Why don't wind generators have guards to keep wildlife out of those big blades?

[texastoast]

I'm assuming there is no regulation to do a common-sense thing.

[The Straight Story]

1. Would slow them down (nt)

[AnArmyVeteran]

44. Why not put pictures of Cheney on them to scare birds away?

Oh yeah, he can't shoot birds, but he's great at shooting human faces.

[stevedeshazer]

51. Why don't oil companies have guards to keep wildlife out of those big oil gushers?

Just sayin'.

[texastoast]

62. LOL

I grew up in the oilfield. Across the street from my house was an open sludge pit right next to the unfenced lot where all the kids played. It was filled with stinking green Vaseline stuff. Any one of us kids could have fallen in.

I grew up and went to work for an oil company in my hometown and saw the checks the company had to pay to surface owners for damages to their land. The guys who monitored all the wells and damages BITCHED when it became a requirement to fence all the sludge pits for safety. It wasn't to protect the wildlife, mind you. It was to protect the cattle. The ranchers raised hell when the cows fell into the sludge pits, but it took FIFTY years of unbridled drilling before this became a regulation.

[stevedeshazer]

73. Wow.

That's a great story, thanks.

I've raised cattle myself.

[yella_dawg]

81. Be glad nobody fell in.

Under that goo is a pool of trapped fluid that a horror straight out of Hollywood. I tried to rescue a goat that broke through the surface of a sludge pit. When I got it pulled out there was nothing but bones where the animal's legs broke through the surface. That was over forty years ago and I still get freaked out thinking about it.

[texastoast]

115. OMG

I had no idea that it would dissolve the flesh, but now that you say that, it makes sense. I remember my mom getting out the worst of dirt and grease with kerosene.

[Schema Thing]

2. that would not be "common sense" to a mechanical engineer or craftsman.

[tabasco]

6. "that would not be "common sense" to a mechanical engineer or craftsman

who was unconcerned with the environmental impact."

There! Fixed your post.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yella_dawg]

83. Glass houses and stones??

[apocalypsehow]

46. The number of folks who think you just wave a magic wand & *poof* the laws of physics will just

change themselves to whatever the lantern-rubber wants them to always astounds me. And notice that instead of engaging your post, you were immediately personally attacked? That's very telling.

[texastoast]

58. There are patents for such a contraption

It will be interesting to see how the technology develops.

I've seen other wind-driven turbine designs that wouldn't require a guard, such as the helix and some kites and some that have a design to use electromagnetism.

Windmills have been around a very long time. I won't be surprised if it is determined that there really can be a better mousetrap.

[apocalypsehow]

79. False. There are no patents for any such contraption. Link please, to the patent application for a

single design along those lines.

Since you can't, I'll recommend in advance that you regroup, and please try again.

Usually at this point, a personal attack is hurled when the lack of actual facts causes frustration with the poster. I expect that will be forthcoming soon.

[texastoast]

93. Pardon me

I work with intellectual property lawyers, and I checked to see if there was such a thing and was told I was too late (for at least the existing designs). Sorry to disappoint you about hurling whatever. No inclination.

[hedgehog]

102. The helix is pretty cool. Have you seen the vibratory generators?

It's basically a long belt that is suspended at both ends that "flutters" in the wind and somehow transfers that kinetic energy to the grid.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/solar-wind/4224763

[texastoast]

127. Awesome idea

Visionary thinker. What do you think on a big scale basis? How can it be put in place? What are the ramifications on a long-term basis?

Oh my. That was way cool. Taffeta. Scarlett would be proud.

[tabasco]

75. What amazes me is the number of people who say "it can't be done."

Tell me, oh wise one, what is the compelling scientific reason that, "it can't be done."

Please, you refer to the law of physics, so provide evidence based on science.

[apocalypsehow]

78. No one said "it can't be done." Your fetish for hurling personal attacks notwithstanding, it has

been patiently explained to you throughout this thread, that it could be done but at a cost and energy prohibitive level that would more or less obviate the entire rationale behind employing wind power in the first place.

