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Rhee fires 241 teachers today in DC. Last year 266 got the axe.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:32 PM
Original message
Rhee fires 241 teachers today in DC. Last year 266 got the axe.
The DC teachers voted for a contract they knew would give her more power to hire and fire. I really don't blame them, as the pressure is so great to conform to the new "reform" agenda. The districts can not get their share of Arne Duncan's billions in discretionary funds unless they comply.

From June of this year:

DC teachers vote to give Chancellor Michelle Rhee more power. They need Arne's money.


The contract strikes a "balance," says D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee, who negotiated away very little of what she sought. (Bill O'leary/the Washington Post)

District teachers ratified a new contract Wednesday that dramatically expands Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee's ability to remove poor educators and places Washington on a growing list of cities and states that have established classroom results, not seniority, as the standard by which teachers are paid.

..."A voluntary performance pay program to begin this fall could add $20,000 to $30,000 to D.C. teachers' salaries, based on significant improvement in student test scores and other yet-to-be specified criteria. The system, to be financed for the first three years under a controversial arrangement with private foundations approved by District Chief Financial Officer Natwar M. Gandhi, could raise total compensation for some instructors to $140,000, officials estimate. Although cities such as Denver have had incentive pay programs for several years, none promise the kind of money that Rhee says she is prepared to pay. For teachers who enter the plan, it means no longer having to invest 10 to 15 years in a lockstep pay schedule to command a significant income.


Now she is once again exercising her power in the school system. Last year she fired 266 teachers. Now she is firing 241.

From the Washington Post:

Rhee fires 241 D.C. teachers; 165 cited for poor performance

Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee announced Friday that she has fired 241 teachers, including 165 who received poor appraisals under a new evaluation system that, for the first time, holds some educators accountable for student growth on standardized test scores.

...""Every child in a District of Columbia public school has a right to a highly effective teacher -- in every classroom, of every school, of every neighborhood, of every ward, in this City," Rhee said in a statement. "That is our commitment. Today, with the release of the first year of results from IMPACT, the educator assessment system, we take another step toward making that commitment a reality."

The Washington Teachers' Union said it will contest the firings.


Here is more about IMPACT at the link:

Union leaders and some teachers have bitterly objected to IMPACT, which was devised in collaboration with a private consultant, Mathematica Policy Research. Although school officials convened teacher focus groups to discuss the plan, it was not subject to collective bargaining. Some teachers call it overly complex and dependent on an unreliable statistical methodology for linking test scores to individual teachers. WTU President George Parker said the program is designed to weed out teachers rather than to help them improve their practice.

"It's punishment-heavy and support-light," Parker said.


IMPACT is part of the new system of reform. There is no support system for teachers, they are just gone. The National Academies of Science warned the Obama administration against such high stakes testing.

Rhee Fires 226 Teachers Under New IMPACT Evaluation Scheme

The scientific community is in accord on the dangers inherent in making high stakes decisions derived from test scores based on "growth models." An explicit warning was issued by the National Academies last Fall to Arne Duncan and anyone else interested enough to read the warning label on the growth model snake oil. We don't know how many of the226 teachers fired today by The Witch were evaluated using the growth model scores, but it is clear that Rhee and Co. have blood on their hatchet and are ready for more. No support, no improvement plan, no warning, no professional development plan, just Bang, you're gone.


It seems to me that lately teachers have been prejudged and found wanting, almost like guilty of being a bad teacher unless someone can prove otherwise. And the only critierium in most cases is a single test.

The denigration of teachers has worked so well it is now part of our culture. Teachers are expected to be unworthy, and thus it is easier for the "reformers", the privatizers to get their way.

In fact it's time to look back at 1987 and Reagan's Commission on Privatization.

President Reagan today appointed a commission to study ways Government functions can be turned over to private business.

Prof. David F. Linowes, a political economist at the University of Illinois, was named chairman of the President's Commission on Privatization, and said the 12-member panel's mandate ''is very broad.'' It will ''probe the entire dimension of Government operations'' and offer recommendations in six months, he said.

Mr. Reagan, vacationing at his ranch near here, issued a statement saying the commission would help him ''end unfair Government competition and return Government programs and assets to the American people.''

