Some of the arguments I've read here, and why they don't hold up.

[griffi94]

I've noticed a recurring argument here the last couple of days. The argument goes like this. “If the GOP were in the WH we wouldn't get anything.” While I realize that this is a valid point of view, the fact is Americans rejected the GOP, if we don't get enough it will have the same effect as not getting anything.

The citizens of this country watched as the failed policies of Trickle Down and Privatize cratered our economy. Jobs gone, money gone, houses gone. There simply isn't enough time left to work around the edges.

I read the comments from the Presidents supporters that say we need to be patient, the president is doing some good things, we can't expect to suddenly have all our pet issues addressed.
While that may sound reasonable, the sad truth is that for millions of working families, they don't have anymore time to be patient.
President Obama can't expect the families that are losing everything, to hang on while Democrats try to bail out the Titanic with a teacup.

President Obama promised “Change We Can Believe In”
I'm pretty sure that most voters didn't understand that to mean living in a carboard box out behind Wal Mart, or watching SS get gutted. He promised no more lobbyists in positions to make policy and a strong Public Option. What I think a lot of people are feeling is "Change We Can Believe In" has turned into “Protect the status quo”

I don't expect the president to turn the economy on a dime, but he does need to throw a little bigger bone to working people or at the very least a bone that has some meat on it.

I'm resigned to the proposition that I'll never count as much as the monied elite and I can live with that, but I still need shelter, food, and clothing and at least some money.

[G_j]

1. K&R

[bjobotts]

157. It's not a dictatorship. It is the repubs in the senate filibustering everything to bring failure.

They are trying to bring down the economy and hope you are confused enough to blame Obama for it. Dems may disappoint but the alternative is disaster, turning our democracy into a plutocracy. Keep pressuring Obama for what you want but know that it is the best that can be achieved compared to our alternatives. Please don't be complacent and let the crazies gain the majority again. Our nation would not survive. The repubs scream that $30 billion is too much to add to the deficit so refuse to extend unemployment benefits (which are THE most stimulating to the economy) but scream $678 billion is just fine to add to the deficit because it gives more wealth to the richest 1% of the country (the Bush tax cuts). We need more and better dems because these repubs don't know what they are talking about. Obama is one man. We need enough dems in the senate to overcome not only the filibuster Obstruction but to overcome the handful of DINOs siding with them.

These idiots want us to blame Obama for the failed economy that they brought on us and because it's not fixed in 18 mos. You have not considered just how deep a hole these repubs dug for us. Obama has stopped the massive bleeding and brought us back from the brink and I will not blame him because it's not happening fast enough when I know recovery would not be happening at all if repubs were in control. The wealthy are not suffering and are telling the rest of us to go fu*k ourselves through their pet senators.

[pattmarty]

194. Well I COULD agree with you IF Obama does not extend the tax cuts............

...........AND if HIS cat food commission suggests cuts in SS & Medicare he outright refuses to go along. IF he does these two things, I will get behind him AGAIN, if not all is lost anyway. At this stage, these two items are a "no compromise" fucking line in the sand.

[Dawgs]

238. So, now you hate Obama so much that it's future things he might do that have you against him.

Why would anyone want to be President with logic like that?

Wow!

[pattmarty]

274. Are you fucking high?

[TBF]

203. Here we go again with the "broken senate" meme -

y'all have a majority in both houses. Use it.

[verges]

218. Filibuster. nt

[Dawgs]

239. Bullshit. The Senate is broken. One person can stop or delay anything.

You need to pay attention more if you want to be taken seriously.

[obxhead]

261. The Dem's had the opportunity to end the filibuster under

Bush. They squandered that opportunity too.

Had they fixed it then, we would have lost a bit more in the late years of Bush, but would now have the power to actually deliver change.

[TBF]

273. I have no interest in

your opinion, as I have read your posts and understand the agenda.

[SwampG8r]

287. does filibuster mean something else now?

i keep seeing "gop filibusters" everywhere but in the reality
when was the last actual genuine filibuster?
you are right we have the votes we just wont vote them

[laughingliberal]

209. President Obama created the Cat Food Commission by executive order. Can't lay it on Congress.

The Senate did the right thing by defeating the bill to create it. I think if they come back with a draconian austerity program, it's on the President. Without him, the deficit terrorists wouldn't be behind closed doors plotting against us now.

[MineralMan]

224. The thing is that we don't actually know what that commission

is going to recommend. We won't know that for some time. Perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised. I have no idea what to expect, despite some of its members.

[laughingliberal]

228. Well, the chairmen of that commission are floating enough trial balloons to lift the Titanic

I'd be damned surprised if this isn't Austerity, American style. December, with the midterms out of the way, is when we'll hear.

Regardless, the fact remains that the Senate defeated a bill to create the commission and the President gift wrapped it in an executive order for the deficit hawks. Then, he appointed one of the most notorious haters of SS in history and the guy who was going to help Clinton privatize SS as the co-chairs.

[MineralMan]

229. As I said, we do not know what the commission will recommend.

We also do not know whether any of those recommendations will be followed. Commissions are a dime a dozen in DC.

[TBF]

231. Past behavior is often indicative of future behavior -

and I am not going to sit around and wait until they pass their draconian recommendations to respond. Y'all keep warning us "vote for Obama or you get Palin" - and you'd best remember that we don't have to vote at all. You get Palin too. So stop trying to push us in line and listen for once. We aren't buying the privatization.

[obxhead]

263. ....

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[laughingliberal]

232. But we do know we wouldn't have to be worrying about it, at all, if Obama hadn't created it.

The Senate defeated the bill to create it. Obama sided with the deficit hawks (Conrad and Gregg being the whiners who were insisting on it) and created it. AFAIC, whatever they come up with now is on him.

I'm just bookmarking all the threads where people are saying there's no evidence the commission is going to screw us and we can all revisit the predictions in December.

[Jackpine Radical]

256. You have so little faith.

You're just like all of those doomsayers who thought Obama would scuttle the public option in healthcare.

[griffi94]

265. but laughing liberal

that can't be right because obama can't do anything without the approval of congress Lol

[jobycom]

255. Obama is the first president to deal with filibusters? Obama isn't as smart as other presidents?

Seriously, some his supporters have the lowest opinion of President Obama of anyone here. They act as though he's just not smart enough or good enough or something to be expected to do what every other president of both parties has done.

The filibuster is always there. Other presidents get things done despite it. Grading Obama on a curve because people have such a low opinion of his abilities is not helpful to him or us.

[saigon68]

2. The WAR goes on at 200 Billion a year

Borrowed from China

Many are LIVING LARGE

Its hard to argue you are wrong.

Rahm and the Boys want to start another War with Iran for their own interests.

The Lobster and Cracked Crab is on for the Defense contractors tonight

[dmallind]

62. If we borrow $200B from China annually that must mean we've only been doing it for 4.5 years

China holds 6.5% of US debt,

[saigon68]

191. Don't forget the Wahhabi bunch--- they are in on it too

[dmallind]

260. Another tiny fraction. Biggest holder of US debt by far is our own government. NT

[closeupready]

3. K&R

n/t

[DevonRex]

4. Hmmm. You do know we have a Senate and a House of Representatives, don't you?

:shrug:

[griffi94]

8. Yes I had heard we had a Senate and HOR

I also heard the president leads the party. I heard we had solid majorities.
This is another argument that doesn't hold up. That the president is powerless before congress. Let's just say tho that you're correct and the president is powerless before the democratic congress. It seems like he should have put that caveat in his campaign.

[DevonRex]

11. ...

:rofl:

[pattmarty]

196. Yeah, LBJ was powerless with his Congress also.

:sarcasm:

[Lorien]

249. So was G.W Bush

Democrats in charge and all that...oh, wait...

[demwing]

72. What? Senate and House, you say! Preposterous!

Hrumph! Huurrrrummph!

Since the President can't do anything on his own, why then do we need a President?

[DevonRex]

75. ...

:rofl:

And every presidential candidate from now on simply must state that he cannot do everything on his own in every campaign add and every campaign speech he makes! If he doesn't, he's a LIAR!!!!@! ZOMIG!!!!11111ELEVENS1111!!!!

[Chulanowa]