"so provide evidence"

This is a typical diversionary tactic of the professional flame-warrior, and will be disregarded as such. But I would be very interested in seeing your schematics/blueprints for a cheap, energy-efficient wind generator that included this fantasy-land bird shroud that you claim could so easily be installed on all existing windmills. How about it? :shrug:

[texastoast]

33. Hmm.

Not very creative then, are they?

Are you using the magic "can't be done" meme?

[Schema Thing]

40. they are extremely creative.

but they have to be creative utilizing real physics.

[tabasco]

3. Money.

The guards would add a lot of weight and require even bigger support structures.

They should start working on it though. These goddamn things massacre bats, which are one of the most beneficial animals to mankind.

[jwirr]

35. What light weight materials do we have that could be used as a screen

that would keep the animals out? Surely we have something.

[Igel]

59. I'm not sure that would solve the problem.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/25/wind-turbine-bats.html

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/study-finds-reduction-in-turbine-bat-kills/

Note that barotrauma is an important cause of battlefield deaths and wherever else there are explosions. It's usually not the shrapnel that gets you; it's the over- and underpressure of the blast shredding your lungs that does you in.

[mdmc]

4. That would add a couple of cents to the cost

[Ken Burch]

5. I'd heard that somebody was working on a paint that would keep the birds and bats away

don't know how far that got.

[texastoast]

Smells like cougar pee?

I don't know why that came to mind. Seems like I read something about cougar pee as a deterrent.

[Nihil]

76. Well, if they didn't like cougar pee, that would at least keep them far away ...

... from the rear of the turbine but it wouldn't do anything for the
birds upwind of it (i.e., on the dangerous side!) ...
:P

[drm604]

8. Maybe because they would collide with the guard instead.

So it might not achieve anything useful.

[brooklynite]

9. Why don't houses have barriers around to keep birds from flying into the windows?

You could make them see-through so the light gets in.

Oh, wait a minute...

[KansasVoter]

12. +1000, power lines kills millions of birds, so do glass buildings

[texastoast]

34. I'm all for justification

It is a fine thing. But when it is not legitimate because someone has a "can't do" attitude, it's not very pretty.

Granted, life and death walk hand in hand. And it seems like humans work very hard to be sure they are on the life side of that statement no matter what the cost, or even when it would cost them nothing to do otherwise.

[AnArmyVeteran]

42. If the birds can't see the windows, they should still see the other bird approaching them. :)

[EFerrari]

18. Do most birds fly at that height?

:shrug:

I've never had a bird fly into a window. And we're thinking about putting up a turbine here but have to look into this bird thing first.

[MajorChode]

23. I've seen birds thousands of feet above the ground

Even the tallest turbines are only a few hundred feet above the ground.

Some species of geese can fly almost as high as airliners. Geese fly in V formations because of wind resistance. The lead goose switches out and they rotate the responsibility of plowing through the air, just like a team of cyclists. Birds are amazing creatures.

[Johonny]

30. the answer is... yes some do

http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/How_Fast.html

[Synicus Maximus]

121. My Mama has birds fly into her windows every week or two. And she has

a one story house with a big plate glass window.

[Contrary1]

134. Maybe she would agree to try this:

http://www.windowalert.com/?gclid=CMr8q7iH8qICFQfxDAod9WvRhQ

[Lasher]

10. I thought the blades turn so slow that they won't hurt birds.

Maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Better Today]

11. I'm with you, I've never been able to imagine how those slow moving

blades would hurt a bird or bat.

[Statistical]

28. The bird or bat simply collides with them.

Speed isn't really relevant. Birds die when they collide into stationary towers and office buildings.

Still the turbines are moving very fast. Tip of the blade is moving at roughly 100 - 200 mph.
Similar to how a jet in the sky is "moving slowly" it simply is an optical illusion.

[GoCubsGo]

91. Bats don't die from hitting the blades

They die from the pressure change caused by the blades. It explodes their lungs. Hell of a way to die.

