Do you believe in freedom of religion?

[Electric Monk]

[IntravenousDemilo]

1. How about one that says "Yes, as long as it also means freedom from religion" ? n/m

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. First Amendment implies it.

And the founders, a few, more than a few, were deists... and hated establishing their religion over others.

[IntravenousDemilo]

64. Well, you may wish to INFER that, and I may wish to infer it as well...

... but we're bound to find some disagreement from others who infer differently from us. Oh, and speaking of "others", as in "and hated establishing their religion over others", did you mean other religions or other people who might or might not also include the non-religious?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. The Establishment clause is quite clear

not mincing of words needed. The Government will not establish an official church. That means not favoring anybody, that includes non believers.

Now if you are thinking of the Cold War, that is when it got a little mushy with that under god clause... and every time it's been tested in the courts, at least in the recent past, courts find in favor of non believers. The last case was oh two years ago in the Ninth Circuit...

That is why this is a fight though, a few in this country cannot believe that this was not a Christian country... see Dominionist and reconstructionists, who are a threat to our country, a clear and present danger. There, I said it.

[Arugula Latte]

4. Yeah, freedom FROM religion, now wouldn't that be nice?

*sigh*

[pnorman]

9. Obama had already stated that.

n/t

[AnArmyVeteran]

16. Amen :)

[pipoman]

35. Good luck with that if you happen to not have insurance or money

and need health care in my area of the country.

[proteus_lives]

13. You already have that.

[ThomCat]

24. Not in many places in this country.

Not in our military academies, and not for many of our people in our active duty military right now.

Not for anyone trying to run for public office right now in the US, nor or at prior time any time in our history so far.

George H. W. Bush actually stated as part of his campaign for president in 1980 that he did not believe that Atheists should be considered patriots, or even citizens, because this is "one nation under God."

He got No political flack for that, and Never apologized for that remark, ever.

Can you imaging making a remark like that about people who believed in any major world religion, and getting away with it without even having to issue the basic insincere "I misspoke" apology?

There is only recently a lot of pressure for Atheists to finally get some rights and respect. But it certainly hasn't happened yet.

[proteus_lives]

29. No one has ever forced religion on me.

And I went to a Catholic school for awhile, they knew I and my family was none-religious. We never caught any flack for it.

"Not for anyone trying to run for public office right now in the US, nor or at prior time any time in our history so far."

And that attitude will change. How many people thought they would see a black president in their lifetime? But it's not law either, there is nothing stopping an Atheist from running for public office. You're talking culture, not the law of the land.

That was Bush's opinion, not law.

You have rights as an atheist but the majority culture is biased against you.

That will change, as all things do.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. They force their religion on gay people constantly

They use the full force of hyperbolic slander, the color of divine authority, and a twisting of the law to do so.

[JNelson6563]

79. Not to split hairs or anything

But there are states with laws on the books about atheists being barred from holding elected office.

Julie

[ThomCat]

20. Amen!

[Milo_Bloom]

69. ^^^^ That ^^^^

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

3. i believe ini freedom from religion - very different

we do not have either

[Dr.Phool]

33. Ditto.

[MrSlayer]

5. Yes.

I would rather see religion disappear completely of course. But as far as it goes I am completely in favor of freedom of religion with no unreasonable limitations.

[dkf]

6. Religion as a source of political power is scary.

Freedom from religion is what I want.

[Sapphocrat]

7. Can't answer until "freedom" is defined.

Living a lifetime being battered over the head by the phrase "freedom of religion" as an untouchable excuse for others to maintain my second-class citizenship, I have come to realize that for many it means less "freedom to believe anything you want" and more "freedom to oppress anybody who doesn't agree with you."

Your freedom to worship Xenu, believe you're really eating flesh and blood, or wear panties that protect you from satanic spirits -- as long as you don't try to make me clear my body thetans, cannibalize a corpse, or wear demon-repellent clothing -- that kind of "freedom of religion" I support, 100%.

The latter -- and, in my world, more frequent -- definition, has unfortunately, tainted my perspective on the phrase, irreparably.

So, can't answer. The phrase is too large a catch-all.

(I assume you're referring to the strict definition in the First Amendment, and alluding to the Islamic center, but you didn't specify.)

[Electric Monk]

10. just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin nt

:shrug:

[aquart]

53. You got it.

Non-specificity is a bear trap. I find it's really important to make people define terms themselves. Not allow them to wave an airy hand at the first amendment or any other. Make them tell you what they think the words mean.

[UrbScotty]

8. Other: HECK YES!!!

[southerncrone]

11. I don't believe in religion.

[LostInAnomie]

12. I wish religion and the idea of God would just go away.

We'd be better off.

[proteus_lives]

14. Somehow I doubt it.

Humans would continue being humans, religion or not.