87. Needs more tilde

~~~~~~~~~~

[Solomon]

91. Why won't he use his magic dictater wand?

The bastid.

[DevonRex]

93. Always has to do stuff the hard way.

He could at least use the nose twitch like Samantha. But nooooooo.....

[laughingliberal]

210. He did use it to create the deficit commission. The Senate, correctly, voted against creating it. nt

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Steely_Dan]

155. And I Assume You Have Heard...

...of the "bully pulpit?" You see, it takes leadership. The Senate and HOR is answerable to the electorate. President Obama had a rare opportunity to frame the message early in his administration. Instead he squandered that opportunity and allowed the RW to define the arguments. Leadership of the kind I speak is indeed rare. It is the kind of leadership where one can tell someone to go to hell and the receiving party can't wait for the trip.

-P

[laughingliberal]

207. Yes. I also recall the Senate defeated a bill to create the deficit commission so the President

accommodated the deficit terrorists and created it by executive order. I was happy when the Senate defeated this love child of Kent Conrad and Judd Gregg. Thanks to our President, they got it, anyway. It's on him if they come back with a draconian austerity program.

[NJmaverick]

5. The President has reformed Health Care (historic and something many presidents failed at)

The President has saved our economy

The President has accomplished historic Wall Street reform (as well as great new consumer protections)

The President has made major strides in creating a new Green Economy sector in our nation

This is just a few of his major accomplishments the complete list is well over 100 items long.

So what is your point exactly?:shrug:

[Donnachaidh]

13. spin spin spin

Our economy is FAR from *saved*

The Finance stuff is already being called as *inadequate* by many leading economists

And what you call *healthcare reform* is actually insurance company profit guarantees.

so spin all you want grasshopper. :eyes:

[NJmaverick]

29. Our economy is growing and has been doing so for multiple quarters

so that "spin" is incorrect


The "finance stuff" is being called a good start my MOST leading economists (so that's failed spin #2)

Healthcare reform has been solidly praised by Paul Krugman (failed spin #3)

so I think you need to try again

[JuniperLea]

104. Projected spin... methinks...

I think another try is in order as well.

[saracat]

132. It doesn't make a rats ass worth of difference when employment isn't available.

And so far, for most , all we have seen is our premiums in health care go up. We needed immediate relief , not speculative relief for the future. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

[pattmarty]

198. You're full of shit. Krugman didn't "solidly praise" the "reform"........

....Like most liberals he gave it a lukewarm "better than nothing". I don't recall Medicare in 65 being called "better than nothing". LBJ actually picked up seats in the midterms after passage of the ONLY true "reform" of our fucked up healthcare "system". Peddle your propoganda to someone that may believe it.

[notadmblnd]

24. I think the point is that most of us are just not feeling the benefits of these wonderful accomplis

I'm still unemployed, the family members I have taken in because they've lost their homes, are still unemployed (benefits have run out). Health care is still not available to those that don't have insurance and still can't go to the Dr. Now that UE has run out, and there's no chance in site of an extension, If I don't provide for them out of my small (2200.00 month) income, they can now not even purchase toilet paper or soap.

Do you know what if feels like to have your son's friends parents buy you a package of TP and send it over?

Now you may say, "well I see that you still have your internet connection. Can't you do without and use that money for necessities?" No, I can't. We need to use it to look for those non existent jobs we're all too lazy to take. The OP has a point, and maybe everything is wonderful in your little part of the world, but if something doesn't happen soon, the next step for many out there is homelessness.

Unemployment doesn't just hurt the person that is unemployed. The people living with me are dragging me down with them. And I'm one of the lucky ones if you want to call it luck. by virtue of my husbands death, I receive SS for my son and 600.00 of my husbands pension. If something good doesn't happen soon, then this time next year, I'll be losing my home too. Then none of us will have a place to stay.

Now I realize that the President doesn't have as much powers as many think and that congress is the throwing wrenches into the gears. However, if I recall correctly, when GWB wanted something and the Democrats in congress didn't give him his way- he didn't compromise. No, he got out his fancy dancey writing pen and signed an executive order.

So far the individual down here at the bottom isn't feeling his change, I think that is the point!

[NJmaverick]

30. I am sorry about your employment situation

However that doesn't change the fact that only 18 months have passed. So while the President has set an unofficial record for major accomplishments in the first 18 months in office, it takes time for all those new laws and regulations to take effect and have the desired effect.

[BlueCheese]

32. What a great post.

Sorry to hear of your situation. Best wishes.

[MineralMan]

35. Does President Obama have jobs he can offer you?

No? Then he's not actually in a position to create individual jobs. All he can do is to try to convince Congress to change things in a way that will improve the job situation. That's working, but very slowly. I'm not sure exactly what he can do that will change that speed. The President can't really enact any laws by himself, and doesn't have any money to spend other than what is provided by the Congress.

So, how would you like him to help you, exactly?

[griffi94]

45. i read yesterday

that the banksters are sitting on some trillions but not lending to small businesses. i'm glad they got bailed out so they can sit on the money...well except for ceo pay and bonuses.

[MineralMan]

47. Small business loans are up sharply since the beginning of 2009.

Have you applied for one? Are you a small business?

I don't believe the President has the power to force spending by banks and other lenders. I can't find that power anywhere in his Constitutional duties.

Again, I ask what you are doing to improve the Democratic majority in Congress. Who is your congress person? Are you working with candidates to help Democrats get elected. When I asked you that before, you just gave me an LOL.

[griffi94]

57. i just tried to post to this but it's not showing up

bailing out the too big to fail banks wasn't in his constitutional duties either.it seem like we can cherry pick what is unconstitutional and i seem to remember the work programs fdr implemented were also decried as outside his constitutioanl duties. still they helped put americans back to work.

as for for my congresspersons. i live in texas. i did have a democratic rep but lost him to redistricting.

[MineralMan]

63. I didn't ask that. I asked you your congressperson IS. Why are you not

actively working with his/her opponent to change that? Oh...I forgot...you're a "road musician."

As for the bank bailout, you may (or may not) remember that Congress had to authorize that. You know...our system...that's how it works. I asked you what the President could do on his own, without Congressional approval. That's why it's so important for you to work on Congressional elections. Maybe you'll understand me if I say it three times.

[griffi94]

69. ah i see

so it was congressional democrats that forced the bailout and made it impossible to get any stipulations put on it.
the president didn't say no deal until i get some concessions for the masses.

yeah i volunteered and all that for ron kirk...he got jack rolled.

[MineralMan]

71. So, now, you're going to give up? Really? Well, OK.

You do what you have to. I'm going to keep on doing what I've been doing for 45 years. It sure doesn't always work, but I can see no alternative.

Have a great life...

[griffi94]

80. haven't had a national election since then

i volunteered for carol keeland strayhorn in the governors race...she got ran as an indie and got wiped out because every vote that wasn't gop got split 4 ways. kinky ran in that race.

[MagickMuffin]

187. So you didn't support the Democratic candidate Chris Bell for Governor

Chris Bell, the guy who actually brought the charges against Tom BugBoy DeLay who was responsible for the redistricting scam. Bell brought DeLay's corruption to light. And yet you didn't support him or vote for him. Because of your vote for Strayhorn, which would have run as a Republicon if her numbers had been better ("she got ran as an indie" ) we got stuck with Goodhair again which he only won with 39% of the vote. How many other non-Democratic candidates have you voted for?!?!?


Amazing choice of politics you got going for ya. Your OP makes perfect sense now that you revealed you vote against Democrats.

[griffi94]

215. nope

i didn't support chris bell. that was my shot at being pragmatic. when the primaries ended and the race was down to the GE bell barely made a blip. this being texas i figured bell would do well if he got 25% of the vote.

i also figured. incorrectly as it turned out, that strayhorn had a real shot at unseating perry.
when the returns came in i was really surprised to see how well bell did, and had to face the fact that if i hadn't been prgmatic and just voted for the candidate closest to my position, and not the lesser of 2 evils who i thought could win, perry might have actually been defeated.

[pattmarty]

200. Why don't you just jump back into your BMW and quit trying to...........

.......micromanage another person's personal tragedies. You sound like someone that has never gone hungry or been out of cash not knowing what the fuck you were going to do for tomorrow much fucking less next week. Better read up a little more so you can pontificate on what poor/working people are supposed to do to live.

[MineralMan]

206. Try a 1991 Volvo station wagon.

You know nothing about me.

[pattmarty]

208. Nor do I fucking care to, after your uncaring response.

[MineralMan]

213. OK...

[Foo Fighter]

148. Don't feel bad.

My Rep. is a Dem and I called every single day in the run-up to the bailout. I would tell the staff that I was against the bailout and would detail my reasons. I would also ask them how the calls were running and without fail, I was told that the callers were 75-90% against the bailout. So how did my Rep vote? For the bailout, of course. So much for listening to your constituents. Yeah, this whole "representative government" thing is working out great. For the top .01% anyway. Seems they're the only ones whose interests are being represented.

[LibDemAlways]

165. +1000. The problem is simple. Our "representatives"

don't represent us. They don't care about us. They only pretend to care about us right before an election. Afterwards, they go back to representing the wealthy who finance their campaigns. Depressing as hell.

[notadmblnd]

76. did you not read my post?

I don't believe you did. Where does it say that I specifically wanted him to help me? Oh, that's right. It doesn't.

[saracat]

131. Why exactly is it we can't have a a WPA? It should be possible to do that.

Many writers, artists and actors as well as architects and manuel workers were employed that way in the thirties. The Government needs to create jobs.The recovery act is too bogged down contractually for anything really good to happen fast enough. Most "shoveL" ready projets" take at least two years to begin. We need action NOW! The excuses are just not good enough. You don't tell people in these kind of conditions to "wait"

[MineralMan]

136. Yes, but the money to create it has to come from Congress.

The President has no money. Go look up how the WPA was funded. Same situation applies.

From Wikipedia:

"Created by order of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the WPA was funded by Congress with passage of the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act of 1935 on April 8, 1935. The legislation had passed in the House of Representatives by a margin of 329 to 78, but was delayed by the Senate.<1>"

Sound familiar? No funding, no WPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

[saracat]

142. But the thing is, such an idea hasn't even been proposed.

and such a thing needs to be done NOW, before November.

[defendandprotect]

172. Many on the right would like WPA minimum wage jobs to replace unemployment insurance . . .

that's one part of the problem --

the other part is the GOP will also try to use WPA jobs to replace or compete

with union jobs --

As I recall hearing about a lot of these jobs, they were camps -- people actually

stayed there -- tremendous food there -- especially for people who hadn't had full

bellies in a long time.

Lots of these jobs were for youth --

Obviously we need to understand more about what they actually were -- and how they

could be used -- and/or abused -- today!

[MineralMan]

205. Well, such a thing could never get through Congress, so that

could explain why it hasn't been introduced. Same reason we don't have single payer health care yet. It's a difficult congressional environment, for sure. That's why we need to work so hard to change that.

[laughingliberal]

216. Advocating for something like that has value whether it gets through Congress or not.

First, it's the right thing to do. Second, if it's defeated, you call out the opponents and let the people know who's voting against them. Would have been a great campaign ad against the obstructionists. Highlight all the money they gave the banksters and then could find none for people without jobs.

[MineralMan]

223. Yes, that's a good thing to do when something would be a tight

battle for passage. A WPA-type project, however, would never even get out of the first committee in the House. It would be a complete non-starter. For a President to propose something that could not even get out of committee would be disastrous.

Every President has to choose his or her battles. We live in a political environment that is always close to being split down the middle. There is simply no getting around that fact.

[laughingliberal]

227. Many presidents have run against recalcitrant Congresses to good effect