..."Professor Linowes, speaking to reporters here, said he could not predict what the commission might recommend. But he indicated that likely targets of study included Federal low-income housing projects. The Government has already given some prospective tenants vouchers to pay for low-income housing of their choice, rather than building new Federal housing units. A similar Administration idea, to distribute education vouchers so parents can send children to the school of their choice, has gone nowhere.


A little similarity there to today?

I feel sure that the majority of Democrats now will be cheering Michelle Rhee, and saying that teachers are finally getting what is coming to them.

And that is terribly tragic.



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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
It's always amazing to me that those who wouldn't step foot in a classroom are experts on how to teach.

Our teachers are an incredible resource -- they do what they do for little money, no kudos, and now, people like the above administrator, Bill Gates, and President Obama's buddy Arne are going to let them know that their best efforts just aren't good enough. Those test scores aren't high enough!

It's incredible that anyone wants to teach at all now.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. It's the Decession. It's produced an artificial teacher glut.
>>>>>It's incredible that anyone wants to teach at all now.>>>>>>>>

I'd pack it in myself except I can't afford to retire in this economy.

Ironic that the same corporate class that produced the Decession seeks to use it now to, ahem, "reform" our public school systems.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Not ironic, except perhaps to a foreign visitor.
It's all of a piece. Our ruling class has always wanted to treat us this way, and it's been escalating for decades now.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. So basically over 400 of her employees have been fired based on two years worth of testing.
Amazing personnel policy. Over 400 people out of a job because of one test.

Still think teachers have it made Jane and John Public?
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djp2 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
71. Well, lookie..the number
is deceasing ONLY 241 this year down from last year...There must be sOME improvement somewhere!! ;)
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. No actually, DC has organized policy of evicting poor Afr-Am families w kids. Pure ethnic cleansing.
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 02:52 PM by Leopolds Ghost
Stated in a document called the 2020 plan enacted under the Williams Administration, I believe.

The City Paper did an excellent expose on it.

They noted how DC gov't came up with two competing plans, one to make DC a haven for middle class families and existing (majority black) residents,

and one to scale back services for families, encourage lower-income families to move to the suburbs, and make DC a haven for the rich.
The two were presented side-by-side. Guess which one got chosen?

The City Councilman for Capitol Hill Tommy Wells is a white guy who made his career lobbying to demolish scattered-site housing for the poor on Capitol Hill. Once the housing is gone, the public schools are "no longer needed" as their attendance drops by 800 kids or more.

The schools are then privatized into "needed" private schools and chater schools for the rich... and a Gold's Gym.

One housing project located near the new ballpark, was torn down to make way for the Marine Corps Marching band and tennis court, Ollie North's old unit, by the Commandant of the Marine Corps,

thanks to an organized appeal by current Dem councilman Tommy Wells and the former chief of staff for Newt Gingrich.

Pure ethnic cleansing.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. The policy is known as "cap rates", and is the norm in "Blue" cities. Ask your city if they have it.
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 02:53 PM by Leopolds Ghost
Capitalization rates govern whether something is allowed based on whether it is a net positive for municipal tax coffers. Potential new "customers" (residents) attracted by any development (a school, public housing, office building) are rated (given a calculation number) based on how much of a burden they would be to city services.

Low-scoring city services (e.g. water fountains, payphones, schools) or developments (low-income housing, mixed-income) are prohibited, not on the basis of income but "anticipated burden on city services".

Call your city and ask them if they have any literature on "cap rates" policy governing schools, housing, and development for the city you live in.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. We're talking closing no-longer-needed schools for the poor
To build charter schools for "the new residents" who will inherit DC.

And that's according to the city's own literature and half of the white residents you talk to.

White residents on Capitol Hill *cheered* when the city's only movie theater on the east side of town got shut down,

saying they were tired of watching movies in a theater that attracted "inner city black kids"

and warning that "if they migrate to Gallery Place, we'll need to close that one down next."

Link: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2008/09/union_station_movie_theaters_t.html

See especially the racist comments thread.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
3.  $20,000 to $30,000 could be added to their salaries
with improved student test scores, what are their current salaries?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Those salaries will be paid by Gates, Broad et al
as long as Rhee remains as DC school head.

They say they worked around it, but I would not bet on it. Not for a minute.

