American Mormon church injects itself into Argentina's battle for same-gender marriage

[Bluebear]

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Mormon church leaders have restated the faith's unequivocal position against gay marriage in a letter to members in Argentina, where the government is debating whether to legalize gay unions.

"The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely clear: Marriage is between one man and woman and is ordained of God," said the July 6 letter from church President Thomas S. Monson.

A copy of the letter and its English translation began circulating over the weekend on websites for former Mormons.

Church spokeswoman Kim Farah on Monday confirmed the letter was sent to local leaders in Argentina, where the faith has more than 371,000 members, according to a 2010 church almanac. The country's population is more than 41 million.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAY_MARRIAGE_MORMONS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[KurtNYC]

1. Don't THEY mean "one man and 12 females,

ages 11 and up" ?

The Mormons defining marriage is like Crispy Creme defining healthy food.

[Bluebear]

2. 'The Mormons defining marriage is like Crispy Creme defining healthy food.'

OK....

:spray:

[truebrit71]

14. ROFL!!!

:rofl:

[Soylent Brice]

24. ZING!

[Gormy Cuss]

80. May I use that as my new sig?

:applause:

[KurtNYC]

90. I would be honored.

[jody]

3. Is that position the same as Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant denominations? n/t

[Bluebear]

5. What's the point? Are the Lutherans down in Argentina campaigning too? :)

[jody]

8. Just pointing out a fact to those who would disparage Mormon church leaders for a position held by

denominations who claim to represent nearly 100% of Christians world wide.

Note I used "denominations" and not members of those denominations.

[Bluebear]

10. Yeah, mustn't disparage the Mormon church leaders. Busybodies.

[jody]

12. LOL just my plea for equal criticism for all organized groups that oppose same-sex marriage. n/t

[Bluebear]

16. I don't know why you are pleading for that when it is the Mormons that are the story's subject.

Really. Why are you trying to drive the conversation to Muslims and Protestants when it is the Mormon church again actively trying to derail a proposed civil law?

[jody]

22. I'll plead for equal criticism as I see fit. That's the wonderful thing about internet forums. n/t

[FreeState]

20. The OP is a news article on the LDS Church - not others

sure they all deserve criticism but the article is about the LDS Church - its a stretch to insist posters condemn everyone on when discussing the topic of LDS involvement in the denial of civil rights to GLBT families.

[jody]

27. LOL who appointed you censor for posts on DU? n/t

[FreeState]

33. Im pointing out your the one insisting the others be condemned

Nice spin. Are you LDS?

[jody]

39. Please quote my statement "insisting the others be condemned". Seems like you have an agenda and are

trying to twist my words to fit your intent.

[FreeState]

43. Yeah read up - you didn't use the word condemned

I should have said you wanted to deflect criticism and wanted to point out over and over that others have the same belief (which Im pretty sure 99% of posters here already know) and then when questioned on why you got defensive.

so are you LDS? Im gay and (former) LDS.

[jody]

52. Oh, so I didn't use the word "condemned", you merely reinterpreted my intent. How prescient of you.

[FreeState]

53. So are you going to answer my question?

Are you LDS?

[jody]

55. LOL at your question that has nothing to do with #3. n/t

[FreeState]

56. It has to do with your motivation in this thread - welcome to ignore n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. I sympathize with the sentiment, but remember you can't alert on ignored posts. -nt

[Bluebear]

72. #67 did it for me.

I had to ignore too. Wadda kook.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. I understand you completely. Maybe I just have a strong stomach for stupidity.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BileFascination

[Bluebear]

77. LMAO

[FreeState]

21. Dupe n/t

[Radical Activist]

If you were going to single out one denomination

the Southern Baptists have put far more effort into the anti-gay marriage propositions nationally. The Mormons were just dumb enough to do it in California where GLBT advocates are much better organized than in the South.

[jody]

41. Agree. n/t

[FreeState]

42. Actually the LDS Church has a long history of interfering with Civil Rights

http://boise.backpage.com/LegalServices/lds-church-had-consistent-strategy-to-fight-same-sex-marriage-dating-back-more-than-two-decades/1424246

Ever since Proposition 8 passed last November, leaders involved with the No on 8 campaign have insisted they were unaware of the role of the Mormon Church in trying to eliminate same-sex marriage rights. No on 8 officials were also caught unaware until after campaign finance reports released last October showed that proponents of Prop 8 received a windfall of contributions from members of the Mormon Church.

