How bad does it have to get ?

[kentuck]

Before the bubble-isolated Congress would agree to help?

How many homeless people would have to be on the streets?

How many hungry people with some starving to death?

How many people without jobs or any means of support?

Will they still be worried about taxes and a balanced budget, as people lay dying?

These are questions we may want to ask now before it gets to that point?

Should we be encouraging communal living and farming?

Should we be teaching people how to dig wells for water? And how to grow food and raise livestock for survival? And how to can fruits and vegetables and how to dry them in the sun?

I worry that people will start dying and no one in Washington will really care.

[RagAss]

1. How many Non-Reported Suicides ?????!

[RandomThoughts]

2. The people that kill them don't care.

That is the problem. You can't let someone threatening to kill change what you will accept, so while you try to stop people from being killed, when there own actions lead to that, and they will not listen and correct issues, then what can you do.

It is sad when people die, and it is even sadder when people don't care, hence why speaking up on injustices that need correcting is so important, because injustices lead to those being unjust hurting themselves, by creating situations that hurt others.


And it does not matter how bad it gets, anything not acceptable is the same as anything else not acceptable.

[Mark D.]

143. Controlled Resistance

There is the reason why it's accepted. You make a great point. And that is the cause. It's not complicated. This IS neo-feudalism. A monarchy or empire was never 'elected'. It took power by force, nobody had rights. The so called 'patriotic' folk I talk to don't get this and continue to focus on government as the sole cause of problems. Not the problems we talk about here. But the 'threat' they face if we try to fix those problems (with 'their' tax dollars).

The whole tea party thing is controlled resistance. Get every attempt by this administration, however we on the left find those inferior, to be seen as the problem. Make the people in shackles hate the attempts to pick their locks. We say they're not picking them fast enough. They protest the attempt to pick them in general. Be that attempt trying to make taxation more progressive, or trying to regulate banks, or give those without heath care help.

You cannot overthrow a feudalist plutocratic elite if almost half of their victims actively oppose any attempt to do so. If the anti-empire, anti-elite, pro-chartiy, ultra liberal Christ they supposedly pray to were alive today, doing His thing, they'd ostracize Him like Kucinich or Dean or Sanders or Grayson or anyone like them. It's obvious. We simply cannot change this until we get more on our side.

As poverty grows, and more in that tea party group who are 'doing fine, why change things?' slip into the working poor bracket, which they don't realize is happening now, those controlled fools will just continue to bash the less than 1% of our GDP going to 'welfare' which has a finite 5 year limit anyway (it's not a 'way of life' as they are deceived to think it is, as if the reforms never happened). They will continue to get mad at illegal immigrants and not the rich bastard who hire them, instead of Americans, who cause them to want to hop the border.

They will continue to run in the wrong direction. Following pied pipers of Faux News, Limbaugh, etc. Be bold, change your debates. Stop going issue by issue. You'll never get them to agree. Remember the story of the couple with 7 or 9 kids and no plans to stop from CT who went to a Palin teabag rally? How they were standing there protesting 'hand-outs' and 'welfare' while they were on Medicaid because they had too many kids to afford insurance?

You can't 'reason' with that. They will never understand. You have to indicate they are fooled. Make them understand the 'big brother' 'nanny-state' government they are trained to fear is empowering the few true 'big brothers' (WalMart, Monsanto, GE, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, you know the rest) to grow in power. The elite WANT them bitching about $20 million going to arts or something, so they ignore the hundreds of billions going to war. The tens of trillions in liquidity we have to pay for going to the banks from the Federal Reserve, that's no more 'Federal' than 'Federal Express'.

Then shorty after, Bernake says we have to cut entitlement programs. What a scam. They want them to call any attempt to point out the elite controlled system as 'conspiracy theory'. They want every attempt to help even the working class, or give them and very small businesses tax breaks paid for by taxing the rich more, to be seen as 'socialism'. They are hiding in plain sight, the monarchy of corporations sending out the clowns like Beck and Limbaugh, whose 'acts' border on comedy routines, to entertain them like court jesters. AND IT'S WORKING

[steve2470]

3. Just as bad as March 1933 or worse

I hope I'm wrong.

[Davis_X_Machina]

9. Hard numbers? U6 at or near 40%...

...U3 at or near 20%

...and unemployment among those with college degrees near 10%.

[steve2470]

10. what is U6 and U3 ? nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

13. Measures...

... of unemployment.

U3 is the usual one you hear.

[steve2470]

15. ok thanks for the info nt

[havocmom]

32. It will take MUCH worse. Society has been conditioned to demonize victims for decades now

As a society, we spit on the victims of economic injustice and hoist the perpetrators up on our shoulders. The latter being a good trick, considering our shoulders are already holding up the whole top economic brackets as the gap widens to an oily gulf.

[sendero]

79. +1

[Curmudgeoness]

4. My comment to all who bitch about taxes helping the poor was

always "I do not want to live in a country where I will have to watch people eating out of dumpsters and sleeping all over the streets". I never expected that this could really happen here, it was just a point I tried to make. But these days, I really get scared.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. There should be more organization state-wide to help the growing problem

it would seem that local government is not equipped to deal with this. There's no excuse that there is no funding to help homeless people and people without money

Communities do need to stick together and take people in if they are homeless. Communities need to know what's going on.
Congress and the administration should be directing states and county councils to organize. Obama was a community organizer and he should instruct the appropriate departments to tell people where do get help.

Rest assured people will be left high and dry if there is Republican government.

[JDPriestly]

130. In California, the state government's hands are tied.

It cannot raise taxes on the rich. And they are the only ones with any money left.

[Overseas]

6. K&R. Good questions. //nt

[txlibdem]

7. All good reasons to live in a commune

http://idylliawestcommune.webs.com
http://idylliawest.blogspot.com/
http://directory.ic.org/records/?record_id=22671&action=view

[eleny]

8. I couldn't find any argument with Joe Bageant after reading his latest blog entry

It's here... http://www.joebageant.com/
"Understanding America's Class System"

It's already been posted here at DU, so I won't quote it again. Maybe you saw it. His assessment of the political class made a lot of sense to me given how things have shaken out over the decades. I agree with you that many in D.C. don't care. Otherwise, HCR wouldn't have turned out to be a joke compared to what it could and should be.

