On populism and the rich (CLinton)

[nadinbrzezinski]

After reading many threads, and posting in many, here is a question for DU... consider it carefully.

So when is the revolutio startingn? And I mean the REAL revolution?

And I am being serioius here, and who is leading it? The RIGHT WING POPULISTS, or the LEFT WING POPULISTS? I mean if that is what you want... a message board is not the place.

Me, as a Historian I get it. And I will say something that you will not like. But this rage and populist rage (justified in many respects) can get really uggly and both RIGHT WING (read tea party roots) and left wing populists can and have gotten into a few revolts during the history of this country. So when does the shooting start? And are you gonna tar and feathers the rich?

I am serious.

I am getting ammused at this point, at all the dog whistles on both sides.

For the right it is the ever so popular... THEY ARE RACISTS = The Negro is out to get you! (Yes I meant to use the N Word, because that is what they mean)

For the left it is quickly... Trickle Down = Eat the rich.

Both have nothing to do with the ACTUAL meaning of the words on the page, but are understood by the base on each side.

Oh and on a true historic note... revolt might be the only way you will get REAL reform... but who is leadying with the pitchforks? And have any of you considered what happens when that hapepns? I mean a real reign of terror is possible... and no revolution, I mean the real deal not what many keyboard commandos believe it is, is exactly what you imagine.

As far as the Clontons are concerned, have a good wedding, and SPEND DOUBLE in it... yep, you heard me right. But that is why economically I WANT then to spend as much as posisble, and get separated from their money... even if it may not pass the DU ideological purity test. There are solid economic reasons, ala economnics... I guess it is even more alien to people here than I suspected, until now. When actual terms that have meaning (Trickle down) become dog whisltes separated from the actual meaning. SCARY.

So when is the revolt starting? I am serious. When is the shooting starting? The feathers. the home spun... the buying coffee instead of tea... when is that starting? In a modern equivalent of course.


What is more. I wonder how many of our keyboard commandos even know what those terms mean, or have the basic curiousity to go look it up, or just ask questions. But if you are so horrified (and you should) there is more to changing things and dynamics than just posting your anger on a message board... home spun might be a way, for example, to protest the sending away of American jobs to make shirts... or buying from LOCAL merchants if you need a bag from recycled material... I could go on... so when is the revolution starting?

And how much blood should I expect?

Or should I expect the Internets to serve the same role as the West served in 19th Century America? I don't expect you to get the reference, since they don't teach no history in them schools no more... suffice it to say that the US did not develop class consciousness and remained more or less peaceful insofar as class was concerned, since people could go on to the West, searching for land. I guess these days it is a virtual west, and that goes for BOTH here and the 180 of this place... right wing polulism and left wing populism though have a little more in common than EITHER realizes.

But hey... I will be waiting for the revolution to start. Given how things are, not until they cancel the TV I suspect...

[ThomWV]

1. May ask you a personal question?

Who do you work for as an Historian? Do you teach, write for a living, or are you employed to work in the field elsewhere; in Government perhaps?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I've done research for a US Senator and a US Congressman

and I am in the process of working on a history of labor and trying to get a job teaching locally.

At one time I did teach as a GTA, and as a Paramedic Instructor for the Mexicaon Red Cross I prepared both the history sections fo the training and the Laws of Land Warfare. (Appart of the normal suspects for EMTs)

[democrat2thecore]

12. History of Labor! Good for you. A forgotten cause by too many

If there was ever a time for labor to once again ORGANIZE. It is now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. That is one of the reasons

I am geting to sit ring side to that mess. My hubby is a blue collar worker, and I see it... his Union is no longer able to get things they need... and the less effective the unions are the more abuses that will occur and the smaller the unions will become.

[democrat2thecore]

17. That's why the word "labor" needs to mean more than "blue-collar"

Anybody working for big business, not getting decent wages, benefits, etc. are today's "labor" class. Workers are just as likely to be in a cubicle or behind a fast food counter as in a mine these days. ALL workers need to ORGANIZE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. And it has to happen across borders

Samuel Gompers got that oh in the 1880s, and so did Marx... but when companies go international, workers need to go international too.

[OHdem10]

3. It is coming.--the revolution---do not know the day nor the hour.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. The last major threat of one

as in the 1930s, why a not so liberal president pushed for the passage of liberal legislation pushed by OTHER parties originally. No, Social Security was NOT a Democratic Platform item in the beggining.

