Study: 47% of boomers don’t have enough to retire

[NNN0LHI]

http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/07/study-47-of-boomers-dont-have-enough-to-retire.html

by Reuters | Posted today at 1:14 p.m.

No matter their income level, a significant number of U.S. workers are likely to struggle to meet basic expenses during retirement, a new study of baby boomers and “generation Xers” released on Tuesday shows.

Over 40 percent of people with the lowest incomes face prospects of depleted savings within 10 years after retirement, with that number climbing toward 60 percent after another decade, according to Washington-based Employee Benefit Research Institute. snip

The warning comes despite improvements in retirement savings levels since 2006 when many employers adopted automatic enrollment guidelines for 401(k) plans, said VanDerhei.

In the last 20 years or so, many U.S. companies have dropped defined benefit pensions that pay out a regular sum in favor of plans such as 401(k)s in which a worker puts aside pretax dollars to build a retirement nest egg.

But for many workers, 401(k) balances are still relatively small. The study’s results are based on a model weighing inputs including age, income, retirement contribution tendencies, savings plan changes and employee behavior from a database of 401(k) participants.

Based on these factors, EBRI found that 47 percent of the early boomers, now 56 to 62 and nearing retirement age, are likely to exhaust their retirement savings.

[Name removed]

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[DURHAM D]

3. I guess they should not have been screwed by the generation before them.

The GREATEST GENERATOIN won a war. The next generaton - lost in the jungle. Bad kids. Bad kids.

[scarletlib]

11. yeah, many people seem to think the boomers 'got it all'

Well not really. The greatest generation got the most: Full SSA benefits, full pensions and medical from companies, full GI benefits. They were heartily rewarded for their service to this country. After them the next generation (not the boomers) but those who were children & teenagers too young for WWII got the next greater amount. Ever since the boomers have been grown the benefits packages from jobs, GI benefits etc have been either decreasing or stayed static.

Ours is a large generation but not the greediest by any means.

[Lost4words]

20. wrong placement sorry

[slampoet]

52. Here is what you got.

An entire global cultural cannon geared to your generation and it's buying habits, providing goods and services just to you your entire lives, while younger generations would never again have industry adapt to their needs in the same way.

Useful birth control and the political cover for 25 years to use it

Better college grants than the current Pell grant and others

All the best years of American and German Autos new and used

NO AIDS!! I was 12 when AIDS was discovered, how do you think that affected my prom?

Your generation got Viagra before anyone got a cure or decent treatment for AIDS.

You also got Viagra when the number of birth controls available was DECLINING.

The ability to experiment with drugs without being sent to the institutional rehab industry.

The ability to hitchhike in your youth.

A music industry that wasn't interested in suing its most loyal fans for bootleg recordings. No Ticketmaster. Actual freedom to play new music on radio stations.

You got to keep "Thirtysomething" on the air as long as you liked.




I'm sure there are many, not that every generation doesn't have plus and minus.

[Name removed]

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[sufrommich]

57. So it's all about the sex,drugs and rock and roll. nt

[Name removed]

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[slampoet]

66. I actually thought this was a pretty good a fair list without much emotion

that also demonstrated the amazing power of the boomers.


I suppose if you want to be angry then let it be.

[laughingliberal]

84. I'm sure that's your opinion of your post. I fail to see how anything you said makes up for our...

declining wages while the employers demanded more work for less money every year.

[bettyellen]

70. ha ha the "entire global cannon" has shifted to cater to dumb teenagers and you probably think

you think being marketed to was some sort of advantage? WTF i hope this was a parody.

[slampoet]

81. AIDS still kills people because the market for erection drugs is more profitable.

Your turn.

[laughingliberal]

85. Most baby boomers are just now reaching an age where erection drugs might be needed.

Once again, the 'greatest generations' crap is blamed on the boomers.

[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

83. Here's what else we got:

Decreasing wages over 30 years

A Wall Street scam to replace defined benefit plans if we could save out of our decreasing wages

No pensions. A Wall Street scam to replace defined benefit plans if we could save out of our decreasing wages

Increased payroll taxes to fund our parents' SS and create an SS surplus to fund our own which was squandered on wars and tax cuts for the rich.

Cost of housing, transportation, and medical care outpacing inflation while our wage declined

[blueworld]

220. Kudos to you; the new GOPig motto: "let them eat cat food"

Yours are some of the most important points in this whole (excellent) thread, I think.

Boomers paid through the nose for years, and are still paying taxes. Boomers also created thousands of businesses, employing tens of thousands of people, developed stellar computer technology...etc.

We paid & now we're being mocked because we believed we could collect? We actually believed we could retire BEFORE our obituaries were published? (Online because newsprint will be extinct soon too).

The irony of this is that all our spending also funded the children of the rich so they could avoid military service, increase their trust fund investments & buy their way into office today where they complain because we live longer than they expected us to.

[spooky3]

177. there is FAR more scholarship etc. funding now than when most boomers were in college

and women never were safe hitchhiking.

So many times people think only of men (and whites) when they make nostalgic statements about the past.

[Name removed]

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[Lost4words]

45. Was she GOD and all knowing or do you believe the ramblings

of a locked away senior over all other facts available to you.

you dont know what you dont know.

[slampoet]

54. I learned first hand. Backed it up with facts over the years.

The Lack of respect you have for your elders is evident.

One of the "locked away seniors" you deride was a noted sociologist who was a VERY important person in the New Deal.

But please go ahead and show your sheltered nature while you throw out an other stereotype from the Simpsons instead of thinking for your self.

[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

86. "The Lack of respect you have for your elders is evident."

Oh, the irony. And AFAICS, you're referring to one elder.

[LanternWaste]

53. I imagine everyone blames the preceding generation for the ills of mankind

I imagine everyone blames the preceding generation for the ills of mankind, credits itself for getting back onto the right pathway, and will eventually blame the proceeding generation as being lazy-- all based on little more than anecdotal evidence and the need to blame someone.

Happened at the dawn of written history and continues right down to your own indictments.

[laughingliberal]

6. I guess Ron and the boys shouldn't have paid for the tax cuts for the rich with our payroll taxes.

While our wages declined steadily over 30 years.

[MedicalAdmin]

216. Reagan WAS the worst president ever.

No doubt about that and he was NOT a boomer - I'm not even sure he would qualify as human.

Having said that, the job outlook these days is grim, grim, grim. For EVERYONE. I think it is high time that we realize that all liberals and humans (not uber rich) are in the same boat and have the same fight. It's us versus the rich and it's a fight we either win or the price will be paid for generations. But we have leverage. When the rich say that if we tax them at higher rates they will "take their ball and go home" we can tell them to piss off and then ban them and their companies from the US marketplace until they are willing to play fair.

Henry Ford, for all his political failing got this basic point: if your employees don't make enough to buy your shit then you ain't gonna sell much shit in the long run. Any corporation which doesn't get this (and I'm talking about you Walmart) and any of the elite who don't want to do the right things and start paying for infrastructure and their fair share can take a hike and open shop in Somalia.

WTF do they think they can sell without regulations? The EU? Puhlease.

[msongs]

7. lol the slacker generation will have it worse nt

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Lost4words]

47. You are talking trash after your posts.

Im 56 squirt!

[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

9. We paid our way and our parents' way. Our payroll taxes went up while our wages declined & we...

were expected to still be able to put substantial amounts into the 401k scams.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

105. +10

[Name removed]

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[emilyg]

19. +1

[Lost4words]

38. oh well nt

and I thought that was a stellar reply, I guess I must have crossed some line with the authorities. thanks for your reply emilyg, without your +1 I would have had a harder time determining the location. I still dont know the reason it must be an age thing with the authorities. I 'll put a stop watch on this one.

soon to be:toast:

[sendero]

18. It wasn't the boomers...

... it was the "greatest generation" and the new dealers that set up the ponzi scheme that is social security.

[Lasher]

32. Social Security is not a ponzi scheme

And the trickle down theory doesn't work.

[sendero]

76. Yes, it is. You probably don't even actually ..

.... know what a ponzi scheme is.

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/12/is_social_secur.html?campaign_id=rss_daily

[Lasher]

201. And maybe you're not quite as smart as you think you are.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news/economy/social.security.fortune/

[Subdivisions]

4. That number will go up. n/t

[deaniac21]

5. No problem. With social security and medicare cuts on the way

none of them will be able to retire until they are 70.

[Lost4words]

33. "they" you are they we are they,if you want to segragate us thats fine with me

Its so like youth to assume problems others face will not someday effect them that part is human nature.

you think you will ever see retirement if the situation does not change? And change soon? do you believe this is isolated to the older generation and you because you are working today thats how you life will always be, you are in for a major surprize!

and the senario you describe in your post, you believe that 50% of my generation out of work with no bennifets doesnt effect the landscape, the more of the population that out of work the lower wages become for all.

you act like this is My generations mess, like nobody voted democratic in the last 30 years. that kind of talk has to stop. If a place to target is what you are looking for try the Establishment Elites form BOTH parties. This is a class war not a generational war.

I wanted more for you than I had, or at least the same opportunities not less.

[deaniac21]

219. You aren't good at recognizing sarcasm, Dude. I'm 59.

[Gormy Cuss]

8. Wow. So the generation without pensions is less prepared? Who'da thunk it.

401K should never have become a substitute for defined benefit plans.

