Apple fails showdown with Consumer Reports, plans statement Friday on iPhone 4

[Poll_Blind]

I admit to being a little surprised at just how much clout Consumer Reports still has- and it's a good kind of surprised. Especially in this day and age corporations can swing some very hefty balls around and a poor report on a product, even if true, usually finds a company on the attack against their reviewer.

That may still be the case, but Apple's stock dropped a bit yesterday on the Consumer Reports article and also on a leaked report that Ruben Caballero, a senior engineer and antenna expert, informed Apple’s management the device’s design may cause reception problems.

With news that Apple will be Apple is planning a press conference on Friday to discuss the iPhone 4, people are wondering: Will they go on the attack (and almost inevitably make things worse for them and their consumers) or will they take the opportunity to try to turn things around?

I think they should just give away those little iPhone holders they're selling for an outrageous $30 a pop and that could probably be enough, assuming that's really all it takes to substantially fix the reception issues.

PB

[hobbit709]

1. Duct tape works and is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Of course any idolt wouldn't want to be seen with a cheap fix.

[blogslut]

19. I think the silicone bracelet fix is teh awesome

link: http://lifehacker.com/5575999/use-a-cheap-bracelet-to-fix-your-iphone-4-signal-woes

Disclaimer: I don't own an iPhone and probably never will. If other people want them, that's fine by me. Gadgets are fun.

[Bloofer_Lady]

2. Maybe people will learn a lesson from all of this.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to keep up with the Joneses.

[mkultra]

55. iphone isnt about keeping up

its about having the most enjoyable phone. It really is a superior device from a user perspective.

[no limit]

3. You know what kicks ass about my EVO 4G? I can actually make calls with it!

[leeroysphitz]

8. At least until the battery dies. tick tock tick tock...

[no limit]

11. As long as I charge it when I'm sleeping the battery life is fine for me

I also have the option of charging it at work. So not that big of a deal for me but yeah, the one area iPhone wins in is battery life (or so Im told, havent experianced the new iPhone's battery life yet).

[leeroysphitz]

15. That's the only reason I didn't buy an Evo.

But I'm actually still mulling it over...

[no limit]

21. I absolutely love this phone, and there are extended batteries you can buy

I dont have a need for an extended battery yet but might invest in one once they get a bit cheaper.

[Hissyspit]

77. Richard Solo battery back-ups were on sale for $20 a couple of days ago.

http://www.richardsolo.com/

[Hissyspit]

31. The iPhone4 battery is definitely better.

I'm very pleased with it.

[frylock]

20. just buy a spare battery..

an option that's not available for the ifone.

[mkultra]

56. do you live in a city with 4g?

[Touchdown]

69. What good is that if nobody want's to talk you you?

:P

[obxhead]

4. I find it remarkable...

Toyota builds a faulty product and gets trashed for it. (I agree btw)

Apple builds a faulty product and they get defended and praised for what they did build.

Ok, I get the argument that the iPhone problem is not a life threatening acceleration problem. However, why would one company get trashed and the other supported rabidly here. I just don't quite get it. Why is there no public outcry for an Apple recall for building a faulty product?

I guess not all corporations are created equally, especially if one has really cool apps.

[Johonny]

5. People defended Toyota like crazy here

you ever read one of those car wars threads? There is no difference between an I-pod thread and a car wars thread on the DU that I have ever noticed. There are people that are willing to believe immediately any news about certain car companies, while ignoring or defending news about other car companies, the same as I-phone, Driod and the lot. Frankly it leads to a dull GD after awhile.

[obxhead]

18. I saw some of the Yota wars

There was a lot of defense for the company, but it seems like Apple is getting so much more of a pass.

That being said our news cycle is a little different than at the time of yotafest.

[mkultra]

59. interestingly, Toyota has been cleared recently

and the iphone still rocks.

[obxhead]

72. Toyota was cleared?

got a link on that?

[mkultra]

107. no, it was on NPR the other day

They indicated that the independent review found that the floor mat issue was real but in other cases of acceleration, the driver was at fault.

This pretty much meets up with my expectations as i figured that the minute people started hearing about problems, accidents would be blamed on them.