I believe what some of us are asking for is to see the President choose a battle where he takes our side. Whether it made it out of committee or not, the President could still talk about it, call them out, and drive public support up. Once enough of the public is behind him, Congress gets worried about their jobs if they defy him.

Yeah, they have to choose their battles. We just notice he doesn't seem to be choosing he ones we need him to fight.

[MineralMan]

230. It could be said that he's pushed through several things already

at this point. They may not be your things, but some real squeakers have been enacted. Next will be the unemployment extension. Expect that one to get through next week. The Wall Street bill got through last week. Health care got through, even though it's a shadow of what's needed. All have gotten through on the absolute narrowest of margins, given the idiotic rules in the Senate.

If you think that stronger measures would even stand a chance, you're incorrect. Maybe, if we can shift the Congressional makeup further to the left, they will. But, that's up to us.

[laughingliberal]

290. I've seen little evidence the President wanted any stronger legislation than he got.

The push from his administration on HCR reform was to beat the progressives into line with the Blue Dogs in killing the public option. All his praise for the work of Congress last summer and fall was for Baucus' committee's RW HCR bill. President Obama also tried to say, late in the debate, that he never campaigned on a public option. I'd have to conclude he didn't want it.

As for the financial reform bill, his staffers worked the phones to kill the audit of the Fed that had strong bipartisan support and huge support among the public. They failed to kill it, altogether, but managed to weaken it and seriously reduce the information the public is privy to.

Blaming Congress might work if I had seen the President fight for stronger legislation but I did not see that. In several instances, I saw policies we had a good chance of passing quelled by the White House.

Yes, he's now pushing for the extension of UI and has, finally, awaken to the fact that cutting spending right now is going to strangle his 'green shoots' in their cradle. Until recently, he's been right there with the deficit hawks and his pandering to them has allowed them to gain a credibility that no responsible economist would have afforded them.

[county worker]

44. I feel for you and I think that more needs to be done and it looks like the unemployment benefits

may be flowing again.

The thing that gets to me in all of this is that it was the right wing policies that got us here and if they get back in power they will just do more of the same. They don't give a shit if you live or die. No we did not get what we were promised and I am pissed at that but at least we still have a chance with Obama and Dems in power. Without them you can abandon hope.

[notadmblnd]

106. I wasn't complaining, I don;t want anyone to feel sorry for me and I wasn't asking for help

I was just explaining one situation in hopes that some here may see the other side. Yes, I consider myself lucky. I know so many have it much worse than I do. But for people to come here and accuse us of expecting Obama to perform miracles when that is not the case, is in my opinion just being mean and nasty.

I don't expect him to work miracles. I just find myself wondering why I have to continue to make the deep cutting sacrifices while it appears that the rich don't even have to pay their fair share?

Maybe money would be better spent if instead of extending more unemployment benefits to the unemployed and Congress and the administrations could come up with some sort of jobs program? Maybe then so many here would not feel that the new poor and working poor weren't asking for a hand out?

[defendandprotect]

171. Congress has to refrain from "going home and closing shop" until they get more done . . .

Bernie Sanders was talking about making them stay open 24/7 -- and I agree --

they're way behind on much that needs to be done --

[pattmarty]

199. Bravo! I know it doesn't help much, but I hope you and yours have............

..........some success in the coming year, and YES, I and others here feel your pain too.

[laughingliberal]

212. President Obama signed an executive order-the one that created our lovely 'deficit commission.'

:nuke:

[JDPriestly]

169. Obama reformed health care -- a little bit, but not enough.

The President saved our economy for the richest of our bankers but not for underpaid overmortgaged homeowners.
The President accomplished Wall Street reform but it allows the trading of derivatives and accounting gimmicks to continue with virtually no restricions.
The President has made major strides in creating a new Green Economy sector in our nation, but I have not seen any increase in solar panels in the very sunny area of Southern California in which I live. The new Green Economy is another one of those things that is done for those who can afford it.

Sorry. I'm not buying this stuff. Half measures at a time of real crisis when we need some miracles. Less won't do.

Obama could work miracles if he didn't hang around with the timid Timmy, the sadistic Summers, Rahm the rammer and Bernie Bernanke. If Obama wants to do great things, he needs to change his team. He needs people who are strong, dynamic spokespeople for his administration, people who can bring the American people to Obama's side. If Obama had a team that could talk to the American people, excite us about Obama's ideas. his hopes, his dreams for America, then we would bring Congress in line.

Obama gives great speeches, and then the likes of Rahm Emmanuel gets on TV. There is not one dynamic, charismatic person on Obama's team other than Obama. He needs more people like himself to bring America around.

[Mimosa]

192. Good points, JDPriestly. n/t

[newspeak]

291. hear, hear

I agree, change the team.

[defendandprotect]

170. My point would be that you take a closer look at the details . . .

Health care is more health care deform than reform --

and same for the new financial bill which Dodd was using to propel

himself into a new career in banking -- and that's now what outsiders

looking in are saying -- that's what insiders working with Dodd are saying!

[Greyhound]

181. He's required every American to buy insurance.

That's not health care reform.

He has propped up the economy that collapsed.

And your oft pasted list has been worked over so many times, it's afraid to come out anymore.

But keep kicking the threads, we love the exposure.

[pattmarty]

197. Well then, we should increase the majorities in November.............

[Lorien]

251. Um, no. He reformed health INSURANCE to the corporation's benefit

but you knew that.

Saved the economy? By whose standard??? Half the people I know, including myself, have been out of work for months.

Wall street reform? Do you REALLY believe that anything will change there? Most of his staff represents Wall Street interests. But you knew that.

Green economy? Promising 2 billion for solar when he's spending hundreds of billions guarding oil pipelines in the middle east AND still leveling mountains here at home...you know, it's CRUMBS by comparison. He's protecting the status quo...but you knew that.

You can keep wasting you time spinning away, but I can assure you that no one here is buying it.

[Starry Messenger]

6. k & r

[sandnsea]

7. Sept 15, 2008 Lehman Bankrupt

I actually think most Americans understand that the country entered into a calamity that day. I don't think most Americans actually expect the kinds of miracles DU does.

In 1932 the unemployment rate was 23.6% and the GNP had contracted 13.4%. In 1936, GNP was growing again, but unemployment was still at 16.9 percent.

And the people overwhelmingly re-elected FDR even though the economy wasn't perfect.

[JuniperLea]

12. Perhaps today's society lives too much in fantasy...

American Idol can't save the economy... but I think people are expecting instant and grandiose action on cue... and some no doubt expect the heavens to open whilst a theme song plays at the moment of victory.

[Hannah Bell]

43. the only folks living in fantasy are the ruling class & their apologists.

[JuniperLea]

70. I beg to differ...

I believe it's those who think a year and a half is sufficient time to bring us back from the brink of disaster that was a decade in the making.

[sandnsea]

50. I went on a quick camp-out last night

Just to take our grandson overnight. The toilet was 50 steps away, water across the road, playground, garbage pick-up, and a nice flat ready-made tent site. It wasn't even one of the nicest state campgrounds I've seen, it didn't have showers or electric. I couldn't help but think about women in Africa who carry water an hour a day back to a tin shack. Sometimes we really forget how good we have it, even people living in low-income housing.

[JuniperLea]

68. We must be on the same wavelength

I found myself in a self-pity party the other day, and grounded myself with those same thoughts. I have a washer and a dryer, not a river and a big rock. I have a stove, not a fire pit. I have a grocer, not a hunter/gatherer. I have a car, not a beast of burden and a cart. I'm trying to stay in that frame of mind.

One thing I am grateful for is having been mostly raised by my grandmother, who is a child of the Great Depression... along with her 14 siblings. My great-grandfather worked for the railroad, so they did fairly well, but with that many mouths to feed, they learned frugality. My grandmother taught me a lot... much of which I never thought I'd need to know outside a campground, but it's looking more likely every day that I'll need to know and practice some of those things.

[MineralMan]

73. Yup. While I was at the supermarket yesterday, I stopped in the

laundry aisle and bought a couple packages of clothespins. I think I'll start using that clothesline that's in the back yard. It's been there since the 1950s, but it's still perfectly functional.

I wonder how much that will lower my gas bill...

[griffi94]

77. good for you

about 10 years ago when my electric can opener bit the dust i bought one the old manual ones...i still have it.

[MineralMan]

79. I've never had an electric can opener. The old ones work just fine,

and mine is over 40 years old.

[sandnsea]

97. We started using ours

Cut our power bill $20 in one month. Can't beat the freshness and we live on the coast so clothes don't get board dry either. It's terrific, especially with only two people now.

[JuniperLea]

102. Plus, your towels and sheets will get ultra fresh!

The sun is the best natural sanitizer! If I still had a yard, I'd be doing that too, no question. I love the smell of fresh laundry off the line. This was one chore my mom never had to bug me to do. I can still remember bringing an armload in, dumping them on my bed, and flopping on top of them to feel the warmth and smell the freshness. We didn't use fabric softener either... my mom swore it wasn't healthy... now we know she was right!

I always hang my work blouses and unmentionables *blush* inside to save wear and tear. Anything with elastic or synthetic fabric will last a lot longer if never subjected to a clothes dryer.

Good for you! I think you'll enjoy it. It's good exercise too... bending, lifting heavy, wet clothes... all that fresh air will do you good!

[Mimosa]

112. Not allowed to have clothesline: Another reason to HATE HOAs!

I live in a condo cmplex where they won't allow us to have clotheslines even in enclosed patios. I hate those people.

[JuniperLea]

114. Don't get me started on HOAs!

I live in a townhouse... the idiots on the board are on my last nerve. Long story short, and totally OT: We've had three property managers since I moved in here nearly seven years ago. Manager #2 had us pay association fees via coupons in a payment book. No statements. If you are late, you are charged $10. One of my payments was late three years ago. I think I was on vacation or something, or there was a holiday, and shit happens, right? Well, they dinged me for the $10... but because we don't get statements, I had no clue. The next month rolls around and I pay the fee... but the unknown late fee went unpaid, so I was dinged a second $10. This went on month after month, year after year, and I had no clue that there was an issue.

One day there's this lady outside my unit, taking pictures and notes. "Can I help you?" "I'm just checking out this unit... it's being auctioned tomorrow."

WTF???!???!??!??! Nothing by mail, no phone call, no notice on the door, nothing. It cost me $2500 in legal fees, and another $300 or so in late fees. What they did was totally illegal, according to the three independent real estate attorneys I spoke with, but it would cost me $5000 to sue them and recoup my $2800. What a racket! Naturally I raised a big stink with the board... I swear their collective IQ is lower than their collective shoe size. I'm continuing the stink making... the roof that has leaked since I moved in... the termite infested balcony railing... the bird nests in the tile roofs causing tiles to fall... the HOA board members who continually break all the rules...

They tried to retaliate by calling the animal control on my two dogs, trying to say they weren't licensed. Bite me! They are licensed AND chipped! Biotches are on my last nerve!

Never again... I'm out of here as soon as possible.

I'm spreading the rumor that I'm selling to a real estate attorney:)

I told you not to get me started!

:rofl:

[griffi94]

119. my neighbors hate me

we don't have an HOA and i refused to put in a lawn instead going with zeroscape that uses no water that doesn't come from rainfall. they bitched and moaned and tried to retro start an HOA, an got real pissed whn i told them i wasn't going to jon if they got it passed as i was grandfathered.
now they sometimes call the city and complain but the HOA petitions stopped.

[Mimosa]

120. I totally sympathise...

*hug*

Good to see you can rage and laugh at the same time!

[JuniperLea]

128. When faced with lunacy...

Laughter is a good shield:)

When I've lost my sense of humor, I've lost everything.

[Raineyb]

254. Lovely, so to make excuses for Democratic shortcomings you're going to argue

that it could be worse?

No shit Sherlock, people already know it could be worse, pointing that out doesn't mitigate not making things better and it's a piss poor argument. Not to mention it's a fucking right wing meme.