[NoNothing]

13. They only look slow because they are so massive

Imagine the actual distance the tips of the blades are covering in each rotation laid out on the ground in a line, and covering the same distance in the same amount of time, and you can get an idea of what kind of speed they travel at.

[Cirque du So-What]

14. F = mv/t

Heavy blades moving at high angular velocity do considerable damage to birdie bodies.

[pipi_k]

53. I used to think that too, but last week I got to see the newest

wind tower on a hill off in the distance. It was really cranking. There are places here (like my driveway) that have a pretty constant breeze.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

87. I wonder if they used older model turbines?

The newer ones have blades which are angled differently to slow down the turn speed. Which, due to some gearing magic, doesn't slow the energy produced! It was a safety feature added along with the closing off the back on the big turbines so birds can't get in.

[alfredo]

68. The blade tips travel at about 200 mph.

[backscatter712]

111. Old wind turbines had faster turning blades and killed birds. New turbines solve that problem.

New turbines are larger, turn more slowly, have better aerodynamics and better efficiency, and use a gearbox to turn the dynamo and generate useful power without having to spin the blades up so fast that birds can't dodge them.

[XemaSab]

133. Oh yeah?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9srPoOU6_Z4

[Touchdown]

15. If this happens so damn much, why aren't the blades drenched with blood and feathers?

Every time I drive by a wind farm, I see blades going too slow to suck birds into a vortex and certainly slow enough for them to avoid the blades.

[Ezlivin]

16. Domestic cats kill more than 100,000,000 birds every year

I suggest we start with them and then work back to wind generators which kill about 7,000 per year.

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

[GreenStormCloud]

39. That works out to one bird for every three people, per year.

I am not going to get excited over such a small number. 100 million sounds like a lot, until you consider just how big this country is.

[tabasco]

43. Both of your numbers are ridiculous.

You must be very gullible.

[Ezlivin]

45. Yes. Science is bunk

Who cares about years of careful observation?

Care to enlighten us as to the real numbers of bird deaths, their causes and your sources?

[tabasco]

106. What science?

Your link provides no cite to any scientist or scientific organization.

Like I said, gullible much?

[handmade34]

129. plenty of academic studies

domestic cats do kill millions of birds per year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A634655
http://www.njaudubon.org/Portals/10/CatsIndoors/PDF/Predation.pdf
http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm

[tabasco]

136. Thanks! Now tell me why that number should not be reduced.

Is your argument,

"We have a problem with cause A and cause B, so we shouldn't try to mitigate cause B because of cause A"?

or

"We have a blight, so why not blight some more?"

or

"There's no problem."?

Either way, you're wrong.

Birds that are killed by wind turbines in the Appalachians are migratory birds that have navigated the ridgelines for eons. Now the ridgelines are becoming covered with lethal, spinning blades. That's not a problem for you?

The turbines also kill bats, including endangered species, when they come into proximity of the turbines. Bats are one of the most beneficial species to mankind.

Here are some examples where a court ordered a wind developer to take measures to protect bats:

http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200912090471
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/09/AR2009120904106.html?hpid=sec-metro

http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html

[handmade34]

140. my post was

not an argument for or against wind generators... I just thought you were unfair to call people gullible who were correctly stating that domestic cats kill millions of birds each year.

If we are to be smart in determining our future energy sources we must take actual facts into consideration.

[tabasco]

145. You are quite correct.

I apologize for being a dick.

[flvegan]

52. Humans kill 9,000,000,000 chickens per year.

Just chickens. Just in the US. I suggest we start with them and then work back to domestic cats.

[Touchdown]

54. Well Silly! If we did that, then we wouldn't need the wind farms!

:crazy:

[flvegan]

57. LOL

:rofl:

[texastoast]

56. You bring up a problem that can get to extreme levels very quickly

We trap our ferals and get them spayed or neutered by the kind veterinarians here who donate their time and services. Cats can decimate bird populations, but they don't get many larger birds.