[Statistical]

9. Mr Toyota isn't a demigod like Mr. Jobs the amighty savior and head of the church of Apple.

[obxhead]

14. LOL

:rofl:

[Poll_Blind]

13. There are a couple of points which I think describe why there is that desparity.

First, having been a user of this forum before September 11th and for most of the time since, I have come up with what I think is an excellent disclaimer (at the bottom of this post) which, if read and genuinely understood, will prevent a lot of the confusion about things which occur here. And how much one cares about certain things that go on.

Second, I think the reason why Apple is getting a lot of defenders is simply this: Apple doesn't just sell a product to their consumers. Their product is sold as a sort of badge of enhanced intellectual capacity, creativity and stylishness. When Apple produces a substandard or flawed product it not only diminishes the acceptability of their brand as a badge for those things I mentioned above, it causes those who have purchased Apple products for that alleged accreditation to become very defensive because the value of their purchased intellectual or creative signet also diminishes.

And if that isn't bad enough, when someone calls out the simple marketing strategy which they've been taken in by (as I did above), it drives them absolutely Apache Apeshit Crazy ™

The Universal Democratic Underground Disclaimer:

Anyone can join Democratic Underground. They can claim anything. Democratic Underground gives no warranty that the people with which you interact on Democratic Underground are Democrats or even Progressives. They may be Republicans, other political agitators or merely the mentally-unstable, heavily intoxicated or deranged personalities whose behavior is best described as "shit-stirring assholes".

Furthermore, reading the first two sentences in the above paragraph, realize that their irrational, inflammatory or destructive behavior may appear to be supported by other individuals or even the bulk of respondents to a given post. However, always applying the above paragraph to certain phantasmagoric situations you may witness in given threads in our fora, you are best served by believing only those ideas that you agree with to be real and the rest highly suspect.

PB

[obxhead]

17. AAC

"Apache Apeshit Crazy ™"

Oh my :rofl:

I like both the observation and the disclaimer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. What you said about Apple

applies to any company, why you saw the car wars.

This is about brand... and when people buy a widget, they buy a lifestyle and a brand identification.

I use Apple products... that does not mean they are the best thing since sliced bread. But I have not bought the brand identity. My sis drives a Toyota... and I asked her to get it checked.

That said the PROPER response to the Apple I-Phone Malady is not with toyota... but with Vista... ah the OS wars, another set of brand identification taken to the extreme.

I just like to compare apples with apples, as it were.

[fishwax]

16. there were quite a few Toyota defenders -- and there have always been apple bashers

But I imagine that if the iPhone problems were resulting in multiple fatalities, some of a spectacular nature, than the balance would shift a bit.

[obxhead]

22. There's always been Toyota bashers too.

From long before Apple was even formed.

As for the fatalities I see that as a key difference as well. At the same time however it's very similar. Both companies denied the charge. Then began to move heaven and earth to avoid costs to the corporation leaving the problem with the consumer.

Kinda funny in a way. Toyota blamed a (most likely) computer problem on faulty hardware while Apple is claiming a software update will fix (we'll see) a hardware problem.

[Lance_Boyle]

67. Yeah, like NHTSA, those pesky bought-and-paid-for Toyota shills...

The Toyota thing has been shown to have been mass media-generated hysteria over DRIVER ERROR. The iPhone defects are real. It's a subtle difference, I know, but one DU would do well to recognize.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. You are still defending them even after the recall?

Which is admitting something IS wrong?

AMAZING!!!

[Lance_Boyle]

80. NHTSA - driver error to blame. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. tell me then why they are still doing the recall?

And got a linky there?

[jgraz]

24. Maybe because Apple's faceplant didn't kill anyone

Most people are just watching the Apple soap opera and laughing. It's basically rich people complaining about the toys they bought from other rich people. Toyota, OTOH, actually killed people. That's the difference.

[obxhead]

25. so

Death.

That's our only basis to be objective about a company and fault them for first building a faulty product, then doing everything they can to avoid costs on a recall.

If nobody died it's ok.

Nope, still don't get it. Seems there should be some additional criteria used for determining if a corporation is doing the right thing or not.

Who knows though. A few dropped 911 calls.... :hide:

[jgraz]

27. So... you totally missed my point.

It's the "it's funny until somebody loses an eye" syndrome. If Toyota cars were suddenly losing their paint jobs -- or something equally innocuous -- not many people would have cared about Toyota, either.