Really this is the most ridiculous argument I've seen all day. Of course the day is still young.

[griffi94]

17. yep

and in 1936 a lot more of the population was rural. so unemployment was high but the majority were not in any danger of going hungry or losing farms that had been in the family for several generations. well i guess the okies had a harder time eating.

anyway I'm not talking about re-electing anyone. I'm addressing the argument that the GOP is worse. Of course they're worse that's why Americans didn't vote for them, but things are still still pretty sucky for millions of working poor.

[sandnsea]

46. They didn't have food stamps, LIHEAP, school meals,

food banks, emergency housing assistance, Pell Grants, student loans, or any of the myriad programs that low-income people have today.

I've always thought these programs are the real reason the bottom never falls out completely anymore. They're like a built-in "stimulus" that didn't exist before the 50s and 60s even.

[griffi94]

60. they had

relief but i'm not sure how that worked. i always thought it was county sponsered.
with the cat food commission about to convene i wonder what will get chopped to feed the deficit hawks.

[sandnsea]

64. Counties still run "relief" programs

There just happen to be a greater number of them.

BTW, I got your game. cya.

[griffi94]

65. oh and one other point

i just read that low income housing is open to letting private business help pay for some improvements...i'm sure private business is doing that out the goodness of their heart and won't expect a return on the money. god forbid cops pay taxes that go to improve low income house...they don't get a bottom line return on those.

[sabrina 1]

31. Again with the false meme that anyone is asking for a miracle, or

purity, or a pony, or perfection or whatever other false choice of words that are in that bag of talking points.

I have asked this before, and received no response, but could you please back up your claim that anyone on DU has or is demanding that the President perform miracles?

This much we know. Wall St. got their ponies, they got exactly what they wanted, absolved from all responsibility for their corruption and no demands to show us what they did with the money. I would consider that a miracle. Who would have thought they could away with what has been described as the biggest Bank heist in history?

Maybe we SHOULD be demanding ponies, miracles, purity perfection. But we haven't, all people asked for was to stop caving to Repubican ideas and hiring Republicans for positions we assumed would go to Democrats.

Come to think of it, you have made me think that that IS the problem we HAVE been asking for too little, we need to take a lesson for Corporate American and start DEMANDING perfection.

Meantime I'd still like some links to those who have been demanding miracles as you claim.

[sandnsea]

52. My county: 14.3% to 10.4%

June 2009 - June 2010

It's going better than Roosevelt did.

If it's not good enough for you, what would you call better? I'd call back to 4% unemployment in a year a miracle. What would you call it?

[sabrina 1]

56. So you don't have any proof that anyone on DU has been

asking for miracles. Didn't think so.

[sandnsea]

67. As in "I want a miracle right now dammit"

no, not in those words; but in deed, absolutely, every hour of the day. And you know it.

[sabrina 1]

94. No, not only do I not know, it I deny it because I have never seen it.

Because it hasn't happened, because you made it up. You made a claim, you can either prove it or retract it.

Mindreading doesn't pass for proof. Your interpretation of what is in someone's mind, is just that, your opinion, but it is not a fact because the fact is no one every expected, let alone asked for miracles and to say so is an attack on people who don't see things your way. Not only is it deception, but it makes everything else you say irrelevant.

[glitch]

135. Oh hell yeah "we need to take a lesson for Corporate American and start DEMANDING" nt

[defendandprotect]

173. Let's be honest . . . corporate America owns our elected officials . .. they have the leverage ...

we don't --

[glitch]

236. True, but that shouldn't stop us. A riot is an ugly thing...

and I think it's about time we had one! (bff if you know where that came from)

[defendandprotect]

277. Any violence would be a HUGE mistake . . . which is why "fake protesters" are often used

to create disturbances within peaceful demonstrations --

That's long been used by the right wing -- to create doubt about the movement in the

minds of the population -- to make the movement look violent.

Nixon was great at that one -- remember his fake "Construction workers"?

Nixon also frequently arranged for thousands of faked telegrams supporting the war -- and faked

telphone calls and mail!!

In fact, if you think most of the right wing is faked -- you'd be right!!

[glitch]

288. Oh I agree. I just like the quote. nt

[Hannah Bell]

42. fdr put obvious reforms for the working class on the ground in his first hundred days.

when he took office in 1933 UE was 24.9%. it was down to 21.7% by the next year & kept dropping every year he was in office.

versus 5% UE in Jan 2008, 7.7% jan 2009, 9.7% jan 2010 & stagnant.

[defendandprotect]

278. And FDR wasn't "for a lot of things" when compaigning, that he was "against" later on . . .

As Speaker Pelosi rather frankly told us about Obama earlier this year!!

Not that we needed Speaker Pelosi to tell us!!

[JuniperLea]

9. Do you understand where the economy would be right now...

If Obama hadn't taken the actions he's taken?

"I don't expect the president to turn the economy on a dime, but "

That's a really big "but" you have there.

[DevonRex]

14. Do these pants

make my...

Oh, not THAT kind of butt? :rofl:

[griffi94]

19. let me try this again

the fact that wall street got bailed out didn't do a single thing for anybody i know that was already unemployed and behind on the mortgage. obama saved wall street...good for them, but 2 of my friends who were construction workers are in foreclosure staying with friends because it's hard to live in your car when you have kids.
so yeah thank goodness the GOP didn't win. because had they won....well we'd still be hosed.

[JuniperLea]

25. Who do you think bailed out Wall Street... aka the banks?

Really... I'm serious... who do you think did that?

[laughingliberal]

219. When the meltdown happened, Obama vigorously pushed for the bailout

He also had ample opportunity to change the rules once he took office. Nothing said he could not have imposed some conditions on Wall Street and the banks in order to receive the money. Only half of it had been spent when he was sworn in. He could have changed the rules on day 1.

[Dawgs]

240. Why are you ignoring the stimulus?

Is it deliberate?

[defendandprotect]

280. +1000% . .. unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime . . .

and we shouldn't be bailing out criminals!

[BlueCheese]

34. What actions are we talking about?

Serious question. Do you mean TARP? I thought that was a rushed bipartisan effort in late 2008. Or do you mean something else?

[griffi94]

86. my next sentence was

he needs to throw a little bigger bone to the working people. that's a big but huh. can't actually get anything for the millions getting pinched.

[JuniperLea]

105. Imagine if no bones were thrown at all...

If he'd gone with the GOP status quo right down the line. The line many of us would be in right now would be for bread and soup. He's saved a lot of jobs, and created a lot more. I'm tired of posting those links... seriously tired. Tired of arguing with those allegedly on my side... this is getting ridiculous.

[griffi94]

108. well i think it's ridiculous too

but probly not the same way you meant it.

[JuniperLea]

129. It took over 8 years to screw us this badly...

To think it can be solved in a year and a half is lunacy. I'm sorry, it just is.

[laughingliberal]

222. No, it took 30 years to screw us this bad.

It would be a good idea to start seeing that handing all the money to the wealthy with no strings attached and expecting them to use it to do right by the rest of us is a failed idea.

It's time to eradicate Reaganism from both parties.

[defendandprotect]

279. You mean, where would this nation be without corrupt and criminal capitalism . . .!!!

And without the corrupt and criminal adminsitrators who delivered that corruption being

brought into the administration by Obama -- ???

hmmm...


:woohoo:

[quiet.american]

10. I'm interested to see facts/links that back up your assertions.

Because I can, and have elsewhere on this site, produced a boatload of actual, verifiable facts to refute every word of the nonsensical assertions written in your OP.

And I'm not talking about posting opinion pieces from around the blogosphere. For instance, if Social Security has been gutted by Obama, I'd like to see a link to a CBO report or other credible entity.

[Abq_Sarah]

18. Personally, I'd love to see

A link that conclusively proves the economy was "saved". Particularly, considering that the stimulus didn't even reach the modest goals that were set.

[quiet.american]

55. In this case, your wish is my command:

Here you go:

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=967">CBO: Estimated Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act on Employment and Economic Output - 1st Qtr

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/20100216-annual-report-progress-recovery-act.pdf">WH: ANNUAL REPORT TO THE PRESIDENT ON PROGRESS IMPLEMENTING THE AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT OF 2009 - VP Joseph Biden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/CEA-3rd-arra-report.pdf">Council of Economic Advisers: THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF THE AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT OF 2009 - 3rd Qtr

http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx">Recovery.gov


(And your assessment that the stimulus did not reach its "modest goals" is inaccurate.)

[galileoreloaded]

117. Honestly, this is like asking your barber if you need a haircut.....n/t

[sabrina 1]

152. Lol, I was thinking the same thing ....

[quiet.american]

160. And if he says "yes", does that always mean he's lying? nt

[Abq_Sarah]

121. Sorry, I must not have communicated clearly

I was looking for proof, not assessments based on what they think might have happened.

[JuniperLea]

137. What would you consider as proof...

If not assessments from experts?

[quiet.american]

161. No. You're looking for something that proves a point that is opposite of what the facts are. nt

[stevenleser]

183. Actually, what they are looking for is worse than that.

A person demanding what that person is demanding is intentionally asking for something that cannot be proven. It allows them to keep demagoguing about what they want to demagogue about.

You can never prove what the economy would have done had you not done something or whether a particular action that you took made the economy do what it did. If a person asks you to provide such proof, you can be sure they are either to ignorant to know what they have asked for cannot be given, or they are intentionally being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Think childish phrases like "I know you are but what am I". These kind of debate tactics are just as infantile.

That person is not interested in any kind of productive discussion.

[Bobbie Jo]

253. Perfect summation. nt

[notadmblnd]

53. The OP didn;t say SS was being gutted

However, they do have the catfood commission looking into that, don't they? There is one fact about SS that I can impart with you and it is easily verifiable. The annual cost of living increase was eliminated upon Obama taking office. Maybe another 300.00 (25.00 a month) a year isn't a lot to you, but to many it means skipping a meal or two a week or not being able to go to the Dr. because you can't pay for an office visit.

Have you ever noticed the cost of necessities going down? Things like heat, electricity, water? The bills never seem to get smaller, but the damn paychecks sure do. Tell me why is it that the rich can't do without a big fancy vacation or celebration. Why do they not have to ever make a sacrifice? it seems to me that the working poor and the newly poor have to continue to make one sacrifice after another to get this country back on the right path again?


Maybe I wouldn't complain if I still had my 60k a year job? Maybe Obama would be alright with me and I'd be on your side of the fence arguing your points. But I don't. We're hurting. It's not a minor inconvenience. We haven't just given up a cup of coffee at Starbucks once a week or combined our errand/shopping trips. We can't afford to buy bikes to ride to save gas. We stay home, we juggle the bills in an attempt to keep the utilities at bay.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I would just hope that you could step over to the other side for a moment and think about how you would feel if you were in such a position.

[quiet.american]

81. I re-read ---

And yes, the OP actually did say that.

As for your statement about the $300.00 being eliminated, it was not eliminated because Obama took office and decided to eliminate it -- and he *did* address the shortfall when he took office by sending Social Security recipients $250.00 checks funded through the stimulus program, which is very close to what the annual increase would have been ($300.00)

FactCheck.org shines a clear light on the COLA issue:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/social-security-cola/

Obama's Social Security budget - 1st Budget, 2010:
http://seniorliving.about.com/od/socialsecurity101/a/obama-social-security-budget-2010-.htm

Please don't make the mistake of thinking I'm living large on some luxurious side of the fence, because I'm certainly not. Sometimes I marvel at just how am I making it. Full disclosure: I've never made $60k/yr in my life and have taken a $20,000 pay cut over the last two years (Obama is not to blame for that; that's largely due to my own life choices). I've been walking an economic tightope just like everybody else these days. For a couple years.

Look, what I see going on is that people see problems out here, and instead of becoming informed about how the Obama administration is addressing it - they're conflating the problem with the person who's trying to solve the problem, instead of maybe, just maybe taking a moment to think he's actually trying to do/doing something about it.

[notadmblnd]