[laughingliberal]

10. Exactly. We paid into SS on an increasing basis to support our parents who were the last ones with..

decent pension plans. They've stolen the SS surplus we created to fund the tax cuts for the wealthy.

[marions ghost]

25. +++++

Exactly!

But this lie that the Boomers caused the present situation perpetuates...

[taught_me_patience]

62. Who was in charge when pensions were cut out...

oh yeah... that would be the boomers.

[sufrommich]

65. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone tell me

that they do just as well without a union without ever realizing that they do just as well because businesses had no choice but to compete with union companies with good pay,health benefits and pensions.Now that unions are all but minority players in the job market, that is slowly going away.Unionize or accept the crumbs, that has always been the case and always will.

[marions ghost]

67. Not the boomer generation as a whole

During Reagan the WW2 parents were calling the shots and busting the unions. We are now reaping the consequences of the Bushites, who in the last 8 years, were putting Daddy's plans and policies into action thru the son.

Clinton and Obama BOTH inherited Bush legacies.

[taught_me_patience]

69. Boomers, in general, were running the companies in the 80's and 90's

When most pensions were destroyed.

[marions ghost]

71. they weren't top executives

And top executives are usually Republicans for the most part eg. Bill Gates.

Republican corporatists have destroyed things, not "Boomers."

[laughingliberal]

90. Yeah, we were the wage slaves working harder every year for less money and benefits. nt

[bettyellen]

127. good lord get a calcalator and stop posting bullshit

[laughingliberal]

89. +1000 nt

[laughingliberal]

87. Wrong. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

121. 401ks came about in the early 1980s, when the oldest boomers were under age 40.

Most corporations dropping defined benefit plans weren't headed by boomers.Try again.

[taught_me_patience]

172. Sorry man... pensions were dropped in the 90's

When the tech bubble took off. Boomers went right along with it. Boomers need to take some responsibility because they played a MAJOR role in the destruction of pensions in favor of 401k's.

[Gormy Cuss]

210. Sorry, wrong again.

The tech bubble had little to do with it, other than to provide cover for the corporations that hadn't properly funded their pensions. The burst of the tech bubble did make a sizeable gouge in the 401k balances of all those boomers who had been shifted to this vehicle rather than traditional pensions.

By the 1990s most companies with pension plans had already lengthened vesting period, decreased contributions, or froze participation because they were being phased out. By this time it was the oldest boomers who were dominating executive suites but that handful of boomers were finishing the dismantling that started in the 1980s. Those boomers need to take responsibility, but to say that "boomers went right along with it" is just wrong because it implies that as a group boomers had the power to dictate corporate change. It's like saying that because a few Gen Xers and Gen Yers dominate boardrooms today all Gen Xers and Gen Yers are responsible for offshoring,the high unemployment rate, the crappy wages and benefits, etc.

[blueworld]

217. I beg to differ

That was the 40-somethings under St. Ronnie, who was the first to raise the SS retirement age & start playing craps with our taxes. I was 32 when he ascended into office - not many government hacks were under 40.

[MedicalAdmin]

218. You say boomers like trekkers say "the borg."

They are not a monolithic block so please stop treating them like automatons.

[SharonAnn]

68. Right. They stole it "fair and square" and they won't give it back!

[sufrommich]

61. Yep, I'll be getting my union pension in a couple of weeks.

Funny that the most secure boomers are those who were fortunate to get the last of the dying union jobs. It would be nice if todays workers put 2 and 2 together and figured out that union representation is the way to go.

[laughingliberal]

91. +1000 nt

[iamjoy]

12. When The Boomers Run Out

When the Baby Boomers run out of Retirement savings, they will turn to their children. This will further compromise the ability of these children to save for their own retirement, and they may have to turn to their children... Well, you get the idea. The ones without children or with children who are unwilling or unable to help are completely hosed.

I guess we'll just bring back the workhouses. That'll teach people to be poor.

:eyes:

[Lost4words]

43. At that point I will turn to a life of crime and returning the favor X 10!

and thats human nature you can count on. I hope you are not in my way or in front of me in an expensive automobile.

sorry got to provide for the family you know. Tell me what other option will there be?

[DeschutesRiver]

13. Guess I am in the 53% who are doing just fine still

I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke.

I was in the group of Boomers who was frugal, put away for a rainy day, put away for retirement and managed the damned thing myself. I was the Boomer that the other boomers made fun of for being so fucking frugal, who was pitied because I didn't have all the toys and bells and whistles. You know, because as one told me, they knew I must be broke and having business problems not to be living the high life as they saw it. But actually, I was probably the only one they knew that was solvent and not living on credit cards and helocs, pretending like that was wealth, instead of one step ahead of debtor's prison in the old days.

And the younger generation stayed away from the frugal people like me, prefering to hang out with and enjoy the largess of the spendaholic boomers, I guess not understanding where their enablement of this behavior was heading. Now they know.

Now, among the peer group, I am the bitch because I am not suffering like they are currently. Can't help them, because I can be happy without the "stuff", and they won't be happy unless they are retired with the "stuff", which looks like it won't be happening. If we continue to be careful, manage what we have saved carefully, we aren't going to exhaust our retirement savings, nor need social security. It still won't be living large, but it is living with less worry, which was always worth more than a new toy in the garage.

I guess given all the angst amongst the Boomers re their fate, I hadn't expected that 53% of us had actually not acted like asses.

[diane in sf]

21. Aren't you a self righteous piece of work! One can be as frugal as possible, but it

is almost impossible to put away money when steady employment isn't available. The savings go into keeping you afloat until the next employment is available. This is a typical story for boomers and everyone younger. The lifetime jobs started disappearing in the 70s as well as all the other underpinnings of a secure middle class life.

[marions ghost]

27. +++++

This is the typical story....absolutely.

[Lost4words]

50. TRUTH

[DeschutesRiver]

88. Been putting away money since I was 16

and I'm 52 now.

I've done without, probably more than it sounds like most of the rest of you have, thus you mistake doing without for some kind of self righteousness. And what is a "lifetime job"? I've never had one, but from the time I put myself through college and grad school by working multiple jobs, I've lived through more recessions and bad employment times than most kids alive today.

If you aren't a boomer, you have no idea how frustrating it is to watch people with "plenty" piss it all away, and make the rest of society pick up the tab for them. Some of them had it all, and now expect me to feel pity for their choices? I don't think so.

[Lorien]

193. Or if health insurance rates rise beyond your ability to pay them

THEN you get sick. One accident or illness will wipe out most of us.

[Art_from_Ark]

196. Not to mention the effects of inflation

In 1967, $40,000 was considered to be a pretty good nest egg. Today, it might buy you a couple of years of retirement. As for investing that money, good luck-- the stock market is swarming with sharks and even the highest regarded companies can leave (small-time) investors in the lurch. And banks don't pay squat for savings any more, because they can get practically free money from Uncle Sam, and invest it right back in Uncle Sam's Treasuries for a nice profit.

[Lasher]

26. Well I'm doing OK too for now.

But my retirement plans could have been thwarted at any time by something like a heart attack and I don't feel like being so smug about it.

But that's a little off track. Maybe you'd like to more directly join in with others in this thread who want to help Republicans renege on the Trust Fund treasury bonds.

[DeschutesRiver]

94. Don't feel smug in the slightest

anyone's retirement plans or life plans can be thwarted by the unexpected, or the lack of funds with which to get the best care or make the best choices. That is an absolute fact of life, which I completely accept.

But expecting me to feel sympathy for the group I specifically described, ie the boomers who pissed their good fortune made at the expense of others away, and anyone of those younger genXrs that I saw participating in the same, is really over the top.

[enough]

29. Man you are giving my generation a bad name.

Rarely have I heard such a self-righteous declaration. The self-serving stereotyping here is .....

Oh never mind.

[DeschutesRiver]

92. By not caring about people who pissed away their lives on toys, while

others barely can make it? You realize the kind of boomer I am describing, don't you? I am not talking about the general population at large, not those who are suffering from other than self inflicted boomer wounds. The stereotype I am thinking of here is...

oh, ditto that never mind.

[enough]

102. Do you know a lot of these people? I don't. I'm 66, highly educated, self-employed

all my life, as is my spouse. No retirement in view or desired -- our greatest hope is that we won't be forced to "retire." We have never even imagined retirement, wouldn't be able to afford it.

We don't personally know anyone who fits the caricature you have painted. We must be living in the wrong part of town.

[DeschutesRiver]

106. It isn't a caricature

and yes, over the last few decades, quite a few of them. More than I could stomach, in fact.

I was a lawyer, I had some for clients, some for neighbors, and I met even more in my hobbies. What you might believe is a caricature was my reality for quite some time, though no longer. The last decade or so of extreme excess was enough to make me a hermit in some ways.

This wasn't about a certain area of town, as I have lived rurally for decades now. But I traveled, and I met many people, and I just got tired of the excess and the whining by people who have, imho, never known a moment of frugality, or suffering. Thankfully, on balance, I have met more people with better messages and lives and so I don't dwell much on the others. But no, if you haven't met such types, you have no idea of your good fortune in avoiding them.