I don't believe in ever giving up on making change happen for the better. It helps to know what we're up against.

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. Joe Bageant's people...

...will be the ones who will put the GOP over the finish line in PA (Toomey) and KY (Paul) this November.

[eleny]

18. He points out that the puppet masters behind the tea party scene are the GOP

So it's no surprise that they melded with the R Party.

[Raksha]

54. Wow...thank you for posting this!

I just read the whole thing. Joe Bageant is right on as always.

[eleny]

75. I hope his new book gets released in the U.S. soon

[sendero]

81. Torches and pitchforks..

.. and it's coming I believe, just need a few more years until people figure this all out.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. unemployment rose again and the 99ers are hung out to dry

I know people who have been out for two years. It is fucked. There doesn't appear to be an end in sight. Obama should be railing against Republicans every damn day and everyone in his administration should be talking about nothing other than the Party of No and their obstruction.

[prolesunited]

90. They really have to do something

If you look at the stats, the 99ers are mostly over 45 and now have now been out of work for two years. A lot of them are professionals with post-secondary education who have never had issues finding a job. NOBODY is going to hire them unless there is nearly full employment.

They need a special program for retraining or at least direct hiring to give them more recent job experience.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. Or an emergency early entry program for SS and medicare.

that would take the 55+ crowd off the job market, help the other end, the 20-somethings stuck at home in career non-starts, and remove unemployment politicking from its current 13-week cycle of bullshit.

But that would be a different reality than the one we inhabit, a reality where a progressive pro-working family Democratic Party stood up and fought for us.

[WinkyDink]

14. Nation-wide marches, candle-lit vigils, riots, arrests, deaths/murders. If history is any predictor.

The fearful need the fearless, and I don't see any of the latter on the national scene.

[socialist_n_TN]

132. Yep. This is what it will take..................

The capitalists have to be scared shitless of the workers before they do anything. Millions in the streets (either living there are rioting there) is the only way they'll get off their dead asses and do anything.

[stray cat]

16. how much have you paid to help? After all we fund the government's help

what have we each done personally and how bad does it have to get before we offer our own aid?

[earthside]

17. What do you want Congress to do? n/t

[kentuck]

20. I'm afraid Congress is not capabale of doing anything.

That is the problem. Congress and government are not there for you. They are there for the corporations. There are a few token Democrats that are willing to fight for the people but they are only there to give the appearance that someone is fighting for the little guy. The truth of the matter is that there are too many corporate Democrats and Republicans for anything to get done that might help the people that need help.

So long as we are a divided people that can agree on nothing, these corporate interests, with the help of government, will continue to choke the life out of the rest of us. Damn those Teabaggers!

[DJ13]

19. Why would they care?

Everything is great for their class, and they've already reinforced the walls around their gated communities.

[Barack2theFuture]

21. How many homeless, hungry dying, etc.?

All of them.

The political institutions of this country offer zero help to the common citizenry. If you are not in or in the direct service of the wealthy elite, you are on your own.

[asdjrocky]

22. This election, and the policies that have followed have made things crystal clear to me.

It's a profit thing. Of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.

[sandnsea]

23. What the fucking hell are you talking about?

Did you miss the damn posts about the cuts in food stamps - which could only be cut because THEY WERE INCREASED LAST YEAR.

Or the 2 years of unemployment benefits.

Or the $25 increase in benefits that were also allowed to be cut because progressives said they were ridiculous in the first place.

Or the additional housing funds and new homeless program.

Or the new assistance to vets.

What the hell do you want? A $2,000 a month check and a free house?

[kentuck]

24. Huh?

Are you saying it isn't that bad? That the government is already providing what is needed?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dragonfli]

31. So they were teaser bargaining chips to begin with? You applaud giving them up for bi-partisanship?

[sandnsea]

26. There is more help now than there ever has been

People who don't know that are either too young to know what it was like in 50s and 60s, or never needed assistance in the past and don't know how good they have it in comparison to what it really was like in FDR's day, when there was NOTHING.

Yes times are tough. But that does not remotely mean people are being allowed to starve in the streets.

God no wonder people leave this damn party. Whine whine fucking whine.

[midnight]

92. This is worse than the 50's and 60's. This is going to be worse than the 30's.

Stonewalling aid

But as the editors of The Nation highlight, Republican politicians have made it nearly impossible to get that critical aid out to American families. They’ve demanded strict measures for these benefits, forcing Democrats to cut food stamps—that’s right, food stamps—in order to keep teachers in school and cops on the street.

Millions of families all over the country depend on food stamps. In the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression, Republican politicians took a stand to take food from the mouths of children—and they did it while supporting a $300 billion a year in handouts for the rich.http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/17/are-handouts-for-billionaires-more-important-than-feeding-children/

[Mojorabbit]

95. I am in my mid 50's

and I have never seen anything like this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/thousands-wait-to-apply-f_n_678840.html

[sandnsea]

105. Normally the applications are in files

and on computers. So you don't see that there are 30,000 people in any given city waiting to get housing assistance. It's nothing new, believe me. We could definitely raise section 8 vouchers about ten times what is given now, and have no problem giving them out.

There are ALWAYS people who need help with housing, LOTS of them. Name the best year under Clinton - and I guarantee you there were 30,000 people in Atlanta who needed Section 8 vouchers and couldn't get them. More undoubtedly.

[Hannah Bell]

99. unemployment insurance was part of the social security act of 1935.

food stamps pilot during the depression and 1961-64, full food stamps act = 1964. veterans programs institution = 30s through 50s.

plus, you know, wages were increasing in the 50s & 60s, not decreasing, and unemployment never got over 9%.

[laughingliberal]

137. There are some people starving on the streets.

Yes, there is more help now than in the 30's. I would have a hard time arguing that it's nearly adequate or that we're doing a good job.