107. No, they said "watching it be gutted"

And with the cat food commission in full swing and with what we hear coming out of it in regards to SS, there's a good possibility that we are watching the beginning of the gutting of SS. Does that mean it's happening yet? Again, I ask, why do the working poor and the newly poor have to make another sacrifice and give up SS dollars, while the rich can't even be asked to contribute another dollar towards it?


I never said in any of my posts that Obama wasn't doing anything about it. What I did say, is that little guy isn't feeling it yet.

[quiet.american]

159. No. The facts are not on your side. nt

[notadmblnd]

266. Which fact isn't on my side?

The cat food commission isn't talking about gutting SS?

The working man isn't feeling the change?

That I never said; Obama wasn't doing something about it?

That the rich aren't making sacrifices?

[sabrina 1]

141. How did bailing out Wall St. save the economy? We are in

the early stages of a depression according to economists now. I'd like to see links proving this claim. As far as I know, the bail-out stalled the complete collapse of the economy temperarily but there is nothing to prove that letting them fail, and bailing out Main St. wouldn't have been a better place to put the money. In fact many economists believe that is what should have been done.

Prosecute those who collapsed the economy through corruption, split up the 'too big to fail' institutions, and fire all those who oversaw the failure. Then provide a huge stimulus package to Main St. Put a moratorium on fore-closures. Eliminate the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, and put money and energy into a huge jobs program.

All that happened by giving Henry Paulson the money to cover their bad gambling debts was to perpetuate a system that shows no signs of reforming itself, in fact they were back to business as usual as soon as they got the check.

[quiet.american]

163. Sabrina -- the ten biggest bailout loans have been paid back by the banks - with interest.

The US Treasury just made $3 Billion for taxpayers on selling part of its stake in Citi.
,
One of the first things that was done, even leading up to Obama's inauguration was a moratorium on foreclosures. Yes, it had a limit date, but it was done.

The SEC just closed it's biggest first prosecution with Goldman and are pursuing more.

Democrats and Obama do not want to extend the Bush tax cuts.

You may not like it, but this country operates on a system of capitalism. If the markets go down, and the job situation is dire now, what then?

Where have you been that you are completely unaware that "money and energy" have been put into jobs programs since DAY 1? Every piece of legislation developed by Congress and signed by Obama has a jobs component if at all possible. How do you think Obama has created over 2 million jobs in under 2 years?

[sabrina 1]

178. I am aware of most of what was done.

I am saying that the trillions being poured into the preservation of a corrupt system would be better spent bringing back manufacturing jobs, building infrastructure, the country certainly needs it. The Market doesn't put food on the tables of the working class. Construction, building homes, manufacturing, development of ideas, like alternative energy programs which it must be obvious by now, is necessary. Those are the things that keep the country running.

Training more doctors, nurses, teachers. What does the market do to help keep this country running? If anything, the Market IS the problem. Investing people's pensions in the Market hasn't turned out too well for many people, it is nothing more than gambling.

Frankly, I don't see what the Market does today at all other than attract people who are willing to take risks with other people's money. When it was a question of people investing in companies that actually produce something, that was different. But all it is today is a huge gambling casino where people sit around doing things like bundling mortgages and shuffling papers conning people into investing in these 'things' that have no value, then insuring them, betting on them failing, and collecting before the whole ponzi scheme is exposed. Exactly what good does all this do for this country? Betting on people dying, when they will die, betting on wars, betting on this country failing. This is worth something?

As for Bush's tax cuts, I hope that gets done. I know none of this is easy, I know the mess that was left by the previous administraion. But it wasn't just Republicans. Democrats participated in tearing down the safeguards against corruption in the nineties which led directly to what happened hardly ten years later. Sen. Dorgan, one of the few who voted against the Gramm/Bliley Act warned what would happen.

Corruption hasn't been dealt with. The fine Goldman Sachs has to pay was a slap on the wrist. Where are the prosecutions of the criminals who brought this country to its knees?

It doesn't inspire confidence to see the same people who caused the problems still controlling things. Maybe it's too late to reign them in, maybe they have too much power and presidents cannot do much about them. Because that would be the only explanation for keeping people like Geithner around, a man who has a record of failure, or Bernanke, Summers et al. Presidents seem to come and go, but these unelected people never go away.

I still believe that the failed banks should have been allowed to fail. And corporations that are 'too big to fail' should be broken up. Because if none of that changes, it can all happen again.

[Nay]

201. Thank you, Sabrina. I don't know why it is so hard for others to see

this as true. The corruption has NOT been dealt with, and the sight of so many of the perpetrators and enablers in positions of power, put there by Obama, is sickening. Would FDR have done that? Or LBJ? I doubt it. If they had a few enablers working for them, I bet FDR and LBJ rode roughshod over them to keep them in line. I bet they didn't let them run things the way they had been run.

[defendandprotect]

283. +1000% . . . those who created the disaster are now in the administration -- !!

[stevenleser]

186. How dare you quote facts at the Obama haters!

To interrupt a perfectly good and knowledge-challenged hatefest with facts and truth is just plain wrong.

[Greyhound]

258. That is another of The Big Lies we're sick of hearing told.

What's the use, never mind.

[defendandprotect]

282. Most companies that are "bailed-out" are able to regain their footing . . .

that means nothing except that we gave them the opportunity after they followed

corrupt practices --

and that's the question -- why bail out capitalism which is corrupt?

Meanwhile, we need assistance for citizens who are unemployed and underemployed --

and there is insufficient job creation --

the way to do it is to overturn or amend the trade agreements and Obama isn't going near that.

Also to cut the MIC budget-- Obama isn't going near that, either -- in fact, we still have

these fake and illegal wars raging with evidently full support from Obama and the Demcorats

who have been re-financing them since '06!

We also need to overturn the Reagan and Bush tax cuts -- another issue that Obama and Democrats

simply like to do the reverse on -- i.e., RENEW???



We also know that these banks have been borrowing money from the Fed at almost no interest --

and turning around and using that bail out money to invest in Treasury notes/securities which

pay 3.5% and 4.% ...

We're going to have -- let's hope -- one of the first audits of the Fed ever soon --

We're now also going to give banks another $30 BILLION under the new financial legislation

so that they have money . . . "to lend to citizens"!!!

[laughingliberal]

225. One verifiable fact is that the President created the Cat Food commission by executive order

No, they haven't gutted SS, yet. They're still behind closed doors planning America's new austerity program and they have no intention of unveiling it until the midterms are safely out of the way. The Senate defeated the bill to create this commission and we all breathed a sigh of relief. The President then turned around and made it happen for the deficit hawks who couldn't get their bill through the Senate.

The gutting will commence in December.

[hulka38]

257. You Obama backers love to talk about precedents under this President..

Another historic first will be the alteration of SS policy and the permanent weakening of its mandate that will enable the dismantling of the social safety net established long ago under the New Deal. It hasn't happened yet but it will and Obama's just the guy to do it.

[defendandprotect]

281. Is the "Cat Food Commission" real or pretend?

Are the right wing in charge of that commission?

Did Obama have anything to do with it?

And -- btw -- by the time Americans wake up to this latest scam on senior citizens

it will be too late --

but then again, they were only expecting Repugs to be attacking Social Security and

Medicare -- not Democrats -- and certainly not Obama!!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

16. OK. Let's say you're right. What measures could President

Obama take to solve this problem with jobs? Since you're one of those out of work, what could he specifically to to get you a job? What could he do, himself, to fix the problem?

I know I've tried to think of some action that falls within his authority that would fix the problem, but I've been unable to think of anything that wouldn't require Congressional action. The only money the President controls personally is the money the Congress provides to run the Executive Branch.

So, what are your ideas? You've stated the problem.

[griffi94]

20. i'm not out of work

[HughMoran]

23. So you don't have any answers at all

Interesting.

[MineralMan]

27. Then you're a lucky person. Many are out of work.

I guess I was confused by this phrase in your OP: " but I still need shelter, food, and clothing and at least some money."

I took that to mean you didn't have a job. Do you still need, and not have, those things?

Who is your congressperson? R or D? If R, are you working for his or her opponent? If D, how about the neighboring districts?

We all have to take the initiative, here. It can't be left up to the President. It is the responsibility of each of us to work to elect legislators who represent our beliefs. That is how it works. Those who elect their own representatives are represented by a person who shares their values. Those who do not are represented by people who do not share their values.

While none of us succeeds every time, we must try. It is how our system works -- or does not work.

[griffi94]

36. i'm a road musician

i'm never out of work....i am sometimes out of money lol

[MineralMan]

37. LOL? Now it's amusing?

I'm sorry. I guess I took you for someone who had a serious problem due to the economy. Never mind. I won't waste any more of your time. :shrug:

[sabrina 1]

168. The OP was pretty clear to me. He was simply saying that 'people'

need those things not necessarily him personally. Maybe the problem is reading comprehension?

[defendandprotect]

284. Amend or overturn the trade agreements . . . of course -- !!

AND, stop pouring money into corporations to create jobs --

Overturn Reagan and Bush tax cuts for rich --

Renew Glass-Steagall --


I'm sure you recall re the banks that we bailed them out after corrupt practices --

and they used bail out money from Fed at 0% or a bit above to invest in Treasury notes/

securities at 3.5% or 4% interest rather than lending the money out to communities/citizens.

NOW the new financial legislation will give $30 BILLION to banks . . . so that they can

lend money to communities and citizens!!


And that's only one small part of the "change" we're getting for our votes!!



PS: END THE FAKE AND ILLEGAL WARS -- THAT SHOULD BE FIRST ON ANY DEMOCRAT'S LIST!!

[HughMoran]

21. Who's next on the bashobaminator?

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

285. So any criticism of Obama is "bashing" . . .

actually one of the "you want a pony" team has now progressed to calling it

"disembowling of Obama" ---!!

Perhaps because he's so close to frustration in recognizing that he has a losing

argument and that it is only doing his own cause harm?

[EC]

22. I'm sure you know that Obama tried for a larger stimulus

and a better health care bill etc...so what is it you figure he can do without a super majority?


I'm guessing most of what has been done can be augmented through reconciliation in the future and I'm thinking the last 3 years of term 2 are going to be pretty interesting...

[griffi94]

38. don't know about the stimmulus

sorry don't believe you about the HCR bill. sold the PO out and has now put wellpoint execs in charge.

[Robb]

40. "Execs"? How many now?

...And did you know FDR worked for the law firm that defended Standard Oil? :rofl:

[griffi94]

49. liz fowley

but you knew that probly.
fdr has the creds...so far obama doesn't...maybe he'll get, maybe not.

[Robb]

54. I was pointing out you used the plural.

For effect, surely. ;)

Tell us about FDR's "creds," exactly. Specifically which creds did he have when he went to work for that corporate attorney? :D

[griffi94]

153. typo

[sandnsea]

61. That's not all there is to her career

Prior to current job, she served as the Chief Health and Entitlements Counsel for the U.S. Senate Committee on Finance. In this capacity, she was responsible for overseeing health policy issues within the Committee's jurisdiction, including Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, health tax issues and initiatives to provide health coverage for the uninsured. She played a key role in the 2003 Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act (MMA).

Liz was an attorney with the Washington law firm Hogan & Hartson, and she spent nearly five years as a health services researcher with HealthSystem Minnesota (Park Nicollet nonprofit). Liz received a B.A. from the University of Pennsylvania, a Ph.D. from the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, where her research focused on risk adjustment, and a law degree (J.D.) from the University of Minnesota. She is admitted to the bars of the District of Columbia and Maryland.

[EC]

58. That's your right to BELIEVE what you'd like

it's just not the truth...low information causes these beliefs...maybe you should use google and explore a bit...


More can be done on health care when it's less toxic...now that the initial law is passed - it'll be easier to improve it with only majority vote...