[Go2Peace]

136. Get real. Everyone didn't live in southern California

Open up your mind a bit. I would bet if they studied it, those living in the ripping "materialistic" areas are actually better represented in the "53%". In many parts of the country people never saw that kind of prosperity.

Just like the US overrepresents consumption, a relative smaller percentage represent the majority of the consumptive lifestyle within the US as well. I have lived a number of places and know that to be the truth.

Maybe you should just move if you don't like living in the midst of shallow consumers. Not everyplace and everyone, not even a majority, did that friend!

[DeschutesRiver]

140. I have always lived in Oregon

in rural areas to boot. Right now I live in a remote rural ranching community - filled with people from the Valley with vacation homes here and there. The stories are legend of what some did, and where they are right now financially. If you think there are areas completely untouched by the ripple effect of excess, I respectfully disagree.

I traveled to many states (and countries), and I have listened to what people have shared with me, both the good and the offensive. So I can only go by what I've seen, in a variety of places. Shallow consumers are to be found nationwide, though there are concentrations of them in certain locales - I did spend time with many Californians that I knew, and that type of excess is familiar to me as well. But it isn't just a southern California thing by any means.

It remains my contention that if anyone is broke due to their excesses, as I have witnessed in a variety of situations over the last decade, I have no sympathy for them.

[MedicalAdmin]

224. While I agree with you about how you feel.

That doesn't change the fact that this spend beyond your means meme was sold to people by corps. No - they didn't have to buy into it, but neither do kids have to start smoking. That does not absolve the corps of behaving in a lawful and ethical manner. And when they don't, who do you blame, the victims of the corporations?

[MedicalAdmin]

221. Well, it could be worse.

I am from Gen X - the generation following the boomers. I can't even imagine having a house never mind retirement. I plan on working until I drop. FYI - my wife and I live so frugally we are considered insane by relative and we always have.

We have had to because we came of age during the last big downturn in the economy and as such couldn't get emplyment that either payed, had benefits, was full time, or was in any field that could be considered career track. The studies on the generations that can't get steady employment after college is clear - we never recover financially and will never make enough to retire. We never even have a shot. And even I can't imagine what it is like to graduate from college today and not even be able to get a job flipping burgers or waiting tables. That flushing sound you are hearing is a generation circling the bowl.

I think we need to stop this generational blame BS and start pulling together. It's us versus the rich and it's a fight we all have a dog in.

[laughingliberal]

110. Yeah, I sure pissed mine away. On medical expenses, natural disasters, a crashing economy,...

and a stupid assed decision to work in a profession where I thought I could help people that stagnated my wages and worked me into the ground over 30 years.

[DeschutesRiver]

137. So then you weren't the boomer I referenced, the excess high life living,

spendaholic whose materialistic pursuits meant living beyond their means.

The world is filled with many people, and many different types of situations. What you are describing is a valid point; but what I was speaking about had nothing to do with that.

[laughingliberal]

141. Your message was that most of the boomers are spendthrifts who brought it on themselves.

The truth is most of us were working class people who fell further behind every year due to stagnating/declining wages and benefits and the cost of housing, transportation, and medical care outpacing inflation and wages.

[DeschutesRiver]

146. I hear you that you believe you read that in my post, but

here is what I said:

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke.

I was in the group of Boomers who was frugal, put away for a rainy day, put away for retirement and managed the damned thing myself. I was the Boomer that the other boomers made fun of for being so fucking frugal, who was pitied because I didn't have all the toys and bells and whistles. You know, because as one told me, they knew I must be broke and having business problems not to be living the high life as they saw it. But actually, I was probably the only one they knew that was solvent and not living on credit cards and helocs, pretending like that was wealth, instead of one step ahead of debtor's prison in the old days."

How is that saying that "most boomers are spendthrifts who brought it on themselves", esp. when I even mention that I was in a group of those Boomers who were frugal and not spendthrift? I am talking about a certain kind of boomer, and you are changing my subject to something entirely different. I think I am beginning to understand how people are projecting their own different issues into my post, but really what you say isn't there. Can you see that?

[Pithlet]

150. The tone says most. It drips with it.

"I was the boomer that..." It implies you are the exception to the rule.

[DeschutesRiver]

162. If you wish to hold on to

your mistaken notion, it is fine with me. Truly, I don't take stuff like that personally, because it has nothing to do with what was posted.

[Pithlet]

165. "I was probably the only one they knew....."

Gee. The tone. How did anyone read it wrong?

[laughingliberal]

164. Your contrast was you, who did it the right way & are fine for retirement, and those who blew it all

on toys, and are going to be destitute in retirement. Life for workers these past 30 years has been damned tough. That accounts for far more of the 47% of those who have nothing left to show for their years of struggle than your 'spendthrifts.'

Admitting there may be some without any money to retire or live now who met with unfortunate conditions, your implication was that most who are in that position are at fault. Perhaps it was not intended but it was definitely how it came across.

[MedicalAdmin]

225. Good point.

You didn't actually say that, did you?

One can look at the denotation of his statements and see them for what they are or one can infer the connotation of his statements and make of them what one wants to.

I'm for giving a fellow american the benefit of the doubt.

[Lorien]

195. If I wanted to listen to the opinion of Mr. Limbaugh

I'd turn on his program to hear such sanctimonious bullshit.

[Lorien]

194. Toys? Is that what you're calling health care costs now?

Oh, if only I hadn't frittered away that $48,000 on ER visits and life saving surgery that my insurance refused to cover...:eyes:

[marions ghost]

30. - - - - -

oh yeah, everybody but you is a spendaholic. And "an ass" :eyes:

[DeschutesRiver]

96. If you think every boomer that is broke now is the result of something unforeseen,

then you probably aren't part of this boomer generation. I've lived it, I've seen it, and it was sickening.

You can celebrate the consumer excess of some of the broke boomers. I am not built that way, true.

[laughingliberal]

112. Of course it wasn't unforseen. The busting of the unions and push for right to work states with

the concommitant decline in wages and benefits over the life of our careers resulted in a totally predictable outcome for working class boomers.

[DeschutesRiver]

134. Valid point, though it is not the point I was making, of course. nt

[laughingliberal]

139. Your point was hurtful to those of us who kept trying & struggling against the odds & who have been

finished off completely in this last financial crisis. Far more of our generation is in dire straits due to the worker destroying policies of the past 30 years than are in dire straits due to your cherry picked 'spendaholics.'

Perpetuating the myth of the spendthrift, undisciplined boomers allows the theft they are about to perpetrate on us in a way everyone can feel justified about. Exactly the way Reagan's 'welfare queens' allowed the country to turn their backs on poor mothers who were struggling to raise their children.

[DeschutesRiver]

148. But you are not part of the group of which I speak, so you have no reason

to be hurt by it. The point I was making truly had nothing to do with you.

It is not a myth that some boomers were absolute spendthrifts. And no, I am not letting the ones who were spendthrifts off the hook. I see what is happening - you want your point to be the only valid one, and mine to be a "myth". Both of our points are valid, and that is how I see it.

[laughingliberal]

180. I believe your spendthrifts are a minority of our generation who is now without anything to retire

and shining a spotlight on that while ignoring that the 30 year war on workers has been more the problem is a distraction from those who really brought the world down around us. I'm not denying there are some who lived beyond their means but I believe this is being hyped and made to look as if it's the main problem and it is not.

By the way, if your means are insuffiient, it's hard to live within them. If your paycheck is not going up and your expenses are, there's a point where it is unsustainable. I was in the wage slave class that kept trying to get a leg up on the rung of the middle class ladder and kept getting knocked back down. Many in our generation were in this shape. There is also a split between the early boomers and the later ones. I'm 55. Those who had a 10 year head start on us did a little better. Everything was going backwards for workers about the time we entered the workforce.

[Go2Peace]

138. You saw what you wanted to see. It wasn't that way everywhere

If you hated your neighbors so much you should have tried moving.

I never participated in that either and hated materialism, but I did not become cold and cynical toward others in society. Yes people should have learned, yes some people never learned, but I still believe that we all benifit by changing it but keeping our compassion.

Your attitude reaks of republican thought processes.

[laughingliberal]

143. "Your attitude reaks of republican thought processes."

Specifically, the Republican ideas Reagan made fashionable.

[DeschutesRiver]

152. That speaks for itself. nt

[Go2Peace]

168. It does

I am not going to sit quiet on this site and listen to people tell me the same stuff that I can hear on Fox news.

You can relax though, because if you lost everything, even yes, through your own foolishness, I would still fight to make sure that there is something available to support you when you are elderly. I just can't get into the "just desserts" mentality. It only harms us all further.

[alstephenson]

31. Wow. Good for you! Aren't you special!

No, smug, obnoxious, judgmental and LUCKY. That's you.

[Desertrose]

34. Well goodie for you...some of us never had enough to put away.

I've always been careful and was never in to "things" and the owning of said things...I just never had enough to put away.

Divorced with 2 teenagers and aged parents to take care of.....oh yeah, I was a real spendaholic. Went through a bankruptcy cause I had to use credit cards to survive. That was way fun.

Retire...me? That ain't never gonna happen. How nice you mention "we"... I'm on my own. I'm glad you're doing ok...but for the ones who aren't...just maybe its not because they spent all their money but maybe they just never had that much to begin with. And maybe it is though no fault of their own. Does blaming them make you feel that much better?