The mere threat, if loud enough, may lead to the desired changes.

But as to it is comming... been hearing this for the last eight years... so sorry if I ma a little skeptical at this point.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. There's not going to be one of those revolutions. Despite the fantasies of a lot of silly people.

The romanticizing some here will engage in of the French Revolution, for instance. Any real student of history knows the icky truth; that thing didn't turn out so well. Best laid plans, and all that.

Things are changing, to be sure- but this idea that all of a sudden the proletariat will wake up and start quoting Marx and Engels- it's a fucking dorm room fantasy, and it's been around for a looooooong time. There were people like that when *I* was in college, and I'm old. Like the song says, "if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao...".

The reality is quite different. Far better to work with the grown ups on forward-thinking solutions to all our problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. The Protetariat in the US didn't really wake up

any day and do what workers did around the world. The closest was probably the Hay Market Affair, which gave us May Day. The American response... the American Federation of Labor, and a retreat from politics for two generations.

Americans don't know their history very well. Which is also part of the problem by the by.

[Cal33]

71. In Europe, all one has to do is to drive in any one direction for a

few hours, and one arrives at the border of a different country. People can't
help but become aware and more accepting of differences that exist. Here
in the U.S. there are only two neighbors, and for most people both are so far
away. We are sort of "isolated." And this kind of isolation tends to make
us less aware in general, and also not as accepting of differences. I've lived
quite a few years in Europe. I'd have to say that the average European knows
quite a bit more of what's going on in the rest of the world than we do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. And the same thing happens in other countries

including Canada and Mexico.

Isolationism is part of the American DNA... and that is another thing that might have to change... but it is an echo going back all the way to the Colonial period.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. Speaking of keyboards

did you type this out on your phone?

:beer:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Ah instead of adressing the post

you go for grammar...

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. It was nearly impossible to read.

So when is the revolutio startingn?
And I am being serioius here,
can get really uggly
I am getting ammused at this point,
And are you gonna tar and feathers the rich?
but who is leadying with the pitchforks?
have any of you considered what happens when that hapepns?
As far as the Clontons are concerned,
There are solid economic reasons, ala economnics..
right wing polulism

Seriously - you have good points to make, and inasmuch as I can understand you, I agree with you. Just take your time so your message doesn't get lost.

:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Using IE

and the spell checker is not working the way it should.

[Ruby the Liberal]

36. I hear ya. I dumped IE a year ago for Google Chrome

it catches everything, is lightening fast, and consumes less memory than either IE or Firefox.

http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/landing_chrome.html?hl=enhttp://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/landing_chrome.html?hl=en

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Installed it this morning

used it in the mac for a while, but I have yet to sign on DU with it.

And firefox just refuses to work these days... though I love Equake

[Ruby the Liberal]

41. There may be an equake compatible for Chrome

many sites I visit give me the 'unsupported browser' message for Chrome, but other than embedded Windows Media files, I have had no problem bypassing it.

I follow a quake/tsunami monitor on Twitter. Invaluable resource if you are on that feed. @EQTW www.twitter.com/EQTW

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Thanks, I am using it now

and just as fast as on the macbook

[Warren DeMontague]

7. There's already been a lot of revolutions, that's part of the problem for some people.

Especially for people who are still trying to use tired 19th and 20th century answers for 21st century problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. We may actually get one

and just as ugly as Robespierre's little party... peak oil\ food shortages...

But the great communees that we have been experimenting with since oh the Colony at Roanoke... ain't gonna happen.

And that is the reality most people don't know about.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. And, an asteroid could hit the Earth and kill us all.

There has been an awful lot of doomsaying over the course of Human history. Sorry, I'm not subscribing to it, just yet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Peak Oil and Global Weather Change are real

What we do about it though will either lead to very serious disasters, see that Roberpierre party, or things not going that bad. Of course the ultimate worst case is human extinction. THat is not a matter of if, but when. 99% of all life on earth, has already gone extinct. That is biology.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Global weather change is real, yes. And oil is a finite resource, yes.