What exactly do you mean by sold us out? He did more than any other President could or did on health care...did you really think he'd be able to push through single payer without support in the House or Senate?

[griffi94]

158. lol believe what i'd like

as opposed to what i see with my damned old lying eyes. that's a good one.
i didn't think he'd push thru single payer. i expected a strong public option like he said in his campaign. oops there go my lying old eyes again Lol

[sabrina 1]

246. He got the bailout with faux opposition from Republicans.

Why is it that he can pass bad bills without Republican support but cannot pass bills that help the people without Republican support? That excuse fails because of the passage of the HC bill with NO Republicans, same thing with the bail-out.

But when it's a stimulus bill, all of a sudden it can't be done.

[Robb]

26. "Americans rejected the GOP" is a touch of an overstatement.

60 million people voted for the other guy, who was nuts, and his running mate, who was even more nuts and stupid to boot. :shrug:

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[griffi94]

41. you're missing the point

if someone has lost their job, and then their unemployment bennies and then their house, what difference does it make that it would be worse under the GOP. how in the hell could it get any worse, are they going to come by and poke you in the eye.

[county worker]

48. Look there is a chance the Dems may become more progressive or may do something in your interest.

There is no chance for you if the repubs are in power that's the difference.

I was homeless and living in my car in San Diego. I know what it means to lose everything. What I didn't lose was my belief that I could make a comeback.

It may not be all up to Washington.

[griffi94]

51. i admire your tenacity

and no it's never all up to any one thing. but millions are being squeezed and the buck has to stop somewhere.

[Mimosa]

122. ^ You're exactly logical, Griffi ^

Nobody at all wanted miracles. Rather we wanted strong leadership on what affects the most people's lives. Congress need their arms twisted by a leader. They get away with too much.

[hfojvt]

164. it could be raining

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AFf0ysgNiM

The trouble with this argument is that it simply does not apply to most of the complainers. Most of the people on DU who are eager to see Democrats lose in 2010 and Obama lose in 2012 have not lost their job, have not lost their unemployment bennies and have not lost their house. Yet they are going to posture and be in high dudgeon in the name of the jobless and the homeless. "Democrats deserve to lose because Obama, Reid and Pelosi have not kicked a$$ and taken names, and they haven't created 6 million jobs to make up for the seven million that Bush lost before he left office (insert standard laundry list of complaints here, starting perhaps with Rick Warren and including Larry Summers, and Wall Street got bailed out but Mainstreet didn't, and we didn't get single payer, etc., etc., etc.)

[griffi94]

175. so what you're saying is

that most people haven't had to face a major economic crisis and they're just pissed because they feel like obama misled them.
if they still have a job, and haven't been foreclosed on, then they shouldn't complain because obama didn't deliver a po, hasn't stopped the war in iraq, did reinstate the patriot act, did put a wellpoint exec in charge of implementing HCR and so on and so forth.

because nobody should expect an elected official to do what they said they'd do. or be disenchanted when they find out they've been misled.

[hfojvt]

270. what I am seeing here is that you just moved the goalposts

looking for another reason to vote Republican in 2010.

If you feel misled, then you were not paying attention. Obama has always sold himself as a centrist http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1245681&mesg_id=1251139

Although, reading that, it seems like I have flipped on DU as well. DU now sorta reminds me of "Counterpunch". I used to enjoy reading articles at that site, then the Democratic primaries began in 2004, and Counterpunch changed into a site that was mostly punching at Democrats.

If you are mad because we didn't get a public option, then why be mad at PRO? Why not be mad at the Republicans who refused to budge? Is Obama and the country really gonna move left if Republicans take over all or part of Congress in 2010? Then why have an OP which essentially says "Reason #431 for why Democrats deserve to lose in 2010"?

[Raineyb]

259. How the hell do you know? Do you have the stats on everyone you complain about as

complainers or is this "fact" a little ditty you pulled out of your ass?

I'll answer my own question. It's the latter not the former.

[hfojvt]

269. I feel pretty safe in playing the odds

The unemployment rate is 10%. So 9 in 10 Americans still have jobs. Of the 10% who are unemployed, perhaps as many as 1/3 of them have lost their unemployment bennies. So now we are down to 3.5% versus 96.5%. There have been about 8.78 million foreclosures in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. That represents about 13% of all homes, and including renters, about 9% of all households. You might think that there are higher odds that members of the 9% would be part of the bitter and disillusioned and disgusted, but I also think the odds are good that if somebody really was losing their unemployment benefits or their home that they would be too busy and have bigger concerns than taking time to get on the internets and write a whole bunch of "Democrats suck, vote Republican in 2010" type posts.

[Raineyb]

289. 9 in 10 Americans still have jobs?

Except the Unemployment numbers only count certain people. If you've given up after 2 years you don't count. If you're working a part time job that doesn't pay the bills while looking for a full time job, you don't count. If you've dropped off the rolls, you don't count. They've been gaming the numbers for years so your 9 out of 10 Americans are working number is more wishful thinking than actual fact.

[defendandprotect]

174. The GOP might destroy Social Security and Medicare . . . eh... wait . . .isn't Obama

doing that now?

The Cat Food Commission is Coming! The Cat Food Commission is Coming!

[uponit7771]

33. What are you doing to get Obama the congressional resources to act faster? TIA

If you think he has the congressional resources to act faster than 2 years on most things then look up the congressional resources LBJ or FDR had.

[MineralMan]

39. Bingo. I asked the OP that question, too.

So far, I just got an LOL. I give up.

[defendandprotect]

176. The problem isn't numbers . . . the problem is both parties having been moved to the right. ...

The GOP targeted their own liberals and moderates AND they targeted Democratic

liberals and progressives --

and Rahm/DLC has continued to move the party and its candidates to the right --

Do you really think that's going to get Obama -- or the American public -- the kind

of Democratic candidates we need?

We've known for 40 years and more that corporations were buying government --

ALL OF GOVERNMENT -- all of our agencies -- all of our elected officials and candidates!!

[socialist_n_TN]

221. Well, I supported Sestek and Halter in Senate races

(small support at best as I don't live in those states), but Obama didn't. Both of those candidates polled better in the general than the candidates Obama DID support. So why is Obama not trying to get the Congressional resources to act faster?

I don't want a "pony", but I WOULD like to have a seat at the table. Discuss REAL leftist options. If Alan Simpson can have his FAR right opinions and be a co-chair of the catfood commission, along with the right wing Bowles as the OTHER co-chair, why can't somebody like Bernie Sanders be on there too? I want to see REAL leftist options discussed. Otherwise, I'm thinking that they don't want to discuss them just BECAUSE they might be too popular with the people.

[Chulanowa]

59. Yours doesn't hold up either

Your argument is that even though the president can't magically make everything better, he should, and the fact that he doesn't makes him a bad person. Amazingly, voters have spent fifty years imagining that the president has total control of the economy, and the idea that all he has to do is flip a switch and we'll all me living like kings. He's not a ninja, he doesn't have Real Ultimate Power.

[griffi94]

74. no it's not

my argument is what difference does it make which party is in control if we die anyway. the president promised meaningful change....almost 2 years along and it's still just a promise.
in fact we're being told it's going to get worse. see i don't have to have the answers because i'm not the president, i never promised anybody anything. but right now many people no longer believe that the president has any answers either and unfortunately he did promise some things.

[MineralMan]

78. Well, when things get better for you, you should be able

to afford a keyboard with a working Shift key, anyhow. :hide:

[griffi94]

82. i'm on my netbook

and i dropped it the first day i had it...it makes the keys stick...i was editing but that was getting tedious.

[Mimosa]

113. Why are you hassling Griffi for telling it like it is for many Americans? n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

130. Not hard to figure out the answer to your question.

Blame Obama is the reason. :evilgrin:

[OnyxCollie]

133. Supporting inequality among groups,

in particular those who question/refuse to defer to authority, are traits characteristic of Right Wing Authoritarian and Social Dominance Order personalities. The mocking, condescension, dog-piling, argumentative fallacies and other bully tactics are the norm at Freeperville, but we are forced to tolerate them here because of a few individuals who lost their way on the liberal-conservative self-placement scale.

We can only hope they have an epiphany a la Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense, but I think that's unlikely.

[MineralMan]

134. Because it's just another "blame Obama" screed.

And most of the information is simply incorrect.

[griffi94]

151. yeah you're right

we're in the money...everybody is doing just fine. mission acomplished. Lol

[defendandprotect]

177. Was that necessary . . . ?

There's always a choice -- the high road or the low road --

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[griffi94]

89. not even close

i know how our govt is split and i'm hardly an idealist. my op was about the argument i keep hearing that had the gop won we'd get nothing, and my contention was if we don't get enough...and in time it will have the same effect as getting nothing.
so the point becomes is it really any different to starve to death under the democrats or the repubs. the fact that the dems had 60 seats in the senate and a majority in the house and the white house led many americans who voted for obama in 08 to expect some more immediate relief that has so far largely not shown up.
your civics lesson notwithstanding it doesn't matter why the relief isn't showing up...but the banksters got theirs first and the wars rage on and the private delivery system for health care has been preserved and now it's time to throw a bone to the masses like extending unemployment bennies and suddenly we have to do something about the deficit.

[Chulanowa]

92. You're pounding the walls in outrage over Obama...

Even while you seem to realize it's the spineless fucks in Congress that are to blame.

I guess he's just an easier target.

Personally, I'd rather have an Obama with one hand tied behind his back, than an Obama who thinks he's King like Bush did.

[griffi94]

95. i'm not pounding anything

i'm not particularly outraged. this is just the way it is. and i said in the op i'm resigned to accepting that i'll never count as much as the monied elite.
the spineless fucks surely deserve some of the blame but to lay it off on congress entirely is a bit dishonest. obama wanted to be president, that's just a fact we didn't run him down and make him be president. obama promised meangful change. again this is just a fact. myself and millions of others don't feel that meaningful change has trickled down to us yet.
hell i didn't even say it was all his fault, but you seem to want to say he's blameless.
and while it's not entirely his fault, well it his problem, because he's the leader, and blaming congress will only work for so long.

[Chulanowa]

96. Might I suggest reading over Frenchiecat's latest thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=376055&mesg_id=376055

He's been a little more effective than you (want) to think.

[griffi94]

99. i'll pass thanks

but i already know about wh.gov.
reading press releases is facinating tho.

[Chulanowa]

101. Where I come from, willful ignorance is identical to stupidity

You have a nice day.

[griffi94]

103. lol

you have that same nice day.

[SidDithers]

140. +1...nt

Sid

[Number23]

182. Where I come from, it's worse

At least a stupid person can learn something.

[defendandprotect]

286. It ignores the "Cat Food Commission" set up by Obama ... and the "anti-abortion" horror . . .

by Obama --

Basically, the administration and the party are still moving to the right --

that has to change --

We need a new candidate in 2012 to oppose Obama --

[defendandprotect]

179. Can you remember a period of time when the Democrats were the minority . . .

when they stopped the GOP from moving any legislation at all?

That might get you rethinking what's actually going on --


Let me also assure you this is a very old alibi -- and I personally watched when

Sen. George Mitchell the Majority Leader turned the Democratic Majority Senate over

to Sen. Bob Dole, Minority leader.


The party didn't get moved this far to right because that was the will of the people --

it got moved to the right because corporations bought our elected officials and

candidates.

And that's still the problem we're trying to find our way out of right now --

America -- "It can't happen here!"

[Mimosa]

188. I remember well. Good point, defendandprotect, and Griffi too.

It's disingenuous and probably a desperate tactic to brand Griffi 'cynical' or an 'ObamaHater'. (Is that one word?)

People who are hanging on by their fingernails, not knowing what the future will bring for them, their families and this country, have every right to express sincere concern.