Lots of people are watching Apple and shaking their heads. But, while we're still pulling dead baby dolphins out of the Gulf, it's a little hard for some of us to get our "outrage" on about a fucking phone.

[obxhead]

29. I guess I didn't get your point

so clearly expressed in your op. I apologize, my bad.....

I addressed the issue about the news cycle being different up thread as well.

That doesn't change the fact that both companies are acting in the same manner. Different problems, especially with the life threating part, yes. Different news cycle, yes. However both companies are acting in the same exact manner. Avoiding costs to themselves and their image, while avoiding the truth of their problems and doing a proper recall.

Yes, dead baby dolphins certainly deserve a higher level of outrage than a fucking phone problem. However I can handle more than one issue at a time unlike our MSM and such. :hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

48. I personally do not accept the argument that a phone

often sold as a safety device, a thing used to summon help in an emergency, is all that different from the cars, if it hangs up if you touch it incorrectly. A dropped call can cost a life. Plain and simple.
Any phone that can not make a call is a danger to those who rely upon it in emergencies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Show me a person that buys a smart phone

as a safety device.

You could make that argument for me... mine is a simple will only make calls device, rarely used.

But most people who buy insert smart gadget here, do so as a status symbol and a lifestyle symbol. Making a 9.11 call is way down in their priority list, if at all.

And I have considered getting one of these since I use an IPOD touch as a hell of an organization tool... but I simply don't want to pay more for a data packet.

[obxhead]

51. I just heard on MSNBC, Limpballs supports Apple and has come

to their defense over the iPhone 4.

That clears the issue up for me right there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. He supports ANY corporation over the user

he also came to the defense of Toyota, BP, and Microsoft...

It is a toy for him to tell his audience just how EEEVVVVIIIIILLLL Lib'ruls are, and they want to like destroy Capitalism. This is more evidence of that.

[obxhead]

57. agreed

[Touchdown]

62. And Al Gore is on Apple's Board of Directors

You are just looking for any reason to justify a hatred you had long before Apple got into the phone business. At least be honest about it.

[obxhead]

74. Excuse me???

Hate Apple? Nope can't think of a single post where I have said that.

Hate Al Gore? Nope can't think of a single post where I have said that either.

Are you sure that was aimed at me? Only reasonable conclusion I can come to.

[Touchdown]

83. Again! Comparisons to Toyota are bullshit. Apple never killed anybody.

A press conference is happening Tomorrow. Not a congressional inquiry two years from now. Toyota/Apple? Not the same!

911 calls are not relevant. I work in Telecom, and know about 911's dedicated circuits that have priority over all other traffic. Your stupid and uninformed joke about "dropped 911" calls is needless scaremongering.

LOL at an obvious hater's cult accusation post is another sure sign you agree with him.

[obxhead]

85. Wow, you seriously need an app for that.....

I never knew an electronic device from a huge corporation needed so much hysterical defense. Especially when it's supposed to be the best thing since (insert tacky object here)

Enjoy your products. :hi:

[Touchdown]

94. Again, not defending iPhone.

But I am defending 911 service, my employer and the FCC from idiotic comments.

Nobody is hysterical, and that is questioning someone's sanity which is against DU rules ( and will get your legs broken in New Jersey). I am criticizing you and your arguments. You seem to have read that as "defending Apple" which means you have some reading comprehension challenges to overcome.

Enjoy mis-interpreting what I say and putting more words in my mouth.:hi:

[Touchdown]

64. You should know about phone networks and 911 circuits before you spout off bullshit.

Hint: Separate circuits. Dedicated lines. Priority switching.

Your argument is getting a big laugh at my workplace... AT&T. I'm sure Verizon is laughing at you too.

[Touchdown]

60. When technology is pushed, sometimes it's too soon.

One phone out of dozens of flawless products over more than a decade does not make a failing company... except in the eyes of someone like you waiting for more than a decade for Apple to trip.

So milk it. We got your number.

BTW: What did you do with the refund when M$ recalled Vista? Oh' that's right! They did "everything they can to avoid costs on a recall.":eyes:

[obxhead]

71. hmmm can't say as I've ever defended M$ or their products.

So,

Apple has dozens of flawless products. That gives them a pass on first, claiming they don't have a problem, then when it is proven they do dodging the proper fix of that problem.