99% of life on Earth, over the course of its history? Yes. Saying "99% of life on Earth has gone extinct" is a misleading statement, however. It's not life on Earth if its extinct, furthermore, most of that extinction happened with no help from the hairless primate known as man. The dinosaurs, for instance.(Most human beings who ever lived are NOW DEAD, too.! :o :o :o)

We have problems, yes, but I don't think that they are as dire as you paint them. And I think human extinction is an extreme unlikelihood (in the short term- if we don't leave the planet in the next 4 billion years, it's a certainty) much to the chagrin of the crowd here that thinks the universe "hates us and wishes we would go away".

Realistically, the climate is changing and will change- the exact impact of that change, however, is still unknown. The best course of action is to mitigate it as much as possible. Same with, oil will undeniably start to run out. If climate change weren't a factor, there are probably other carbon heavy fuel sources we could turn to, at least for a time- coal, or oil shale, for instance. There are options, but they're not good ones due to, again, climate change.

Clearly, we need new ways of powering our society, and we need better solutions for the CO2 that is out there. These are big problems, and they are problems that will get worse if we ignore them, but they are NOT insurmountable.

For the people who really, truly, genuinely believe otherwise-- that there is NO hope- honestly, why bother? Might as well get a bottle of scotch or some smack and watch the whole thing collapse with a good buzz on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I am just giving you a worst case scenario about

both of these. As a disaster manager we had to plan for the absolute worst case knowing that rarely, if ever, we had to deal with the worst case.

That said, as to the extinction. The current rate of extinction is accelerating, and it is now blamed on a hairless monkey by some biologists. To the point that just as the one that happened to the dinosaurs... no it wasn't just an asteroid, it is now seen as a mass extinction. In fact, the sixth mass extinction.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. It was a mass extinction. Caused by an asteroid impact.

That's not "just" an asteroid, it was a pretty big deal.

But, extinctions, even mass ones, are a fairly regular occurrence on this planet, and while our environmental impact is certainly appreciable, we are certainly not the "worst" thing to happen to the planet, nor to life on it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Current research is increasingly showing that the

asteroid came at the worst possible moment. As in the Dinos were already under incredible pressure form other factors, such as weather change, and populations coming together and making each other sick.

This is VERY RECENT research into what other factors played a role. No, it wasn't a small factor... it was a major factor, but not just the only factor. And in fact one arm of that family survived. I share my home with those descendants, we just call them birds.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. I know. I have dino descendant poop on my car.

The jury is still out as to the exact circumstances regarding the the K/T extinction event, (it is science, after all) but regarding "very recent" research, as of March of this year, you had "a panel of 41 scientists (agreeing) yhat the Chicxulub asteroid impact triggered the mass extinction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous%E2%80%93Tertiary_extinction_event

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/327/5970/1214

That's not to say the Dinosaurs didn't have other problems. But they managed for a lot longer than we have, until that asteroid hit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Of course they did

but the K-T Impact is now seen as part of what led to it. The discussion, given the nasty germ warfare we have found, is whether they would have been able to survive otherwise, aka if all other elements where not there.

And that is what they are arguing about.

As to most species, even among dinos, the average per species is about half a million years before a species goes away or further evolves.

We have about 100,000, so we have some time to go if we don't manage to commit species suicide in the many creative ways we could.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. We are in uncharted territory. The planet has seen many things, but it's never seen anything quite

like us before.

That's not to say "we're great, we're indestructible", it's also not to say "we're going to destroy all life on this planet"; I certainly do think we COULD become extinct, but I doubt we could take all life with us. Life will survive, and odds are, we will too. The question is, what sort of life will we have? What sort of civilization? Will we continue to move forward, or will we retreat? Will we move off the planet and into the solar system and beyond? Will we solve our problems, or run away from them?

I'm an optimist. I think this is far and away the most exciting time to be alive in all of human history. Despite the size of our problems, I think we can solve them. All of them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Oh life will survive, it has over the last few billion years

And perhaps, being tool makers, will beat the odds... but extinction is something that will happen... whether it comes by being stupid, or homo sapiens evolving into something else. Just like Homo Abilis did, and the rest of the branch.

I found the recent research into the dinos and diseases and land bridges bringing isolated populations together amazing. Perhaps when all is said and done they will decide the K-T impact was just the finishing touch, or perhaps this was so huge (the atmosphere literally caught fire) that no matter what else was there... it was enough.