I think the OP asks some valid questions.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

29. Food stamps. Unemployment. Homeless programs.

Vets programs.

YES they are helping people.

[asdjrocky]

30. You're being a bully.

I know people who are hungry right now. There really are people hurting that have no help from the people they elect, I'm living, breathing, walking around proof.

[sandnsea]

33. Take them to a food bank

There are occasionally people who don't get sufficient help from food stamps because of their income and having teen-age children or something. But there is no reason for people to be completely without food. I've been there way too many times in my lifetime to have people try to run that starvation line on me. There is always a place to get food.

[kentuck]

34. Will there always be?

Or will the cupboards be bare when the people need it the most?

[sandnsea]

36. Unless the county commissioners run off with the money

But as things stand in this country today, yes, there will be food at the food bank when it is needed. And if you're worried about it in your city, then get off the computer and go collect canned goods.

[kentuck]

38. Rather rude...

Perhaps it is you that should step away from the computer for awhile?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MessiahRp]

141. Wow to be as naive as you...

Read the results from this simple Google Search.

Pages and Pages of irrefutable proof destroying that last comment of yours.

http://www.google.com/search?q=food+banks+running+out+of+food

[asdjrocky]

35. There were 3 food banks in my city just a few years ago.

It's now down to one, and that one is having a hard time. I know this because for three summers I've grown veggies for them.

I realize that this may not be your city, or your life experience, but it is what other people, many, are living right now. I have no interest in magnifying the degree of the problem, I can only relate to what I see, what my life experience is in a midsized California city.

Take a different angle, a different look.

[sandnsea]

37. Go collect food for them then

Do a fundraiser. There are plenty of people in this country with plenty of money to continue to help. Go find it.

There is more money coming from the federal government for assistance then there ever has been. If it's not enough for your town, then you need to figure out where the money is going at the county level.

[Dragonfli]

39. I think we should send them cake! I get it now, You are the most kind hearted person ever!

They can always eat cake.

[sandnsea]

42. Food stamps, food bank, commodities, WIC, daily soup kitchen

Oh yeah, we don't do anything for the hungry in this country. Just give them bread and water.

People have got to get some objectivity.

The reason Obama isn't creating a cazillion FDR programs is because we already have them. He has increased funding. People are not starving in the streets.

[Dragonfli]

45. I know many in a severe state of poverty some living in cars that are no longer insured

One man I know lives in a little cement room by a train trestle.
They often do not eat. At the end of the month I cook what is left of my rice and beans and bring by what I can, I am not enough help for them and neither is the system as it stands, our nation has made progress for the good before, the job is not done as you appear to claim it is. We want the job taken up again until it is finished, not traded away as was food stamp support and the 25 dollar a week "cake" that was bargained away anyway for bi-partisan support.

This is America now, full of broken homeless people and still you feel enough has been done and they should eat the cake provided.

I would recommend you get your head out of the corporate asses that we are all supposed to feed our nations resources to. Handing over needed resources to millionaires even as these people are homeless because "they haven't starved yet and they just need perspective." is the "let them eat cake" of our day and you argue for the royalty, I find that offensive.

[sandnsea]

47. "25 dollar a week 'cake'", lol there you go

That $25 a week feeds a person. So who is calling what "cake"? You didn't fight for that because it was nothing, meaningless.

You are clueless.

And the person living in the little cement room? Why haven't you taken him to a shelter and otherwise connected him with social workers in your town?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

56. Have you taken George to social services?

Have you taken him to the local mental health services?

[Dragonfli]

63. No he won't go there again, he said they wasted a day and didn't help

I don't know if that is true but he is very afraid of uniforms, he seemed sincere however and even showed me a form he filled out that asked alot about his landlord, how many people lived there and his income. It was mostly blank as he had nothing to put down but his name and SS #.

I really should call them, maybe I can advocate for him and see if they will give him at least food stamps.
Thanks for reminding me, I should at least see if I can help him with the red tape designed to discourage people away from welfare.

It is worth a try, it may anger him a little but we're cool and I do worry about him, winters are cold in Buffalo.

[sandnsea]

70. People with mental illnesses have other issues

As I said below. Mountains of food and a mile of apartments won't help them unless they had a mental health worker that helps with their social services. They have that in Washington state, I don't know about where you live.

Point remains, the programs are there. Increasing the programs isn't going to help your friend. Your friend needs a FRIEND. You might try NAMI too, they're excellent in helping the mentally ill.

[Dragonfli]

77. He isn't mentally ill, just out of work for 5 years and frightened and vulnerable.

There is not enough help for people no matter how much you type it.
Blaming the impoverished or claiming they are mentally ill and refusing the help does not change reality.

You once saw this reality, but have forgotten. Or simply no longer care as you are now OK.

There are millions of us with eyes that look and live beyond suburbia and we see what is true no matter what you try to spin.

There are still people that are homeless and people that are slowly starving - your denials won't change what we all can see.
Reality is strange that way, when you know someone that has nothing, no lie can make you forget they exist.

Take a walk in the city my friend, if you really are a Democrat, just take a walk in the real world and simply open your eyes, you will then see that something is terribly wrong.

Not every impoverished and hungry person is mentally ill, they just aren't.

[Dragonfli]

82. It would appear my answer was not dlc approved and was deleted, Can we not discuss a disagreement

over trickle down philosophy anymore?

[sandnsea]

53. BTW, I've lived in a car wtih my child n/t

[Dragonfli]

55. You recommend it then? /nt

[sandnsea]

57. Oh absolutely, that's just what I was saying n/t

[kentuck]

65. How lucky to have a car.

That would be a dream for some people.

[sandnsea]

67. I haven't always had a car n/t

[laughingliberal]

138. +1000 nt

[asdjrocky]

41. Okay, I've tried.

Really, I'm not trying to fight. I grow veggies for them. Hundreds of pounds every summer and fall. I live in the poorest of the poor neighborhoods in a sorry and depressed town. I don't know anyone who can raise money at that level because poor people know other poor people.