"Acted like asses"...very compassionate and understanding of you.
:eyes:

[DeschutesRiver]

107. Then you were not the kind of person I was referring to in the post, right?

which was a freespending, keep up with the Jones and beyond, credit cardoholic living beyond their means in order to buy more toys kind of person.

I don't read that in what you posted, so this wasn't about the situation you find yourself in, which I do understand is in the cards for any one of us. But again, respectfully speaking, that really wasn't my topic or the kind of personal situation that raised my ire and caused me to rant.

[Mnemosyne]

35. Hope you never become seriously ill... n/t

[laughingliberal]

36. I was in the group who lost everything to medical expenses in my 30's, started over, rebuilt,

lost everything to a flood in my 40's, started over, rebuilt, and lost everything in the past 3 years of unemployment and my husband's business failing in the recession.

But congratulations to you. I was just a naive RN who kept busting my ass in the service of others and trying to make it, believing if I worked hard and kept trying to save, I'd be OK.

[Bluebear]

40. Love and strength to you LL.

Somehow, some way we will all make it through this. I hope :)

[laughingliberal]

42. Thank you, Bluebear.

:hug:

[DeschutesRiver]

97. This is probably the last response or two of mine, as it is clear that some of you aren't reading

what I said, and are knee jerking, with all due respect.

Your situation wasn't even what I was talking about. My post is very clear about the kind of people who I have no sympathy for in the boomer generation. If you are fair, you will read it again, and realize that your situation was not what I was discussing, okay?

You are in the boat that any of us could be in, ie you tried to do things right and life came at you horribly.

[Pithlet]

103. What were you expecting? What was even the point of posting what you did?

Do you think that spendthrifts exist only in the boomer category? So posting about them in this context implies that any boomer who didn't save enough just spent it frivouously on toys. You can hardly blame people for reading that into it. A vast majority of boomers did not spend their way into this mess.

[DeschutesRiver]

Here is exactly what I said

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke.

I was in the group of Boomers who was frugal, put away for a rainy day, put away for retirement and managed the damned thing myself. I was the Boomer that the other boomers made fun of for being so fucking frugal, who was pitied because I didn't have all the toys and bells and whistles. You know, because as one told me, they knew I must be broke and having business problems not to be living the high life as they saw it. But actually, I was probably the only one they knew that was solvent and not living on credit cards and helocs, pretending like that was wealth, instead of one step ahead of debtor's prison in the old days."

Respectfully speaking, I don't see the implication there that you see. To me, it is clear that I am talking about one type of boomer, and I do feel badly that people here are reading things into that that were not intended, nor implied. I said it already in the above quote - I have zip sympathy "for the other Boomers who are in the 47% THAT ARE SPENDAHOLICS and are now broke."

[Pithlet]

114. Yeah, I read what you said.

And my point stands. The reasons you're getting the reaction you're getting is that the DUers responding understand that spendthrifts have little to nothing to do with the problem being discussed. Given that and the tone of your post, it's little wonder people are jumping to the conclusions they are. You're ignoring other factors that contribute heavily to the problem. You're ignoring the fact that real wages haven't increased since the 1970's. Pensions plans have disappeared. Health care costs have risen faster than inflation. Those are just a few of the major ones off the top of my head just to start with.

[DeschutesRiver]

115. Right, but while that may be a point, and an entirely valid one that can be made in addition

to my point, it wasn't what the point I was making.

Maybe that is the problem, but it still doesn't change the point I was making, which is something equally valid and entirely different.

[bettyellen]

130. the gist of your post was that you suffered a stingy and joyless existence for years and are glad

it;s become the norm. Life is getting suckier for everone and you're glad about this.
Maybe that's where the bitch idea comes in to play. Just saying.

[DeschutesRiver]

153. Living simply isn't a bad thing; listening to other people piss on it

probably does say more about them than about me.

And your post tells me more about you than it does about me.

[Pithlet]

175. You know, I recognize this. This is affluence talking. You live in an affluent community

don't you? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But I suspect I'm not. People who do tend to think this way because they are surrounded by it. They see their fellow affluent members of their circle charging up the unnecessary things so this warps their thinking and they think that's what everyone else does, too. I know this because I hear it and see it all the time. That's what everyone else is doing with their charge cards so they just assume that's what everyone across the socio-economic board does too. It's typical. Everyone who struggles? Everyone who's in debt? Everyone who lost their house, etc. They did it to themselves. And it's wrongheaded thinking. I saw you down thread commiserating with someone else about credit card debt who seems to share that thinking. It's simplistic. It's so far from the whole picture of the economy it's laughable. Yeah. Simple living is going to get us all out of this mess. Really. Let's try liveable wages and getting our jobs back. Let's try banks that don't screw us over. Let's try taking care of healthcare. Issues that more than likely led to a lot of people racking up lots o debt.

[laughingliberal]

181. Wish I could rec that 100 times over.

So much easier to focus on the spendthrifts than talk about reversing the 30 year war on workers. Then again, I don't think it's the wage slaves we're talking to, here.

[Pithlet]

183. Just live simpler. WTF is that supposed to mean, anyway?

What does that mean when the number one reason for bankruptcies is medical bills, for example? Yeah, people in my socio-economic level could do things to live simpler. Sure. But they aren't the ones hurting for the most part. It makes me grind my teeth when others just point and say "live more simple!" as if that would would some panacea. What would they cut, exactly? Those who buy the right wing talking points and point at the victims burn my ass. Yeah, are there irresponsible people. Sure there are. Human beings are flawed. There always have been and there always will be irresponsible people. There's nothing we can do about that. But are they responsible for our shrinking middle class? No! Stop watching Fox news, people!

[DeschutesRiver]

182. Good thing I am not a betting woman

If you don't believe what I say next, just look up my posting history, and that should answer it.

At present I live in a rural ranching community (most of the last decade), and I have watched almost every rancher and working class person in my neighborhood struggle now for their very existence. In a way that I am guessing even you might find unimaginable. There are some homes here and there in about a 15 mile radius that are vacation homes of affluent people, from mildly so and on other people's money, to one billionaire. Do you know what life is like where people work the land and livestock for a living? Out here, there is a saying that these people have nothing, but at least poverty with a view. Some are not struggling - do you know why? Because their lives have never been anything but work dawn until dusk, and what you'd probably call a threadbare existence. They are not feeling the deprivations as much, because they've never had any other kind of existence other than a brutal struggle to survive. I know a woman who is an accountant - she tells me that her life has been so hard, that she welcomes death (having just lost her husband recently). The neighborhood is not affluent in the slightest. Farriers, ranch hands, grocery clerks, concrete setter, a few scattered vacation homes, ranchers (not the affluent kind, though there are those in the region for sure, and I know them too).

Because of my profession, and my travels and my hobbies, I run into all kinds of people, up and down the west coast. From poverty all the way up to wealth that you've read about and people you've all bitched about on DU even. I grew up working class, in a semi rural area, and also have relatives from poor to moderately well off (a small minority, and some are in another country). I talk to everyone I meet, no boundaries except for intolerance or closed minds.

And for the last time, do understand what I said. I was discussing the subset of boomers who were spendaholics and who in my view caused their own ruin with their need for material toys. I do not care if they are the majority or the minority - if others do, let them start a thread on it. I merely stated that I dislike with a passion those who behaved that way. And I am not in the slightest bit interesting in biting at any bait that is designed to add others to that group, because they don't belong in the point that I was making.

The attempt to paint with a broad brush is not what I did, but what others are still attempting to do - when I step back and look at it, it is most amazing.

[Pithlet]

184. Then do understand that your post was very poorly worded. And you are being very stubborn

that you won't accept it. All these people are wrong and you are right?

And I'm sorry, but your living simple crap screams affluence. You're an anomoly then.

[DeschutesRiver]

185. My mother used to say

if everyone else jumps off the damned cliff, are you going to do it to? And then there was some followup about lemmings.

Honest to god, though, your response gave me a giggle - I am not used to hearing that sort of lecture/scolding thing about being too stubborn to accept the judgment handed down by the majority, except from republican types (and I know you aren't one). Really. Or my mother.

My "simple crap screams affluence". Is there ever a time you say something like that to someone else who has answered your question, and wonder what you were thinking when you acted like that in response? Nothing bad happens to your argument (point of view) if I am not affluent, really, so being insulting probably wasn't necessary.

For the record, I am probaby the biggest and fiercest damned anomaly you could ever meet in real life. It isn't a bad thing at all; it is the single biggest piece of luck I ever had.

[Pithlet]

187. Oh brother.

Yeah, you're right then. There's no shrinking middle class. There's just perfect you. Everyone else is wrong. That's what's wrong with the world! What was I thinking.

[DeschutesRiver]

188. Not my argument, but would make a great thread - maybe tomorrow.

I've spent time answering responses here, thinking that the responses were made in good faith. But what I keep hearing is some variation of a theme - "nope, I don't care about your explanations - I wish to hold on to my mistaken notion of what I thought I heard you saying. It works better for me."

So stay with that. Seriously, I love a good robust argument, but that isn't what is happening, and it is getting late out here on the west coast, and I have to get up early.