But documents unearthed by the Bay Area Reporter show that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has had a consistent strategy to fight same-sex marriage that dates back more than two decades.

A not-so-secret history

Along with the 1997 LDS internal memo describing the Mormon's political same-sex marriage strategy for California and Hawaii, reported on by the B.A.R. late last year, the B.A.R. has discovered two 11-year-old documents authored by Utah State University professor Richley Crapo, Ph.D., which describe the genesis of the church's HLM (defined by Crapo as "Homosexual Lesbian Marriage") strategy.

While the Mormon leadership had no difficulty passing the nation's first state defense of marriage act in Utah in 1995, they found their earlier efforts in Hawaii more difficult, according to Crapo's document, "Chronology of Mormon/LDS Involvement In Same-Sex Marriage Politics."

Crapo's timeline begins in 1988 when the LDS, under then-President Gordon B. Hinckley, hired the marketing firm Hill and Knowlton to "monitor and promote the church's stance on gay issues in state legislatures and the U.S. Congress."

Crapo, who is straight and Mormon, explained that when three same-sex couples sued the state of Hawaii for the right to marry in December 1990, in a case known as Baehr v. Miike , the Mormons already had Hill and Knowlton on payroll for two years helping to develop the HLM strategy.

On May 5, 1993, the same day that the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled in favor of the same-sex couples' right to marry, LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer gave an address at a meeting of the All-Church Coordinating Council that called homosexuality one of the three major social problems that represent a danger to members, according to Crapo. Packer said the other two perceived "dangers" to the Mormon Church were "feminism and intellectuals," according to Will Carlson, Equality Utah's chief lobbyist....

[Radical Activist]

45. I'm not sure why you think that contradicts my statement.

I'm not making excuses for the Mormon church. But the Southern Baptists have done far more harm in many more states. The difference is that GLBT advocates are less organized and it gets lets national attention when it happens in places like Arkansas and Tennessee.

The Southern Baptists are more overtly political but they know how to get away with it. The Mormon effort was clumsy and amateurish, which is why they're in legal trouble.

[FreeState]

47. I believe the LDS Church has done more than the baptists

The LDS Church has been involved in every state that has denied gay families civil rights. Thats not true of the baptists (as far as I know).

[Radical Activist]

54. Well, I lived in the South

so my perspective is a little different. I see how the SBC dominates the politics of more states than Mormons do. I saw how the gay marriage proposition on the Arkansas 2004 ballot changed the election in that state. The same happened in nearly every Southern state. The SBC operates under the radar in states where the national press and most progressive organizations have no idea what's really going on. So most people don't have enough information to make a fair comparison. What happened in CA was small potatoes compared to what the SBC has done in many more states for over a decade.

[FreeState]

58. I have a feeling its state by state then

The LDS Church has been at the forfrunt in Hawaii, WA, CA, OR, ID, UT, AR, AK etc. So it may be were both seeing things from different experiences :) Ether way both and all should be ashamed

[vanbean]

59. They're just doing their job.

Being shits.

[Bluebear]

62. +

[FreeState]

7. Bigotry based on religion is still bigotry n/t

[jody]

9. Agree with you and denominations claiming to represent nearly 100% of Christians worldwide oppose

same-sex marriage as I believe do Islamic groups.

[Bluebear]

11. What Islamic group is going to Argentina to influence the election?

[jody]

15. Do you really believe the Mormon Church can influence Argentina's election? n/t

[FreeState]

17. LDS make up 2% of CA and gave 77% of all money Yes on 8 raised

edit for link

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=41338

Mormons Bankroll Anti–Gay Marriage Amendments in California, Arizona
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has mobilized followers to give an estimated 77% of the total donations that have come in to support California's proposed gay marriage ban, Proposition 8. Californians Against Hate released figures Tuesday showing that $17.67 million was contributed by 59,000 Mormon families since August to groups like Yes on 8. Contributions in support of Prop. 8 total $22.88 million.


