A pack of cigarettes costs $12.65 in New York City.

[BurtWorm]

I noticed this this morning as I was buying my usual health food snack at the candy store. It seems that the state (or possibly the city, or both?), just raised the excise tax on cigarettes yet again on July 1. When I quit about five years ago, I was paying $7.50 for my smokes and I was fast getting tired of it. So I do tip my hat to the effectiveness of a cigarette tax as a deterrent. It worked for me. Still works. Better and better.

But I can't help think: Those chickenshit assholes in Albany (and City Hall)!! Is this how they want to make up revenue shortfalls for eternity now, just keep raising taxes on the poor fuckers who are hooked on nicotine? They really want to screw the mostly poor, now, smoke addicts to pay for the depression the bankers downtown fucked the rest of us into? Why don't these assholes get some spine and hike a nice steep progressive tax on the backs of those assholes who fucked the rest of us?

I'm willing to bet I'll get a few responses to this enraged rant of mine defending chickenshit excise taxing because of its effectiveness as a deterrent. I hope I don't, but that will just be a sign that the chicken shits who make these taxes are playing their cards right, dividing the healthy and self-righteous from the addicted and guilty so they won't all wise up and demand we shove a steep tax increase up the asses of the super wealthy for a change.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Of course they have to keep raising the tax - fewer are being sold.

It's a stupid fucking way to generate revenue, because it's guaranteed to reduce revenue in the long run. But they won't say that, they'll go "Wow, our cigarette tax earnings went up $25 million this year. That means we can count on an extra $25 million a year for the next 50 years! Let's set our budget that way!"

and then the next year it's down, but they already spent the money, so they have to raise the tax some more.... ad infinitum.

I remember when cigarettes hit the $8 and $9 mark a pack in NYC, and all the places upstate along the highways started advertising their much cheaper carton prices.

[BurtWorm]

5. Stupid--and so tempting for those dummies who can't think of any better revenue stream to tap into.

:eyes:

[Traveling_Home]

17. Is there ever a point at which the Government simply has enough of our money? nt

[walnutpie]

47. That's the point, it's not your money

You made that money in an environment that only exists through the collective work of the entire country. Your productivity could not exist without the collective, therefore, your profit should best be allocated by the government.

[Statistical]

53. "therefore, your profit should best be allocated by the government."

:rofl:

God I hope you are being sarcastic.

You honestly think the govt is flawless and will always make decision in the best interest of the people? Thus it shouldn't be entrusted with just some of the country's collective revenue but 100% of it?

[walnutpie]

65. If you look at history,individuals have made 100% of the biggest mistakes ever

;-)

[Fla_Democrat]

81. Who is running government?

Robots? :smoke:

[onehandle]

2. Illness due to cigarette use is a massive drain on state economies...

...and the poor are mainly who are on that bill.

Guess I'm a chicken shit for acknowledging the truth.

[BurtWorm]

11. Thanks.

:toast:

I knew there had to be at least one of you.

[Lance_Boyle]

12. Nowhere near the burden of fatty foods.

Your point has been refuted before - smokers die younger and cost fewer healthcare dollars than nonsmokers, especially obese nonsmokers.

[onehandle]

19. Smokers don't just affect themselves.

Their smoking affects everyone around them. In poor households, it's mainly children.

[Lance_Boyle]

24. So those other people die younger and cost fewer healthcare dollars, too.

Seriously, in terms of reducing healthcare costs across the board, more smokers (and secondhand smokers, if you insist) means more savings.

[onehandle]

27. posted in wrong place. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. Not really

credible studies show that smokers on average end up costing *less* in terms of medical care than non-smokers (because they die younger).

[LynneSin]

42. I was just going to post that - thank you

n/t

[Riftaxe]

68. It is your assertion that smokers contribute nothing

to state economies, not even our own president?