Instead of listening, and understanding I feel a bootstraps lecture coming on. We're are literally doing all we can out here to help, many of us are.

If there is federal help out there, we're not seeing it.

[sandnsea]

43. Go to the county

Look at the accounting. Ask them where the money for food banks is going.

Go to the Salvation Army or similar agency. All of them. Ask them about sponsoring a fundraiser.

ETC ETC

They increased food stamps. Anybody who is on food stamps got that increase.

You are getting help. I do not know why you don't know it.

[Hannah Bell]

60. he already said he grows food for them. quit putting the failure of the economy on his shoulders.

[sandnsea]

62. And here come the reinforcements n/t

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

78. Did the truth hurt?

[Hannah Bell]

83. look, your whole schtick is: "Why don't *you* do something?" HE IS. But it doesn't make up for

the failure of government, which takes resources to "do something" away from most of the population.

[Forkboy]

68. You make a great New Democrat.

You sum them up as well as anything I've yet come across.

Except the GOP party platform.....

[QC]

85. Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

With "New Democrats," who needs Republicans?

[Fire1]

134. I think most would be satisfied with gainful employment. n/t

[kentuck]

44. There are over 17 million unemployed...

and millions have lost their homes. We don't know how much worse it might get. We do know that the Republicans fought the unemployment extension to the last man a few weeks ago. I'm sure those families that did not get that assistance had no problem getting help? They probably had much of it stashed away for just such a rainy day??

History has shown us that when times get tough, the less help people get from churches and food banks. They simply don't have enough to help everyone. These times will be no different.

It is unreal and insensitive to suggest that no one will go hungry or that no one will starve or freeze to death if times get worse. There is no reason to believe the politicians in Washington will help.

[sandnsea]

46. No One NEED Starve Or Freeze To Death

There is ALWAYS someone to help if one chooses to ask. The biggest problem are those who CANNOT ask because of mental illness or addiction. For some of them, there could be mountains of food and apartments lined up for a mile and it would do no good. Their issues will not be solved by food and housing alone.

Now that's the truth of it. When you rant along for help that ALREADY EXISTS, then you aren't fighting for the help that is actually needed.

Kind of like when you rant against drilling for oil and only against drilling for oil, then there's nobody to make sure the oil that is being drilled for is being properly regulated.

[kentuck]

48. I'm sorry.

The economy is just dandy. There is no need for anyone to suffer or go hungry. All we need to do is extend the Bush taxcuts and we will be back on the road to recovery. We will be all smiles when we climb that Big Rock Candy mountain. Please forgive my ignorance.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

58. Rude and name calling again.

As a matter of fact, I have seen poverty like few here have ever seen. I have seen hunger and cold. I have experienced it. I know what it is like to get up with nothing to eat, not even sugar. But still have an ounce of pride about asking others for help. Begging is not a characteristic I was born with or nonchalantly pass off as nothing more than breathing. Sometimes it is better to go hungry than to ask some assholes for help.

[sandnsea]

61. Didn't answer my question

Ever had nothing to feed your children except some sugar left in the bottom of a bag? Ever had them live in a tarp over a rope?

[kentuck]

64. And how did you escape from that experience?

Did you get a job? Did you beg? Yes, I have been homeless. Unfortunately, I did not have a tarp. But it is all relative, I suppose.

Was this a temporary experience for you or did you have to experience it for years as a child, not knowing if there was anything to get you thru the next day. For years...?

[sandnsea]

66. Not you. Your children.

Ever been unable to provide food and shelter FOR YOUR CHILD.

How did I escape that experience. SOCIAL SERVICES. And I can tell you they are ten times better TODAY, than they were in the eighties, which was ten times better than it was in the sixties.

Some people have no fucking idea what the hell they are talking about.

[kentuck]

71. No, Fortunately no children to put through that experience.

I know times were very bad for you.

The point of the initial post is that government is in a bubble. Will there be any help, like you and others may have gotten in the past, if times get worse?

They don't give a shit. Government has changed. They don't care about people anymore. If times get worse, how bad would it be? That was my point before it was driven off tangent and off a cliff.

[sandnsea]

74. Reagan was better than Obama? That's what you're saying? n/t

[Forkboy]

80. Yes, that's exactly what he was saying.

Good fucking Lord......

[inna]

87. Shame on you.

Stop bullying and tormenting people and openly distorting their words.

What truly vile behavior. Beyond disgusting.

[Ricochet21]

136. Exactly

pass her some valium

[griffi94]

140. you know

it's not really a contest of who had it worst.
homeless broke and hungy is homeless broke and hungry whether you've got kids or just yourself.

you seem to be engged in a futile attempt to tell people that what they're seeing and experiencing doesn't really exist because it was so much worse in the past.

i've seen the list you posted about the increase in services. i'm not sure if you've noticed but there's also been a pretty major increase in unemployment, foreclosures and stagnated wages, so there's also an increase in the amount of people requiring those same services.

[closeupready]

149. What seems to be being said is that because he/she had it bad, nobody can ever have it as bad.

if they don't WANT it to be that bad. Which is complete BULLSHIT. :mad:

[Forkboy]

73. I was that child.

I was homeless at 17. You're attitude is shit. Hide behind your past all you want...you sound like Rush now.

[Forkboy]

72. Yes, you are unhelpful.

Whatever you went through, you managed to take it to a perverse level only a Repub could appreciate.

[FirstLight]

86. NONONONONO! you don't get it

"There is ALWAYS someone to help if one chooses to ask. The biggest problem are those who CANNOT ask because of mental illness or addiction. For some of them, there could be mountains of food and apartments lined up for a mile and it would do no good. Their issues will not be solved by food and housing alone. "


There is not ALWAYS help. I've been turned down for unemployment because i didn't work enough the previous quarter, I've been denied foodstamps and cash aid because my car was worth $75 more than the property you are allowed to own and be "in need." Jumping through the hoops is not for the feint of heart. It has nothing to do with mental health or addiction, it simply is not easy for ANYONE to have to sign over their life and privacy and practically their firstborn to get a few crumbs. $785 a month for a family of four is not something you can use to 'get a leg up' and the depression and lost-ness of being without job, food, and wondering how you keep the heat on are all HUGE stressors, and that doesn't make you mentally ill...just screwed up.

