Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Are we the new ROME...?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:53 PM
Original message
Are we the new ROME...?
wow...think about it

a senate that has inscrutable power and plots against the emperor, all for their own personal gain
endless war campaigns to extremely foreign regions that cannot possibly be kept under control
crumbling infrastructure at the cost of such wars
loss of working class to warfare and lack of investment in nation at home
debaucherty rampant (while I love a good debauching, it has been really thick in our govt, and getting thicker)
rape of natural resources causes issues in food production

how far off am I?
what else can *you* think of?
Like isn't the credit crisis a repeat of ancient monetary collapse too?

history buffs... please add to the list!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, we are
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Yup, with a guy named Petraeus running the big periphery war
Yup, with a guy named Petraeus running the big periphery war for resources. Sounds pretty damned Roman to me.

-app
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. 'fraid so.
:-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. And our biggest sporting event is played in a coliseum and uses ROMAN NUMERALS!!!!111!!!!

...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. lol
thanks, i needed that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. For about 50 years we have been in decline n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Rome is burning
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. While Rome is burning:
U.S. Rebuilds Power Plant, Taliban Reap a Windfall
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4462379
(So They Can Purchase Weapons To Kill MORE U.S. Troops!!) :grr:

If it still was done by bu$h, how many here would be screaming outrage??

Oh my... how things 'changed' :hangover:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. ...the prelude
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 10:23 PM by BrklynLiberal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Now that made me laugh



fiddlin while the empire burns...




:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. All Empires have a lifecycle
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 10:26 PM by nadinbrzezinski
but quite honestly, more than the New Rome, the new Spain. the economic situation is closer to Spain than Rome... but hey that's just me.

But you could see this comming oh at least 10 years ago, when the Chinese bought our steel plants lock, stock, barret, all the way to the last screw.

I recommend the Rise and Fall of Empires by Kennedy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Which ROME? Late Republic, 3rd, 5th, or 7th century?
Edited on Tue Jul-13-10 01:27 AM by happyslug
The Rome of the Late Republic, where Senators fancied wars so that they can make money (Generally on the sale of Slaves, enslaved during the wars). The Executive at that time were the Consuls who were Senators. A Senator could only be a consul for one year, then was given the title "Pro-Consul" (i.e. Former Consul) and an Military command to make money. Julius Caesar was such a Proconsul when he was made Pro-Consul of Gaul (Then Modern Day Italy around Milan AND The "Provence" of France (Southern France, and the term "Provence" comes from the fact Southern France around Marseilles, had been a Roman Provence for over 100 years by the time of Caesar, who used the Provence to take over the rest of modern France.

The late Republic saw the final decline of working class of Rome. The Gracchi around 130 BC tried to reform the situation and both brother were able to achieve was their own murders. The Gracchi had a plan to ENFORCE long existing Roman law as to how much land a person could own AND access to the money to buy that excess land from the present owners and give it back to the soldiers who had fought and conquered most of the Known World at that time. The Roman money classes proceeded to murder both of them (About ten years apart), switch Rome from a militia based army to a Mercenary based Army (The claim was to make the Army more "Effective" but the real cause was the people, who made up the Militia based Roman Army after about 150 BC would REFUSE to serve in the army given that the wars NEVER benefited them, remember Hannibal had been defeated in 202 BC by the Militia based Roman Army (Which made Rome the Dominate Power in the Western Mediterranean including Spain). That same army then defeated Macedonia making Rome the Dominate power in Greece. In fact one of the richest country in the world was ruled by a King who turned it and his whole wealth over to Rome as a gift at his death. That king did so knowing Rome would take it anyway, but it gave the Gracchi a source of money to do the land reform Rome needed at that time. The rich decided the Gracchi was "stealing" from them twice, first by buying the land with the money from that king, and Second by NOT just dividing that gift among the rich. After the Gracchi, Roman continued to have foreign wars, but they were all minor drama between the fight between the Rich and the working class over who should get the benefits of Roman might. The Gracchi lead to Maius (Who actually did the first hiring for a mercenary army, showing the rest of the Rich how it could be done, he apparently viewed the use of mercenaries as a temporary expedite to solve the problem that no one wanted to go fight some invading Germans into Southern Gaul (Who made an effort to stay OUT of Roman Territory). Maius raised the first mercenary legions, but was quickly followed by others including Sulla who would drive out Maius from power and kill him. Caesar then inherited the support of the masses and used that support to get into power, but never did the land reform the Gracchi had proposed almost 100 years before. He gave the poor/Working Class free food and games for their support but no actual reforms. Octavian succeeded Caesar (and Octavian support from the poor was essential in his victory over Mark Antony, for the poor of Rome were the people who propelled the huge oared warships of the time period, something they have done since the first Punic War almost 200 years before. Augustus bought their support with free food and games, something even his opponents did NOT even want to give them (and subsequent such rich slowly died out or was killed by Augustus and his successors, so that by the time of Trajan, 97 AD, no one in the Senate could trace his family back before the time of Augustus, just 100 years earlier.