How much do smokers save economies by dying early and rapidly when compared with geriatric illnesses? BTW i don't smoke, but really don't condone using economics to control legal behavior, guess i just don't get my rocks off by dictating who is allowed to pursue a legal activity.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. If 100% of the sin taxes on cigarettes went directly toward mitigating the harm of smoking

I'd be with you. But those taxes are used to fund a host of programs that have nothing whatever to do with smoking or just go to the general operating funds. That is NOT the way you are supposed to pay for running a state or city, particularly when sin taxes do have the effect of disincentivizing the behavior.

[monmouth]

3. I need to contact our DUr that knows about e-cigs. I paid $64.65

for a carton of Virginia Slims (it was still less than one pack at a time)which is ridiculous. Not only health wise but I could spend that money on Rocky Road and other goodies...LOL...

[HockeyMom]

10. Until that get's hit with the junk food/fat tax

It's coming. Just wait.

[monmouth]

20. Ice Cream???? Out of my cold dead hands will they get my Rocky Road....n/t

[Inuca]

14. See my comment below

That's what I smoke as well, the super slims actually.

[Lance_Boyle]

15. blogslut n/t

[monmouth]

35. Ahh, that's right...Many thanks...n/t

[Broken_Hero]

51. E-cigs

work all right so far. I got mine about a week ago, I hope within the next two weeks I'll be 100% on the e-cig. So far, my consumption of real cigarette's has dropped drastically, about 1-3 a day, before hand I was at least 10.

[monmouth]

57. It was YOUR post that put this into my head and I thank you for it.

So, you still smoke 1-3 real cigs a day. That's a great improvement. I would give anything, like you, to be smoke free. I want to re-paint my apartment, clean drapes, etc. and until I stop smoking that would be futile. Thanks to your post I am on my way. Can I ask where you ordered from?

[Broken_Hero]

75. I got mine from a liquor store

yeah, no joke. The brand I got was Gamucci

http://www.gamucci.net/

I recommend that you go menthol, the regular cartridges have next to no taste. The menthol cartridges aren't that powerful in taste, but at least it mimics the taste of a cigarette.

There are different levels of nicotine cartridges you can get as well. The main PRO is that there is no smoke, its a mist, so I can smoke while I'm driving, which is a HUGE plus.

[monmouth]

76. Many thanks for this valuable info. ..n/t

[HockeyMom]

4. Where there is a will, there is a way

Long Island isn't quite as expensive at about $9 and change, but different brands are a lot cheaper. Ligget's at Walmart are about $7. My daughter's SO went out to the Shinnecock Reservation and got an Indian brand carton for $16. Think about that. An entire carton for the price of one pack in NYC.

BTW, I also heard they are now trying to put a soda and "fat tax" on certain items also. If they can get away with it on cigarettes, just imagine what else they can and will target.

[BurtWorm]

18. The problem with these taxes, besides being regressive

as Rabrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr pointed out (however you spell his name) is that the tax raisers will just keep raising taxes on them as the revenue goes down. Why don't they just go to the sure fire revenue source that won't hurt anybody: rich people? What is wrong with these dopes in Albany (et al)?

[HockeyMom]

29. Oh, I definitely agree

What really galls me on all this is that they say they are doing it to get people to quite smoking, eat healthy, bla, bla, bla. They just want an easy way to get tax money.

BTW, I live in Florida. The last time NY raised the taxes, Florida did too. Monkey see, monkey do.

[aquart]

6. No, smokers aren't paying for the bailout.

They're paying for ruining the health of millions. They're paying for the dry cleaning bills to get the stench out. They are paying for all the events, weddings, bar mitzvahs, anniversary parties, ruined by the haze of smoke and the choking relatives forced to leave early or not attend at all.

I don't give a damn what they're paying for. They cost me enough. I LOVE that a pack of cigarettes is a luxury item.

With any luck the rich will smoke themselves to death in private smoking clubs. There is nothing as selfish as an addict and I love that you already know you aren't getting any sympathy.