The OP's question is "how bad does it have to get?" and you are arguing that it shouldn't be seen as bad at all because there's 'programs in place' to help...well, those programs are not helping and are stressed beyond capacity, pollyanna.

[sandnsea]

89. There Is More Than There Ever Has Been

My daughter gets food stamps for her and her two kids, $550 a month. She has a $4,000 2002 vehicle.

Regardless, if one qualifies for NO assistance, there are still food banks, soup kitchens and shelters.

I have lived it, all my life. I know the help that is out there. You do have to go get it. The only ones who have a legitimate reason to not get that help are the mentally ill and addicts.

It isn't a free pass to utopia and I never said it was. I said the programs have gotten increases and the same people who are bitching about there not being enough, right in this thread, bitched when the increases were passed too. They just like to bitch. They don't like to actually DO anything about the people they claim to care about. The idea of actually going out and collecting the canned goods, why that's insulting. Well just who the hell do they think does it?

That's what I said. And if you find someone who lives in the real world with real people who deal with these problems day in and day out, good times and bad, a "pollyanna", well then I think you might need a new definition of the word.

[Duncan Grant]

94. I'm going to tell you plainly: You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Your contempt for others (and the truth, I might add) doesn't make you right.

Mental health and drug treatment services are being cut in San Francisco -- at every fucking agency in town -- for the 3rd year in a row. Many of these agencies (especially those that served poor addicts) went out of business last year.

I know personally that a 35-year old mental health/substance treatment agency which serves over 1,300 people per year (hundreds of which are the elderly) -- announced yesterday they will be closing permanently in October.

Hell, the local suicide prevention agency is wondering how to keep their doors open.

Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up.

edit: "drug treatment services"

[sandnsea]

97. There weren't mental health & drug treatment services in 1980

If this were 1980, there wouldn't be "many of these agencies" to be cut or go out of business. So thank you for making my point although I doubt you'll be a big enough person to apologize for your contempt and rudeness.

[Hannah Bell]

98. there were. you don't know what you're talking about.

[sandnsea]

100. My husband got his certification in 1986

I absolutely DO know what I'm talking about. Treatment wasn't covered by any insurance. The only treatment centers that existed were Hazeldon or AA models where most of the staff were very nearly volunteers. There was NO outpatient treatment, AT ALL.

As for mental illness services in 1980, we all know what Reagan did there.

There was nothing in 1980, and most certainly nothing as compared to the progress made in the 90s, especially since treatment is paid for by insurance in most states now.

[Hannah Bell]

102. you don't know what you're talking about. no, like most medical bills weren't "covered by

insurance" -- because you didn't need insurance for *most* medical care. Medical care didn't become inexorably linked with "insurance" until the 70s-80s.

Narcotics Anonymous = 1950s. Many drug treatment programs in the 1950s-1960s, mostly government/church-funded or cheap enough to pay out of pocket.

http://www.daytop.org/history.html


Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, drug addiction incidence increased. During the 1960s, treatment practices changed and medical treatment again became the predominant method of coping with drug abuse. For example, the Public Health Service opened treatment hospitals for heroin addicts in Kentucky and Texas. Most treatment programs that began in the 1960s focused on abusers who used only heroin.

(public health service programs = GOVERNMENT FUNDED)

In the 1970s, methadone maintenance and therapeutic treatment communities were used successfully for heroin addicts. However, as drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines were recognized to cause dependency, a new approach to treatment was adopted outpatient drug-free programs with emphasis on individual counseling. As a result, Federal, State and local government funding increased. Private funding for drug abuse treatment also increased in the late 1970s and 1980s as coverage became available by private health insurance programs.

From the 1980s to the present, Federal funding has increased both for treatment and prevention (enforcement and education). Private funding, along with State and local governments, continued to pay for most drug abuse treatment. In recent years, private coverage has begun to decline as insurance cost containment programs reduced coverage allowances for drug abuse treatment.

http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-04-91-00430.pdf


1946: On July 3, President Truman signed the National Mental Health Act, creating for the first
time in US history a significant amount of funding for psychiatric education and research and
leading to the creation in 1949 of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).

1947-51: Governor Luther Youngdahl started development of community-based mental health
services and humane treatment for people in state institutions.

1956: The Health Amendments Act authorized the support of community services for the mentally ill, such as halfway houses, daycare, and aftercare under Title V.

1963: President Kennedy proposed and signed legislation that started community mental health
center movement to substitute comprehensive community care for custodial institutional care.

1965: The CMHC (Community Mental Health Center) Act Amendments of 1965, (P.L. 91-211),
were enacted and included the following major provisions: Construction and staffing grants to
centers were extended and facilities that served those with alcohol and substance abuse disorders
were made eligible to receive these grants. Grants were provided to support the initiation and
development of mental health services in poverty-stricken areas. A new program of grants was
established to support further development of children’s services.

1969: Minnesota Association of Community Mental Health Centers forms. Around that same
time the MN legislation on CMCH's (245.62-245.69) was passed.

1975: Coverage of Ambulatory mental health services (outpatient) by private health plans – The
CMCH Act Amendments of 1975 (P.L. 94-63) mandated a more detailed community mental
health center definition emphasizing comprehensiveness and accessibility to all persons
regardless of ability to pay, through the creation of a community governing board and quality
assurance. Required core services expanded from the 1963 levels from 5 to 12, which included
the following: Children Services Elderly Services Screening Services Follow-up Care
Transitional Services Alcohol abuse Services Drug abuse Services.

http://www.mnpsychsoc.org/history%20appendix.pdf

[sandnsea]

103. Narcotics Anonymous is not a treatment program

Methadone doesn't begin to cover all the needed drug and mental health treatment.