Augustus was able to do the above by reducing the army to just 29 legions to cover the whole world. One German Ruled of the 1700s marveled at that fact for he had more men under arms to hold onto his small part of Germany as Augustus used for the whole Roman Empire. Later historians point out that a Legion was more like a Modern Army Division then an 1700 Regiment, through the number of men in the Legion was closer to a Regiment then a Division. A Roman Legion consisted of ten Cohorts. Two Cohorts were made of 10 Centuries (i.e. 1000 men). Eight Cohorts were made of 6 Centuries (Or 600 men a piece). Thus a Legion made up of 6800 men PLUS auxiliaries to support the legion on the march (making the Legion about 10,000 men strong). Thus by the end of Augustus' rule he had only about 290,000 men under arms. At the height of the Civil War between Julius Caesar and Pompey Rome had at least 68 legions or 680,000 men under arms (And many historian question that number, for it is derived from the records we have from writers and other sources NOT a list of actual Military units, guesses go from 50 to 100 legions or 1/2 million to 1 million men under arms).

Another way Augustus and his successor saved money was to keep the pay of the soldiers the same time the troubles of the Third Century 1D (i.e. 200 plus years after Augustus). During this time period you had a slow rate of inflation, derived mostly from new Silver Coins being mined out of Spain. On top of this starting with Nero, Emperors started to debase the currency, i.e. instead of all Silver, the coins would only be 95% Silver, then 90% Silver, this accelerated rapidly in the Third Century as the Silver mines watered out and new Silver came hard to find (Diocletian tried to solve this problem with reform of the Silver Coinage, but had no way to produce new coins to replace the bad coins so failed, Constantine solved the problem by going to Gold which he took from the various Pagan Temples he had the early Church Take over, the Church received the temple, he took the Gold, he then used that gold to establish coinage that would last till the fall of Constantinople to the Fourth Crusade).

Thus the crisis in the Third Century had less to do with the Rich vs the Poor (a battle lost under Augustus who undermined efforts of the poor to reform Roman Land Ownership to include them) then how to solve the problem of a lack of money (Not Wealth, money). Paper money was NOT possible for the only paper available for widespread use was Parchment (Which is the skin of an animal, processed to be written on, an expensive way to produce something to write on, a very durable produce, last centuries and reusable, but expensive given the labor needed to make such items, thus books of the time period were written to be read aloud to a crowd of people by a person who could read and that book owner would make his money reading the book to groups who wanted to hear what was written. Books Were NOT written to be read alone, they were to expensive for that). Until the reforms of Diocletian and Constantine this money shortage caused all types of problems, but was solved by the adoption of what we call an "Imperial" view of the Emperor, adoption of Christianity as a state religion do to the fact unlike the earlier pagan religions it was empire wide and could be used by the Emperor to spread what he wanted people to hear AND a massive expansive of the army to solve the additional problems of the Goths and the Persians. Both had been minor problems before the problems of the Third Centuries, but in the case of Persia, Rome had attacked the weaker Pathenian Empire in the early part of the Third Century, looted its Capital and then withdrew using that wealth to patch things up for about 20 years then the money crisis recurred and Diocletian became Emperor and you saw the adoption of an very complicated Barter system to replace the use of Money. The Side affect of that attack was the weak Pathanian Empire was replaced by a much stronger native Persian Empire that could fight Rome toe to toe. This increase the need for Rome to keep Troops in its Eastern Border, a cost that continued till that Persian Empire was destroyed 300 years later by The Roman Emperor Herculius and the subsequent Arab Conquest.