I had a neighbor who fed all the ferals. She started doing it with two. In less than two years, she had over 30 ferals coming to eat. We are still trapping descendants and sterilizing them.

[Politicalboi]

69. And I have an injured Quail from one of our cats

It happened tonight. The bird can still run, and it seems alright, except he has lost a lot of feathers thanks to the cat. I e-mailed the SPCA in hopes they can help me. I hope the poor thing is going to be ok. I have no idea how to treat it. I have it in a cat cage for now in the garage with the window open because of the heat. I love my cats, but I hate when they do this.

[Lorien]

72. Put bells on them. It works. nt

[caboose]

100. I tried that one time but they kept pecking me with those sharp little beaks.

!!

[texastoast]

124. ...

:spank:

[kurtzapril4]

125. Here's a hint

Keep them inside, where they belong.

[hedgehog]

105. How many birds will die due to global climate change if we don't

get off fossil fuels?

[JoePhilly]

138. My car killed a bird about a month ago ...

I didn't mean to kill it ... I was driving along, and the bird flew across the street right in front of me, it got hit with the roof-rack ...

It made me remember that when I was a kid a pigeon flew out from under an overpass and straight into the grill of my mother's station wagon.

[LostInAnomie]

17. Those wind generators are enormous.

The guards around those blades would have to be even bigger. Making the slots in the guards small enough that birds can't get through would render the generator useless.

[Politicalboi]

70. Well how about

Security guards. They can yell to the birds "Look Out!" LOL! It wouldn't take too many guards for that. But in all seriousness, don't birds hate reflected metal? All the grape vines here in Northern Ca have shiny ribbons blowing in the wind near the vines. Maybe they can do something like that, and for the night have sounds maybe.

[sailor65]

19. Can't be done

Unless you want to build 3-4 times the number of generators to get the same output, maybe more.

Guards and deflectors would disrupt incoming smooth air and cut efficiency fatally.

The better question is, how many birds are NOT killed by the effects of other power generation systems (Pullution, waste, exhaust heat) for each wind generator built? I would bet that in the end the birds get a net gain in safety.

[immoderate]

86. Yes! What's the effect on bird populations? And where are the bodies?

Nice to think about each creature, but animals in the wild all die of something less than pleasant.

Personally, I weep for every little birdie that is harmed. But I have to wonder what percentage of a species will be chopped up by wind generators. I mean, they can fly fuckin' anywhere they want! Why into a rotor blade? :shrug:

--imm

[TexasObserver]

20. Common sense dictates that no such screens be used.

Birds that don't have sense enough to avoid them will hit them.

If you can invent a guard that makes windmills more efficient, however, I'm sure the world will beat a path to your door.



Do you likewise worry about the bugs that hit your car windshield?

[texastoast]

32. Yes. Especially the butterflies.

Not so much the mosquitoes.
:hi:

[TexasObserver]

36. How about our annual bout with love bugs?

I don't know where they come from, but it's pretty obvious what they're doing. I still don't understand why they like to do it in the middle of the road at car level.

[texastoast]

37. Ewww they are so sticky

Some folks here call them hurricane bugs. They do seem to blow in when we have storms. Probably just a coincidence.

[plcdude]

21. check out

this. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/common_misconce.php

[gvstn]

25. From your link

"According to the 2001 National Wind Coordinating Committee study, “Avian Collisions with Wind Turbines: A Summary of Existing Studies and Comparisons to Other Sources of Avian Collision Mortality in the United States," these non-wind mortalities compare with 2.19 bird deaths per turbine per year. That's a long way from the sum mortality caused by the other sources."

3 deaths per turbine per year is a relatively small number. And when I went to an informational meeting about a wind farm in my area I think the number was even smaller. I'm fairly sure it is an overblown issue considering how much oil gets into the ground everyday all over the country doing damage to untold living things.

