Please help me respond to the homophobe in the family

[Maraya1969]

My brother is a Presbyterian minister. We are not close as you can imagine but occasionally we have email exchanges which inevitably turn out to be debates. But this one has just sickened me. Here is what I wrote to him.

"Dear XX

I noticed at one of your churches, (years ago) you had literature on a program that taught gay people how to be straight. I am curious if this is the group and what you have to say about it now.

Love,

XXXXXXXXXXXXX"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDiYeJ_bsQo&feature=related (A video of ex-gay "therapists who have now realized how wrong they were and are apologizing for the harm they have caused.


And this is the response I get in return, no compassion, no mention of the video, nothing.

"Dear XXX,

I am not sure what specifically you are referring to in your email. At the same time, I am friends with many of the folk from One by One, a ministry of and by ex homosexuals in the Presbyterian Church. I was present at their founding in 1993 and they asked me to be on the board, but I declined since I had already agreed to work with Sue Cyre in the founding of Theology Matters. At that same General Assembly I met Joe Nicolosi, the psychiatrist most noted for reparative therapy, assisting those who wish to be rid of homosexual desires. One by One is now part of Exodus International, the best known of the ministries for ex homosexuals. I picked up a brochure from them at the GA and will be asking the session of Fairview if it wishes to join its church association network.

Does this get at what you are asking?

Love,

XXX"

I am already checking out Exodus international and have yet to look up this psychiatrist Joe Nicolosi.

What I am asking is if anyone knows about these groups or a good, (short) place where I can send him so he can "see" the harm that he is in inflicting or supporting. Right now he is a wall against a wall against a wall with regard to him own emotions and I suppose that has something to do with his complete lack of compassion for the ex-gay realities.

I never noticed any homosexual attributes in him when he was getting into girls and such and I know a few broke his heart. BUT I came out as gay around the age of 27 and it was after that that he became actively involved in the politics of the Presbytery to ban gays from being ministers.

(years after coming out and having some long relationships I started liking men again.......I am a real bi-sexual. I mention this only because I have spoken about men here and I want to make sure no one thinks I am making anything up)

[EFerrari]

1. I wonder if this guy still has a license. He sounds like a major fraud.

Anyway, here's a link for you:

http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Joseph_Nicolosi

[meowomon]

2. Ask him why if it is so damned sinful to be gay, why didn't Jesus mention it even once?

Read the Gospels; Jesus never uttered one word against homosexuality. Yet, he railed against the money changers in the temple and spoke of healing and serving the poor and down trodden. Jesus spoke of many things, but never once did he mention homosexuality.

[Touchdown]

8. Jesus did mention homosexuality. Many times.

"Love your fellow man as I have loved you." "Peter. Before the cock (does something I conveniently forgot), 3 times you will have denied even knowing me. You heartless Bastard! I want my CDs back!"

:P

[meowomon]

15. LOL

[Maraya1969]

16. I sent him a picture of a guy holding a sign saying "This is what

Jesus said about homosexuals " "

[Touchdown]

3. I cannot help you. I left the church years ago because those people forced me to.

They cannot be changed. Their minds cannot be reasoned with. Like alcoholics, they have to hit rock bottom before they will let anything in.

Joe Nicolosi is notorious in the anti-gay crusade racket. He is a dis-barred psychiatrist and has been denounced for his "reparative therapy" and use of shock treatment. He may still be involved with NARTH. He is a dangerous quack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nicolosi

Groups critical of reparative therapy include The National Association of Social Workers, The American Psychological Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Counseling Association, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and the American Academy of Pediatrics.<7>
The American Psychological Association reviewed the literature on sexual orientation change efforts over the past fifty years, and classed Nicolosi and NARTH's reparative therapy as conversion therapy. Nicolosi is cited throughout the report, although his research was criticised on methodological grounds, and some of it excluded on that basis.<4> The APA cites Nicolosi in its 2009 resolution and policy statement, and "encourages mental health professionals to avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts by promoting or promising change in sexual orientation when providing assistance to individuals distressed by their own or others’ sexual orientation and concludes that the benefits reported by participants in sexual orientation change efforts can be gained through approaches that do not attempt to change sexual orientation".<4>
The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers state:
“ Sexual orientation has proved to be generally impervious to interventions intended to change it, which are sometimes referred to as “reparative therapy.” No scientifically adequate research has shown that such interventions are effective or safe. Moreover, because homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality, national mental health organizations do not encourage individuals to try to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Therefore, all major national mental health organizations have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. The statement of the American Psychiatric Association cautions that “he potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior.”<8>

[Radical Activist]

4. Well

it sounds like he's telling you that this is something he feels strongly about and he isn't going to change his mind that people should be able to go to these groups if they want "to be rid of homosexual desires." He probably sees the people in the video as misguided lost sheep.