I am reminded though they are not gone, when the parrots demand or beg for steak. The way the Nanday in particular shreds it... I can certainly see a dino doing that. So perhaps some day they will tell us one branch survived and dinos still live with us. We are already told this, but in a more obvious way... and let's stop being afraid of evolution and science.

I don't know about you, but I love it.

Oh and no K-T, perhaps it would be an intelligent dino that developed tools...

[Warren DeMontague]

58. No K/T Chixiclub impact, this would be a very different planet

IMHO!

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Absolutely

but you could say the same thing about the Cambrian Extinction.

I just love the complexity and how PERHAPS this will a little more complex, since it could also give us lessons as to global weather change and the rise and fall of infectious disease.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. The thing about the planet getting warmer, there will be winners as well as losers.

Some species will do better, many won't. There will be places on Earth where the climate will improve, more farmable land, etc.

But, we don't know exactly what the impacts will be, and we have a lot of people who are dependent upon things staying pretty close to where they are. And twiddling the knobs of the climate is probably a bad idea, just on the face of it.

Like I said, right now I think the best we can do is mitigate it, and look into better ways to power our stuff and maybe capture some of that carbon out of the atmosphere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. And this is why I love what they have found about

that weather change across time and space, including that era.

We used to believe that weather was within a range, as well as the atmosphere. Of course there was a time the continents did not change.

So every bit of info adds to that knowledge and how to mitigate it.

Tomorrow the kids will have a T-Rex descendant for lunch, aka a chicken... or rather some chicken, and so will we... and I will have a conure begging for food and having flock manners and waiting for us to eat before he does... in a way it is humbling when one understands just how much older his genus is on this world... and at times when we see them manipulating things, and opening bottles, why I said, no K-T, they might have evolved a tool maker, that would look up into the sky and ask the same questions we do.

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. If you think we'll ever leave this blue rock, then it's not an exciting time to be living in.

Because more space travel ain't happening any time in the near future.

Humans are too busy manufacturing entertainment gadgets and cell phones and starving / bombing each other to death.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. So sez you. We've learned more about the solar system and universe in the past 20 years

than we had in all the time leading up to it.

Of course, many people are so busy with their cell phones, or their assorted complaint fetishes, that they haven't bothered to notice.

And humans will leave the planet, and live elsewhere. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I can look at the long ball picture.

I stand by my statement, most exciting time to be alive, if you're paying attention. Which is not to say the future won't be even more interesting- I think it will.

[Leopolds Ghost]

72. Leopold's Law: The longer humanity possesses nukes, the probability of nuclear armageddon ==> 1.

Non-nuclear Corollary:

The only thing that would cause humans to lose civilization-ending
technology (e.g. nukes) would be a civilization-ending catastrophe,

large scale enough to end human capability to manufacture such.

Be it nukes, peak oil, starvation, conventional WWIII, asteroid etc.

Sorry but the math doesn't lie.

Nuclear armageddon will end us more and more surely the longer and longer
we are expected to survive as a civilization, barring more and more other
doomsday scenarios.

[Fumesucker]

8. When the cable TV and the video games get shut off..

The Romans provided bread and circuses for the plebes for a good reason.

And FDR tried (more or less successfully) to save the rich from the fate of the French aristocracy.

There is nowhere in the developed world that is more than a week or two away from food riots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Partially agree

due to food shortages... not the TV and Video Games. After all many folks have turned the tv off on their own and video game players are not that large part of the population.

[Fumesucker]

15. If you tell people you don't watch TV they look at you like you have an extra head or a third eye..

As someone who gave up TV a long time ago it's a rare thing when I meet another person that has quit the addiction.

An astounding amount of American conversation is about what people watched on TV last night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. And my hubby and I wil join you

I guess I have not fully broken it... since I do watch somem of the NOOZ, to see where the propaganda is going, and I admit to a food channel (when I remember) program or two.

But people are slowly quiting actually.

Oh and it is an addiction by the way...

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I have a solar powered XBOX 360 and blu-ray player in my Montana survival compound

no one is shutting my shit off, buddy.

[OneGrassRoot]

22. "separate them from their money"

I'm with you on that. In conjunction with pursuing policy changes (which does feel almost hopeless at times) for long-term institutional change in our society, I'm focused NOW on how to separate them from their wealth and balance things out, with integrity.