[OhioBlue]

22. The new turbines are much safer than older style

according to Green Energy Ohio:
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/page.cfm?pageId=116

The wind farm at Altamont Pass in CA did kill large numbers of birds. The blades were much smaller and turned much faster than turbines in today's commercial windfarms.

On the other hand, a comprehensive review of communication tower kill literature published between 1995 and March 2000, commissioned by the U.S. FWS (which includes a section on wind turbine collisions), revealed that less than 100 avian fatalities involving wind turbines in the U.S. have been reported in that time period (excepting the installation at Altamont Pass). The highly publicized bird kills at Altamont Pass in California are the only significant (large number) kills involving wind turbines reported at any installation to date. (2)

Currently, companies seeking appropriate places to locate commercial wind turbines take the existing bird populations and migratory routes into account before they permanently site a facility. Brian Kilkelley of Green Mountain Energy, reports no documented bird kills at the Garrett, PA facility since they went on-line in May 2000.



Please keep these documented facts in mind the next time you hear anyone proclaiming that wind turbines are dangerous to our bird populations. Wind turbines can and do generate clean electricity with a minimum negative effect on the environment, including our bird populations.

[texastoast]

64. Thanks for posting this

I love DU when it is productive.

:hug:

[backscatter712]

109. That's the story I keep remembering when I hear about wind turbine bird-kills.

You're absolutely right - early turbines had problems with bird-strikes, but the newer ones are designed so that it doesn't happen - the blades turn more slowly, and use a gearbox to drive the generator without having to have the blades spin at high speeds.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/common_misconce.php

[RC]

24. More bullshit started by the Luddites and coal & oil companies.

Most birds are smart enough to avoid the blades. It's humans that are stupid.
I have seen very few to no birds around any wind towers, so I don't know how this BS is ever substantiated.

I've seen birds fly into windows from both sides. Me, not the birds. I don't hear anyone saying we need to brick up the windows.

[texastoast]

61. I agree

Many more birds are killed in other ways, and the fossil fuel companies think that the birds the blades kill should make us all really guilty and skeered.

Driving a car, whether fossil-fueled or electric, won't stop humans from killing birds or butterflies on the windshield.

[GoCubsGo]

92. Nope.

I don't know about bird numbers, but wind turbines kill thousands of bats every year: http://www.fort.usgs.gov/BatsWindmills/

That's a fact, and not bullshit started by the coal and oil companies.

[spanone]

26. i saw a blade being hauled down the highway today..it was huge

[Statistical]

27. Then you would be complaining about the birds killed running into wind guards.

It isn't doesn't take a moving blade to kill a bird.

Ever seen a bird fly full speed into an office building - BLAM DEAD

[hedgehog]

107. True story: My husband was staying at a hotel on business

and noticed a cat sitting out on the patio terrace. A bird came flying in, hit the window and hit the ground. The cat snatched it and ran away. This happened every morning he was there.

[Oregone]

29. Fans generate wind. Turbines generate electricity from wind

"wind generators"

:)

Most fans do have those

[MajorChode]

31. The turbine hazzard to birds is an eco-myth that needs to be put down

Do turbines kill birds? Perhaps, but so do cars, electrical lines, domestic cats, airplanes, high rise buildings, and lots of other things.

While there might be some empirical data on older turbine designs or wind farms placed next to nesting or migration areas that suggest higher bird mortality rates, modern designs that have been sited with competent environmental impact studies are pretty benign. And when you consider the alternatives to wind power, the choice becomes a no brainer.

This is a West Texas wind farm I flew over on July 3rd.

[yella_dawg]

80. Hey! That's in my back yard.

They are absolutely amazing. I love to go out and watch them. The fluttering bird feathers are just like a confetti parade!

[MajorChode]

89. These particular ones are just northwest of Albany, TX

Probably about 8-10 miles out of town.

[yella_dawg]

143. The ones I'm talking about are east of Graham.

Same project, and for darned sure, the same terrain.