Sorry I don't have resources to recommend. You have a steep hill to climb. Good luck.

[Touchdown]

5. More on Nicolosi... and yes, he knew George Rekers, Boy Renter.

http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressreleases/2010/05/8735/


Leaving in a huff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DOCeenjAio

[MajorChode]

6. Don't bother. There is no reasoning with these types of people

When someone decides God is on their side, there is no higher authority you can appeal which is going to trump that in their mind. There is no reasoning with those who reject reason.

[Touchdown]

7. No truer words are spoken.

:hug:

[RKP5637]

11. Exactly! These people will drain your energy and basically your life force. You need to

move on and let them wither. There are too many positive and enlightened people in the world than to try to change those living in the dark ages. Often it's better to move on with ones life into positive territory and leave the negative behind.

[Withywindle]

9. Neither the Ten Commandments nor the quotes allegedly from Jesus in the NT mention it at all.

Obviously if it were that important to Christianity, it would be mentioned or alluded to in one of the above, right? Yeah. No. So the alleged "Christians" who act like it's THE IMPORTANT ISSUE OF OUR AGE are not even reading their own Bible. Refusing to give away all one's own possessions to help the poor, or working on the sabbath are far worse sins according to their own scripture.

BUT I came out as gay around the age of 27 and it was after that that he became actively involved in the politics of the Presbytery to ban gays from being ministers.

This is the real issue here. Not theology. Not "ex-gay" snake oil. It's family and it's personal. Something about your own coming out deeply upset him. (IMO) I don't think there will be any further progress until he is able to be honest about why that affected him so much. He's the one with the Issue, not you. But as long as he's in that fundie mindset of "I know the TRUTH and you don't" he won't be able to be honest about it.

Maybe down inside there's a fear of his beloved sister in Hell. That's a primal child fear. Hell is a fairytale invented to scare children (of all ages) into staying in line and trying to police others.

[MrModerate]

10. Your letter and his reply don't seem to be on a level . . .

Where either one of you could connect as human beings. Your letter could have, with minor edits, have gone to the Chamber of Commerce asking about a pamphlet on permitted driveway sealants and his could have been an extract from a biographical sketch in the back of the Sunday program.

IMHO, if you want to figure out your relative/connect with him again, you need to do quite a bit more than ask him about a group he may or may not be affiliated with. How about telling him what his behavior does to you and asking him how he justifies that with his Christian principles. Now *that* would be an interesting conversation-starter!

P.S.: My brother-in-law is a presbyterian minister (from the Christian wing of the Presbyterian Church) and has never given the homophobes the time of day. So it's not as if your brother is the be-all and end-all of Presbyterianism.

[INTMANOMYST]

13. true, in fact,

my parents are pastors in the RCA, and I used to work for the PCUSA once upon a time.
There are, in fact, two branches of the Presbyterian Church that split many years ago- The PCA and the PCUSA, and the PCA tends to be much more conservative than the PCUSA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_in_America

(many in the PCUSA believe in ordaining homosexuals. Probably many in the PCA do too, but far fewer.)

[INTMANOMYST]

12. I tend to agree with

those who say you can't reason with someone with those convictions. I mean, *he'd* say *he* can't reason with *you*, no?
It's sad. But if you believe, you can always pray.
I wanted to try and add a lighter note: I just found this site today, which I don't know much about, but it looks like a bunch of Christians who more or less agree with you, at least in that homosexuality is really not some sort of "supersin" as many ACT as if it is:
Don't know if you've heard of these guys:
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
Look for the interview with the guy who explains on the radio show his position.
The site really gave me a giggle.

Anyway, I know it must be hard to have that wedge between you and your own brother, but I hope it gives you some hope that not all Christians are against you.
(hugs)

[zabet]

14. Just tell him to

'practice what he preaches'. True Christians do not judge. A Church is a 'hospital for sinners' not, 'a hotel for Saints'.