Did you defend Toyota as well? Certainly with their history of 40 years they built lots of good lasting products as well.

[Touchdown]

73. I'm not giving them a pass on anything.

But it is not the first product out there that came out of the gate too soon, and has problems. Let's find out what they say tomorrow before you fly off the handle about "dodging the proper fix". This is less than a month. It took Toyota 2 full years before they were forced to admit anything.

I've never liked Toyotas. Always Fugly. Only the 1983 Supra, and the '86 Celica GTS coupe were worth looking at. All other cars were butt ugly. Like Apple, I do not defend them for the accelerator problems. There's a difference in defending Apple, and recognizing that you are an obsessed hater.

[obxhead]

75. Hmmm,

once again, I can't think of a single post I have ever made on any site claiming to make me "an obsessed hater."

I simply posed a question. Made some arguments that they have handled failures of products in a similar ways.

Might want to go fire up that Apple product and look for an app for that. ;)

[Touchdown]

78. I saw no questions you posed. You made rhetorical announcements in the form of questions.

And.. I'm posting on an Apple product... which is working fine, in a Google app, which is also working fine.

[obxhead]

82. ok

I'm glad you are enjoying your product. :)

[tridim]

28. It's because Apple is a cult.

Always has been.

I've never seen anyone with Toyota tatoos, but I've seen lots of people with Apple tats. Blows my non-corporatist mind every time.

[obxhead]

30. You have got to be kidding!

Apple tattoos? Please say it's not so. :rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Obligatory OS War

&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fobviousmag.org%2Fen%2Farchives%2F2010%2F01%2Ftechnological_tattoos_fashion_or_whim.html&size=66k&name=ZZ2F7BFB1E+jpg&p=apple+tattoos&oid=8758402e7aa83d04&fr2=&no=11&tt=1760&sigr=12k63uprm&sigi=11o6clvi8&sigb=12nroftim

[Touchdown]

97. I would believe you if you mentioned MS too, but I don't.

[Hissyspit]

34. I'm defending Apple because...

my phone works great! I can't find anything wrong with it! It's much more powerful and I'm happy I upgraded. Maybe I'll run into problems later on, but nothing so far.

[obxhead]

36. If you found the problem would your opinion sway to

offense at Apple if they continued to deny the real cause of your problem and then refused to recall it for repair?

I'm simply curious.

[Hissyspit]

65. Well, first, I need to find the problem.

Then, I would argue for a more reasonable perspective. The company offered yet another highly innovative product that took a risk and ended up with possibly an unforeseen flaw. Should they have tested it better? Maybe. Should they have seen it coming? Possibly.

They have offered a refund. I'm not going to get a refund because there apparently nothing wrong with my phone. In fact it is a CLEAR improvement over my last phone which was a clear improvement over the previous phone.

Is Apple a corporation? Yes. Are corporations self-serving and destructive? To a great extent. Is Apple open to criticism. Absolutely. Have they shown some bad tendencies due to their success lately? Yes. Is there hysterical Apple backlash all the time? Yes. Does Apple do more "evil" than other cell phone manufacturers? Debatable and not that I'm aware.

If there is a real problem, they'll fix it next year.

[obxhead]

89. A valid response from a user without getting hysterical about it.

Thanks.

:hi:

[leeroysphitz]

6. I still don't understand how this problem was discovered at all.

Since you can't get reception with AT&T in the first place.

[Statistical]

10. Ouch! Good burn.

You should send that to Letterman or Leno. Good little zinger.

[obxhead]

23. DUzy!

[Hissyspit]

35. Wow, an actual valid point.

I will say, though, that my crappy AT&T reception has greatly improved with my new iPhone 4.

[Ignis]

37. Zing!

This would be even funnier if it weren't so true, says this AT&T customer.

[bullwinkle428]

79. WORD. (iPhone 3G user here!)

[fishwax]

99. lol n/t

[rocktivity]

7. Just in time for the weekend news dump, eh?

Not encouraging...

:evilgrin:
rocktivity

[walldude]

12. When the IP4 problem was "discovered"

(how that could have missed that one is beyond me) I certainly expected more from Jobs that a hissy fit crying "they are all holding it wrong" and a fix that cost users another 25 bucks.

Maybe he needs to visit one of those "Genius Bars" of his to learn how to admit to a mistake and fix it.