Giving those with the resources opportunities to balance things out in different ways, not tax write-offs, which irritate the shit out of me.

Are you familiar with this group? If so, any thoughts?

http://www.faireconomy.org/issues/responsible_wealth

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Heard of them in the past

now we see them. Will have to explore the site later on.

Some of the things I'd like to see, not expect to see soon, is the raising of the Marginal Tax Rate from 15% to 70%, for example.

As well as the end of the very high differential in pay 1:3000 I think, and go back to something more fair, like 1:40

Strong WORLD WIDE unions, with LIVING wages, month of vacation and yes a forty hour work week...

But this will not happen until there are pressures put on the system. And at this point I am at a loss as to when those will happen. GIven we have had peaceful revolutions in this country...

[Cerridwen]

24. The things you call for are against DU rules to post.

Calling for violence of any kind on this board gets a post deleted at the least or the poster TSed at the worst.

You're not going to read people advocating for violence on this board.

They may or may not advocate for such on another board; but you won't read it here.

I'm pretty sure that even linking to a call for violence will result in the same.

So, while you're asking people when it starts, remember ain't no one here gonna tell you when it does. You'll have to read elsewhere about it.

Those you sneer at as "keyboard commandos" may in fact be working toward that end. How would you know? I sure as hell wouldn't be talking about it to anyone I didn't trust with my life and trust wouldn't blab it all over the internet, "Neener, neener, I've got a secret!"

It won't be broadcast at DU; or at an un-secured site; or through an un-secured connection; or in public forums with traceable ip addresses; or any other "mainstream" location. Hell, I'm pretty sure the revolution "won't be televised."

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Know what's funny? People who froth at the mouth fantasizing for a French Revolution here

who can't figure out why their party leadership doesn't take them SERIOUSLY, DAMMIT!!! :rofl:

[Cerridwen]

30. "The Party" leadership will never take "seriously" anyone who does

not benefit "The Party's" interests.

Not new.

As for the "all talk and no walk" crowd; they aren't the ones to watch. We had a saying in high school about those guys who boasted their conquests; "All talk, no action." If you have to brag about it, you probably didn't do it.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe there is some mass underground movement of would-be leftist

revolutionaries in this country.

Even in 1973, age of the Weather Underground an all that, there simply weren't that many. Now? Pfffffffffffffffft.

I'm not talking about kids who think they're fighting the IMF by breaking windows at a Starbucks. :eyes:

There is certainly a crazy, dedicated bunch of right-wing nutjobs, but honestly-- on the left? To quote the Ancient Buddhist Sage Fred Willard, "I don't think so!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Not only has the left been broken

but some of the kids, who claim to be Anarchists, have no clue what the term means. And many of our "socialists" have no clue what the word means either.

And actually that is part of the problem... and why the country keeps getting pulled into the right, even when you poll people you realize they are far to the left of our political leaders.


And yes, you are correct, the right is very well organized. They decided to do that well, as a multi-generational project. ON a serious note, perhaps the left, after it decides what it wants, needs to do that too. Realize this will be multi-generational.

Of course that is a whole different discussion, but if we can discuss the K-T impact, I guess we can discuss this.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. I'm all for organization. And I'm all for Lakoff-style changing the parameters of the debate.

I actually DO think that, in many ways, the country has come a long way. At least in my lifetime. When I was in High School, GLBT concerns weren't even on the radar, and homophobia was rampant. I think things have improved by leaps and bounds. Certainly, in many areas- the military, marriage equality- we have a ways to go. But the societal change has been enormous.

In other areas, too.

Economically, the truth is, the Reaganites won a lot of ground. Our people have not been able to put forth a coherent argument to put more power in the hands of workers. I would have liked to see a better fight for real Health Insurance reform, I do think we gave too much away at the beginning of the debate. I think there are folks in our party who have made and continue to make some bad calculations. Calculations that don't reflect where, as you allude to, the majority of the American people sit on the issues. I think Americans, in general, want a solid safety net and real investments in things like schools and infrastructure. I think the majority of Americans could handle being told that, yes, some of the money is coming out of a Military Budget that contains more money than the military budgets of all the planet's other major militaries COMBINED. I also think that the American people are far more socially libertarian than the conventional wisdom gives them credit for. They want government out of their bedrooms and bodies, they don't want it telling them what they can watch or listen to (or what they can eat, for that matter)



... but let's be fair, here: if what you're talking about is a multi-generational project for the left (such as it is) to become better organized (I think we've seen some of that, actually- we certainly have seen the left start competing in the media outlets; now you have voices on cable like Maddow and Olbermann) ... that's really not exactly clear from your OP, where you're alluding to other things. I'm an old school Jeffersonian Democrat. I believe in change via the ballot box. AFAIC, the real "revolution" always takes place in one place, and one place only- in one's own head.