[unpossibles]

16. um. technically you can't smoke inside, and have not been able to for some time

I don't mind one bit - I am barely a smoker in that I enjoy one every now and then, usually when drunk, and a pack can last a long time, plus I like prefer outside - but thought I'd point that out to you.

[BurtWorm]

33. It's not the rich who are paying this tax mostly.

But keep feeling good about yourself. That's more important.

:toast:

[dmallind]

7. I don't see the connection frankly

I agree I think with what you say on both counts. I am fine with the taxes on cigarettes being this high because of the deterrence, and I also think they should raise taxes on the wealthy. I just don't see it as a zero sum game where one has any impact on the other at all. Raising cig taxes made them no more or less likely to raise income taxes on the rich, so we can defend the former perfectly well without granting them amnesty on the latter.

[BurtWorm]

25. Why do they keep raising taxes on cigarettes?

It's because fewer people are smoking. it's not because they want the remaining people to quit, really. If they wanted that, they'd just ban cigarettes. It's because the tax revenues from smokers is steadily going down. They raise taxes on smokers because they're too chicken shit to get money elsewhere, the bastidges!

[Inuca]

8. Why don't you ge them online?

More expensive (but still cheaper than NY) if from the US, much cheaper if from Europe (mine cost about $3). You have to order several cartons though.

[BurtWorm]

22. Why don't I? I don't smoke.

This thread is really more about taxes than cigarette prices. That's my intention, anyway.

[Inuca]

28. Me bad :-)

You mentioned buying the "usual", I just assumed... You definitely save even more by not smoking :-)

[BurtWorm]

31. I had to change that to make it clearer.

I usually buy peanuts and raisins on my way into the office. ;-)

(PS: They're only $1.25.)

[superduperfarleft]

48. It's illegal now to ship cigarette tobacco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PACT_Act#Under_the_Obama_Administration

Cigarette tax increases have also resulted in an increase in cigarette smuggling. In response, the U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed a bill to strengthen enforcement against cigarette smugglers. Entitled the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act, the measure targets organizations that sell tax-free cigarettes, improves enforcement toward cigarette smuggling between states, and bans the United States Postal Service from delivering most tobacco products. President Barack Obama signed the bill into law on March 31, 2010. The new provisions will go into effect on June 29, 2010.<11>

[rustydog]

9. Holy sheeittt! I quit smoking when cigs were 2.00 a pack

12 dollars?

[HockeyMom]

34. I remember $5.00 a CARTON in NYC

and people even stood on street corners giving out sample packs. Damn, I must be old. Lesson for all the "youngsters". Don't believe all they tell you about dying young from smoking.:evilgrin:

[LynneSin]

43. Yeah ha-ha-ha that's just so funny

I lost my father to smoking related cancer. Perhaps his grandchildren, whom he has never met, should be told that.

:grr:

[HockeyMom]

45. My Mom died of lung cancer at 75

She saw all her grandkids. How long are you supposed to live? I heard stop smoking can add 40 years to your life. So I can live to be 102????

My daughter is a lesbian. I doubt if I lived to be 102 that I will have grandkids. There are things you just have to accept.

[msongs]

21. junkie sticks cost about $5/pack in so cal. wish they were $12 so kids couldnt afford to subsidize

our corporate enemies

Msongs

[leveymg]

23. Why not just tax a pack of 20 reefers the same amount, and save the cost of enforcement?

[scheming daemons]

26. Good! Should be higher.... n/t

[BurtWorm]

40. You're actually demonstrating my main point here.

You (and everyone else who has expressed firm support for the excise tax) have completely ignored the beauty of taxes like this and why they're so irresistible to chicken shit law makers. They will rely on people like you who will be applauding so loudly for these taxes that you'll be oblivious to what's really going on here. They're not being heroes. They're being cowards. I realize this won't compute to you. Again: that's the insane beauty of this type of revenue raising! It's just brilliant!

[NeedleCast]

30. cigarette tax as a deterrent...why 'sin' taxes are a bad idea.