Night.

[Pithlet]

190. Actually, I think you meant what you said.

But you didn't like the heat, and didn't have the guts to stand by it.

Night!

[DeschutesRiver]

191. I still mean exactly what I posted. Nice try, though. nt

[bettyellen]

204. your post is thick with bitterness and broad brushes all around you as irresponsible

you come off as pretty jealous actually , and I have to say if you were disliked then by so many peers and disliked as a "bitch" now- and disliked on this thread (look around genius you've managed to alienate more people) that says way more about you than it does the di reverse group of people who disliked your post. it says more about you that you haven;t learned a single thing from it.
it's interesting you could be holding these views for so Long and be completely unaware that they are RW talking points. how;d you manage to avoid noticing that?

[laughingliberal]

145. Your point is the one being perpetrated by the MSM & corporate powers who are about to attempt the

theft of the payroll taxes we've paid for all these years. The more people believe the selfish, spendthrift boomers are 'mostly' to blame, the easier it is to watch the country screw us because, after all, it's our own fault. And those 'few' who really tried and weren't spendthrifts...well, all wars have collateral damage.

[DeschutesRiver]

155. Okay, now I get it

there was an agenda to this that had nothing to do with what I said directly, but was my post was handy to tag it on to.

Got it.

[laughingliberal]

167. It had everything to do with what you said. And there certainly is an agenda behind those selling

the selfish, spendthrift boomer meme. The agenda is the same as it always is when one group is being demonized-making it acceptable to cast them away like so much garbage because, after all, they deserve it. You have bought into the propaganda based on some people you know. I doubt you know many of the people who have had to live like I have. But you would paint us with the same brush.

[Pithlet]

163. I hardly think it's equally valid. Your "caricature" is a minority.

The vast majority of the 47% are not your caricature. And your poorly worded post didn't even come close to making it look like they were the minority they are. That is why a great many DUers took offense. I know if I were coming into a thread on a sensitive issue about a group that was a minority, I would take great pains to make it clear I was talking about a minority. Particularly if I knew there were people in my presence who fell in a category that was possibly suffering and take care I didn't offend.

[myrna minx]

169. LL, all I have is a

:hug:

[laughingliberal]

176. Thank you, so much for that.

:hug:

You have no idea how much that helps.

[Bluebear]

37. >Now, among the peer group, I am the bitch< . . . stop right there.

No argument.

[laughingliberal]

39. +1000 nt

[DeschutesRiver]

111. If that makes me a bitch, then I am totally cool with that.

If you support the specific type of person I described in my post as offensive, and think people who call out excess and have no sympathy for such things are bitches, then that is me for sure.

[Lost4words]

49. there are some people who are so culeless, its amazing

these are the haters the mud slingers, the better than thou clan who somehow believe they are better humans. With them the DLC has a bright future.

[CTyankee]

51. I was frugal too but I MUST have my SS.

I have savings and an inheritance but it is just enough to keep my paying my bills...no extras. I don't need a big wardrobe or a big entertainment budget. I just need to keep my old car going, all my bills paid and insurance. It's a bit of a problem right now...

[DeschutesRiver]

118. It is a huge problem

I don't live other than simply right now. And the way things are going, it isn't a simple matter any more.

I just have had it up to my eyeballs with a certain type of Boomer who lived in excess and now is not happy with how that is turning out. And it does effect the rest of society, ie part of the reason that SS is being threatened is in some part because of this particular brand of excess. There are lots of other reasons as well, but the kind of Boomer that I am referring to is also part of the larger problem we face now.

[Go2Peace]

142. No, it has little to do with your stereotype

It was not the non-frugal foolish people. Despite the *minority* that you like to describe, they still put lots of money into the SS system. The problem is the rich have concentrated access to the wealth, that is the primary component of what is busting the system, and they have been using our government to pillfer more money through corporations.

You can make all the arguments about people who are not as frugal as you, but that doesn't change what really happened. And your stereotypes are part of the problem. We have to face up to the real issues to solve them. Thanks for bringing a few of those nice Republican talking points into the discussion. We know all about them.

I am sure you also believe the Fox explaination of the mortgage mess too?

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

171. How in the hell is how any Boomer lived threatening SS? We all, spendthrifts or not, paid

the increased FICA taxes for the past 3 decades that took care of the generations before us and created a huge surplus in the trust fund to cover for when we retired. It was used to pay for the tax cuts for the wealthy and keep funding wars and corporate welfare. Not one part of what's wrong with SS has anything to do with how any baby boomers lived.

[bettyellen]

232. they aren't, but the poster would like everyone to believe it just because of personal animosity

they are spouting gibberish

[MerryBlooms]

59. Wow, that's the highest horse I've ever seen

A lot of us did what was right - saved, invested, planned and then 'poof'. Spouse is diagnosed with ocular melanoma - dies less than a year later. Three years later, almost killed in a car accident 3.3 mil paid out between insurance and cashed in retirement and is still paying medical bills 5 years following the accident and on the cusp of losing my home now. I never thought in a million years I'd be in the position I am today - we were supposed to be taking early retirement and living the good life by 2011.

I hope you're able to continue on that comfortable stable road ... it's what all of us dream of or had in our grasp and had torn away.

Be well and live the dream.

[DeschutesRiver]

99. Please read my post and don't knee jerk

Does my description of a certain type of boomer who spent money they didn't have on toys they had to have describe your situation? You either didn't read it, or just jumped to a conclusion not supported by what I said.

What happened to you, and that could happen to any of us, is clearly not what I was posting about. It appears that most responders to my post are so into their own situations, that not one of them read for content. I wish you well, but then again, the situation I clearly described was something different.

[noamnety]

133. It was pretty clear what you were thinking:

"I hadn't expected that 53% of us had actually not acted like asses."


Another person might look at the 47% who haven't been able to save hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the 53% who were able to save hundreds of thousands, and draw different conclusions about which are more likely to have acted like asses during their life.

[MerryBlooms]

233. I apologize for offending you

Yes, my reaction was definitely knee jerky. Some things hit closer to home than others and the reason for that is a lot of people in situations similar to mine, have been knee jerked judged and dehumanized. The assumption of many, even in these 'modern' times, condemned me because they thought I was a single mom. omg, the backtracking and embarrassment when they found out I was a widow ... it truly was disgusting. Like somehow a single mom is beneath a widow. It truly was bizarre and anger inducing. I got the same anger inducement from your comment. I try my very best to not assume or judge people, but I failed miserably responding to your post. Once again, please accept my apology.

I really did mean what I said - live the dream and enjoy, that wasn't snark.

[Ikonoklast]

80. I don't even know where to start on your smug self-righteousness.

You have been lucky, nothing more.


There have been many of us that worked hard, played by the rules, lived within our means, and tried to save for our retirement, but got hammered by this funny thing called 'Life', that sometimes throws a curveball at all our best plans.


Call me a spendaholic, and I'll call you a sanctimonious jerk.

[DeschutesRiver]

101. Call me a sanctimonious jerk and I'll call you someone who

must not have have been able to curb your need to be judgmental before you could read my post for content.

There is a type of boomer who spent recklessly, with other people's money, and laughed at you and me for all of our hard work, our living within our means, our playing by the rules. That is the person who pisses me off, and for whom I have no sympathy.

For the rest of us, all we did was try, and for some it worked, and for others it did not, and for no other reason than fate. Of course I have complete sympathy for the shit life throws at us, as I have experienced some of it.

But sympathy for the boomers who I think do give boomers a bad name by their greed and over-reaching? No, and my post was clear that those people were the subject of my rant. Never mentioned anything else.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

109. I don't know how so many can argue with you...

Just look at the excess McMansions (many now vacant) that are in every town.
Look at all the people that ran out and bought cars when Cash for Clunkers was
offered. We wouldn't be owned by China if what you are saying wasn't true.

[laughingliberal]

119. I have a coupe of step kids in their late 30's and 40's in McMansions. I don't think they're boomers

They're also driving late model vehicles.

[DeschutesRiver]

132. Well, I think this is a tense and frightening time for many people

otherwise, I can't explain why I'd write a post about not feeling sympathy for only those who are victims of their own excess, and yet have people who are completely outside of that group really believe that it was about their situations. Which have zero in common with the excess of which I spoke.

The kind of spendaholic person I am talking about and the kind of excess I saw is everywhere - and discussed on DU all the time. What is extraordinary about these responses are the number of people who are throwing themselves into a category in which they do not belong. And claiming to never have seen greedy people living so far beyond their means for material posssessions that it has thrown our entire society at risk. I am not sure why.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

149. I see it all around me too.

When Reagan launched the war against the middle-class worker, industry in order to recoup when wages were being lowered,
convinced the American Public that credit was the equivalent of cash. The marketing campaign to enslave Americans with debt was less greed
on Americans part than it was indoctrination. Advertising agencies have made billions convincing all of us of the things we can't live without.

People are figuring out the truth and living more simply because of it.

[DeschutesRiver]

170. As for that point, it was indoctrination, a form of brain washing.

I sincerely hope that more people are realizing it and living more simply voluntarily. Reading this thread makes me wonder if that is just a pipe dream. I am not sure some people are capable of thinking for themselves anymore, at this point in time. I've been reading some fairly irrational things, and no longer have a clue as how to respond. Kind of like when I talk to the repub and tea bagger neighbors in my community - there always comes a point where you can't argue with fearful people who have turned their fears into blind hostility and have shut their minds down.