You say insurance wasn't necesssary, then post an hhs statement that says private funding increaed care due to health insurance coverage.

From the 1980s to the present, federal funding increased. Yeah, that's right. Primarily in the 90s forward.

What we have today - WE DID NOT HAVE IN 1980 or most of the 80s.

That's what I said. That is true of just about every social service program that exists today. Most of it was implemented in the 70s and 80s.

It did not exist UNDER FDR OR LBJ.

And Obama has increased fuding to all of it.

[Hannah Bell]

106. i didn't say na was a "treatment program," i said it was founded in the 50s.

what we have today we didn't have in the 80s - but we had treatment programs. and NA/the NA method was one of the primary tools in such programs.

1930: The US Public Health Service (PHS) established the Narcotics Division, later named the
Division of Mental Hygiene, bringing together research and treatment programs to combat drug
addiction and study of the causes, prevalence, and means of preventing and treating nervous and
mental disease.

1956: Congress appropriated $12 million for research in the clinical and basic aspects of
psychopharmacology and the Psychopharmacology Service Center was established The number
of consumers in mental hospitals began to decline reflecting the introduction of
psychopharmacology in the treatment of mental illness. The Health Amendments Act authorized
the support of community services for the mentally ill, such as halfway houses, daycare, and
aftercare under Title V.

http://www.mnpsychsoc.org/history%20appendix.pdf

you're full of baloney. you think "insurance" = "care"


and if you look at the actual numbers, obama's increase in "treatment" money is accompanied by a decrease in prevention money, and some of the treatment money is actually surveillance money -- drug testing people in medical care for unrelated reasons & information-collection ("early warning system") at the local level & analysis at the national level. it also includes money for drug courts.

this isn't "treatment," it's data collection & snooping.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/policy/11budget/fy11highlight.pdf

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vgGW11SLtrAJ:sbirt.samhsa.gov/core_comp/screening.htm+sbirt+drug+testing&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[sandnsea]

108. lol, back to the 30s and 50s

It was soooo much better then.

That is such a fucking joke that it really isn't worth a response.

[Hannah Bell]

109. lol, nice straw to avoid the necessity of admitting there were federally-funded drug programs before

1980. as well as privately & community & religiously-funded ones.

here's what you claimed:

"There weren't mental health & drug treatment services in 1980"

you were wrong, get over it.

[sandnsea]

There Is More Than There Ever Has Been

That's what I've said repeatedly in this thread. Your own HHS link states drug treatment didn't start becoming available until the 80s.

Food stamps, btw, wasn't a national program until 1974.

If the poor had it so great in the 60s, why did Bobby Kennedy go on tours all over the country to draw attention to poverty?

It's absolutely ass backwards around here. The ones who "think" they know something are actually the suburban yuppies and go off some ABC Afterschool Special notion of poverty.

The one who DO know something are the ones who live it and I'd take poverty today over poverty at any other time in US history - and so would anybody who KNOWS what the difference really is.

[Hannah Bell]

112. you said THERE WERE NO TREATMENT PROGRAMS BEFORE 1980.

you said it right here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8989860&mesg_id=8993145


You were wrong, get over it & quit trying to cover your error of fact.

it's dishonest.

[sandnsea]

113. And there weren't, NA is NOT treatment

The poster said treatment programs are being shut in his community. Those treatment programs DID NOT exist before 1980. YOUR own post says so. Federal treatment funding for programs that exist in the poster's community became available in the 80s and more in the 90s. More treatment became available as insurance began to cover it.

That information is in YOUR link.

That is just the damn truth. YOU are the one who is being dishonest, pretending there was some social service utopia in the 60s.

Anybody who was alive at the time knows that is simply not true.

I would think anyone who lived as a child in poverty in the 60s would want to serve you up some canned meat surprise from a commodity center.

[Hannah Bell]

115. so dishonest. i linked you to multiple reports of programs other than NA.

i was alive in the 50s & 60s. there were mental health & drug treatment programs.

you're being incredibly dishonest.

[sandnsea]

110. worth duplicating but won't n/t

[dflprincess]

148. Treatment was covered by insurance in 1986

A close relative went through the program at St. Mary's Hospital in Minneapols in 1983 & I know her insurance covered it because in those pre-HIPPA days I handled the paperwork for her. I know I'm right about the date because there was a well known individual in St. Mary's at the same time she was who, unfortunately, back slid fairly soon after leaving the program and I was able to use that person's date of death to confirm when my relative was in the program.

And, at least in the Minneapolis area, the inpatient treatment programs were staffed by professionals. I checked out getting certification for it after I completed my Social Work degree in the middle 70s because it was a booming area for counselors at the time - at least in Minnesota.

[Duncan Grant]

104. Nice try -- and you'll see no apology from me, no matter how big or small a person I am.

Your position in this thread has been one shrill and rude post after another about the abundance of services available -- if people will only go out and find them.

Bullshit. You don't know a damn thing about the availability of contemporary mental health or substance treatment services. And believe me, you trivial annoying pain in the ass, I know what the hell I'm talking about.

As for the availability of mental health and substance treatment services in 1980 -- what point are you trying to make? That everything is so much more accessible and available in 2010? Good god, how pathetic!

You should probably stop digging.

[sandnsea]

107. Hey, people want to go back to the 30s and 60s

There was SOOOO much more help then. Read the thread.

My point is that there wasn't even more help in the 80s, before Clinton supposedly gutted welfare.

And money has been added to the programs with the stimulus.

I responded to an OP that said we all need to dig our own wells and grow our own food because Congress doesn't care anything about the people.

There is more help now than there ever has been. Knowing that and saying that doesn't make ME rude or shrill.

I don't know why so many people on this board love to wallow in gloom and doom and depression. All I know is that there isn't any reason for anyone to come out and vote for a Democrat if all they hear is things were better back during the 1930 Great Depression.

It's insane.

[Hannah Bell]

111. you're full of crap. so much dishonesty in that post. you claimed there were NO TREATMENT PROGRAMS

before 1980.