These guys put it best:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ptiu_beatles-revolution_music

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Well the organization starts really

at basic communications. Yes, both Maddow and Oberman are good, but not enough... (and add eddy to the list).

But it starts at places like running for office... for the school district for example. I have considered it, but at this moment in my life I am far more concerned about getting a job (teaching preferably)


But after the right got it's head handed to them they did not go whimper around... they got at it... and that was early in the 1960s. Reagan was the ultimate success of that.

What frustrates me mostly, is they can set the agenda because the language has become all but precise... and we seem to be floundering on HOW to communicate the message. Oh and like you, I am a fan of Lakkoff.

[Leopolds Ghost]

78. Hmm. Jefferson was not only an advocate of revolution as a tactic, he defended the one in France.

He didn't much care for the notion of the Constitution enshrining the establishement of a polis, sacrosanct from future overthrowal or replacement, either. His attitude toward the Bill of Rights was that it was a necessary Band-Aid on a deeply flawed document... ironically.

Jefferson's proposed 11th and 12th fundamental "Bill of" rights (restricting corporate charters, as no US-allied country has had the guts to do, and also, vetoing the continual provision of a standing army, as Japan and Costa Rica have done) did not secure enough votes to pass.

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. And the French one was difficult to defend. He also was a quintessential left populist.

Albeit highly inconsistent.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. He defended the French Revolution up until the

horrors of Robespierre. He was, like most other people, horrified by those events... and the blood bath that ensued.

[Leopolds Ghost]

83. And rightly so. I'm a fan of Jefferson too -- just pointing out he was a left populist

And would not rule out revolution as a political tool.

Heck, Webster's dictionary in the 1840s defined "Anti-Americanism" for the first time as "inimical to the revolution" or some such.

America was lucky. The Constitution survived because it coincided with a huge territorial expansion that suycked away all that revolutionary discontent that might have otherwise fed on itself. Like Islam in the 700s.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. The West= safety valve

The Turner Hypothesis, and still real. I wonder if these days the safety valve has moved to the internets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Here is the point am I calling for the revolution?

No, I am calling those who fantasize one is going to happen.

Get the difference? You do get the difference right?

By the way, you do know what I am talking about in things like the Home SPun movement? (Use the google, or open a US HIstory book on circa American Revolution, same goes for tar and feather)

In other words, when did history become verbotten? Alas after the last oh weird 48 yours, that would not shock me either.

[Cerridwen]

35. I surely hope you're young enough that when you fall off that high horse

you don't break your ass; or your head.

I made a point of differentiating between those who do and those who talk; perhaps you could have read it?

Take a look through my posts. I've been posting history for quite some time.

When you decide you want to discuss rather than pontificate (use the google for the definition) you let me know. Until then; don't break your ass; or your head.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Yes master

I guess calling people on their idiocy earms me time at the corner

You said I posted something that is against the rules. Only thing that occurs to me is against the rules, given the nature of the post and how full of history it is... is well, history. And I am serious, given the last forty eight hours, it would not shock me that history has become verbotten, as well as policy.

[Cerridwen]

39. I said, what you are calling for people to do is against the DU rules.

Please re-read my post.

You will not see people here planning the revolution, especially if they are calling for a "violent" revolution.

You then went on to say that since you see no one calling for said violence, that they are "keyboard commandos" as though those who would plan a revolution would post to a public board. If you truly know history, you know that revolution is not planned in the public eye.

I responded to that. Any "revolution"; but especially, any *violent* revolution, will not be advertised in public; and will most definitely NOT be advertised at DU. Because, it's against the rules. Which pegs my irony meter; staying within the rules to plot revolution.

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I am NOT calling for it

are you really THAT FUCKING DENSE?