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has mobilized followers to give an estimated 77% of donations to support California's proposed marriage ban.

Californians Against Hate released figures Tuesday showing that $17.67 million was contributed by 59,000 Mormon families since August to groups like Yes on 8. Contributions in support of Prop. 8 total $22.88 million. Additionally, the group reports that Mormons have contributed $6.9 million to pass a a similar law, Proposition 102, in Arizona.

"It is a staggering amount of money and an even more staggering percentage of the overall campaign receipts," Fred Karger of Californians Against Hate said in a press release. "The Mormon Church, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, has hijacked the campaigns in both California and Arizona, where voters face constitutional amendments to end same-sex marriage."

[Bluebear]

18. They surely influenced California's election. What's your agenda here?

[jody]

23. Didn't African-Americans vote against same-sex marriage in CA? Do you contend the Mormon Church had

that much influence on the African-American vote?

[FreeState]

25. 57% voted Yes on 8 - stop the race bating please n/t

[Bluebear]

29. I think some big Mormon gay nerve was hit here.

How else to explain this foolishness? :rofl:

[FreeState]

34. Im stumped... its mind boggling n/t

[Bluebear]

36. Early cocktail hour? Alabama LDS church outreach coordinator?

:shrug:

[FreeState]

37. LOL - that must be a new calling they give:) n/t

[jody]

38. OK 57% voted Yes on 8 but that "Yes" was for "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or

recognized in California."

[Bluebear]

26. Race-baiting now? LOL. I can't play this anymore so you'll have to play with yourself.

[jody]

31. Facts are pesky things aren't they when they destroy unsupported assertions. n/t

[Bluebear]

35. It's SUPPORTED by the NEWS ARTICLE. Something's wrong with you.

[jody]

50. It's amazing how some believe a religious group with 14 million or another with 12 million members

can have so much power over nearly 7 billion people as apparently they believe of Jews and Mormons.

[Bluebear]

51. 'as apparently they believe of Jews and Mormons' - blah blah blah

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Wait, you're implying Catholic and Protestant fundies get a pass here?

Jesus H. Christ on a pink, yellow-polkadotted, nuclear-powered pogo stick.

[Sheepshank]

68. 12,000,000

is a made up number. It includes almost all of those inactive and couldn't care less to remove their names from church records, they just quit going. that accounts for more than 30% of that number.....in South American the inactive rate is 70% within one year of conversion. That 12,000,000 also includes dead people that have not been confirmed as dead...upto age 100. So sick and tired of the push to inflate Mormon popularity. I do believe the mormons are playing the same game we see the Tea Partiers throwing. Using media to gain the false sense of 'bigness'.

[jody]

78. Agree that some/many/most denominations have no idea how many members they have that are active and

even less about the number who seriously practice their doctrine.

I wonder if those who identify as Muslims are more serious about practicing their faith than Christians?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Maybe not, but they're trying. Your point is?

[Bluebear]

63. well, that apparently ended that!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

64. He has me on ignore. Too many posts of mine that "ended that", I guess.

As you so eloquently put. :hi:

[Ernesto]

13. works for me nt

[Bluebear]

91. +

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. Yes. If they send meddlers down to Argentina too, they'll be bashed accordingly.

Your point was?

[wryter2000]

60. It's not the Episcopal church's position n/t

n/t

[jody]

81. Understand but the Episcopal Church has split over the issue in my town. Part of the congregation

remained in the old church and the others went to another location.

I attended many services there before the split and was saddened to see my dear friends split asunder.

[wryter2000]

86. At the convention last summer

We spit 66% to 33% in favor of gay and lesbians marrying within the church. That's the official position.

[jody]

88. Two Christian groups can't find common ground. How can anyone expect Israelis & Palestinians to

live in harmony.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6)

[Gormy Cuss]

79. Did the other denominations send letters trying to influence the political process?

That's the key comparison. The Roman Catholic church was active in defeating Prop. 8 in CA, though not quite as openly nor as organized as the LDS.

[jody]

82. Don't know but I would like to know why African-Americans voted against same-sex marriage. Was it

because Prop 8 was written so that a vote of "Yes" was a vote of "No" against same-sex marriage?