BALD-FACED BALONEY.

[sandnsea]

114. Methadone and NA are not treatment programs n/t

[Hannah Bell]

116. those are not the only things i linked. you're disingenuous or can't read properly.

oh, & fyi: methadone maintenance & na are mainstays of many drug treatment programs. and they have as good or better success rates than "drug & alcohol counselors".

oh, & fyi: the money in the "treatment" budget that funds drug testing & surveillance isn't "treatment" either - it's a further escalation of the surveillance state, a weapon against the people.

[Prometheus Bound]

88. And over 30 million un/underemployed in America.

I read that in a NY Times column 2 weeks ago so decided to look it up.

Nearly 20 percent of U.S. workers underemployed
In findings that appear to paint a darker employment picture than official U.S. data, Gallup estimated that about 30 million Americans are underemployed, meaning either jobless or able to find only part-time work.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61M1OL20100223

Summary of U.S. Real Unemployment
The number of real unemployed workers in all four categories of unemployment – BLS, part-time-of-necessity, marginally attached, and discouraged – increased by 499,000 to 30.28 million, versus 29.78 million in March. This increase in real unemployed workers of 499,000 jobs contrasts sharply with the 290,000 (non-farm) job or employment increase announced this morning by the BLS. This sharp contrast shows the importance of using all four categories of unemployment and not just the one: BLS shows a non-farm jobs increase of 290,000 jobs, whereas we show 499,000 more workers unemployed, A NEGATIVE SWING OF 789,000 JOBS.
http://www.unionofunemployed.com/blog/recent-news/summary-of-u-s-real-unemployment/

[earth mom]

49. I don't think Congress gives a damn. I think it's gonna be up to the people-each of us helping

where we can, being resourceful, growing some or all of our own food and bartering.

In my own life, I often think about the pioneers and the people who survived the Great Depression-they all did it somehow though it wasn't easy.

This country is full of people who can turn nothing into something which is historically what has made this country so great.

But I worry about those people who can't help themselves for whatever reason-illness, disability, age or lack of education. Those are the people who will fall through the cracks and end up homeless and desperate with little to no options. :cry:

[kentuck]

50. True.

As Rodney Dangerfield said:
"I was five years old before my family stopped feeding me Alpo baby food."

[earth mom]

76. Humor helps too doesn't it?

:D

I also wanted to add that I think the government should give every taxpayer 10-20K as a bailout. It's OUR tax dollars in the first place.

But they won't, so given the government response to Katrina, the bad economy, the Gulf Ecocide and so many other injustices it's obvious that we are on our own.

[TheKentuckian]

59. To Hell freezes and the stars go dead. They got the wink and nod from suburbanite yuppies

to keep on rockin' everything is fine.

If you lose your home, car, and don't always have enough to eat thems the fuckin breaks, there are plenty of programs and bootstraps about.

I hope they are among the first against the wall.

[Hannah Bell]

84. ain't it the truth. the upper-middle liberals & conservatives are both on the same page.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

91. I dunno. Ask the Republicans

I don't think that the Democrats are not concerned nor unaware of the gravity of the situation. I know that some people disagree and believe that most of the Democratic Party is bought and even secretly hoping to be removed from the majority so that they don't have to take responsibility for not getting anything done (even though they have been) but I'm not quite sure what exactly more they can be doing with the Republican's super-obstructionist tactics and a well-financed corporate media apparatus to back them up. The scary thing is that, as bad as things are now, they could also be MUCH worse IMHO. Constantly throwing rocks at the Democrats for their real or perceived inadequacies and blaming THEM for not getting more things done and then refusing to vote for them in November, however, is simply not going to do anybody any good I don't care what anybody else says. What we need to be doing is getting our own house in order and making the case for electing MORE (and better) Democrats and giving the Republicans whom don't want to do their jobs (most of them) what they desire- a permanent vacation- while the rest of us adults do the hard work of governing this country.

[femrap]

93. Very few in DC

will care. As Robt. Kennedy Jr. said '95% of the repugs are corrupt and about 75% of the dems.' And that was a while ago....so I imagine the numbers are higher by now.

The System is rotten to the core.

May TPTB choke on their money.

[Kablooie]

96. The Republicans have complete control of Congress despite being the minority.

Starving and dying Americans have no impact on Republicans.
The only goal they have is to kill and destroy foreigners here at home and in the foreigner's own homelands.

[Supply Side Jesus]

101. Dogs and Cats living together...

that is where i draw the line...

[Orsino]

117. People started dying long ago, and the death rate is very acceptable to today's Congress.

It's mostly poor people, I hear. x(

[OwnedByFerrets]

119. It will take many more than now for the "bubble" to notice. They have theirs.

They remind me of the Scott Trade commercial. They are totally oblivious.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asdjrocky]

142. The meaness I see here is amazing.

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed.

[QC]

144. Yes, it's amazing, but it must never be spoken of! n/t

[bvar22]

145. Foot Stomping, spittle flinging "Let them eat cake" cold hearted meaness.

Insisting the False is True is hard work requiring many, many repetitive posts.

[QC]

146. Ssssssh!

[ChiciB1]

121. Been Asking This Question For A VERY Long Time Now... I HAD Thought

at one time the "red flags" would have been flying higher by now, but still APATHY seems to reign! I have pretty much lost my optimism as to whether ANY ACTION is going to be taken! Ignoring the problem seems to be in vogue for those who aren't affected, and ESPECIALLY our Representatives & WH in D.C.!

Democrats have now begun to be called the "Wimp" Party, and so many of my friends have wondered for some time now where they fit in. Just yesterday TWO of my Democratic friends simply stated and came to some sort of agreement that they basically think they no longer can affiliate themselves with the Democratic Party!

While they have been Democrats and only Democrats in their lifetime, they have come to the conclusion that they feel like they really can only look to the Independents as a viable alternative! And, living where I live I KNOW they, as I, won't vote in our upcoming Primary here in Florida! THEY have decided to vote in the General for Crist, no ifs, ands or buts because of the FEAR they feel that if Rubio wins it will only be WORSE for Florida!