Except for the programs being funded by those taxes. This is why 'sin' taxes are a horrible idea. Once you "price out" the majority of the users, you have to find something else to tax or cut the program

[joeybee12]

32. Studies show the more costly, the less sold, in other words, fewer

people smoking...this is a good thing.

[BurtWorm]

36. Which is the excuse they'll always use to keep raising that tax

while sticking their thumbs up their ass when it comes to raising taxes on wealth.

[Raine1967]

70. Exactly.

Your OP is very well written.

What I despise about these taxes is that it is presented as tho this is for "their own good" . Regessive taxes are never good, and ones like this are only implemted to those that have less to try to get them to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' --

I do not like it.

[BurtWorm]

71. Thank you.

The subject can get me ranting a little because of the fundamental injustice of it, combined with the self-righteous hypocrisy it inspires in people. If they think tobacco is so evil, they should just ban it! But then there goes the money they want to make (and besides, prohibition is extremely expensive).

[HockeyMom]

38. Indian Reservations, Online,

Black Market. I don't think so.

[AnArmyVeteran]

37. Pot will be cheaper one of these days!

If pot was legalized it would generate enough taxes to pay for the recent unemployment extension. It's ridiculous that pot hasn't been legalized yet. You could bet your ass it would be legalized tomorrow if growing, distribution and sales were totally controlled by corporations. But since pot grows like a 'weed' anyone could grow it anywhere and corporations wouldn't be able to profit off of it.

[Oregone]

39. It already is

Maybe not ounce per ounce, but when you consider how people use both, you get much more of a bank-for-buck with pot. $30 bucks of pot is going to last the average pot smoker far, far longer than $30 bucks of sinny-sticks.

Ok...I don't know that for a fact...just a guess.

[JVS]

41. Sounds like a good opportunity for organized crime.

[HockeyMom]

46. My Dad worked the NY docks

Yep, a lot of cargo got "lost". Same was true when he drove a truck. What can be the most profitable on the black markets were the goods that were "lost".

[Bennyboy]

44. Wait till they legalize weed!

TAX, TAX, TAx,

[ljm2002]

49. Look for a robust black market to develop. n/t

[jobendorfer]

50. Vancouver B.C. did this back in the late 90s

It led to a wave of convenience store robberies. The robbers didn't want the cash in the till.
Multiply $8-$10 per pack by the number of packs per carton, the number of cartons per cardboard box,
and the 4-5 cardboard boxes you can fit on a handtruck.

It's a big number, the cigarettes are untraceable, and they move quickly on the black market
( even if all the robber got was 50% of nominal value, it's still a lot more than you'll get out of
the till. )

To the extent that the taxes discourage smoking, that's a good thing. But it can get carried too far.

J.

[Moosepoop]

79. Yep!

I work in a store that sells cigs. To illustrate your point, there are 10 packs of cigarettes to a carton, and generally 30 cartons to a case (cardboard box).

$8.00 X 10 = $80.00 per carton, X 30 cartons = $2400.00 per case, X 4 cases on a hand truck = $9600.00.

$10.00 X 10 = $100.00 per carton, X 30 cartons = $3000.00 per case, X 4 cases on a hand truck = $12,000.00.

For one trip in and out of the store. Using a small hand truck -- larger ones can handle six cases easily.

The store I work in has been burglarized repeatedly, from having the front glass doors smashed in to having a square hole cut through a metal wall with a torch. One break-in was for the ATM machine, it was hauled out with a chain and found later (smashed open, of course) in a river. But the usual target is the cigs, for the reasons you cited. We have all sorts of security now, including metal over the glass doors and an alarm system that uses cameras and motion detectors and is wired to a company that calls the police immediately if anything trips it. But I can envision an armed holdup during business hours wherein the robber demands not the money in the till (not much cash allowed to build up there), but demands a case of cigs instead.