[Gormy Cuss]

83. The CNN poll? Here's a good discussion of what probably went wrong with that.

http://calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7576

[jody]

84. #38 I acknowledged 57%. Thanks for the article suggesting it was Obama who came out late opposing

Prop 8 when as I remember he had said earlier that "marriage" was between man and woman even though I believe he did not oppose same-sex unions.

Thanks :hi:

[Gormy Cuss]

85. You do understand that 57% is only slightly higher than support from other groups, right? n/t

[jody]

87. Question: did the white-Hispanic community vote slightly against same-sex marriage but the

white non-Hispanic community vote for same-sex marriage?

I believe those two voting groups plus African-Americans make up over 98% of CA voters.

[Bloofer_Lady]

4. They should mind their own business.

The Mormon church should be dealing with its own problems before trying to influence the policies of other countries.

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. Why do Mor(m)ons concern themselves so much with this?

I get that they consider homosexuality (and by extension, same sex marriage) to be a "sin". So what? LDS doctrine allows them to baptize the dead, and thereby save them from eternity in Hell. So wouldn't the Mormons be better off if they didn't bother converting any living people, or disprupting their lives, and just did all the recruiting in the hereafter?

Or is this all just a grudge because they didn't get Polygamy legalized?

[FreeState]

19. There is one big reason they support this - LDS view of eternal life is based on Male Female Couples

From the temple ceremonies all the way to their view on Heaven - its all based on marriage.

[frebrd]

40. Well, no one's asking the mormons to marry same-sex.......

what the hell business is it of theirs what other people do?

[FreeState]

44. When you take the doctrine in account with their missionary work

then there is the connection. The LDS Church believes everyone should convert - wouldn't that be easier if they didn't have to deal with a reality that is contrary to their doctrine?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. And there you have it. It's called totalitarianism.

Namely, the belief that the entirety of life, everywhere, in every area, should be subject to one particular set of ideas.

Most religions' mandates fit the definition to a tee.

[FreeState]

48. Yep n/t

[Radical Activist]

49. Good question.

The Mormon church used to have a "live and let live" attitude about laws but that was 100 years ago when they were being attacked for their own nontraditional form of marriage. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

[Sheepshank]

70. it's based on procreation

14 million billion years into the future, those men who have become gods, are still impregnating their many wives to populate their own worlds. And wait, they're not dont yet! Another 30 trillion years and those same women are still breeding. Ain't this eternity just a ball of fun?

[Radical Activist]

28. Hard to say.

They mostly stay out of politics so why pick this one issue? My guess is that someone in the Christian right political crowd convinced key Mormon leaders to get on board. In the South its the Southern Baptists pushing these propositions, but there are more Mormons in California and the mountain west. They're being used by people who think they're a non-christian cult.

[jody]

61. Add to the fight "Catholics, Mormons Fight Gay Marriage in Argentina"

Catholics, Mormons Fight Gay Marriage in Argentina

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. Yeah, more assholes. This was to be expected. -nt

[Bluebear]

89. +

[jody]

67. Come on Bluebear, I added a denomination with nearly a billion members to your OP target with about

12 million members.

Why don't you sic those who support your attack on Mormons on Roman Catholics.

Or perhaps you don't really support same-sex marriage but really have a thing against Mormons? :shrug:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jody]

74. Did I uncover hostility toward Mormons re same-sex marriage but not toward Catholics re

same-sex marriage? :rofl:

[KamaAina]

71. Mitt Romney: "I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman..."

"and a woman... and a woman... and a woman..."

The LDS Church renounced polygamy only when it became clear that Utah would not be admitted to the Union otherwise.

[IndianaGreen]

73. A religion founded by pedophiles has no moral standing

Brigham Young was a murderer and a pedophile. Joseph Smith was crazy and a pedophile.

[jody]

76. Agree "founded by pedophiles" and IMO also any that "condone pedophiles". n/t

[xchrom]

92. of course they are -- because all the naked have been clothed, all the poor have been fed,

all the prisoners have been attended to humanely, because there are no more sick and dying in need of healing and comfort.

[TommyO]

93. You didn't think they would confine their hatred to CA and ME did you?