Now, they was another way to solve the problems of the Third Century, which Diocletian did adopt (in part only)in the Greek Parts of the Empire. This seems to occur for unlike Egypt, North African and Western Europe, it had retained small farms (The rest of the empire had become nothing by large plantations worked by slaves). These farmers were willing to provide manual labor as a form of payment of their taxes. This survived till the 1800s in parts of Turkey. This is as far as Diocletian did this practice. He appears to have tried to expand it elsewhere but the rich refused to co-operate and as a member of the elite he did not want to fight them so the reform ended. 300 years later Herculius would expand this reform to include military duty, when he had to replace the remains of the Mercenary Roman Legions with troops who would accept land for pay, but of that more later.

Constantine did his financial reforms, continued by his son and successor Constantius II. Constantius II was succeed by his pagan Nephew, Julian the Apostate, but his plan to restore the old Pagan Temple died not only with him BUT his failure to take the Persian Capital so he could loot it and use that loot to undo what Constantine had done. The Persians defeated his efforts and his successors had a problem, what money Constantius II had left to Julian was gone. Retrenchment was the order of the day and the Gothic rebellion (Caused by Roman Greed) saw the lost of over 40,000 men in the battle of Adrainople. This was the destruction of what remained of the Roman Army at that time. Diocletian and Constantine's reform solved some of the problems, but giving the power of Persian the ability to raise a Mercenary Army to defeat the Goths was out of the Question. At the same time anywhere the Goths went they number INCREASED, given the vast number of Roman Poor who given a choice opt to be a landless Barbarian then a Roman Citizen (Diocletian and Constantine had tried to address that problem, but resistance from their fellow rich Romans stopped any real reforms). Theodosius the Great became Emperor at that point. Some how he mange to defeat the Goths. settle them within the Empire. He solved the problems of the Goths, but could do no other reform given the nature of the Empire. He divided the Empire between his two sons and that lead to the problems of the fifth Century.

The problems of the Fifth Century was the Roman Poor still did NOT support the state. They cared less who ruled. This had been a problem since the time of Augustus but now it was critical. The population of the Empire had been on the declined since before the troubles of the Third Century (Slaves have a habit of NOT re-producing). From the time of Augustus onward most Slaves came from the Roman Poor NOT foreign barbarians. This increased in the crisis of the Third Century AD. On the other hand the Roman Elite still wanted to live like their ancestors did, thus each peasant/slave had to produce more. At the same time to encourage children among the slaves, the rights of slaves increased (More to encourage them to have children then anything else). By the Firth Century (And probably by the Third) this increase in slave rights had been matched by a reduction in the rights of free poor Roman Citizens. Thus in this time period they was not much difference between being a Slave and being a Freeman (And about this time both groups became known as "Serfs" i.e. freemen to everyone but their masters who in turn had limits what he could order them to do, by the seventh century this was so clear that true slaves, someone who had no rights, started to be called "Slaves" not the earlier Roman term "Servus". "Servus" became today's "Serf". The term "Slaves" came from the Slavic Word for the Slavic people i.e. "Slav". By the time the term "Slave" replaced "Servus", Slaves were still known but rare. The vast majority of people were Serfs as that term was used after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West.