Edited to add: The store I work in is in Indiana, which has a lower tobacco tax than New York State, not to mention the absence of New York City's additional tobacco tax. So the cigs where I work are not nearly as expensive as in New York. But a pack of Marlboro's is currently $4.99 a pack before state sales tax. Some brands are more, others less. So there's still a substantial amount of money in a case of cigarettes, even here.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. I'm in Westchester Co. and they're almost $9 a pack. I've been stuffing my own for over a yr.

[Freddie Stubbs]

54. NYC's loss will be NJ's gain

[davepc]

66. more like orgainzed crimes gain. counterfeit tax stamps and smuggled cigarettes = $$$

[Freddie Stubbs]

67. That also. But eventually NYC's cigarette taxes will reach a point where

revenue will begin to decline.

[rocktivity]

55. I can remember when thirty-five cents was considered expensive.

:crazy:
rocktivity

[Stevenmarc]

56. Here's a concept, stop smoking and cigarettes cost $0.00

[BurtWorm]

59. No shit? Really?

What will the government do to squeeze blood out of that stone when no one's smoking?

:think:

[Stevenmarc]

69. Mmmm

get back to me when that little alternate universe condition happens.

[krabigirl]

60. wow...sorry, just dont understand this puritanical sin tax mentality.

[BurtWorm]

62. It's exactly the mentality the sin taxers rely on to get away with it

over and over and over again. Easiest thing in the world for a politician to do is tax sin when other revenue sources are too politically scary to tap into.

[NeedleCast]

61. How about this concept

When everyone quits smoking (or is forced to quit because they are priced out of the market), how do you pay for the programs that the cigarette taxes are currently paying for?

[BurtWorm]

63. A sin tax really only works if the sin remains legal to be enjoyed.

This is the downfall of the logic of those who support such taxes, especially the ones who claim to want them higher and higher.

Essentially, they conceding that they don't want the sin to go away, otherwise they'd be crying to ban it outright. Or so you'd think, if logic meant anything to them.

[dtexdem]

58. Too cheap: raise the tobacco tax several dollars.

I stand with those you stupidly label "chickenshits."

Chickenshits unite! You have nothing to lose but your excise revenues! ;-)

[dipsydoodle]

64. Only about $2 a pack in Cuba

:)

[Tutankhamun]

72. In November, California is going to vote to legalize Marijuana.

This will be great for tax revenue. Even so, a lot of people will just grow their own and save a lot of money, both in taxes and purchase price.

[BurtWorm]

73. I'd buy a pack of spliffs for $12.65.

I might even buy more than one.

[yawnmaster]

74. The problem with sin taxes, especially tabacco, and I think its been touched upon here...

is when the taxes go into the general fund, and local and state governments start depending upon them.
When cigarette use goes down, so does the general revenue. What does one do then?

If the tax is earmarked for programs directly related to the "sin" then as the use goes down, so does the need for the program and the tax revenue does not need to be made up elsewhere.

[mwooldri]

78. If it isn't cigarette tax it'll be some other tax...

NC's a tobacco state, it's hard to get cigarette taxes to go up in Raleigh.

Sales tax seems to be the "in thing" around here lately.

The NC legislature had a means to get extra income but instead banned it - "Internet Sweepstakes" (video poker type machines banned in NC) will be no more soon. They could have taxed that instead.

I hope the hike on sales tax isn't on food sales... now that hits the poor badly, since a bigger percentage of their budget is on food than even middle-class people.

Mark.

[derby378]

80. Solution: Move to Texas

We've still got some wide open spaces left. Come on down! :hi:

[Drale]

82. This has a double effect

The states and counties are doing this for increased taxes but it is having the secoundary effect of causing people to rethink their smoking habit and I for one think its a great thing. Here in cook county illinois a pack cost 7.50 or somthing like that and all but one of my friends has quit (I never smoked) and it has really cut down on worring about everyone around me's health (Im a worrier, I worry about everything which sometimes drives me nuts).