It's called corporately funded merit pay for teachers

They will probably only get it if they all march to the same drummer.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
88. So they withhold the money if DC's democratically elected replacement for F*enty, fires Rhee?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Do doctors get fired on the basis of their patients' tests?
The whole concept of "human services" has completely gone out of education.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
79. Doctors are trying to heal their patients - teachers are supposed to make sure their
students are actually LEARNING.

Apples and steaks.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. And if a patient is not healed because he or she doesn't follow
doctor's orders - lose 10#, take meds, walk, etc., should the doctor be held accountable?

If a student doesn't do homework or listen in class or participate in projects/labs/discusisons, should the teacher be held accountable?

If a parent doesn't turn off the TV, video games, cell phone, and computer (for non-academic work) until the homework is done, or get the kid to school in the morning, or make certain the kid gets to bed a reasonable hour and doesn't stay up until 3am playing computer games or texting friends, or send the kid to school with a positive attitude toward learning, should the teacher be held accountable?

If TV programs, movies, and other media portray intelligence as geeky or socially undesirable such that school and learning are perceived as being uncool, should the teacher be held accountable?

If the school administration refuses to apply consistent enforcement of school policies, refuses to remove disruptive students from the classroom, doesn't adhere to its own attendance policy, doesn't maintain a safe campus, should the teacher be held accountable?

If the state and local community don't supply needed textbooks, school furniture, and other resources, should the teacher be held accountable?

Teachers are one part of the equation but are the only ones required to be accountable. Teachers are not opposed to evaluation and in fact, most welcome it as a means to improve our craft. We do object to evaluation that is subjective and based on factors outside of our control.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. She was mouthing off on something earlier
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 05:50 PM by Nite Owl
on MSNBC. Seems they are doing away with seniority. What they want to do is fire teachers that cost too much, the experienced teachers, so that they can hire college grads and newer teachers at lower pay. What happens to pensions too.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. I have so much anger over what is being allowed to happen to teachers.
It is the kind of anger that is not healthy.

There is an arrogant manner that people like Rhee have toward teachers that is shocking to me.

And they have Arne's blessing to be that way.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. Even on DU...
...they're just a buncha highly-paid civil service drones. Who cares what happens to them.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Wow
things are getting dicier and dicier here lately. I can't believe how some feel towards teachers and workers rights in general on Democratic board.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm used to it by now.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Believe it.
It's been like this for awhile. :(
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. The feelings toward teachers are fairly recent...
at least overtly.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Apparently it is okay if the Democrats do it. nt
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. I love teachers, but is it anti democratic to say their is a problem???
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
98. nothing they're doing solves any problems. just creates new ones.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. It's not just sad that some Du'ers shill for the neocons.
They are proud of their ignorant gullibility. They mouth the lines as if they had thought of them. It's not just sad; it is ignorant.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Reminds me of that horrid teacher from HARRY POTTER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX
Next thing you know, she'll have one of those noxious "I must not tell lies" quill pens.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I saw Umbridge
as the fictional embodiment of the "standards and accountability" movement when the book came out, before they even made the movie.

It's been clear where we were going for quite some time.

We're reaching an extreme here, though, where Umbridges will be in charge of more and more systems in the nation.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. Great one! n/t
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ya know, we don't agree on much regarding education, but...
we absolutely agree that Rhee needs to be fired.

I work in DC and I've become a favorite target of Adrian Fenty's reelection campaign stumpers. How shocked they are when they ask what it would take for me to vote Fenty and I tell them that the mayor would have to eject Michelle Rhee from her job and city-hall. In a city with hundreds of other problems she's become a major electoral issue. In a race Fenty should have had tied up months ago, he may very well lose between her and his unremitting drive to gentrify the entire city and eliminate subsidized housing and rent-control.

I'm yet to mention I'm a MD resident and can't vote in the mayoral or city council races. Oh but if I could, it'd be Vince and Vince all the way...the only question if Grey or Orange gets elected is whether she's going to have time to quit before they boot her to the curb.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
42. Do you have a link to DC AYP scores? I teach in Pa. I'm
just curious...will Rhee be fired if AYP isn't made? In other words, what is her accountability?

I can't stand this woman.