My biggest fear is what will happen when a further collapse of this scheme comes, and there is no credit that people have become accustomed to having to make ends meet. Reagan was one of the worst things to happen to our nation, and that is out of a pretty long list of things over the last few decades.

[MedicalAdmin]

226. It was step one in the plan to recreate a slave class.

Reagan should be sharing the same BBQ spit to roast on in hell as Milton Friedman, IMHO.

Poverty is slavery in many ways. It limits your choices to the point that often there aren't any choices. By taking all the money, by robbing the commons from the poor and emerging poor (formerly known as the middle class), they are trying to recreate a worldwide slave class.

Maybe Robespierre was right, no?

[laughingliberal]

151. What we see is a MSM & corporatocracy pushing the selfish, spendthrift boomer propaganda in

order to build support for their upcoming attempt to steal the SS trust fund. As long as the public believes we are mostly to blame for our desperate finances, no one will care when they do this. Left to eat cat food and sleep on the streets in your old age after working all your life? Tough shit! You should have saved more. That's the message and the goals of the propagandists are clear.

[Ikonoklast]

113. No, you put yourself in the percentage of those in good financial shape.

You then proceeded to disparage the rest of us.

You did not delineate any difference, except that everyone not like you was a spendthrift.


I read exactly what you posted, but I see you are already walking back from it.

[DeschutesRiver]

125. Nope.

Here it is again from my post:

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke.

I was in the group of Boomers who was frugal, put away for a rainy day, put away for retirement and managed the damned thing myself. I was the Boomer that the other boomers made fun of for being so fucking frugal, who was pitied because I didn't have all the toys and bells and whistles. You know, because as one told me, they knew I must be broke and having business problems not to be living the high life as they saw it. But actually, I was probably the only one they knew that was solvent and not living on credit cards and helocs, pretending like that was wealth, instead of one step ahead of debtor's prison in the old days."

Speaking only of spendaholics in the boomer generation. And I'm not interested in walking back from the above statement one bit. Still feel exactly the same about this particular group of people as when I typed it. And nope, it isn't inclusive of everyone else who is taking a hit.

I understand from what I am reading that some people clearly think they are in the above group that I reference, but upon reading their posts, their situation couldn't be more different.

[Ikonoklast]

131. You cannot even see why you are being pilloried here.

Read this aloud to yourself:

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke."



You made yourself clear as mud with that statement.

Why didn't you just state the following:

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are spendaholics, and are now broke."?


Can you see the difference?

As a practicing attorney, you of all people should realize that precise language is important.

[DeschutesRiver]

160. That is your entire argument?

I begin to see the issue and it isn't mine.

[Go2Peace]

144. How many people have to indicate you are out of touch with your attitude

before you finally admit you might have an issue of your own? I don't think I have *ever* seen such unanimity on this site LOL. Think about it. It might not all be everyone else...

[DeschutesRiver]

161. Then we haven't been reading the same threads, evidently

I've seen ill formed arguments like this go on for days.

If peer pressure is the basis of your winning argument, then as I've been suspecting, this group of respondents isn't thinking any more or debating - you guys are just too into your own perspective to consider anything outside of it. Which is entirely fine with me, but not of much point in continuing.

You know, a thousand people could not agree with me, but of what consequence is the sheer number in terms of making a point? Not much.

[laughingliberal]

117. Your post smeared all boomers who can not afford to retire with the same broad brush.

And it was odious and obnoxious just as broad brushed smears always are.

[MedicalAdmin]

227. You are inferring.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. While the post "could" be interpreted the way you said, it could also be interpreted the other way. I choose to give a fellow DU member the benefit of the doubt. You could too, if you chose to.

[PufPuf23]

100. Bad things happen to good people

because of circumstance and idealism (which I would define on the local face to face level as a belief in personal integrity).

I am personally better off than many of our generation but sacrificed much in security by moral principal, acts of nature, and idealism.

You post is so ignorant and offensive I want to barf; I would expect more from some named for the beautiful Deschutes River.

[DeschutesRiver]

104. I am beginning to believe reading isnt in fashion any more at DU

I clearly stated that I had no sympathy for the greedy members of the boomer generation whose wounds are self inflicted.

Can you point out where I said otherwise? And do you really have sympathy for the people whom I was speaking of, the greedy superficial boomer type? whose problems were caused by their own excess?

I have seen many responses that describe situations way different than that, and those were not what I was ranting about in the slightest. How can so many people here believe that their situations are the same as the people of whom I spoke, people who have never known a day of real suffering in their life other than to not be able to buy the latest gadget or material thing?

[laughingliberal]

124. Here's what you said:

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke. "

I see nothing there that acknowledges any of the 47% were anything but spendaholics who deserve what they got.

Enjoy your high horse.

[PufPuf23]

129. You sound like as greedy and grasping Boomer to me

That licked their stamps and pasted them in for their own security.

The greedy superficial Boomers are GOP, rw religious, and Neo-Liberals.

I can read as can others.

[kevinbgoode]

116. What makes you believe that every working boomer

had the luxury of earning enough money to put anything away for a rainy day? Are you one of those who assume that every American, with a little work and frugality, would end up middle class by some magical spell?

I've known people who poured their heart and soul into working for companies that dumped their butts after 15 years - naturally, short of their full retirement benefits. And those people, most with college educations and what used to be marketable skills, scratched and begged for any kind of job to just keep them going. . .often with no benefits at all.

Now how exactly do you "plan" for a "rainy day" that lasts for years while someone searches for employment that pays enough to put food on the table and pay the rent and utilities, without any extra for a rainy day? Or the person with a simple health care problem who makes one trip to the hospital and is strapped to pay the outrageous gouging fees for medical services in our "profit-in-any-manner" possible that they lose everything?

You know,it is one thing to pat yourself on the back for a job well-done, but failure to acknowledge any degree of good fortune is just outrageous. There is some ridiculous myth in this country that every single person can escape being poor, either through education, hard work, frugality, and sacrifice. The truth is there are some people who never get to escape it, even when all of those qualities are part of their character.

There are plenty of people out there who worked hard and who don't have any bells and whistles - and yet are still strapped in retirement, and it isn't because of poor planning - it is because they have no opportunity or the funds to plan at all.

[DeschutesRiver]

120. Here it is, again

"I feel zip sympathy for the other Boomers who are in the 47% that are spendaholics, and are now broke.

I was in the group of Boomers who was frugal, put away for a rainy day, put away for retirement and managed the damned thing myself. I was the Boomer that the other boomers made fun of for being so fucking frugal, who was pitied because I didn't have all the toys and bells and whistles. You know, because as one told me, they knew I must be broke and having business problems not to be living the high life as they saw it. But actually, I was probably the only one they knew that was solvent and not living on credit cards and helocs, pretending like that was wealth, instead of one step ahead of debtor's prison in the old days."

Are you one of the spendaholics of which I was speaking, who lived a life of excess surrounded by toys? If not, then this wasn't about your situation, which is an entirely different point.

[laughingliberal]

126. Yep. That broad brush is just as evident the 2nd time around. nt

[Amonester]

174. A lawyer screwed my father of $500 for a case he ended losing...

because that lawyer never did anything except sending him a $500 bill! He never even DARED to show up in court!

So, I feel zip sympathy for ALL the other lawyers out there since the day that lawyer screwed my father.

How does that feel, uh?

[DeschutesRiver]

179. I was going to bring that up as an example, thanks for reminding me.

I read tons of post here on DU about how nasty lawyers are....how bad the profession is...etc. And why would it bother me in the slightest?

I am a lawyer, right? Do you think that I'd be personally hurt by a story about a bad lawyer? Why? I wasn't a bad lawyer, nor dishonest, so that post has zip to do with me or how I am. And if a person has no sympathy for all lawyers out there because of a bad experience with a dishonest one, can you tell me why that would bother me at all? It has nothing to do with my situation, so it doesn't apply to me. It is an honest reaction by someone who had a bad experience, and while I might be inclined to point out that some lawyers are not like that, if the person feels that way, it is a valid feeling. But it is their valid feeling, which is no reflection upon me at all, and thus not hurtful.

In fact, I practiced long enough to know some simply skanky lawyers - attorneys whose behavior is despicable. I don't identify with them, so someone else relating a story about how nasty a lawyer is isn't likely to be hurtful at all. Some of them are in fact just as bad as they are said to be; others are good. This business here on this thread about everything being black and white with no shades of grey is something that I would have more expected from tea bagger types, to be honest. I've found the responses to be a quite a learning lesson - not all rigid thinking comes just from one identity group. So for me, it has been illuminating on that issue.

[Amonester]

189. These 'spendaholics' you despise were just living The American Dream (tm)

You know, the 'You Can Be All You Wanna Be' (tm) marketing plan, or the 'Go Shopping' (tm) stupid 50 years-old RW propaganda.

So why have you bought into that corporate sham? I know the corporate media is damn powerful, but...