[LoZoccolo]

92. Genius bar, lol.

:thumbsup:

[Touchdown]

26. I was actually going to upgrade to one.

I have an old (relatively) iPhone 3g, but decided in the end to wait until Christmas for this.

Good thing I did.

[Hissyspit]

33. I have no problems with calls. I'm wondering what this is all about.

I am exceedingly pleased with mine and have had no problems with dropped calls.
The battery is definitely better, the phone is clearly more powerful, and the resolution is fantastic.
I do not live in a large urban area and haven't tested it out there, I will admit, and the first thing I thought when I saw the "all-around" antenna design was "won't it cause interference?" But I haven't had any trouble that I recognized as such, and am very happy I upgraded.

[Touchdown]

76. I guess it works fine if you have a protector around it.

or duct tape.

Consumer Reports refuses to recommend purchase unless Apple offers a free protector that will fix the problem.. yet despite they're not recommending it, they still say it is by far the best smart phone on the market.

[Hissyspit]

88. I think it would be a very good move on Apple's part to offer the bumper for free.

[Major Hogwash]

104. It works great with the bumper. But, people just want to whine for a living nowadays.

They're addicted to whining.
After 8 years of George Whiner Bush, that is all they learned how to do.
Oh, and watch American Idol.
And then whine about it.

We have become a nation of whiners.

[KansasVoter]

32. Apple knows people with automatically buy their stuff, no questions asked. They have....

no reason to worry about small issues. Most people tend to wait and see, not Apple customers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Nice broad brush there

...

Oy...

[tridim]

41. The proof is televised on the MSM every time Apple launches a new product

It is a big problem for Apple, especially now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And sony launches a new gaming rig

and Microsoft launches a new 360...

I could go on with the toy culture.

By the way I know can compare both MS and Apple in the wild as it were. We got both a MAC store and a Microsoft store in the same mall. The similarities are far from coincidental.

And a few people are envious as to how well Apple does it's marketing. Here is a clue... their PC\APPLE campaign are used in marketing classes, there is a reason for that.

[tridim]

46. Are marketing classes really teaching the Jobs' RDF now?

If so that is extremely scary and sad for our future. :scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Why? It was one of the most succesful add campaigs ever

And why do you think Toyota and oh Hyunday are running similar "lifestyle" based adds?

Look you think it is a cult... well here is the rub... OUR MODERN CORPORATE ECONOMY, requires lifestyle creation for... insert product here... it is not apple... it is the system.

Oh and here is a shocker... Apple did not start this. Pepsi did, with the Pepsi Generation adds back in the day.

[Touchdown]

53. DUers also know you suffer from ADS.

Apple Derangement Syndrome. You are attracted to Apple threads like a blood hound.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Apple is behaving like any MODERN corporation

and has it's defenders, like ANY MODERN CORPORATION.

I KNOW part of the marketing plan for any MODERN corporation is a good base of consumers that will do the marketing for them. This is why Toyota is also running the same kind of fan adds they are running... or my all time favorite, Microsoft. I AM PC... now those adds are down right laughingly funny.

And what is funny is that what corporations sell is a life style, an identity... the product is secondary.

Now one difference between Toyota and Apple... bad reception could kill somebody, in a 9.11 call. But bad breaks WILL kill somebody, mostly they already have. But both, predictably, are charging consumers with operator error.

Now perhaps, not that this will do it, folks will learn these are products, not life styles... Fat chance, consumerist culture REQUIRES we buy into lifestyles.

[tridim]

43. BTW, Limbaugh is on right now defending Apple 110%.

Claiming "Liberals want Apple to die". :rofl:

Sell your stock, it's all over. Apple just got the kiss of death.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Of course Rush knows that... the White House

uses Ipads...

With Rush, insert company here, that liberals want to die.

[Lucian]

49. Reminds me of a Simpsons episode I watched yesterday...

where Lisa wanted a MyPod. The episode made fun of all the Apple fanboys, anyone who's willing to pay anything for the latest piece of crap Apple sells out on the market.

Know what I got today? A Droid X. Came out today. Know what? No dropped calls. :)

[Touchdown]

52. Simpsons stopped being relevant and funny 10 years ago.

but don't let that stop you from using a tired TV show to prove how with it and clever you are.:eyes:

Nobody gives a Droid up the ass what you got today. Why do you think we would?