[LostInAnomie]

15. Yeah, but it would at least take away...

... one unfalsifiable justification to act inhumanly towards others... until someone can invent another one.

[Electric Monk]

17. Your post made me think of Dr. Seuss's "The Sneetches"

Yeah, he wrote books for children, LOL.

[Axle_techie]

45. they would think of it pretty fast...

Land, money, oil, shiny metals, oceanfront property, etc.

Not everyone who has a religion uses it as justification to act inhumanly, and a lot of those who do use it thus have badly misread their holy texts.

[LanternWaste]

80. A justification will always be found...

"until someone can invent another one..."

Politics, economics systems, nationalism, lebensraum, Manifest Destiny, "national interests", "freedom from...", philosophies, et. al.

A justification will always be found (and historically, has always been found) if sought for eagerly enough.

[pipoman]

18. Tired of all the hate religion/Christians/Muslims shit, I am..

I believe it would be much more difficult and potentially unhealthy to live as so many on DU believe, "free from religion". The truth is that much of this country's infrastructure is funded in whole or in part by religious groups. Religious groups in the US have a binding commitment to invest in our social network. I can think of no other groups in the US....in fact, the world, that has the adhesive ties which generate $billions for charitable causes. This money is generated through investment of tithed funds to needed services, then billing for those services. Hospitals, social services, underprivileged food and clothing distribution, homeless shelters, and the list goes on are all funded by religious charities/nonprofits. Don't like it? Well, at the point in time when you need a blood transfusion, or a meal that really doesn't matter does it? Now while I have only spoken of "religious groups", in the US these "religious groups" are largely Christian? Still don't like it? Well, suit yourself, I think for me and my family, we will be thankful that we have these services available in our community and use them if we need to. Attribution of every bad thing in our society and the world, to Religion, is really disingenuous without acknowledgment of all of the really good things done by people of faith.

[Electric Monk]

21. Those can be called "taxes" in some cultures.

Y'know, collective money for the common good. From those who can, to those who need. Whoops, am I going all commie now?

[pipoman]

22. I don't disagree, that won't help you if you live in Illinois and need

a CT scan now will it?

[niyad]

23. you mean like the catholic hospitals which refuse to perform medical procedures

or give, for example, plan b to a rape victim? to not even inform her of that option? you mean like the catholic boarding schools into which indigenous children were forced, where their hair was cut off, and they were forced to disavow their own heritage? you mean the religious groups that discriminate against gays? against women? THOSE religious groups?


and I have news for you--there are a lot of charitable groups out that, religious and otherwise, that are NOT christian.

[pipoman]

27. Hate away, just don't you dare use their services or you are a

hypocrite.

[niyad]

30. so listing what these wonderful organizations have done is "hating"?

seems like we touched a nerve here, which is most interesting. as is your ordering me not to use these services. most amusing indeed, since you cannot deny the truth of what I wrote.

[pipoman]

34. To the exclusion of the vast good they have also done

and continue to do? Yep, that would be hating on them in my opinion. As for the truth of what you wrote? It is your truth. I can say that it is true, undoubtedly, that these hospitals don't provide every service known to humans for whatever the reason, nobody seems to complain about the heart hospital not doing colonoscopies. Touch a nerve? That is funny. I don't have any connection to any religious group, only understand the reality of my area. If I need certain services, I will be using services provided by these groups and you will too. Will you be thankful those services are available to you if you need to use them? My question is, can you deny the truth of what I have written?

[niyad]

73. "the truth as I see it"-- you have got to be kidding with that statement--and if you aren't, then

you have so little knowledge of what the christian organizations do that you have no business trying to discuss the matter. if you don't know about pedophile priests--if you don't know how catholic hospitals treat women, if you don't know about the actions of the churches with regard to the indigenous peoples, etc., etc., then I suggest you start doing some serious google searching.

telling the truth about these organizations is NOT hate. you want to defend them, you go right ahead, most of us know the truth about them.

[Axle_techie]

77. Not every church does that, though

that would be like saying that all Muslims are terrorists because of a few radical imams and some Muslim charities that give to "terrorist organizations".

[pipoman]

78. It is certainly your option not to use their services

as I said above, if you do while hating them, well if that doesn't define hypocritical I guess I don't understand the word.

Not one of your posts points out that faith funded services in the US are a necessary part of our health care infrastructure. Nor that faith based charities contribute more charitable dollars than any other non governmental group on the planet. So why don't you start providing these needed services and deem the faith based services unnecessary?

[sabrina 1]

49. You have told only a partial truth. While listing the bad things

some groups have done, you might have listed all the good things they've done. That's your choice.

Human beings will always do both good and bad things. Even if there was no such thing as religion, human beings would still find ways to oppress other human beings, because of the color of their skin, their social status, their disabilities or whatever.