By the way, the banksters and ponzi-schemers on Wall Street also where living The American Dream (tm) and they screwed up, defrauded 298 millions of American Dream (tm) believers in their idiocies, but hey, you know what? Not only they got off scott-free, but many of 'em crooks got even RICHER (obscenely Richer)!

Why is that those who bought into the American Dream (tm) lie who were not banksters have to be considered scum by you and your peers?

What about the Real bankstering bandits? Because they can afford to pay their lawyers?

I'm curious to know. Why?

Thanks.

[Mariana]

135. I understand exactly what you mean.

But it's certainly not limited to boomers! They're in every age group.

My brother-in-law (an Xer, not a boomer) is living that way now. More than a quarter million a year salary and he spends it all and then borrows more and spends that too, year after year after year. No hard times, no unemployment, no health problems, no divorce, no kids. Just extravagance. He's only 42 and he hates his job and he won't give it up because he'd have to take a cut in pay. Then he might have to do awful, horrible stuff like fly coach instead of first class and rent a home that's only near the beach and not on it.

[DeschutesRiver]

178. I know.

I mentioned a bit in my post about Gen-xrs, but it probably got lost in the noise of everyone mistaking themselves as excess driven Boomers:)

I guess unless someone has seen this kind of thing up close and personal, it is hard to imagine what I am seeing, and easier to try to relate it to something more familiar. But like your BIL - that is the sort of thing I was talking about. And whether it is the majority or the minority of people out there is irrelevant to my point. Which is how can I have sympathy for a person who has such fortune, yet behaves that way, and then worse, whines about the supposed suffering they are subject to? I just can't work up an ounce of pity for his (or others) plights, under those circumstances.

[Heywood J]

212. Yeah. All it takes is one asshole partner

to screw that up for you and put you down a hole you won't clime out of for decades. And it's all perfectly legal in most cases for one spouse to do this to the other.

But I guess that doesn't sit well with you. After all, one can always pay a fancy lawyer $400/hr for a divorce after the mortgage money has been flushed down the toilet by the other spouse.

[Zoeisright]

215. What sanctimonious, self-serving crap.

Shame on you. You have no idea what other people are going through, and you judge them because you think they 'buy crap'? Go blow yourself, you smug prig.

[anarch]

14. hell, I don't have enough to pay the bills half the time

Retire? I think I can probably get by for maybe 4 or 5 years on my current "retirement savings", unless the value my wonderful 401k is reduced due to some kind of stock market craziness. Granted, I'm not anywhere close to retirement age, but I was pretty much just planning on working until I die. Unless suicide centers start popping up in all our urban areas, and then they can make some Soylent Green out of me once I'm incapable of toiling away for my masters. "Retire". Hah.

[noamnety]

16. I look forward to

all the posts in this thread blaming the poor for being poor, and reminding us that those with money have it because they are just superior people, whereas people in poverty are stupid and irresponsible.

[Binka]

23. You Are In Luck!

Just read a few threads up and VOILA!

[branders seine]

22. don't worry, change is coming.

Once the change is complete, we serfs will be expected to work ourselves to death anyway.

[SoCalDem]

24. A comfortable retirement depends on THREE things:

1. a paid off home
2. no debt
3. good health

Even without a hefty pension, most boomers (or any retiree) could live okay if they did not have to spend their money on rent/mortgage, credit card payments and expensive meds.

This was the reason behind the "30-yr mortgage".... a house bought at age 30, would be paid off at 60, leaving 5 years to save money to add to a comfortable retirement. "Modern" would-be-homeowners used their homes for an ATM and withdrew equity, so the only way to "pay it off", is to sell it and then what? If you break even at 70 and have no money left, AND you no longer have anyplace to live.
Too many older folks are still saddled with mortgages at a time in their lives when their incomes no longer can support it.

[elocs]

28. I've always adjusted my lifestyle to my income. Retirement will be no different.

I am lucky in only having me to take care of and my needs and wants are very few. I own some stuff, but it does not own me. I am in good health and I am fortunate in that respect, but I have also always taken care of myself.

So I am looking forward to retiring on however little it may be because I can live on very little.

[Buns_of_Fire]

46. Well, ready or not, here I am.

It's not that I WANT to be retired, it just seems to have worked out that way. But I take comfort in knowing that Wall Street is coming along just fine.

[MedicalAdmin]

228. Wall Street should be bulldozed and then burned to the ground.

Purely as a public service of course. I would never advocate violence for violence's sake. But I think we would all breath a little better if control of this country was Main Street rather the WS, don't you?

[newportdadde]

48. It will be 80% by the time my generation tries to retire (33yr old)

Boomers had/have the last real shot at some type of retirement, by the time our generation gets to our 60s I wonder what if anything will even be left, Medicate, SS.. any of it :(. I asked my coworker the other day what was it like to work for a corporation that was doing well and actually adding benefits because I have no idea. In just my 11 years here I've seen a wage freeze, healthcare premiums up 300% and the retirement plan contribution reduced by big chunks. When I think about my own young children... my oldest at six has never even known a world without being in Iraq.. I have no idea what waits for them.

[Go2Peace]

147. so it needs to change. But the problem is not generational

There is more prosperity in the nation and in the world than EVER in HISTORY.

So WHY THE HELL ARE WE ALL GOING AFTER EACH OTHER instead of looking at what is happening? There are PLENTY of resources to make a sane and compassionate society. The trouble is we would all rather fight like hillbillies with each other than go after those who are stealing the nations heritage right out from us.

Amazing that pretty much a SINGLE poster managed to turn this topic right toward the FOX TV argument on a liberal board.

THAT

illistrates what is destroying our wealth and country far more than the conservative viewpoint that triggered the diversion.

[Curmudgeoness]

56. If anyone has tried to determine how much they are "supposed to have

for retirement, you will see that the numbers are unimaginable. Sorry but no one will have as much as they tell you that you will need. And of course, when you are just trying to live, you can never save that amounts they suggest. No win. This is just another of the scare tactics used to keep us afraid.

[spinbaby]

79. Now they're saying a million isn't enough

You're supposed to have two or three million to retire comfortably. We have two 401ks, but have no chance of EVER saving that much.

[Curmudgeoness]

82. Exactly. That was my experience with a retirement calculator.

And jeez, I haven't made a million in all the years I have worked combined. Of course, any savings earn next to nothing, so where are we supposed to get this money??? I'll got get a lottery ticket.

[spinbaby]

197. Exactly

Telling you you need millions when you make a tiny fraction of that puts retirement savings into bizarro land. I save 12% of my salary in a 401k. I'm getting next to no returns and calculate I'll have to work another 130 years to hit that first million.

[Go2Peace]

157. All this is bullshit. Our currency could collapse, it is based on nothing

It is best to save. But even so, the best protection is a compassionate and caring populous. Communities that work together. It's amazing that we have been sold an idea of "community" that would never last in anything but a materialistic economy.

The reality is that the "rugged individualist" in this topic that likes to claim he is not materialist is completely dependant on materialism to survive, because there is no other structure holding up the worth of that money he has put away, and the money that he saved came from the same people that are being decried.

I am not supporting materialism. Far from it.

[Fast Dude]

58. Here is one that doesn't have enough.

Probably never will have enough.

[DCBob]

63. Hardly surprising.. we boomers spend way too much, have way too much debt and live too long.

Many of us will end up old and broke.

[marions ghost]

72. so let's all get together

and flagellate ourselves??? Especially for the sin of "living too long."

[DCBob]

73. I didnt mean to suggest its a "sin".. its simply the result of better healthcare, nutrition, etc.

But the end result will not be a good situation.. for many of us.

[Go2Peace]

159. There is more wealth per capita in the world than EVER in history

Which nobody will ever mention on that glowing tube.

Truth is this period is actually part of the most prosperous years the world has ever seen, but yet amongst incredible wealth we are already fighting for survival, in pretty much every country on the globe.

So what does that say about the true nature of what the world is experiencing? Even with this "Recession/Depression" there is far more total wealth by leaps and bounds in the world than 20 years ago.

[MedicalAdmin]

229. +1

Great point.

The money is there. We just need to go and get it. If enough of us get together then I would pity the politician who got in the way.

Imagine for a moment - it's late at night and John Boner comes out of his house to a polite knock on the door and as far as he can see to the horizon in all directs are totally silent people just standing and staring at him. The door knocker then quietly requests that he stop working for the corporations or the crowd will return and not be so polite the next time.

And as long as I'm dreaming, I may as well get that lottery ticket.

[Curmudgeoness]

75. "We" all did not spend too much or go into debt too much.

But that doesn't mean we have ever been given the luxury of saving massive amounts of money. Living gets in the way. And incomes have not been moving up enough to cover cost of living. This means more money just to survive. And a little nest egg is just enough to get you through bumps in the road. And we all end up with bumps.

[laughingliberal]

93. Exactly! nt

[rzemanfl]

74. I know a self-employed professional who is about to turn 64.

Every year he put the maximum allowable amount into a 401(k) which is now worth less than what he put in it over the years. Except for the tax savings, he would have been better off burying the money in his yard in Mason jars.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

77. Boomers need to share housing and expenses.

If the kids are gone, think about sharing with another boomer couple. Share the food expenses, the driving, the utilities, etc.

Find a way to allow for privacy AND community.