By the way, I grew up in Hyattsville in the 1960s 1970s. Graduated from Northwestern near Maryland U.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Never mind I found.it. Are there any consequences for students
who don't get proficient or above? One school system in Pa in Lancaster County will not allow students to graduate from high school until they get a proficient or above. Amazing results, imagine that! No one sits and fills in the same bubble all the way down the page, and students pay attention in class (never at 100% of all students, of course, but those who don't are mostly drug users, seriously.) And this is in an inner city school, with one of the greatest poverty levels in Pa. If students are held acccountable, it is just amazing what can happen!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Last I heard FL retains kids in 3rd grade until they pass the FCAT
I don't know if that has been modified or not.

The ones who can pass eventually do. The ones who are not able to do so still just don't.

Since there are no exceptions given for learning problems anymore, who knows the final outcome.

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erodriguez Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. I gotta say it
DC teachers who voted away their tenure protections in order to have a chance at making a few extra bucks are idiots.

Now, lots of good teachers who didn't want anything to do with the shell game Rhee was offering are screwed.


I wrote at length about the contract here.

http://www.incongressional.com/the-dc-contract-a-masterful-orchestration/

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. i can see why you'd feel threatened by it. nt
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Some simply sold out. A year or two until retirement and poof more money than they
have seen in all their years in education. Others are deluded. Firing over 400 employees in two years time suggests to me that no one over 30K has any time left on the clock.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. How many of them is she accusing of being child molesters this time?
She's such a vile woman.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You know, let's suppose the she is sincere for a moment (not that she is)
How does this contribute to the student achievement? And better yet, how will the entire Washington DC establishment manage the message when the gains are no better or worse than the thousands of districts that have not fired over 40% of their staff?

Because she is counting on that and they are counting on that. So the NEA had better hire some damn fine investigative reporters or this union is dead in the water and we're all standing around paying dues for nothing.

They will cover her ass, no doubt about it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. There does seem to be a strange love/hate relationship between Rhee and AFT
They criticize her and then cave to her crazy ideas.
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erodriguez Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. The DC local is in the AFT
The same AFT that had Bill Gates as the keynote speaker for their national convention.

The same AFT that has enabled WTU Pres. Parker to keep his job without holding elections.

To put it bluntly, they are screwed.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Sorry forgot about the AFT. They are already bending over backwards to cover her ass.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. It doesn't. It's about...
...$$$
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. End of the idea of local control and I don't believe the parents in the US have any idea
of what bargain they are going to be making with these devils.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. More from USA Today.
DC Firestorm: Hundreds of school workers to be dismissed.

D.C.'s public school system will fire more than 200 employees for poor performance — 4% of its work force — and is putting another 700 employees on notice they will be fired in the next year if their performance doesn't improve, the school system announced Friday.

The school system says the firings will not affect the start of school on Aug. 23, because a pool of teachers has already been screened for hire. New teacher orientation is scheduled in just over two weeks. (TFA? my question...or New Teacher project)

The new evaluation system being used to determine the performance of teachers and employees is called "IMPACT." For a teacher, five observations conducted throughout the year are part of the score, but 50% is based on students' performance on the D.C. Comprehensive Assessment System, a test given to students in April. Other school employees are evaluated on their specific jobs. About 6,300 employees were assessed using the system this year. The 226 employees rated "ineffective" under the four-tier evaluation system, including 165 teachers, are being be fired. Another 729 employees who scored "minimally effective" are being put on notice that they will be fired after the upcoming school year if their performance doesn't improve. Another 76 teachers are being let go for problems with their certification.

This is the second time in less than a year that the school system has laid off a large number of people. In October, schools Chancellor Michelle Rhee announced the layoffs of 400 school employees, about half of them teachers, citing a budget crunch. That round of layoffs cut about six percent of the work force and was the latest in a contentious relationship between Rhee and the schools. The chancellor was appointed by D.C. Mayor Adrian Fenty in 2007 and promised to turn around the school system.


Already screened teachers to be hired this fall. Of course, that makes sense. Bring on board new cheaper teachers. I would love to see figures on how many tenured teachers, experienced and with good salaries...got the ax by Rhee breaking union contracts with her power.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. Putting all the blame on the teachers or principals...that is "reform"??
What Arne is doing to education will leave permanent damage and anger.

You can NOT leave parents and children out of the blame and responsibility equation. It is not fair to anyone to do that.