If human beings who claim to be Christians eg, were to adhere to the teachings of the man they claim to be followers of, it would be a far better world. It is not the religion itself that causes the bad things to happen. It is the humans who latch on to these religions and use them to further their own selfish causes and prejudices.

The common denominator in all the bad things that happen in this world is humans, not religion. If you can change human beings, make them more compassionate, more empathetic, more intelligent and more courageous, religion would not matter.

[niyad]

76. I didn't have to list any of the good things, since the poster to whom I was responding was doing

that, so there would have been no point for me to be repetitious.

I notice that the poster could not deny the truth of what I was saying, either, as these facts are well-known to anyone who knows the real history of these organizations.

[sohndrsmith]

19. I got an error when I tried to vote, (which was "YES. Period.")

... Not sure what other answer I'd consider valid without thinking the Constitution/BOR are documents that I, personally, have the right to massage "on <blank> specific point but not this other <blank> specific point". True, I believe the writers of these documents and the documents themselves are living, fluid documents that need to be amended to the times so that the core meaning is preserved which can only be done if described and relating to issues current to the period...

The second view isn't remotely similar to the first idea of opportunistic picking and choosing - which seems to be the current addiction/obsession of too many outspoken political goofballs these days. I think there may be a lot of deliberately confusing such seemingly similar perspectives (but are hardly so) for self-serving or party serving objectives.

Wow. I feel the urgent need for a shower after writing this... blecch... ugliness abounds these days, doesn't it?

What amazes me is how blatantly hypocrisy is promoted - without so much as an iota of care or conscience. Did I say "by Republicans"? There are bad actors in both parties, but the R's seem to be the culprits almost exclusively on dismantling and manipulating without care for the devastating effects.

In some ways, it seems that this is actually their objective - total dismantling/failure of this country as a whole... after which which they would just step in and save the day. ...I guess? Yikes! I just scared myself to death...

[name not needed]

25. No. My extremist sect of Christianity is the only true path.

:sarcasm:

[Skittles]

26. I don't care whatever nonsense people want to believe

as long as they are not thumping it to me

[ismnotwasm]

28. Sure

And all religions are equal in my eyes, there isn't one that impresses me more any than another.

That only caveat on 'freedom' from me would be a requirement to respect human rights; a few examples would be not cutting off women's genitalia, not interfering with folks who want to marry, regardless of gender, respecting a woman's right to choose, not using whatever Deity one worships as an excuse, or even a cheerleader, for war.

[old mark]

31. Yes-period - I do not believe in religion or in god in the conventional sense at all, but

I support everyone's right to beileve in any nonsense they wish, no matter how laughable it may be, so long as EVERYONE has that right, as well as the right to believe in none of it and to criticise and laugh at all of it. I believe religions have all been terrible things in their turn and have killed more people than any other cause or "reason" in our history. I believe that believing in a religion is nothing to be proud of, but is a declaration of fear and lesser intelligence and lack of respect for science and reality, but that's just my belief, which is protected by our Constitution and is as valid as the beliefs of the fucking Archbishop of fucking New York, whoever the hell he may be, the asshole.

mark

[still_one]

32. How about freedom from religion? /nt

[Axle_techie]

36. The funny thing about freedom from religion

is that atheism has all the basic attributes of a religion as well...

[Electric Monk]

37. what? 3L16

:hi:

[Axle_techie]

41. um... What is 3L16?

[Axle_techie]

39. Also, if there is freedom of religion, I should not have to drive

down the highway and see billboards saying things like imagine no God.

[Electric Monk]

40. Call me stupid, but connect the dots for me on this one please?

:shrug:

[Axle_techie]

42. here is a link

http://coloradoindependent.com/16513/just-try-it-%E2%80%94-imagine-no-religion

[Electric Monk]

44. Thanks, and g'night as well nt

[Axle_techie]

46. night

[ZombieHorde]

47. In your opinion, what are the basic attributes of a religion?

In my opinion, the basic attribute of a religion is a belief in a supernatural entity or process which helps to define morality.

[Axle_techie]

48. It is

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

[ZombieHorde]

51. Atheism is not something one believes in, atheism is simply not believing in god(s).

Not believing in god is similar to not believing in other supernatural entities, such as Spiderman or the Smurfs. Is not believing in Spiderman similar to a religion? I don't think so.

[Axle_techie]

57. SPIDERMAN IS TO A GOD

may you forever be wrapped in webs...


But seriously, I have met atheists who preach that there are no gods, just as I have met christians who preach that there is one. When you believe in something enough to want to change peoples minds because your way is the right way, you are religious.

[donco6]

54. When a definition excludes nothing, it's not much use. n/t

[Axle_techie]

58. It's from the dictionary, looked it up on dictionary.com

there were about 12 others, but that one fit how I view it, so that is the one I posted.