Anyway, I went into the above for the Roman poor did NOT support the State. Constantine attempt to get them to do so through Christianity ran into a brick wall, their masters, the Roman Elite was NOT about to arm them or even permit them to join the Roman Army. Thus although the Fifth Century, the Roman elite given a choice between arming their own peasants or hiring German mercenaries, opt for the later every time, even if the pay was to give the German some land. The Vandals were the big exception to this rule. The Vandals moved into Spain then to North Africa while Attila the Hun was attacking Gaul, Constantinople and Italy. In 460 AD the Vandals took and sacked Rome from their base in Carthage. That was something Hannibal could only dream of in 200 BC when Rome was only Italy, parts of Sicily, the Provence of Gaul (But NOT enough of Gaul to stop Hannibal's March to Italy via Gaul. Now over 600 years later, a Roman Empire spanning the whole Mediterranean Sea could NOT stop a Naval Attack from Carthage.

The rest of the Fifth Century in similar. Now in the case of every other Invader from Germany, the Romans were able to defeat sooner or later, but rather then push them out of the Empire, the Roman resettled them on the condition they support the Roman Elites against the other enemies of Rome. In 450 AD the German head of the Roman Army in the West became the de factor ruler of the Empire, the Western Emperor a mere figurehead. The Western Emperor-ship would last another 26 years before the then German head of the Army decided a Figurehead in Constantinople was as good as one in Rome and abolished the Western Emperor-ship and sent the Regalia of the Western Emperor to the Eastern Emperor in Constantinople. Basically the Germans took over do to the fact they were willing to fight and the Roman poor would not (And the Roman Rich thought since they had all of the wealth they were still in charge).

In the Sixth Century, the Eastern Empire with its wealth in Egypt still intact and the poor peasants of present day Turkey willing to be recruited into the still mercenary army (And Persian tied up with a 50 year peace treaty) went on the offensive against the Germans holding parts of the Roman Empire. What was the crime of these Germans? Being Peasants themselves they tended to side with their fellow Roman Peasants NOT the land owning Roman Elites. The Vandals started this, doing radical land reforms in Tunisia. The Goths who then ruled Italy did the same in Italy. The Roman Elite complained to Justinian, then the Emperor in Constantinople. Justinian ordered an attack on Carthage then on Italy. In the bloodiest war fought since the Punic War, Italy was re-taken by Roman Forces (Rome itself would exchange hands five time during the ten bloody years of war). At the end the population of Rome had been reduced to Zero (The last Gothic Commander of Rome took all of the remaining Roman Citizens in Rome with him when he withdrew, the Roman General then replaced then with people from his own side, thus for at least a day Rome had a population of one). The guesses on how many people died varies, but at the end of the War, the population of Italy was no more then 10% of its population under Augustus, 600 years before. How much on this predates the Italian War, is hard to say, but Italy had been on a population decline since 180 AD, the Sixth Century just saw its bottoming out. Justinian was proud of his efforts to reunite the Roman Empire, taking Carthage, Italy and Southern Spain, but he did so by bankrupting the state AND getting the Roman Elite made at time for the taxes he raised to do so. After Justinian died, the Lombards would invade Italy and take most, but not all and not Rome, of Italy. Again the reason seems to be the Peasants had liked the Land Reforms of the Goths and the Lombards reimposed those reforms, the Lombards even became Catholic in their attempts to become one people with the Italian Peasants. From 570 AD onward the Roman Empire had problem, no money to defeat the Lombards AND no way to convince the peasants to support the Empire for all the Empire brought with it was the peasants losing their lands back to the Roman Elite the Goths and later the Lombards had taken the lands from.