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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. who said life was fair or that we are dealing with an equitable situation.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I responded to you below. Such bitterness toward teachers.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. If you can't fire someone for a poor performance you are stuck with mediocrity.
I don't understand why the teachers on this board can't admit that something must be done. I know that many teachers on this board know of burned out teachers that should be fired. Maybe if it was
up to the teachers in a given school to vote on their collegues they wouldn't feel so threatened.

Peer review should be something put on the table, but to just do nothing is no longer an option. It is a difficult situation but maybe the teachers on this board can understand the oil industry workers
and their fear of jobs being threatened or any other worker in an unpopular industry. Everyone gets defensive and non cooperative when it is their livelihood on the line.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Are you aware that teachers are evaluated all the time already?
You seem to think teachers just amble along without any reviews or evaluations.

You also seem unnecessarily angry at teachers.

That anger toward teachers has grown since Arne Duncan became Secretary of Education.

It's a mindless anger without much understanding of learning and kids and parents....and the roles of all of them in education.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Evaluations without consequences are not worth very much. No, I am not mad at teachers, just the
attitude that everything is an attack. We are in an educational crisis and we need solutions, which may be difficult at first. What is obvious is that it is easy to throw out suggestions to the oil industry,
companies that send their manufacturing to China, wallstreet etc, because those are the "bad guys" . How you feel as a teacher is how others in these evil industries feel when changes to their livelihoods are suggested by self righteous people. I only ask that we be allowed to acknowledge that there is a problem and something must be done.

No group wants change or adjustment if it means being inconvenienced. Good teachers should be more worried about budget cuts and loss of jobs due to education being the first thing on the cutting room floor.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. They are dismantling public education. I do have attitude. Why don't you?
The teachers are the scapegoats now I think because they had some semblance of job security. That will no longer be tolerated.

I am backing off. Arguing here just gets folks in trouble, and I am not going to argue with you.

I have presented my case too many times, and yes, your attitude toward teachers is obvious.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. "We are in an educational crisis and we need solutions"
Seems like we've been in an "educational crisis" my entire life.

Maybe the educators aren't the problem.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. Whatever crisis exists
Edited on Sun Jul-25-10 03:11 PM by LWolf
was manufactured, originally, by conservative Republicans who wanted to, and want to, privatize public education. It began under Ronald Reagan. It has been picked up since by Democrats, and the Obama administration is going full steam ahead with that conservative Republican agenda. Except, now that Democrats are doing it, it's a Democratic agenda, as well. We need solutions, but the current administration isn't offering any. They are offering more of what is bringing us down. If you think part of that isn't a direct attack on teachers, you haven't been paying attention.

Meanwhile, the long, slow erosion of public education, by propaganda, by under-funding and under-staffing, authoritarian mandates that PREVENT positive reform, has had consequences. It's been a highly successful campaign to discredit and then destroy public education.

Good teachers ARE worried about budget cuts and loss of jobs. Good teachers are also worried about education policies that hurt schools, hurt students, and hurt the public education system.

I've been working in public education since 1983. I am a public education student. So are both of my sons. So are my grandsons. I've ALWAYS acknowledged that there were things in the system that needed to change. I've ALWAYS advocated for solutions.

I've done so on DU for almost 8 years now. Here are 22 things that can be done to radically improve the condition of public education across the nation. These are the kinds of changes we should be enacting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=26438&mesg_id=26493
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Thank you again for those 22 things.
:hi:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. You are welcome, of course.
A related post; I wasn't quite eloquent in my response, being to angry to communicate well; perhaps you will do better:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8813971

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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. So, why can't a teacher fire a student for poor performance?
That is how it works in the rest of the world. Someone doesn't do their job, they are fired.

A student can't be fired, though, but the teacher can get blamed for the student who doesn't care about their grade. If the student doesn't care, and the parents don't care, what recourse does the teacher have?

A teacher who is but a small influence in the totality of the student's life. In the new educational reform movement, no mention is made of the responsibility of the parents of the student. Or of the effects of poverty. Or of the student themselves for their own responsibility in their own education.

In the new educational mythology, all that is required is that a teacher have high expectations for each and every student.