I myself HAVEN'T decided to vote for Crist yet as I'm still waiting to see how things go after the Primary! I've been flooded with calls from Jeff Greene, because he has MORE money than Meek and CAN afford more robo-calls. I've been the political head in my family and have tried to keep them interested in voting, but even some of them have decided they don't think it REALLY matters anymore! All of us worked VERY hard to elect Democrats but feel betrayed and IT'S NOT OUR FAULT!

THIS Democratic Party has let too many of us down! My goal at this point in time is to get them to vote in the General, but not sure I'll be able to! I WILL get an absentee ballot and encourage my family to do so because at least they won't have to take time out of their schedule to go to their polling place! THEY ARE THAT APATHETIC, and that says a lot! I have a daughter & son who are both married and are Democrats along with their spouses, but I'm having a hard time keeping them in the loop!

Too many just don't TRUST voting anymore and with this attitude, given America's will to vote will further diminish turnout! I wonder if the Democrats lose this November if it will send a REAL MESSAGE to our "now" Democrats, but you know I REALLY wonder! Clinton robo-called, as did Pelosi asking me to vote for Meek, but Meek is just another Rahm "chosen" and I saw all too clearly what happened to Christine Jennings in the past! And I wasn't even THAT crazy about voting for her! Still, she lost and they dropped her like a hot potato, just like they will Meek when HE LOSES!

So, I can't FAULT my relatives for what they feel, but I DO fault our Democrats for not helping "we the people" as a once great Party seemed to do in the past! So WHO DO WE BLAME??

Forgive my tirade, but I'm just at a loss for WHAT TO DO!!

JMHO!!

[kentuck]

122. All I can say...

It can get much, much worse. And Republicans will prove it.

[mother earth]

123. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs and any programs to create jobs, jobs

jobs, jobs, jobs and yes, more JOBS.

TPTB do get it, we don't, because they are protecting profits for their campaign donors. This is that big sucking sound Ross Perot crowed about back in the day, to level down wages and benefits and whatever else they can cram into their corporate wishlists. Marie Antoinette's "Let them eat cake...", and we all remember how that ended, now don't we?

It is broke, and they aren't fixing it.

Like Grayson's portrayal of the GOP health care obstructionists...the message is clear "hurry up and die".

[skepticscott]

124. Before we teach people how to dig wells and grow food

maybe we should teach them how to live without cell phones and cable internet and DVRs and Starbucks and multiplexes full of crap movies and countless other frivolous luxuries that they have come to regard as entitlements.

[Bluenorthwest]

128. Much of this thread is about people being homeless

and in utter poverty. You think people who are living in a car have cable and go to Starbucks? Where do they install the cable box? I hope that all in that horrible spot have a cell phone, which for the homeless is a lifeline, a way to seek employment, the absolute opposite of a 'frivolous luxury'. It is a basic need. Teaching people with nothing how to live with less is not really a workable plan.

[ChiciB1]

133. Here, Here... THE HOMELESS Are Growing Larger & Larger As A Group!

I personally have seen it up close & personal. I've been one who has tried to donate my time to help where I can, but even the outlets that were offering assistance to them have reached the point where even THEY are hard pressed to help! Public assistance, churches and places of that sort are unable to keep up with demand!

In the past year I've seen people lose their jobs in my neighborhood and are scraping by. My neighborhood is simply what was once called "middle class" but we are now seeing more houses up for sale, while some of my neighbors are feeling a real squeeze. And even though I don't live in the upper class neighborhoods, my county is either No. 2 or 3 in per capita income! So I know we aren't even seeing close to the worst of it!

There are still people around here who have mega bucks! There are some rather famous people who live on the Gulf Coast up the street from me. Stephen King even has a winter home not far from me. And he's ONLY ONE person I'll mention! I also personally know of another very well known person who owned several homes here and is now "dumping" them rather than pay the taxes!!

THEY can afford to do this and write them off, but those of us who don't come close to knowing what it's like to have that kind of money, don't have any luxury of "dumping" anything!!

So, in the end, as it has been for such a long time... it's all about MONEY!!

[Zoeisright]

126. Citizens already are dying.

Just look at the 45,000 Americans who die every year because they don't have health insurance.

Repukes don't give a flying fuck about anybody other than themselves, rich white men, and the unborn fetus.

[Myrina]

127. ... only when Halliburton gets into the 'public housing' industry ...

... and can find a way to make a profit off of providing shelter (at the govt's expense of course) for all the people currently living on - or close to it - the streets.

[proReality]

129. It has to happen to them before they even begin to acknowledge the problem.

Some people are born with selective blindness and without a sympathy gene, caring only for themselves.

[Joe Chi Minh]

131. Grapes of Wrath II. Maybe Michael Moore should make a documentary with

that title.

I remember when I read the original, as a lad, it seemed astonishing that people could have starved to death like that in the US in the 20th century.

[colsohlibgal]

135. Incredibly Bad

Worse than the thirties, in the thirties we didn't have Faux News all over the place - and actually the other corporate news folks aren't a lot better at showing public unrest other than crazy tea party nuts. All MSN have almost totally refused to cover even massive anti war rallies, and they all bent over backward to block shots during Dubya's first coup inauguration so as not to show the bevy of people there protesting that coup.

The wing nut captured republican party has shown they couldn't care less about the plight of starving/homeless people as long as their rich masters are taken care of. The democrats are overrun by people who are a combination of being sell outs and/or being afraid of their own shadow.

It may take so many people in the street marching that it would make the civil rights gatherings in the 60's look like a small gathering.

[totodeinhere]

139. Sadly, the average Republican doesn't care in the least how many people starve and die.

And they won't agree to raising their taxes even one penny to fund programs to serve the hungry and homeless. That's just the way it is. Yet some of those same people have the temerity to call themselves Christians. And for that matter, there are DLC types infecting the Democratic Party who aren't much better.

[QC]

147. Some Democrats don't seem too concerned, either. n/t