[Lucian]

58. Ah. My favorite Apple fanboy.

:eyes:

How's that new iPhone of yours? Keeping calls? Oh. That's right. It's not. Steve Job's advice to fix the problem? "Don't hold it that way." What a douche.

I talked on my new Android phone today for an hour, holding it many different ways. No dropped calls. Still got 3G service. Imagine that.

So what kind of excuse do you offer this time?

[Touchdown]

68. Read the thread. Quit asking Q's I already answered.

I didn't get a new one because my old one works just fine.

I am not defending Steve Jobs in any way, and he is a douche for saying that. Always has been an asshole all his life.

It's not Steve's fault that you think we should all masturbate and love you in despair because you have a Droid. Like I said. I only care about what you got if it's sexually transmitted and your not getting a shot for it. Your Droid may be your new boyfriend, but we don't need to hear about what sick things you do with it.

[northzax]

81. i've had no problems

frankly, with my phone. some people have, most haven't. it's really not that big of a deal, unless you're one of the people having the issue, at which point you can get a refund.

you've used your Droid for an hour? and you think it's fabulous. great. I'm glad you're happy with it. I used my old iPhone for three years without major problems, and have had no problems with the new one.

but since we're talking anecdotally, my girlfriend borrows my iPhone to make calls in our apartment. her Droid doesn't get reception.

[Hissyspit]

84. Um, mine, as I have posted several times, is working FINE.

But let's just insult people. After all, you know the phone doesn't work because you've experienced it, right?

Let me be clear here. I think Apple is as open to criticism as anyone, but:

My Phone Is Working Great. No Problems. Well Worth The Money.

[LanternWaste]

Which is typically what is said of just about any popular thing

"stopped being relevant and funny 10 years ago..."

Which is typically what is said of just about any popular thing that begins to skewer one's own, personal sacred cows.

[NoGOPZone]

61. You'd like the Futurama episode about the iPhone and its fans

Attack of the Killer App. Came out a couple of weeks ago. Matt Groening must not like Apple.

[Lucian]

63. It's because Apple markets crap and people eat it up.

People would pay $500 for Steve Job's shit if Steve offered it to them. And they did, in the form of iPhone4.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. People pay for crap all the time

Iphone, Windows Vista, Microsoft 360, food with High Fructose Corn Syrup...

It is all in the marketing.

You feel superior since you did not buy one turd but bought another BRAND and LIFESTYLE? Congrats.

Time people realize that we do not buy stuff, we buy LIFESTYLES.

Damn it, people need to get a life... and chiefly a fucking clue.

[Lucian]

66. Apple knew of problems in the new iPhone, didn't give a crap:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38260210/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/

[mdmc]

87. I hate Apple

but rec the OP for the sig line:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. I hate consumerism

a little broader than Apple...

[mdmc]

95. yesyesyes

[Touchdown]

96. Jesus Loves Apple. So did Eve and the talking Snake!

But I like your avatar!:toast:

[LoZoccolo]

90. I bought an Android phone because of this.

I lost my old iPhone so I put myself on the waiting list for an iPhone 4. While I was waiting for it, this story about Consumer Reports testing the reception came out. I figured after a while that if Apple was denying it it would probably not get fixed and just went for an HTC Evo instead. I like it better!

[Lucian]

98. But, but, but...

good for you for buying an Android. After all, no one cares. :eyes: :sarcasm:

At least that's what another poster told me above. :eyes:

[Touchdown]

100. Getting suckered into the Android lifestyle is understandable.

Claiming your not and bashing Apple users is rank hypocrisy.

I'm attracted to hypocrisy like flies on shit.

And... I can do that too.:eyes:

[Lucian]

101. .

delete

[Lucian]

103. Wait...

why are we arguing? Seems like we're trying to defend one large corporation over another.

We're both liberals. I'm pretty sure we both have a lot of the same ideas about government. Let's bury the hatchet on this. AFAIK, both companies suck just because they're both very large.

[Touchdown]

105. I'm willing to bury it if you will!

:toast:

[Lucian]

106. ...

:toast:

[USArmyParatrooper]

102. I get the impression that many are cheering for Apple to fail

Or at least to fail at something.