Finally in the Seventh Century, Rome would face its Greatest challenge. The West was under Barbarian rule but all of them recognized the Eastern Emperor as their Emperor. All had done land reforms so that the peasants of the west did NOT want a return to Roman Rule. All of the Barbarian occupying former parts of the Empire (Except Britain) had embraced Christianity. At the same time the Roman elite were losing their wealth in the West as the Barbarians slowly did land reforms. At this point the Persian decided to take over the remains of the Roman Empire. i.e. the Eastern Empire. The Persians were successful, so successful that for the first time since the time of Alexander the Great a Persian Army camped on the Mediterranean and then a few years later took Egypt. Heraclitus was the son of the Roman Commander in Carthage. Heraclitus then sailed to Egypt (Between the above Persian Camp on the Mediterranean and the Persian Occupation of Egypt). Heraclitus then used that as his base to attack Constantinople and replaced the existing Emperor with himself. Heraclitus then left Egypt fall to the Persians. Heraclitus, either implemented (The traditional view) or Completed (a modern minority view) a reform of the Roman Army. He took what remained of the Roman Army and imposed them over the population of Peasants in the Greek Speaking part of the Empire. He converted the mercenary army to a militia whose pay was retention of the land they and they family was living on. Now his army had more Calvary then earlier Roman Armies, but they were raised and maintained like the Militia Roman Armies of the time of Hannibal. This took over four years to finish. He then marched this army deeper into Persian then any Roman General had even gone and destroyed the Persian Empire. In the Subsequent peace treaty Egypt was returned to Roman Rule. Heraclitus then pulled out of Persia, replanted the True Cross in Jerusalem and then to the Red Palace in Constantinople.

At the same time as the above was occurring, Mohammad was slowly uniting the Arab Tribes. After his death, the Arabs would attack both the Roman and Persian Empires (Both weaken by the above bloody war). The Arabs would take Jerusalem then Syria, then Egypt. The Romans would try to retake the year after the Arabs took it, but with no support from the people of Egypt, the Roman left (Before they were driven out by the Arabs). Thus the Roman Empire was reduced to the Greek Speaking part of the Empire. Egypt had NOT been subject to the Reforms Heraclitus had imposed on the Greek Speaking parts and thus the Roman Elites viewed themselves as being the rightful owners of the lands of Egypt. A view rejected by the Persians during they five plus year rule (Where they gave the land rights to the peasants and in exchange the Egyptian people supported the Arabs, even while most Egyptians would stay Christian till the First Crusade 600 years later). While they had been a religious split between the Greek Speaking and "Egyptian-Arab" Speakers of the Roman Empire for about 200 years before the Arab Conquest, that split was more a reflection of how those two communities (Greeks speakers and "Egyptian-Arab" Speakers) were dealing with each other AND the lost of the Latin speaking west then any real difference in Religion (I.e. religion was the excuse and/or cover for the real argument which was who should be the dominate group within the Eastern Empire). During the rule by Persia, the "Egyptian-Arab" Speakers had saw the old Roman land ownership rights abolished and replaced by a Persian system. The Old Roman elites all lost any rights to the land and the Persians gave that right to themselves and in turn to strengthen they hold on the people, gave those rights to the peasants. This was the same type of land reform that had been going on in the Latin West for over 100 years at that time. The peasants liked it and hated the re-imposition of Roman land Ownership rights when Heraclitus won back Egypt when he destroyed the Persian Empire. When the Arabs took over Egypt, the peasants saw this as a second chance at land reform and took it. Thus they stayed Christian but came to oppose the remains of the Roman Empire.