It is akin to a religious belief, as there is little objective evidence that the high expectations belief actually works. Nonetheless, it is taking over education. There is no evidence that charter schools do a better job than public schools, (they actually do worse) yet it is a key reform initiative in Race to the Top.

and the identified bad guy is the teacher, who is to blame for circumstances they can't and never will control.

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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Are you suggesting we give up on certain students and kick them out of school ? Maybe it is too late
for some high school students, but elementary and junior high school kids are still impressionable. A good teacher can make a difference in a young students life. I think teachers should be paid more
and held accountable at the younger ages. In high school the students must be willing to participate.

I am being accused of being hostile to teachers when I point out that we have issues in our school system. I was lucky to have good teachers, and I definitely think teachers are underpaid. I also think
like any business that can not fire it's employees ( like the post office) there are inefficiencies and lackluster employees.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Stop using the mistruth that teachers can not be fired. It is blatantly untrue.
It's propaganda.

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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. It is not propaganda. There are hundreds of teachers in downtown LA. that can not be fired and get
paid for sitting in a building everyday for doing nothing. I personally know the superintendent of 1 of the districts and it is practically impossible to fire a teacher with tenure. Sorry but you are wrong. Maybe in Florida it is different, but not in California.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. They can be fired.
They don't like sitting around waiting for due process any better than we like them sitting there. All teachers can be fired, with due process. If a district is dragging it's feet, who is to blame?
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. I'm in California, and...
...madfloridian is right. ;)
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
69. Pisces, it's like that in Washington State, too. Bad teachers stay for decades.
Edited on Sun Jul-25-10 09:02 PM by Diane R
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
99. i'm in washington state too, & that's a bunch of crap.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. It is interesting that you do not engage in any suggestions on how to make the situation better
only pick out inflammatory things to highlight. I don't think you want a discussion but a break down of us vs. them which it is not. Everyone is interested in a better educational system, especially those of us with small children.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Dear god. Here, again,
are many suggestions to make the situation better; please engage in discussing them with me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=26438&mesg_id=26493
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. I like many of your suggestions especially abolish junk food. I also think
having substitute teachers on staff at the school, early and after school tutoring, and many other suggestions. I think starting the list off with abolishing poverty is where the list gets into utopian
thinking. That is not going to happen immediately and we need some changes now. I wish it was easy to abolish poverty.

I also don't think making the classrooms open for parents to come in out at anytime is a good idea. This would make the areas where there are helicopter parents unbearable for the teacher and the students. They are already volunteering the maximum number of hours allowed and particpating. It is the poor areas that would not change as both parents are working or the single parent is
working.

I think the afterschool tutorial would be the most helpful to poor families struggling with adequate daycare as well as uneducated parents who can not help their child with homework, and also do
not have the skills to encourage learning.


I joined the conversation late, but it didn't seem to me that madfloridian wandted to discuss how to make things better only tear down new things being implemented.

I don't subscribe to blame the teacher for all the problems. I also live in the practical world where I don't believe you are going to get parent involvement in undereducated areas. The mindset
is established. The only way to break this is to help the children out of that mindset and that is with properly trained teachers who are being paid the appropriate money for saving our future.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Thanks.
As for poverty...I include it because it is the single biggest factor affecting student success. And it's a factor outside of any school's control. There's a reason for the achievement gaps between the poor, the middle class, and the rich, and it isn't teachers.

You are correct about poverty not being any easy issue to address, nor a quick one. I posted these suggestions for poverty earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8808981&mesg_id=8813709

My suggestion for parents springs from the school I worked in where that policy was in place. What we found was that it was possible to build more positive relationships with parents, reduce the distrust, and achieve more working as a team when they felt included and valued. The more ways we can think of to achieve that relationship building, the better.

Before and after school programming is most helpful to poor families, and it's one facet of addressing poverty that schools, given funding, can accomplish. Adult ed, and family enrichment, etc., is also another way to build positive parent/teacher/school relationships, especially in undereducated areas. I teach in an undereducated area now. Not an inner city school; a rural school. We work really hard to connect to every family. We don't reach all, of course. But we do reach some, and every family reached is a child helped.

Madflo is very familiar with my list. We've discussed it many times. She's tearing down the new things being implemented because they don't address the sources of the problems. They scapegoat teachers, and they are being used as a vehicle for privatization and union-busting. That's not the way to help children.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I'll discuss them with you: they are naive to the point of being meaningless
Abolish poverty, abolish testing, full funding for everything everywhere, supervision of every square inch of school property...