[MajorChode]

144. I've flown over those too

There's not as many there, but the terrain is similar. Out towards Abilene there are literally thousands of them. They start just east of town, wrap around to the south, and just west of town they are thick as flies on a turd. On the other side of Abilene the terrain does change dramatically.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. To keep the birds out, the slots in the guard would have to be tiny.

They would be so tiny that they would catch the wind themselves, over the entire area of their circle. Such wind force would knock the pole over onto the ground.

It is amazing that fore EVERY type of power generation, there is somebody that is opposed to it.

[texastoast]

55. Not opposed

Just thinking about how to make it livable for other species as well.

Humans are primitive, in ways that don't serve their long-term interests very well.

[Canuckistanian]

47. Why don't skyscrapers? Cars? Power transimssion towers? or cats?

Because each one of those things kill more birds annually than do wind turbines.

Birds aren't killed in great numbers because the things they run into are moving. It's just that they're immovable, vertical obstacles in front of their normally unobstructed flights.

Even WITH guards, the birds would die.

[apocalypsehow]

48. Because it would severely hamper the ability to generate electricity, for one thing; it would be

insanely cost-prohibitive for another.










( wait for it...wait for it...."you're just a corporate shill asshole who hates little birdies and wants to destroy the environment and pooh-pooh in the bird baths and blah-blah-blah...." )






( wait for it...wait for it...take two: "I'm an electrical engineer plus I have a degree in high energy physics plus I dreamed up how to build a wind turbine in my sleep and am scientifically a genius while UR dumb and illiterate and you should believe my posted credentials because I'm an anonymous moniker on the internets and said so and you don't know what you're talking about shut up about science they could save the little birdies if they really wanted to you asshole envirnoment-hater...blah, blah, blah..." )


There, that should get the first two kinds of replies to this post out of the way, in any event.


Edit: spelling.

[Nihil]

77. You forgot the third kind of reply ...

"Well done on presenting the correct answer in a simple, accurate
and non-inflammatory manner".

:toast:

[apocalypsehow]

85. Thank you very kindly! I appreciate it.

:toast:

[Juche]

49. Household cats kill thousands of times more bird than wind turbines

[EFerrari]

60. Not indoor cats. n/t

[slutticus]

113. What kind of an evil person would keep their kitty locked up all day?

:(

[Jamastiene]

131. Am I evil?

Yes, I fuckin' am...I guess.

I keep my cats right inside with me. They don't get ripped up by packs of dogs, hit by cars, covered in fleas and ticks, overheated in 95+ temperatures, freeze to death in freezing asshole cold temperatures, possibly abused by some asshole nor do they kill any birds.

And a funny thing happened to both the cats and I on our way to evilness...we found this arrangement works for us. My cats do not WANT to go outside. I can leave the door wide open and they'll move AWAY from it. Shit, they don't want to go out THERE and deal with all that stupidity and misery. They'd rather be inside curled up somewhere comfy taking a nap without a care in the world.

Yes, I am so :evilgrin:

[ThomThom]

50. I don't think it is really a problem since they don't spin that fast

and birds can see to avoid.

[11 Bravo]

110. The "tip speed" of a wind turbine is approximately 200 mph.

They move much faster than they appear to from a distance.

[ThomThom]

112. wow

but still I think bird kill is not that huge
I won't tell the story of how my cat got a blue jay about the same size as him. It had been swooping down and pecking his head for days.

[edgrosvenor]

63. They don't kill very many birds

I have a second home in central IL where I spend a couple days a week (divorced... joint custody... long, ugly story). When there, I often walk a route that takes me pretty much directly under a bunch of these things. I don't see bird carcasses laying all around. And once they're up, there's pretty much nobody around working on them, so it's not like the companies are going around at night scooping up dead birds to hide the truth from the rest of the world. The truth is that they're really not a significant danger to birds. I suspect the noise they make (not insignificant, by the way), is sufficient to keep most birds safely away from them.