I'm sure that those who keep repeating and posting -endlessly- obvious talking points are more financially secure. And some of you seem to have little compassion for other DUers who are worried. You've resorted to name-calling and labels in order to disparage people who posts what you don't like.

Griffi didn't bash anybody. And is not cynical.

[defendandprotect]

275. There's going to be a lot more coming -- Obama is after Social Security + Medicare . . .

and this seems to be preparation for the outrage that is going to follow that !!

[JuniperLea]

115. Obama said it was going to get a lot worse before it got better...

And there has been meaningful change. No, it hasn't helped everyone... he never promised instant change.

Tapping your foot doesn't make the microwave heat your tea any quicker either.

[griffi94]

123. no it doesn't

and starving to death or losing everything isn't any easier under a democratic administration.
and the refrain that the repubs are worse is almost a cruel joke, because how can it be any worse.

obama claimed responsibility for the working poor when he got them to vote for him on his change the way washington does business message.
like i've already posted. banks got theirs health corps got theirs, both wars are fully funded, but the jobs bill cost too much and UI extensions have been denied, and now suddenly after the top tier has been paid from the public coffers, we have to do something about the deficit and a commission is put together with rw deficit hawks to figure out if SS can be somehow tweaked.

[JuniperLea]

127. Wow...

You claim to remember his campaign so well, yet go on to prove without question that you don't.

[griffi94]

154. ok

so he didn't say during his campaign that he would change the way washington did business.
i guess this is the same way he didn't campaign on having a public option in the healthcare reform bill.

[defendandprotect]

276. Notice ... whether Repug or Democrat . . . the MIC always gets paid first -- !!!

[leftstreet]

66. K&R

[OhioChick]

83. K&R n/t

[Spazito]

84. speaking of arguments that don't hold up...

"I'm pretty sure that most voters didn't understand that to mean living in a carboard box out behind Wal Mart, or watching SS get gutted. He promised no more lobbyists in positions to make policy and a strong Public Option. What I think a lot of people are feeling is "Change We Can Believe In" has turned into “Protect the status quo”".

You have provided an excellent example!

[ecmphd]

88. I think Obama has done a lot to help the middle class

It's hard to have hope in this economic climate. If the Republicans were in office now, there would be no way to know if it would be better or worse. I'm thinking worse only because of the last 8 years, and I'm not hearing any fresh ideas from the Republicans at all. They scream about cutting budgets but offer no cuts of their own, in part, because cutting won't be popular at all, look at Greece and France.

The economy won't turn around on a dime. It will get better slowly, and unfortunately Americans are not patient. Many thought the crisis should have been solved in Obama's first 100 days. A very naive perception given it took Reagan 3 years to bring the jobs back. Yet, when the economy did recover Reagan got a second term.

Should more help be out there yes. I wouldn't look for any until after the elections.

[griffi94]

90. i don't remember reagan ever bringing any jobs back

in fact i remember not being able to buy a fucking job during reagans 2 terms.

[bvar22]

98. K&R

:patriot:



"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

[librechik]

100. Obama has to rip that bone out of the mouth of the meanest junkyard dog in the world

no wonder he's getting bloodied.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

247. that's a great metaphor!

:thumbsup:

[Mimosa]

109. 'millions of working families don't have anymore time to be patient.'

Amen, Griffi94.

This economy is killing people, destroying their peace of mind and hopes. We have a right to be angry. And a right to demand real change.

[mcollins]

110. Fear and Stupidity. nt

[griffi94]

162. i'm not sure what you're saying

are you calling me scared and stupid, or are you admitting to being scared and stupid.

[JoePhilly]

111. Disagree ... starting here ...

" ... the fact is Americans rejected the GOP, if we don't get enough it will have the same effect as not getting anything."

And then ... "The citizens of this country watched as the failed policies of Trickle Down and Privatize cratered our economy. Jobs gone, money gone, houses gone. There simply isn't enough time left to work around the edges."

I would submit that you are assigning YOU view of the GOP on "the citizens of this country".

Hate to break the news, but they did not all reject the GOP for the reasons you list ... and in reality, they did not reject the GOP nearly as strong as you appear to think they did.

Obama did not win a Reagan sized landslide. Sure, he won in a decent margin, even somewhat of a landslide, but not a huge one from which you could claim "the citizens of this country."

In addition ... one of the reason you don;t list is that Obama ran on an intent to reach out to the other side ... many "citizens" voted for Obama because it was clear that Bush never reached out. They wanted MORE bipartisan effort, not less.

Now ... when you claim you want Obama to "throw a bone" to working people ... what do you mean, specifically ... I see LOTS of calls for Obama to "give me my bailout", etc ... but they usually do not indicate what they mean.

Does extending unemployment count? Aid to the states? What specifically is it?

[griffi94]

116. well

i do seem to remember there being a big election in 08 and obama winning on the message that meaningful change was on the way, but it's your position that he won on his promise to be bi-partisan.

i seem to also remember picking up seats in congrss on the message that we were about to change the way we did business in washington. no more bowing to special interests, hcr with a strong public option.
we're 2 years farther along. special interests still get their turn first. banks, health corps.
unemployment is over 9%, the unemployment bennies aren't being extended and as of yet the jobs bill has yet to materialize.
yeah an UI extension would help so would aid to the states, but now that the banks are safe and the wars are funded we've got to do something about the deficit.

[JoePhilly]

124. Try this ...

There are no Red States, or Blue States ... there are just the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Who said that??? It began there.

And that was a KEY aspect of the CHANGE Obama ran on.

Now ... you complain on a number of points ....

"special interests, public option, unemployment ..."

The bank bailouts occurred under BUSH not Obama ...

Unemployment was at 8.4% in Feb 2009, prior to Obama getting the stimulus passed ... it hit ~10% ... and now is 9.5% ... seems Obama STOPPED the collapse. You should look at the job lose numbers too ... here is a link ....

http://www.ny.frb.org/research/directors_charts/ibcd_09.pdf

Focus on the graph in the upper right ... find MARCH of 2009 and tell me if the trend line changes direction around then (that's when the stimulus passed). A graph of GDP, and of the stock market looks very, very similar.

And then ... you can not actually BLAME Obama for the CURRENT block by the GOP on unemployment extensions, can you??? Obama and the Dems have extended it a few times already ... you know that, right??? Do you know WHY it has not passed now ?? ... because Senator Byrd DIED ... and the GOP BLOCKS it ....GEEEEEEEZE!!!! But you blame Obama ... wow.

Public Option ... yes ... Obama failed in getting the PO ... but he did get exchanges that would be required to MATCH the model that federal employees get ... and it includes subsides and exemptions for the poor, and millions for community health centers, and no copays for preventative care, no pre-existing conditions for kids starting now (which means my 12 year old niece who survived cancer at 2 now gets full coverage as a 12 year old). But Obama hates us.

But hey ... you gave Obama 2 years ... except it has NOT been 2 years. How objective of you.

[tbyg52]

118. I don't expect the president to turn repug policies on a dime

but I do expect him to turn in the right direction, however incrementally. The corporations are still in control, as far as I can make out.

[Abq_Sarah]

125. So ...

Do the corporations have a gun to his head? Have they kidnapped his wife and daughters?

Corporations only have power in Washington if the President AND the Congress give them power. That's the bottom line.

[tbyg52]

139. My point exactly. Although they do have a "gun" to the head of "our" reps - it's called "money." nt

[anaxarchos]

126. You are drowning in the middle of a lake...

On one side are people yelling at you that if don't know how to swim, it is all your fault. "What a stupid man, to have gone to the middle of a lake without knowing how to swim. We are better off without him."

On the shore, there is a boat but none of the people yelling at you make a move toward the boat.

"Why should we get our clothes wet or dirty for a stupid man?"

On the other side of the lake is another group of people. They are crying and wringing their hands over your distress. "Oh that poor, poor man...", they say. One is yelling out instructions to you, trying to teach you how to swim. Another keeps trying to throw a rope, but it keeps falling into the water within a few feet. A third is screaming across the lake, "What is wrong with you people? How can you be so insensitive? Can't you empathize with that poor, poor man?"

Meanwhile, on shore, there is a committee meeting: "Perhaps we could drain the lake?", "How about throwing in sticks to build a causeway, just like beavers?", "No, we won't get there in time... let us consider other solutions."

On this shore, there is also a boat. Unlike the other side, a single voice suggests that perhaps they could row the boat to the middle of the lake and save you. The others turn on him.

"Are you crazy?", asks one, "that boat is private property and we have no right."

"If we did that this time, where would it all end?", cries another.

"Besides, that boat looks very simple but it could be complicated. What do we know about running boats?", screams a third.

"Be quiet about the boat and help us to commiserate with that poor, poor, man."

Now, here comes the riddle: In the elections coming up in a few months, which side of the lake do you vote for?

It is a trick question.

Everyone knows that drowned people don't vote.

[maryf]

144. brilliant...

but, but, can't we have a third group??? ;)

[anaxarchos]

147. There is only one person on the third side...

"You are so inconsiderate. Don't you dare drown and pollute the lake. Don't you care about the fishes? Get out of that lake this instant or I wash my hands of you."

[maryf]

211. lol

perfect!

[EmeraldCityGrl]

146. Publish that. Outstanding!

[maryf]

143. the Presidents supporters that say we need to be patient

never saw, read, or understood Beckett's Waiting for Godot...

k&r

[EmeraldCityGrl]

145. We are being led to believe our expectations are too high and our demands

unreasonable. Often quotes are offered pertaining to what Obama admittedly factually stated
during the campaign. An example would be that he never said he was going to bring the troops home from
Afghanistan. But, the big lie is the suggestions and cleverly disguised promises that were made. We never
believed Obama would escalate the occupation and war spending. The Lie is reflected in the people he has
chosen to surround himself with. The Lie is in the compromises against our best interests regarding Healthcare,
regulating the financial industry, and soon SS and Medicare. The Mortgage Relief Plan was a Lie. Of the 1.1
million Americans that applied, 170,000 were helped. The banks simply stated it was not to their advantage
to rescue American's losing their homes, although we bailed them out.

Sorry this has turned out to be a rant, but I'm just so disappointed in the lost opportunity of the last couple years.

[griffi94]

149. well said

and i'm sure the banks will be giving a portion of the bailout money back any day now.
just like i'm sure that under the rules hcr will not price people out of actual healthcare even tho they'll be regulating themselves, i mean after all there's a wellpoint exec implementing it.
and i'm equally sure that the cat food commission wouldn't dream of touching SS or medicare.

[BzaDem]

190. Obama CAMPAIGNED on escalating the war in Afghanistan. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean

he didn't say it.

Your expectations are too high and your demands are unreasonable. There I said it. He is doing exactly what he promised on foreign policy, and he actually has very little power on the legislative front.

[maryf]

214. rant on sister...

don't stop ranting...

[tbyg52]

235. >>The Lie is reflected in the people he has chosen to surround himself with.

Ain't that the truth. And it started *immediately* after the election.

[ismnotwasm]

150. From what I understand

The country is swinging 'right'. So called 'Blue' states might well lose a few senators.


It's looking like we'll probably end up with a overabundance of republicans again. Your average American has NOT rejected the GOP, politically they're rather apathetic and drift with the tide (DU is a passionate place, no matter if we agree or disagree at least many of us acually give a shit) and they will blame the current administration along with the prevailing political party for all woes.

Progressives will again vote third party, Conservatives will act as they always have, psychotic and selfish. It's not that Americans 'won't get anything' it's more they won't like what they get and won't understand it until they do get it. My guess is a combination of Republican/Objectivism/Libertarian politics that will fuck us to a fair thee well.

[griffi94]

156. and you may be correct

but the dems had the opportunity to turn it around. it's going to be difficult to blame voters for abandoning the democrats when a lot of them feel as if the democrats were the first to leave.

obama swung the indies, who we're told lean slightly right, having gone for gwb twice. they voted for obama because they saw the gop was bankrupt of any new ideas.
however obama and the congressional dems haven't, in the main, taken any of the bold steps they talked about during the 08 campaign, instead it's been more watered down half measures. so if the repubs failed and the democrats seemed to be failing the middle class,why would it matter which way they vote.

