficult choices. The oldest, in her mid-20s, has 3 little ones (Dad has them part time) and her younger sister, 21, has 2 little guys (Dads have no interest in them). They are the lights of my life. My nephew, who is 12, struggles without his Dad.....who looks just like his Dad.

Anyway, both girls work their asses off, receive some govt assistance (not alot) and get a bit of child support. They are both on their own, in apartments in the same community. The whole family is very close.

Now, to the point....I don't mind having some of my tax dollars help pay for WIC for the babies. They don't qualify for daycare help, but luckily, grandma and great grandma are happy to help. These girls both got certs to be Medical Assistants and work 12 hour days if possible.

If my tax dollars go to help these little ones through life, then so be it. I don't have any kids, never wanted them.

Sometimes, it takes a village....