The only objection to them that I can see that has any real merit is the noise. Living close to them is like trying to sleep with someone running a vacuum cleaner outside the window all night. Nothing compared to the fireworks, gunshots, and helicopters at my beautiful home in the great city of Chicago mind you. But it does sort of get to you after a while.

[hedgehog]

108. I've heard of other people with problems from low frequency

vibration. I suspect that as these problems come up, they will be addressed and corrected.

[A HERETIC I AM]

65. For the same reason no one is going to harvest the water on the moon and bring it back here.

It is pointless, there is no need and it is an engineering impossibility.

[smalll]

88. LOL -- one of the best threads ever!

Here it is for those who missed it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9124668

[jp11]

66. Everyone covered it except for mentioning that a guard would need to be cleaned of debris.

[texastoast]

67. That wouldn't be a bad job

Put on your rocket pack, hover up with the power washer . . .

[burrowowl]

71. Kicking or later viewing eom

[Poll_Blind]

74. Big Beavis Industry _wants_ those animals to fly into the blades.

PB

[ecmphd]

82. It's probably cost prohibitive

I didn't know this was a huge problem, and I may be very misinformed.

I know they blades are big and make quite a bit of noise, I'm surprised the birds go near them.

It would also probably cost more is the big reason, doesn't it always come down to the $.

[Throd]

84. The additional wind load on the supporting pylon structure would be tremendous

Not impossible, but highly impractical. The additional costs involved make this idea a non-starter.

I work in the pylon sign industry.

[mcollins]

90. you are joking, right?

The weight alone of the 'cage' would not only make the ability to turn into the wind fail, it would no doubt cause the whole thing to fall over.

[texastoast]

95. No, I'm not

I'm a big believer in human creativity to overcome obvious physical obstacles when a can-do attitude is in place.

But if you read the other posts in here, you will see that there is a lot of can't-do attitude. Probably the same attitudes people had when it was suggested that we fly to the moon.

[mcollins]

96. Astrophysics follows the standard laws of reality,

such as mass and gravity.

[texastoast]

114. Certainly

And the first time going to the moon was suggested, it was greeted with a big can't-do attitude. But creative people disproved that attitude, didn't they?

It surprises me to see how much people here on DU are willing to just give up and take the position that something as simple as a guard for a fan, granted, a great big fan, "can't" be done.

I doubt Einstein would have approved of the attitude, given his meme of "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

[JoePhilly]

94. I think that the solution to this is fairly easy ...

Years ago, there was an issue with Eagles and other birds getting electrocuted when they landed on the towers for electricity.

Scientists tried a number of fixes, and what they learned is that the birds tended to land on the HIGHEST point when they can.

So ... they simply built perches that extended higher than the top of the tower, well above the power lines. Which as I recall, ended the issue.

I'd think that the same could be done for wind turbines ... the mechanism for the blades would sit on top of the pole, and it would be able to spin freely to face the wind ... it core would be hollow so that a FIXED pole would extend straight up well above the spinning blades, to a perch where birds could land safely.

[texastoast]

123. DING! DING! DING!

You get the first "can-do" award!

That simple thing would probably cut the deaths in half.

Mmmmmm-wah!

:fistbump:

[Merchant Marine]

97. Because each blade on a 5Mw turbine is 65 meters long.

The untire unit weighs nearly 900 tons. A steel tubing framework as proposed would be prohibitively massive.

[texastoast]

122. Who said it had to be steel tubing?

What else could it be besides that? I KNOW our smart people here at DU can get those juices going and come up with something lightweight, low maintenance, and positively brilliant.

[Merchant Marine]

135. For large scale construction steel is the strongest and most cost effective material

I suppose you could use something else like aluminum or a composite, but the cost will be too much to justify the benefits. Also, the additional weight of the guard, which will have to rotate with the turbine, would put additional stress on the rotating joints and tower. They would need to be reinforced to support the guard, which would increase costs.

The best solution is to simply move the turbines offshore, where there are many fewer birds to worry about. A turbine 2-3 miles offshore would see almost no birds in its entire lifetime.