jmho but the american voters rejected the gop when they elected obama and gave him both chambers of congress. i think they expected something different than what they've seen so far.

hell virginia went for obama. as did north carolina. so it seems some of the red state voters did in fact reject the gop.

[johnaries]

166. Well, I'm sorry, but I've been hearing a recurring theme, too.

And it seems to me that although I believe that we should be willing to criticize when criticism is due - we should also be able to give praise when praise is due.

This Presidency is due much criticism. although much of the criticism I have seen was based on a misconception of the individual leveling the criticism. Regardless, this administration is due criticism. But it is also due much praise.

On balance, the praise outweighs the criticism.

Now, I know there are a lot of people here who don't want to acknowledge that. There are many people here who only want to spread discontent and I believe some who are actively trying to recruit people to vote for "more progressive" 3rd parties that have no hope of winning and only help the Republicans win.

But you always have to look at the BALANCE. No, Obama doesn't have a "magic wand", and neither does Ralph Nader.

But Obama has actually gotten stuff done. Maybe not everything we wanted, but he got stuff done. I'm sorry you didn't ge everything you wanted for Christmas, but this is not a movie.

[griffi94]

167. yeah that's a good thing to tell the unemployed

and the folks who are being foreclosed on, or going hungry.
Hey I'm Sorry You Didn't Get What You Wanted for Christamas, But This Is not A Movie.

except you should say...i'm sorry you didn't get what you thought you were voting for. but we own this house now, so get out, and we can't do anything about unemployment benefits there's a deficit.

i'm mostly grateful that no CEOs have had to endure any hardships, and i'm glad, to quote rham "The private delivery system of healthcare has been preserved"
i'm glad that both wars are fully funded except OMG there's a deficit, so let's appoint a few RW deficit hawks to a commission and see if they can trim SS and medicare.
oh and btw the HCR thing, let's put an executive from wellpoint in charge of it, i mean after all, she is the one who wrote the bill. besides "I never campaigned on a public option"

[stevenleser]

185. Cynically using the unemployed as a political tool in your argument, are we?

I love how the Obama haters bring up the unemployed all the time. I got news for you, it always hurts to be unemployed, even when the rate is low. Bringing it up like you have here is poor logic and I am being generous. Whether you praise or attack the President makes no difference to the unemployed.

I would argue that what you are doing is worse, because you are cynically using the unemployed as a tool in your argument.

[bvar22]

250. Casually discarding the plight of the Unemployed as a political tool, are we?

Fact is, Wall Street got their Trillions in less than a week.
The Millions of Working Class Unemployed.....well, they can just wait.

[stevenleser]

268. Sorry, "Ignored" I cannot read your response

[inna]

180. K&R

One thing that *killed* me was the fact that Obama went out of his way to appoint The Deficit (aka Catfood) Commission.
Hell, even *the Senate* voted against the creation of the Commission, because it was too politically risky to touch the popular and beloved social programs.

That didn't stop Obama, however - he went ahead and created the Commission by his Executive Order (after the Senate voted against the Commission), and appointed the most notorious Social Security/"entitlement" looters/privatizers to be in charge. He wanted that damn Commission so much that he even PAYED for its budget with "money the White House reserves for unanticipated expenses". :shrug:

I wish he was just as persistent about and interested in JOBS, and helping the working people. We could certainly use an Executive Order for that. Stimulus is simply not doing enough, stronger measures are required. "Jobless recovery" simply won't do; long-term unemployment is a structural problem and needs to be addressed.


ETA: jobs is not the only issue Obama is underperforming on; I just used it as an example.

He could certainly be more passionate about extending unemployment benefits, fighting foreclosures, providing affordable housing etc. - any policies that would benefit the working people (vs. corporations). He just doesn't seem to be as engaged in pro-labor issues as he is in pro-corporate stuff.

[bobburgster]

184. And how do you propose he do that?

Oh, maybe he can propose all these bills that will look and sound great, but won't stand a chance in hell of getting out of Congress.

[BzaDem]

189. Why do you think "not getting anything" is the worst that could happen?

Let's assume for a minute that Obama is indeed "not delivering anything" or "not delivering a lot" (even though this is blatantly false on its face). How could you possibly think that it couldn't get MUCH, MUCH worse than that?

Would another trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthy help you, funded by a tax increase on the poor and middle class? What about voucherizing Medicare? How about actually privatizing Social Security? All of these are part of Paul Ryan's plan, which is going to be the policy blueprint for the Republicans going forward.

The truth is, if you think "getting nothing" is even CLOSE to what you will get should Republicans would take power, you are INCREDIBLY naive. If Republicans take power, they will inflict so much political pain on you that you will eventually repudiate everything you have written here. Bank on it. Why not just skip fighting the wrong side and just pretend you did?

Furthermore, you say "they don't have anymore time to be patient." But you are assuming that just because you want something, it is actually possible to get it. This is a flawed assumption. Just become someone "doesn't have time to be patient" doesn't mean it is possible to get what they want. Their want is essentially logically independent of what is actually possible. They could really want it and it might still not be possible. Usually people learn the difference between what they want and what is possible when they are 5.

If you were to make a persuasive case that Obama did not achieve enough RELATIVE to his actual power (without BS like "he is the leader of the party blah blah blah"), you might have a point. But you don't. You are blaming him for not achieving x or y REGARDLESS of his ability or inability to achieve x or y.

[pattmarty]

193. Agree. Not that your post will put a stop to all the conservatives............

.......on this board trash talking "liberals" with names like "purists" and "leftbaggers". Jesusfuckingchrist, at least they SHOULD be smart enough to be a little more creative and original instead of whining cry babies.

[MissDeeds]

195. Well said

K&R

[greiner3]

202. While I recommend this post;

I did it because it brings out the debate in this forum. I do not agree with the statements;

"if we don't get enough it will have the same effect as not getting anything."

"“Protect the status quo”

You and many others blame Obama. I do too but not nearly to the extent that this post implies. It is Congress' fault and duty to pass legislature this post is complaining about and saying the OP and MSA needs. If passed, Obama will sign the bills and make the events large political events out of. I agree there are things Obama could be doing along these lines but as head of the Executive Branch he is limited.

I also say that his main thrust is rather moderate or even closer to Centrist. But I believe he is leftist in his thought and deeds when it comes to 'common folk.'

Just saying.

[theFrankFactor]

204. If Republicans had the same tactical advantages we had THEY WOULD HAVE EVERYTHING THEY WANT!

The Democratic party machine is designed for failure. Blue Dogs and paid crony's guarantee little gets done for "citizens" and more for corporations. I get sick reading these wimpy ass apologists for weak and pathetic Democratic action. I can guarantee this; if there were any more like you in the Democratic party it would officially cease to exist.

[griffi94]

220. a few would argue

that the republicans are getting almost everything they want right now, and so don't need anymore tactical advantage.

[Yuugal]

226. +1

[Kahuna]

271. That's because they are thugs who will break the law and the constitution

to get their way.

[on point]

217. OK, Obama is not FDR, but at least grow a spine!!

[laughingliberal]

234. He has a spine. He's used it to 'beat back' proposals from the left. He said so on Fox news. nt

[EstimatedProphet]

233. I disagree

if we don't get enough it will have the same effect as not getting anything.

What we got (among other things):
HCR - not great, but better than not getting anything at all
Student loan reform - it's a start, which wasn't even being discussed before
Wall Street reform - again, a start

What we would get under McCain
HCR - forget it
Student loans - HAHAHAHAHA!
Wal Street - Lots more money for Wall Street paid for by us, with less than no strings attached.
Plus, doubling down on corporate slavery and we would have invaded Iran by now.

Obama hasn't reversed enough of the trends for my tastes yet. I never expected him to, either. It's going to be years and years to get us back on track.

[femrap]

237. Dudes get bones....

women and children get crumbs.

That's how I feel and I dare anyone to prove me wrong. 77 fucking cents on the dollar. Higher insurance premiums because we enable the continuation of the species. Rape kits sitting on shelves for years.

Why doesn't Israel just get it over with it and start WW3 so we can be done with this pathetic patriarchy. The system is rotten to the core.

Hell we can't even grow our own food anymore:

http://www.grist.org/article/food-five-tips-for-surviving-a-raid-on-your-farm-or-food-club/P1

I'm hoping the Mayans and Hopis are right.

[unlegendary]

243. Who can you really blame?

YOU voted for all this knowing really very little about Obama and kept sending back the same dips to congress..
BUT the alternative will be far worse and we ALL know it so what do we do? NOT vote and let some real pile of manure into the WH? I know..let's let Palin name the cabinet.. Yes, that will be MUCH better, huh?
Te truth of the matter is Obama doesn't do nearly as much as I would like, but he's gotten a lot more done than I ever really expected.
Would have have liked him to turn all minds around to our way of thinking? Sure, but that's simply not going to happen, but a huge problem is the damned blue dogs we keep sending back to Washington saying, "Well, at least they're Democrats..." If anyone has been paying attention THOSE dirt balls have forced Obama's hand into the right wings jaws time and time again and we keep sending them back.

[femrap]

248. I held my nose

and voted for him. I knew he was not what he appeared. But then, we're no longer a democracy either. We're some screwed-up type of fascism.

I can blame you and the patriarchy you uphold. If you don't see that women's rights are human rights, you don't belong here.

I don't vote for Blue Dogs. I don't apologize for the prez.

You're new here. You're not welcome.

Thankfully, I have that lovely Ignore Button. buh bye.

[varelse]

241. I cannot recommend this enough

but at least I rec'd it once :)

[Dawgs]

242. Sadly, we would see the same thing from any other Democrat, including Kucinich, Dean, etc..

You don't know much about politics if you think being President is as easy as you make it sound.

[harun]

244. End the wars.

[guitar man]

245. Amen

I really like the guy and am pulling for him to do well but I wish he would put a lot more bully in his bully pulpit where the common working people are concerned. So many of us either losing our jobs or working ourselves to death for substandard pay and benefits. For those of us who have been struggling for years, you're right, it can't happen fast enough.

K&R

[Lorien]

252. K & R for the truth. nt

[Soylent Brice]

262. very well stated.

thanks sharing your thoughts, griffi94.

[Orsino]

264. Americans did *not* reject the GOP.

American voters as a whole vacillate between favoring one party or the other, and are pawns in the old game of tug-of-war.

Far from rejecting either party, we are in fact addicted to both--and we tend to want a goddamned Republican in the White House.

[Kahuna]

267. All praise the mighty and powerful Obama. For he is omnipotent,

and sees all. Dear, President Obama, please turn my one little fishy and one little loaf of bread into enough to feed the OP and the multitudes. Amen.

[AtomicKitten]

294. Amen.

[AngryOldDem]

272. Exactly right.

If the elite expect to maintain any kind of social order, then they must at least throw a semi-chewed bone to the middle class.

[Sheepshank]

292. you are about as uprepared for reality as you claim everyone else is

A theme, snippets from the drivvel
"There simply isn't enough time left to work around the edges.

I read the comments from the Presidents supporters that say we need to be patient, the president is doing some good things, we can't expect to suddenly have all our pet issues addressed.
While that may sound reasonable, the sad truth is that for millions of working families, they don't have anymore time to be patient.
President Obama can't expect the families that are losing everything, to hang on while Democrats try to bail out the Titanic with a teacup.

President Obama promised “Change We Can Believe In”

I don't expect the president to turn the economy on a dime, but he does need to throw a little bigger bone to working people or at the very least a bone that has some meat on it.

I'm resigned to the proposition that I'll never count as much as the monied elite and I can live with that, but I still need shelter, food, and clothing and at least some money."

So, you want that politics in the US should become a dictatorship right now today in the next hour, to fulfill this immediate need that you assume is being ignored by Obama? How do you supposed the IMMEDIATE bone is going to get thrown out to the public? Please lay out a plan that can work within the next hour...ok lets give you some time, the next week. Go ahead lay out a plan that falls within democracy rather than dictatorship.

[SmileyRose]

293. too late to recommend - kick