At the risk of getting flamed, Reid should have taken the GOP's deal on unemployment

[Recursion]

Brown and Nelson (the traitorous bastard) told Reid they would be willing to break the filibuster if half of the spending came out of currently authorized but not-yet allocated stimulus money, with the rest classed as emergency spending (marking operating costs as "emergency spending" is something we need to stop doing, anyways).

Reid should have taken the deal, especially since we're pushing the argument that unemployment benefits are a form of stimulus.

[zipplewrath]

1. The "too small" stimulus?

That's a back door way of reducing stimulus spending, that is already too small. The unemployment benefits are a way of getting more stimulus spending into the budget.

[Recursion]

2. Fine. Fix it later.

Authorize more money later. Don't leave jobless people to go beg.

[zipplewrath]

3. You mean like they are "Fixing" HCR?

If you pass something it's basically over. There's no fixing it later.

I understand your desire, take and "deal" to get the benefits extended. If that's the case, they should merely pick some programs and cut them by some amount and move forward. That is what "pay go" is all about anyway.

[Recursion]

11. Authorizing more money is a lot easier than changing laws NT

[stray cat]

4. Unemployment and food stamps are the best stimulus - I agree they should have done it

[w4rma]

5. No. We need more stimulus, not less. (nt)

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. I also agree. They are using real people's lives as a political football. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

7. That's bullshit, but if they have him over a barrel, what else should he do?

[Recursion]

8. Yes, it's bullshit

But sometimes you've got to do bullshit to get stuff done.

[Deep13]

9. He should have made them read from the phone book for a week. nt

[Recursion]

10. Sigh

[Deep13]

12. Explain. nt

[CrownPrinceBandar]

13. I would like the OP to explain this as well..........

How is forcing a "true" filibuster, in which you hold the obstructing party on the floor, "this shit again"? How is testing the resolve of the folks who are cutting benefits from over 2 million people "shit"? Please, Recursion, explain.

[Recursion]

15. Because the collective imagination of DU is absolutely wrong about Senate rules

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, Reid can do to make Republicans stand there and make speeches. All he can do is call a cloture vote every other day. He can make a big show and keep the Senate in session all night (he did that at one point), but the Republicans don't have to get up there and talk, and all you get out of it is one failed cloture vote and very tired pages and interns the next day.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

17. So you're saying our only option is to capitulate?..........

Compromise is a two-way street, and so far, the Senate Republicans are unwilling. They are making a very public show of their opposition, and my point is why can't the Dems, by holding them on the floor, make a BIG show of their rapacious opposition? You're right, it may not make a difference, but the more folks see their substance-less obstruction, the more public favor will turn in our direction. I'm just saying match their political theater w/ some of our own. Show the Senate Republicans were not going to roll over.

And why can't Reid threaten the "nuclear option"? Where is our "Gang of 14" to reach across the aisle and come to an amicable conclusion to what is really a national crisis? These rules were put in place for when an needless, ideological impasse like this occurs.

Oh by the way, my knowledge of Senate rules is just fine.

[Recursion]

18. Well, they already did that

Like I said, Reid did keep the Senate in session all night at one point. Didn't change anything.

What do you suggest Reid should do?

[CrownPrinceBandar]

22. I answered you in my post....

But let me turn the question around: Why the persistent obstruction then? Don't you think the Senate Republicans know that within a week, it'll most likely be a moot point (once Byrd's replacement comes on board, and assuming Collins and Snowe are still amenable)? The R's opposition seems even more without substance now that John Kyl floated the turd that tax cuts for the rich shouldn't be offset, but any government spending should. To me, that pushes the conversation from a political, pragmatic one into the realm of pure ideology.

I'll say it again: it's political theater. Filibusters, on either side, aren't really about the Senate. It's about showing the bases that their leaders are standing up for the party ideology.

Sorry we don't agree, but its been a good conversation.

[Recursion]

20. Also, I mentioned a Republican compromise offer in the OP. That was my point

Brown and Nelson (and I think the Ladies of Maine) were willing to go for it if half of the money came from already-authorized stimulus funds.

That sounds like a decent compromise, actually.

But Reid dug in his heels and rejected it.

[Recursion]

14. Thurmond read from the phone book in 64 because Mansfield had enough votes

The "reading from the phone book all night" form of a filibuster only happens when there are enough votes to move the legislation forward and one person or a small group wants to make a point of dragging it out.

If there aren't enough votes for cloture to pass, then the bill never even comes up for a vote. There's nothing Reid can do to make them sit there and read out recipes all night; all he can do is keep calling (and losing) the same cloture vote every two days.

[Deep13]

16. Then he should do that. nt

[Recursion]

19. He should call the same vote, over and over, and keep losing?

I think that would look pretty silly. Worse yet, it would let the Republicans go to the media and say "We're trying to do the business of the American People but Senator Reid just keeps calling the same procedural vote dozens of times over. The US Senate is not a playground, Mr. Reid..." etc.

[Deep13]

21. It would make it clear that the Rs are against doing the business of the people. nt

[blondeatlast]

23. You start a thread expecting flames and can't handle an example

from one who disagrees?

REALLY?

Maybe I should post that pic in this post. :eyes:

[Recursion]

24. That was in response to the "make them hold a 'real' filibuster" comment

I thought that myth had finally worked its way out of the DU consciousness.

[ljm2002]

25. No. He should not have taken the deal.

The minute you let these bastards start pushing you around, you're finished. They will never quit offering these "deals" that undermine your legitimately legislated programs, draining funds intended for one purpose and refusing to allocate funds specifically to help the unemployed.

The stimulus funds were duly arrived at and duly allocated. The Republicans simply want to undo that, and are holding the unemployed hostage in order to do so. They are trying to un-legislate, basically.

"Historically, Congress has always chosen to end longer-term benefits only when the jobless rate falls several points lower than where it is today." (*)

"...Stephen Stanley, chief economist at Pierpoint Securities in Stamford, Conn. "Historical experience would suggest you would be expecting Congress to continue to extend benefits at this point in the cycle."" (**)

Oddly, those tradition-lovin' Republicans can't find anything to love about that tradition.

Screw 'em. And good on you, Harry, for standing your ground. Now make them filibuster, if they've got it in them. Make them do it. And make hay with it. Tell folks the truth: the US has always taken care of the unemployed during recessions. And now the Republicans want to change that longstanding tradition.

(*) http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-07-12/news/bs-ed-unemployment-20100712_1_average-weekly-benefit-unemployment-benefits-jobless-benefits

(**) http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2010/07/07/why-congress-cant-afford-not-to-extend-unemployment-benefits-again.html

[Recursion]

26. What do you mean "make them filibuster"?

They *are* filibustering. That's why it hasn't passed yet.

It was a compromise offer. That's how legislation works.