[boppers]

98. Why don't the oceans have guards to protect fish from drowning in them?

Doesn't anybody care about the fish?

[texastoast]

120. Where

is that sarcasm smiley?

Or should I say, "Um, whut?"

:P

[slackmaster]

99. That would make them look like something from War of the Worlds, or something

Surely it would decrease their efficiency, and add to maintenance costs.

[B Calm]

101. LOL . . . How many birds are killed everyday by vehicles? Hell I

killed two of them this week with my Freightliner, and that's just the ones I know for sure.

[texastoast]

116. That has been pointed out and discussed in the thread n/t

[catchnrelease]

103. Video of bird being hit

I remember seeing this video awhile back. I do support wind turbines, but for those who wonder how it can happen, here's an example.

And that is NOT an eagle of any kind. It's a Cape Griffin Vulture which comes from Africa, so this video is not from a US location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe85OaacwB8

[texastoast]

118. Oh, but only 7,000 a year

:sarcasm:

And if it *could* be prevented at a reasonable cost (gotta keep those capitalists happy, you see), it would be a good thing.

Development (creates jobs)
Manufacture (creates jobs)
Implementation (creates jobs)
Maintenance (creates jobs)

And with our projected population increase, we need those jobs.

[11 Bravo]

104. $$$$$ n/t

[JPZenger]

117. Worse for bats than birds

Wind farms are actually much more fatal to bats than birds. I'm told the ultrasonic sound has effects on the circulatory system of bats and confuses them.

[texastoast]

119. I hope that is addressed very soon

And so does the rest of America's population, though many don't know how much.

Bats and spiders. What a miserable place this will be without them.

[underpants]

126. Bird deaths per year -- OP please read this

Man-made structure/technology
Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats
Hundreds of millions

Power lines
130 million -- 174 million

Windows (residential and commercial)
100 million -- 1 billion

Pesticides
70 million

Automobiles
60 million -- 80 million

Lighted communication towers
40 million -- 50 million

Wind turbines
10,000 -- 40,000

http://science.howstuffworks.com/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm

[texastoast]

128. I know

Life. Death. Hand. Hand.

But check this out. THAT'S what I'm talking about.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8755287&mesg_id=8761960

Thinking out of the box.

[JPZenger]

142. Above comment is important to read

Yes, we need to keep it in perspective. I know someone who is doing extensive academic result, together with manufacturers, to develop glass products that do not result in large number of bird deaths.

[Nye Bevan]

130. Why don't we mandate that all cats must wear muzzles when outdoors

just in case they attack a bird?

What's the life expectancy of a bird, anyway? How many birds die peacefully of natural causes? And who really cares about increasing the life expectancy of a few birds by a year or two?

[upi402]

132. Muzzled cats

teehee

[Jamastiene]

148. If you are volunteering to muzzle the cats,

I'm selling tickets. That should provide a nice week or two of entertainment, maybe more if you herd them up first.

:popcorn:

:rofl:

[JCMach1]

137. Well, since we don't have enough predators any more...

:hide:

[Regret My New Name]

139. Is it that big of an issue? If it is, perhaps some sort of "sonic barriers" would work best, aye?

You know, something that emits some sort of unbearable noise that only birds (and other animals) could hear, thus making them avoid the area. Although, I suppose something like that would have its own issues, if even possible. How about just making sure the wind farms are not in any migratory flyways?

[donco6]

141. How much wildlife dies because of fossil fuel production and use?

Not that we shouldn't find a way to mitigate wildlife harm by turbines, but surely in the long run, won't this be better than smokestacks and acid rain?

[slampoet]

146. Because bird kills are a bullshit issue and don't happen often ever.

The bird kill issue is a "Not in my backyard" bargaining chip and not grounded in reality.

[lib2DaBone]

147. Have you seen the new Verticle Wind Turbines?

.. They ride on Mag Lev.. there is no metal touching metal in the main shaft....... they kind of look like a roll of paper towels stood on end with fins... they spin... quiet.. compact...