[Cerridwen]

43. Are you?

What is more. I wonder how many of our keyboard commandos even know what those terms mean, or have the basic curiousity to go look it up, or just ask questions. But if you are so horrified (and you should) there is more to changing things and dynamics than just posting your anger on a message board... home spun might be a way, for example, to protest the sending away of American jobs to make shirts... or buying from LOCAL merchants if you need a bag from recycled material... I could go on... so when is the revolution starting?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yes, and your point?

That is basic group dynamics.

By the way Einstein you do know the last progressive revolution, or perhaps you prefer the term Liberal, happened in the 1930s. Perhaps I missed this in my classes of US History, or basic reading, or we are both reading a different version of history. Tell me... when exactly was the VIOLENT revolution?

There you go... or was FDR the leader of the Red Army? (If you ask a few Righties, indeed he was, so who was our Alexandr Kerensky?)

So calling for the keyboard commandos to do something else than just posting in a world wide web on a message board, perhaps also means getting involved in the process, using their CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED rights to assembly and petition their government. Or in your version of history we don't have those rights any longer?

So if asking for people to do THAT is a violation of the rules, I guess asking people to go sign petitions is verbotten? As well as go march? When exactly did we lose those rights? I knew Bush was bad, but I think those rights are still at least in print...

There are days...

[Cerridwen]

46. I was replying to your presumption.

So calling for the keyboard commandos to do something else than just posting in a world wide web on a message board, perhaps also means getting involved in the process, using their CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED rights to assembly and petition their government. Or in your version of history we don't have those rights any longer?

Actually, I was replying to your presumption that people who post here, ONLY POST here and do nothing besides posting here. It's a common mistake made by those who only post but don't get off the couch, so to speak.

It's called projection. You can google that.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I DO have other things to do than post on an internet board.

YOU have a nice evening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. RLOL we could compare notes on actually doing things

That make a REAL difference in people's lives.

but carry on.

I guess you are at the front of the parade?

YOU were told you were wrong, and cannot take being wrong. That is also called projection, you google it up.

[Bonobo]

60. Don't take the bait.

OP is looking for another excuse to post her resume that we all, unfortunately, already have been subjected to countless times.

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. What happened in the last 48 hours?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. The amount of folks using dog whistles

and not knowing even the most basic of economics.

I happen to like precision in the language, and highly dislike dog whistles, and don't care if they are right or left ones.

Blame being a writer and doing many drafts with documents, even if not here. If I did that for DU posts, I'd no time for anything else.

History and basic economics don't matter, just blind ideology. And of course, there is also a dislike for actual policy, and shinnies (in this case a wedding) work very well to distract people. Get them riled up, while there are other things that matter far more than who marries whom and how much their spend. Those are SYMPTOMS of a problem, not the cause of the problem.

[Leopolds Ghost]

82. Has something happened to piss people off? I've been "away from my set".

Since I stopped posting here every day (roundabout when FISA and HCR came along),

and I stopped reading the Washington Post after they cut their size in half and became a right-wing ownership rag on the order of the Western US birdcage-liners.

So I'm not always up on the news seeing as it can't get much worse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Chelsea Clinton is getting married

and ABC news, who could not get anybody to speak... (They are using local businesses and had everybody sign confidentiality agreements), they got a wedding planner to give them a number. So the number the wedding planner came up with was 2 mil.

So over here people went on a twitter over the horror of this. And were incapable of understanding the difference between a fee for service (aka hiring the caterer for the event) and trickle down, the much lower tax rates you pay if you happen to have income from investment in the stock exchange.

A few tried to explain this difference at the policy and tax rate level and why, as much as I might not like the idea of spending that much on a wedding on an ideological level, that is stimulating a very much so locally depressed economy.

In other words, trickle down, which has a specific economic meaning, became a dog whistle meaning RICH.

And believe you me, when I got accused of defending the rich, never mind I have said many a times those marginal tax rates (part of trickle down) should go up from the present 15% to 70%, somehow I am for wealth accumulation. It was bizarro world. But it really opened eyes to just how little policy people understand, and how easily distracted people are.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. That post drips with presumption, not to mention high horses.

I hope that you don't break your finger, from wagging it so much.

[Bonobo]

31. As a "historian", I thought you might know this, but...

Revolutions aren't predicted or predictable.