[ZombieHorde]

38. Legally yes, but I often wonder if people truly chose to believe or not believe. nt

[Axle_techie]

43. Some do, others are indoctrinated, unfortunately

[HEyHEY]

50. Of course

Just keep it outta my face.

[lonestarnot]

52. And I like pie too.

[H2O Man]

55. Yes, and

I do enjoy some fish & finger pie on Penny Lane.

[TexasObserver]

56. Mother Freedom

Mother Freedom
By Bread

Freedom, keep walking
Keep on your toes and
Don't stop talking 'bout
Freedom, get going
Lots to be learned and
Lots to be knowin' 'bout

People, gotta reach 'em
Sit 'em right down and then
You gotta teach 'em 'bout
Freedom, gotta win it
Gotta put yourself smack dab in it

Hey, tomorrow
Hey, don't you go away
Cause freedom
Just might come your way

Freedom, keep trying
People stay alive and
People keep dying for
Freedom, so don't lose it
You gotta understand
You just can't abuse it
Freedom, get moving
Never gonna stop 'til
Everybody's grooving on
Love for one another
Calling some friend
And calling some brother

Hey, tomorrow
You're not so far away
Mother freedom
We'll know you well someday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkE8jpPMuf8

Good tunes are my religion.

[krabigirl]

59. Yes.

[LWolf]

60. Yes, as long as that freedom ends at the tip of one's nose, and

does not extend beyond the personal into the lives of others.

[Lance_Boyle]

62. I believe in a personal freedom of religion provided an individual's practice of same

infringes no one else's rights. I do not believe in freedom of (or government protection for) religious institutions. Freedom of religion is a personal liberty. Religious institutions are not persons any more than any other corporations are, regardless of what the retarded fucking supreme court says.

[Umbral]

63. No, but I do believe in freedom from religion. nt

[realisticphish]

65. I believe in a 100% secular state

one which not only does not have a state religion, but totally ignores religion and religious issues.

Gay marriage? Absolutely no secular reason to not do so. Done.

DADT? No secular reason to have it. Done

No tax-exempt status for religious institutions.

No funding for religious organizations, regardless of intention (might be willing to waver on this one)

No prayer in any government function, including inaugurations.


Priest molests someone? Arrest them immidiately.




Beyond that, I truly do not give a shit about what people believe.

[w8liftinglady]

66. i would like to do away with THIS one

http://www.wckkkk.org/identity.html

The White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is a Christian Identity Klan. I realize that most people have no understanding into what Christian Identity means.

Identity Christian simply implies that we identify our race as being the true descendants of the Israelite people. I understand that most people have been educated to believe that the jewish people are God’s chosen people. Christians have even gone as far as to call themselves judeo-christians, they become extremely hostile at the Klan whenever this subject is mentioned. But, we are followers of Christ and even if our beliefs are unpopular, they are still correct. I am constantly told that Christ was a jew. That Moses and Abraham were jews, but, this belief is incorrect.

clip
White people have practiced segregation throughout History. It is conclusive to believe this due to the fact the White Race has flourished throughout History rather than dwindling such as we are during this time of accepted race-mixing. The inequalities of the Races have never been more apparent than that in the Bible.

clip
The White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has a very clear and simple understanding on the subject of homosexuality. Homosexuality is a perversion of nature and a filthy, diseased and perverted lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot reproduce, so it is only logical that they recruit others into their perverted lifestyle. One of the ways in which they do this is in shopping malls and other public gathering locations. Police officers will tell you that homosexual predators will hang out in shopping malls and similar type locations looking for young teenagers that are in a partying mood and supply the finances for the party to get close to the youth. They hang around youth centers and music concerts and one of the newest and sickest ways of recruiting is now through adoption. When two men or two women adopt a child it only stands to reason that the child will be raised as a homosexual or lesbian. Homosexuals will deny these alegations of perverted recruitment but they have been proven to be true time and time again. This perverted practice of adoption is all to clear, common sense tells us that when a man or woman raises a child, they raise that child to the standard both moral and sexual that their lifestyle mirrors.

[earth mom]

67. I believe in freedom FROM religion. nt

[frogmarch]

71. Same here! nt

[TroglodyteScholar]

68. My impulse is to say 'yes'...

...but ultimately, I really wish people would quit taking mythology for fact. When will the rest of us acknowledge that the Tooth Fairy has outlived his usefulness?

[NMMNG]

70. True freedom of religion, yes

And that includes freedom from religion.

We have neither at this point in time.

[pitohui]

74. less & less these days

i didn't answer the poll, i think in the long run, we've got to stop humoring religion and it starts w. ending "freedom of religion, freedom from taxes," etc.

no religious person is willing for me to be free, even the most liberal expects me to pay taxes they don't pay

[spanone]

75. doesn't matter, it's the law