Your list is not a strategy or a solution, it's a wishlist. We would all like and end to poverty, crime and bad weather but it is not going to happen. In the real world, competence is measured by the ability to set and achieve goals with limited resources and under tight constraints.

A plan that depends on unlimited availability of resources is nothing more than magical thinking. It's like a debt repayment plan that starts with winning the lotto.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. "naive to the point of being meaningless."
Of course, the suggestions of an actual EDUCATOR, rather than a CEO, someone who has seen 27 years on the front lines of education, are "naive." :eyes:

That's not a discussion. It's an attack. Are you trying to say you don't think that those things would improve schools, and students' experiences and opportunities for success in those schools?
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Hey, on education everyone is an expert
except the people in the classroom, you know, the teachers.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. You got that right. nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. It is interesting that you think that I don't want to discuss it.
In fact it is funny you think that.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Re: Your attempt at hijacking the thread
FAIL
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Mine. And check out...
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. I've argued that same point, but it is always twisted as 'hating teachers'. ....
I simply think ALL kids deserve decent, even great, teachers. And teachers don't deserve a golden ticket all the way to retirement if they can't do a decent job.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Your "golden ticket to retirement" remark was uncalled for completely.
In fact it is insulting. Bye for now. I don't want to get pulled into arguments here. Not worth it.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
81. I've seen it myself. I taught with teacher known to be horrible, and they kept their jobs 30 years.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Think about this
Diane,

If a steel worker is incompetent and the thing built keep falling down it is that workers fault for doing substandard work. But if that worker is kept on the job it becomes the foremans responsibility.

So who is to blame if a bad teacher is kept on for 30 years?I have been a teacher, administrator (1 year fill in) and then a board member and my experience tells me that any teacher not fired is the responsibility of the admin not doing their job. I have overheard admins saying "I'd fire them but I don't want to have to hire a replacement."

Place the blame where it belongs - and it's not with the rank and file workers.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Can you really believe
that newt gingrich and bill bennet have the magic answer for determining what makes for a great teacher?

Firing teachers based on the common high-stakes, multiple choice, rigged tests and the silly curriculum that they drive is nothing that will get you those great teachers. At this rate, the only teachers you will be left with will be the worst. They thrive under the kind of limited curriculum and drone mentality that these tests promulgate.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. Oh. Because I believe kids deserve good teachers, I supposedly support Gingrich and Bennet??
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #82
102. Sloppy thinking.
That's your problem right there. Do you believe gingrich and bennet want good teachers? No. Do you support the kinds of reforms that gingrich and bennet support? Yes. Will the programs you so ardently praise produce good teachers for most kids? No.

See the problem is that you just spout. The spouting comes from right wing propaganda. I know that stuff is more available, but if you really wanted you could learn more and be informed by real research instead of by MSM headlines.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #82
106. LOL....you won't find coherent, unbiased discussions of education
on this board. Asking those who derive their livelihoods from maintaining the status quo, is an exercise in futility. They just spout the same rants they've been spouting for 40 years....as dropout rates climb to over 30 percent in many urban districts. They don't want change; they want the status quo. The fact that they're not going to be seeing the status quo very much longer, causes them to launch into personal attacks against anyone who dares speak of the elephant in the room.

As with the dinosaurs, their days are numbered.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
100. "twisted" = lol. if you spout right-wing boilerplate aimed at union-busting & screwing
people, don't be surprised when it's tagged as hating.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. What happens outside the classroom is crucial.
If the parents aren't supportive of learning, then most kids won't bother to pay attention.

If the kids themselves are not held responsible, then many kids won't pay attention, either.

Teachers and schools can only do so much.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
92. What happens outside is massive displacement of the poor from the city.
Less poor people = less need for teachers

(According to the Democratic and Republican Party's OWN logic.)

(See cap rates, the mathematical formula for determining this.)

Your blaming the poor for their problems is clever obfuscation
of the fact that, from a business and city administration
standpoint, those schools are no longer needed and the families
no longer belong.

Obama agrees with this policy. He made his bones in Chicago
counseling inner city residents of the wealthy Near North to
LEAVE public housing so those areas could be gentrified.