[Go2Peace]

173. That is good advice.

I have been considering an alternative community life. But so far most of them are still stuck in the same trap, with "co-housing" units being as expensive or more expensive than a regular home.

Hopefully that will change in coming years. The sustainable community movement needs to move out of the yuppie stage and start creating smaller, inexpensive, and affordable options.

I would love to buy a larger house together with someone else and create a modified structure to split it into two living spaces. But I haven't had the right opportunity yet. Most people don't think in those terms yet.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

208. I often fantasize about a little commune of our friends and family

I have a tiny but close circle and I hope we hang together as we age. I would be more than happy to share housing with any of them. I think we have different ideas about where to do it however. I think about perhaps buying a duplex with my brother. My mother's 3 siblings all live together in their nineties in one house! Their combined incomes pay for everything and they are able to pay for some outside assistance for shopping, driving, etc.

Our closest friends speak of retiring in Mexico to an expat community because the dollar goes farther. I guess that could be adventurous and fun, but I keep pointing out to them that all the stuff they are looking at keeps stressing "safety" and "security". If safety and security is stressed to the max, it lets you know that it must be "unsafe" and "unsecure" right outside the gates.

[MedicalAdmin]

230. But some people do think in those terms.

Advertise and CL and find them.

My wife and I used to live in a shared intentional community house (yes, on the west coast). The place was big enough to feel alone in sometimes and small enough to feel connected. We had regular house meetings and shared all chores. It was a normal house with a bigger than normal kitchen (2 fridges, 2 stoves, 2 ovens) and a huge deck.

It was a great experience.

[WinkyDink]

209. You first.

[Greyhound]

78. After Clinton, Idiot Frat Boy, and state government refusing to prosecute crimes,

I've gone from almost a millionaire to completely destitute.

Everybody I know over the age of 40 has also had to draw down or cash-in their retirement accounts, and so are in under the same bus with me.

[G_j]

95. This does mean an ever growing homeless population.

I don't think we're prepared for what's coming.

[Greyhound]

166. No, we're not.

I suppose in the grand scheme this could end up well by getting so bad that people will wake up and see who is doing this to them, but it sucks on the ground.

[WinkyDink]

98. "No matter their income level"?? Patently absurd.

[Statistical]

214. Income doesn't equal wealth.

I did tax returns at one time. Lots of people with very high income have essentially no assets.
If you make $150,000 a year but live a $170,000 lifestyle to keep up with the Jones you will always be behind.

You would be surprised the number of "rich" (looking only at income) people who have an inability to prevent torrents of cash from slipping between their fingers.

[HughBeaumont]

108. It's to the point where one's life absolutely cannot have any landmines if you hope to retire.

Retirement is now a luxury that soon only the select lucky will be able to experience.

[county worker]

123. So funny. We are told we have too many entitlements. They slash wages, health care, pensions then

tell us we should have saved for retirement!

[laughingliberal]

128. Exactly. nt

[flamingdem]

154. Don't worry we're all going to end up lovin' and livin' in COMMUNES! nt

[flamingdem]

156. Or we can have group DIE-INS, with acid and pot and Strawberry Alarm Clock on loud nt

[Hannah Bell]

186. why is this surprising? 1/3 of SS recipients depend on it for 100% of their retirement income; 2/3

for half or more of their retirement income.

[raouldukelives]

192. Sounds like Wall St. wants more 401 money

Invest more now! BP will thank you later!

[Daphne08]

198. I cannot believe some of the comments I'm reading on this

thread.

[End Of The Road]

199. The mods ought to quickly lock any thread with Boomer in the title

Jeez, what hatred these threads bring out.

[HughBeaumont]

200. What I'm being told now is that our generation (X) is likely to NEVER retire.

It's either being explained to us in two ways. The first way is flat-out honesty: we'll likely never be able to save the money needed because our wages will likely never match our cost needs. The second way is even more odious: that retirement is "overrated" and an "active lifestyle is needed to combat the depression and medical issues that come with old age" and "our minds need to stay fresh". In other words, the "positive thinking" fluff they've been trying to foist on us while they stagnate our salaries and fire us en masse.

What it all boils down to for us is that by the time we're supposed to be saving and investing money, no one ever told us that the very act of making a living will likely drain you of all that extra cash. You know, unless you live in a cramped hovel and live on Kraft Mac and Cheese for 20 years. By the time we're supposed to amass a decent sum of money, none of us have a dime. And it's all . . . "our fault".

That's why these financial self-help books gall me to no end, but somehow they still sell; the plans they have drawn up usually depend on the right circumstances. There can never be layoffs. There can never be triple digit emergencies or repairs at the start of the savings. There can never be a major illness. You have to buy the right house. You have to live on the extreme cheap. You must get a 8-11% return each and every year without fail. You must put away at least 100 to 200 dollars away every month and compound it.

We've been sold a moldy bill of goods.

The Boomers were allowed to retire, but as they've seen, it's not at all comfortable. Many are postponing retirement and still working because their bills and medical expenses are too high and their wages haven't matched the skyrocketing cost of living. That's why it only applied to those who . . . had no landmines. It appears that having no landmines is becoming a lottery in itself.

I think the WWII generation was the last generation that was allowed to retire comfortably, and the reason for that is that they were the last generation which had a reasonable cost of living with a wage to match. They were the last to have a reasonable tax structure to assure a boring, smooth economic flow of consumption and production rather than the boom, BUBBLE, CRASH casino economics we've been nailed with. They weren't, for the most part, affected by Asia or Europe, because they were either in a state of rebuilding or still backwater third-worlds with no modernization. They had pensions and benefits guaranteed, whereas now the corporate leaders shifted all responsibility for our investments and medical needs on us.

Unless we do something to reign in corporate irresponsibility, we'll probably never see what our fathers and grandfathers got to see. I'm dreadfully afraid that we're going to have a glut of educated young people working lousy jobs or living at home for a long time because they'll never make it out of the starting gate.

[Curmudgeoness]

202. Don't believe all that you are told. "They" are trying to condition you

to accept it. Don't accept it. You know that the longer and more frequently things are said, the more these things become truth---even when they aren't. Just live life, do the best you can, and whatever is, is.

[marions ghost]

203. well said

and the points you make demonstrate why Boomers, Gen X and younger all need to stick TOGETHER, and not let the insidious forces of greed and exploitation DIVIDE us. And as we can see from this thread, those forces are out there.... :mad:

"Casino economics" = absolutely! Those who hit the landmines...ouch! Sorry, you're dead. x(

[Statistical]

213. You don't need 11% a year every year without fail.

What matters is the long term average. However you do need to save more than $100 a month.

Saving 10% of your income (including any employer matches) is a good starting point. Most pension plans put aside about 5% of your income into the plan so if you have a pension and think it is likely you will collect you could consider that 5% as half your savings.

10% every month you are employed. No matter what. It seems crazy but it is more than doable. I have done it for so long it simply is a "bill" like the mortgage or auto payment. It isn't an optional thing, or a thing I do when I have a little left over. Eventually you get use to the idea that your "income" is 90% of your after tax income.

So if I get a $5,000 pay raise I really got a $4,500 pay raise and adjust my budget off the lower number (actually less than that because I look at post-tax income). That means living in a smaller house than my peers, driving an older vehicle, not buying new clothes every year, taking a vacation less, etc.

As an example:
Our bank qualified us for a $580,000 loan with 5% down. We bought a $260,000 one with 20% down and our realtor asked like we were the most insane people she had ever met. H

It simply isn't negotiable. 10% every month for 4 decades. Get rich slow.

[ecstatic]

205. I've been begging my mom to start saving

She just says she'll die before she needs the money. She is doing well enough now to begin saving money but she and my dad just spend spend spend thinking they won't be around. So basically I'm going to be responsible if they end up penniless.

[Dawgs]

206. That low? Wow! I would expect that # to be a lot higher.

Still not good news.

[mmonk]

207. Let us eat cake. If we are not wealthy by now, it is our fault. We should live

in poverty the rest of our lives and hopefully die. Corporations are all that matter. We are undeserving leeches that can't contribute to campaign coffers nor serve any useful purpose for our corporate lords and masters.

[flamingdem]

211. You got that right, some people will never learn, on your knees! nt

[blueworld]

222. Did you see the punch line on the "Today Show"?

They have a very sweet, intelligent young woman who gives financial advice & when they mentioned this study she wanted to give us geezers hope. She said it's not too late, we just have to increase our savings. I was laughing so hard I almost slid off m'rocker. :rofl:

[TwilightGardener]

223. Well, one big wave can swamp the boat--illness, divorce, job loss, etc. There are

probably many right now who have no savings/retirement plan at all, or have negative net worth. I'm actually surprised that it's less than half who are short on funds--after the economic collapse, I would have thought it would have been the majority who don't have enough to retire.

[spooky3]

231. You got that right. Add to that people who have lost money on houses

or have a child with a disability.

I've been fortunate enough not to be without work for long periods of time and have always had employers who put aside $ as I have, and we still have far less than the Wall Street gurus say we should have. The main reason: look at the Bush devastation to the stock market, where these funds were invested for nearly the entire 2000 decade. Those accounts should have earned 8% per year, but they earned about 1% a year. And states are now cutting back on promised pensions because they didn't get good enough returns either (that's one reason).