Revolutions aren't planned by individuals. They are inevitable movements that occur when the correct forces are in alignment.

Your arrogance and condescending attitude drips off the page.

Here are some of the things you write that convey that message:

"Me, as a Historian I get it. And I will say something that you will not like."

"I am getting ammused at this point"

"not what many keyboard commandos believe it is, is exactly what you imagine."

"DU ideological purity test"

"I wonder how many of our keyboard commandos even know what those terms mean"

"I don't expect you to get the reference"

[murdoch]

42. The blood on Clinton's hands

Both Clintons have much blood on their hands. Bill has the blood of the Iraqis he starved. The Sudanese he bombed which many on the right (who like a stopped broke clock I agree with once in a while) said he wagged the dog. The Serbians he murdered.

Hillary has the blood of the Iraqis she killed as she voted to invade (don't give me the BULL that that vote laid all the blame in Bush's hand - Republicans don't believe that, and half the Democrats don't believe that - go sit in your corner with half of the Democrats and live with your delusions - yes, Bush is guilty but so is she).

She has the blood of the Hondurans, the Hondurans being murdered in their beds because they want DEMOCRACY and a handful of oligarchs have goon squads murdering them and she is funding those murdering goon squads and so is Obama.

I care far more about this than that they have more money than is good for them and they are throwing a big wedding.

Some people have their priorities screwed up. People fighting for democracy in Honduras are being killed every day by the guns Hillary and Obama send their murderers, and people complain Hillary and Bill spent too much on the wedding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. If you are talking policy

I will call him the best Republican President since Ike, me and Hartman and a few others.

But in the VERY NARROW matter of a wedding... let them stimulate the local area as much as they want. Hell, if they want to spend ten million... I will applaud them... it takes that money away from investments, where it produces more income by the way (And that you can thank Bush for), to them, and into the general economy where it will stimulate it. IN a very minor way this is how the stimulus works.

I know this is not easy skill, but people need to learn to distinguish policy (and how individuals are involved as well as group think) and events like this one, that is used to distract, confuse and get people pissed off. So people take the eye off the damn ball.

It is a shinny, a distraction...

[asdjrocky]

49. Wow.

Could you manage to come off more condescending? I don't know if you realize it, but DU is full of teachers, and many of them, I'm sure, teach history.

Maybe you didn't mean to, and I'm just being too hard on you, but you have to realize, there's been like a hundred different revolutions in America and around the world over just the last hundred years.

[Bonobo]

51. I'm sure that as a "historian", she knew it.

But she realizes that you and I probably wouldn't understand the finer points of such a discussion given our lack of intelligence, laziness and TV watching.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Ah when we cannot counter a point we go for the famous

personal attack.

Congratulations.

And yes, like it or not I am...

Now to alert or not to alert for a personal attack...

No, let's keep the personal attack on.

:hi:

[asdjrocky]

69. I'll try to do better in the future.

I am sorry for even thinking to question the all seeing Super Historian.

[earth mom]

56. So says YOU-one of the "ORIGINAL THANK GAWD IT PASSED!" DUers!

:puke:


I think I've seen it all now. Your OP is so unbelievable it's funny. :rofl:

Do you REALLY think anyone would be stupid enough to plot anything openly here on DU or tell someone like you?! :wtf: :crazy:



And also btw-your trickle down bullshit belongs solely to the rethugs which you should already know as a so called "historian".

Or was Reagan really a democrat and none of us knew it all these years until you schooled us here with your "revised history"? :eyes:

[Romulox]

63. Drinking and posting...maybe not the BEST idea.

Still a good idea, I suppose. Unrec for the hideous content of the post, nevertheless!

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. And what is that horrible content?

And so you know... I don't drink.

Oh wait, I guess the horrible content is asking people to think before they post? And to realize that a fucking wedding is just a shiny?

Oh SQUIRREL... ADD... (And yes I have it before you say I am insulting people. Perhaps I will start posting using Queens English. Then you can claim that indeed that is in a foreign language, at least the rules of sentence construction will be strange to some Americans used to reading at the 5th grade level)

[uncommon]

73. It will start when people actually get fed up with the status quo. As it stands, most

are content to let things be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. There is that

but I suspect the Intertubes are serving the same role the West served in the 19th century...simply put, a safety valve.