His administration has backed New Orleans' efforts to shutter
95% of the city's schools, public housing (the only buildings
to withstand the flood) AND public hospital in order to make
way for a "leaner, less dependent on public services" population.

This, again, is known as cap rates. You'll have to study up
on the exact formula if you wish to be a city administrator.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
63. yes, and students should have to take pay cuts too. Oh wait..nt
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
74. So, why can't you understand that performance
as defined by the neocons you support is a stupid test. Do you know anything about assessment of learning? If you did, you would see the tests as the rigged trap that they are. But then newt gingrich agrees with you. So does bill bennet. Oh, and your are right in line with the thinking of george bush and ronald reagan. Using these tests to "prove" failure of schools is one key to their goal of corporatizing public schools. The other key is the MSM campaign to get you to believe them. It seems to be working for them.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. The voice of sanity. I am a former teacher, M.ed. I'm tired of poor teacher being protected.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Then become an administrator
And do the job your admin obviously didn't do. Trust me when I say that good admins are few and far apart. Be part of the solution.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
101. blahblahbl;ahbahbah
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 01:07 PM by Hannah Bell
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
96. oh, god. the boilerplate again. the powerful teachers! can't be fired!
blahblahblahblahunionbustersblahblahblahwingersblahblah
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. Rhee recently said that if Fenty is reelected, she'll continue to serve
Kinda says something about Fenty, huh?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. And I think she also said she would leave if Fenty not elected.
And that is pretty political in my mind. I gather he hired her.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. Most Democrats won't be cheering her. Those that pay any attention to education
know that she is the Pol Pot of education reform.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
65. Chancellor Rhee's bio says that her parents immigrated to the U.S. in
the 60's from South Korea. The President of South Korea until 1960 was Syngman Rhee, an elected President who became known as a heavy-handed authoritarian ruler. Makes me wonder if there's any connection. Can anyone provide any info on this?

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. you should start a campaign to make her post her birth certificate online
I heard the president has Nigerian blood too...
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. LOL
Rhee and its variants (Lee, Yi, etc) is the second most common name in South Korea.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #90
103. Why'd you have to go and ruin the racism?
:cry:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
95. Did you just become an idiot for this post, angibrowl, or have you been
one for all of your life?

I asked a reasonable question. Why do you have to start some stupid shit?

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. i don't see how it's reasonable
First, that's a very common Korean name - something you easily check with a search engine. Surely you recall the Korean war and can imagine that there might have been quite a few Korean immigrants to the US as a result.

Second, you're querying whether there's some genetic predisposition to a particular kind of personality....an idea for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but this puts you right down there with the birthers.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Or, it could put me right UP THERE with intelligent people who question
when they think someone might be benefitting from family ties. That would certainly be highly unusual, wouldn't it?

Genetic predisposition?? That is fucking hilarious.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. i had the same question. her folks immigrated about the same time rhee did.
typically the case that when a dictator's ousted, his hangers-on go too.

hmmmm....
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-10 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
66. That woman doesn't know JACK about teaching. She is just hard working at doing the bosses tell her.
Edited on Sun Jul-25-10 08:55 PM by w4rma
Unthinkingly.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
77. KIcked,
Sorry I'm to late to give it a rec.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
89. Bump but no amount of light will make the wilfully blind see
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
93. "The majority of Dems cheer Michelle Rhee" because she is "taking back the schools".
The upper middle class no longer feel safe sending their kids to public school unless they can be assured that their kids will only be attending classes with other members of the upper-middle class.

No money is to be spent on kids in "broken" schools (schools that the upper middle class refuse to attend or invest in for that reason).
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
94. Veteran teachers are being fired as states raid teachers retirement funds.
The two things are linked. There are trillions in teachers retirement funds. Local governments want that money so they can continue to reward their rich buddies with construction contracts etc.

This is one of the biggest scams ever perpetuated against the American people by our own government. By the time it is over, out of work teachers all across the country will be draining public funds and our schools will suck a rat's ass.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:26 PM
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105. Good on Rhee; I hope she's around for 30 years...and trains
the next generation of administrators.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. Why?
Care to elaborate on your opinion on the subject? and your knowledge of education in general and the issues in DC specifically?
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