Heraclitus has been criticized on why such a dynamic ruler in his war against Persia, but so passive when it came to the Arabs, just 15 years later. The traditional view is he was old, and wanted a Greek Only empire. A minority view is that given his earlier success, he wanted to build on them NOT save the wealth of the Roman Elite. In this view Heraclitus just left the areas go, for to take them would only benefit the Roman Elite NOT the peasants that made up his army (Remember he had replaced the remains of the Roman Mercenary Legions with his Militia based Themes), nor even himself or his family (Through his Brother was involved in the Fight to keep Syria, a fight Heraclitus stayed out of). If he re-took Egypt how would that benefit his army? The Roman Elite would do what they did after he had defeated the Persians, imposed themselves over the peasants of Egypt AND demand not only the money the peasants owned to him for the year Egypt was won back, but for all the years Egypt had been under Arab Rule. A similar situation occurred in South Vietnam during the Vietnam War, the US would clean an area of the Viet Cong and then the landlords of the peasants would go into those areas and demand NOT only the rent for THAT year but for all the years the Viet Cong held the area. This was a tremendous lost of wealth to the peasants and in Vietnam in the 1960s and 1970s, and Egypt in the Seventh Century, such a reconquest would lead to increase suffering by the peasants who in turn would support any new invader. Heraclitus had a first had experience with that when Egypt was returned to Rome by Persia and saw it occurring again and decided it was NOT worth fighting for (i.e. leave it go, for all it was bringing him was more warfare not peace). Thus Heraclitus left Egypt and Syria go, improved his new Militia Army which within 100 years was able to go on the offensive for the first time since late Roman Republican days. For the next 400 years Greece had a stable situation. Would lose Carthage about a generation after Egypt and then Sicily (Which it would win back) and hold onto Southern Italy till the Normans took it from them at about 100AD but overall given the fact Constantinople was the largest city in the World till 1204 AD, you had a very stable Government. After 1054 and the Defeat at Muzakurt increase power in the rich, decrease rights of peasants would return (both Increased after 1204), but 500 years of stability was more then Rome ever achieved when it relied on a Mercenary Army AND little or no rights to its working poor.

Just a comment, that rule by the rich was the problem of the Roman Republic. The rich defeated every effort to strengthen the power of the poor, even leaving huge sections of the empire to fall rather then army the peasants for such an Arming also means giving them more power. The reform elements were Strong under the Gracchi (c 130BC), but undermined by ability to raise troops with money as opposed to given the poor rights. The rich then patched over and over the problems of the poor but suppressing them over and over again. As this lead to a decline in the whole economy, the rich rather import workers (Slaves) and later Soldiers (The Barbarian "invaders" of the Third and Fifth Centuries) then arm their own peasants (Do to the fear such peasants would demand true reforms NOT crumbs as Augustus and his successors did). Finally, it took the Roman Empire to fall back on the one part of the Empire the Rich had the least investment in and support from before it decided it had to save itself by arming its peasants. With that arming, the situation stabilized. This method of stabilization started with the Byzantine Empire, soon spread westward. Finally becoming almost complete in the ninth century (The Century AFTER Charlemagne). Charlemagne had in many way reestablish the Western Roman Empire, but the inherent instability lead to its fall within 100 years, but that fall forced Western Europe to adopt a system much like the Theme system of the Byzantine Empire. Peasants were given rights and their "masters" not only could demand services from the peasants they were also expected to protect them (the key medieval Feudalism). The Final straw against the remains of the Roman system was the dual invasions of the Vikings and the Magyars. The Vikings attacked by sea, the Magyars attacked by Horseback. Both in the century after Charlemagne. The remains of the old Roman land owners were told either defend your lands and your peasants or the land was given to someone who would. This strengthened the hands and power of the serfs whose rights expanded even while they still had duties to perform for their masters. Once that was done the Dark Ages faded away and Western Europe emerged into the Middle Ages. An Age of stable government, stable enough to launch the Crusades starting in 1100 AD. The Crusades would lead to instability when you see Roman Law reimposed on Western Europe during the Renaissance but that is after almost 500 years of stability if you use the formation of the Holy Roman Empire in 900 AD as the start and the Black Death as the end of that long period of stability, something Rome NEVER had.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Happyslug, I salute you!
Its way too late for me to actually READ your post (I've been dealing with a colicky horse and just came on to DU late night to relax and read infotainment, but your post is so long and detailed, this is actually my way of bookmarking it for tomorrow).

But your obvious interest and knowledge remind of my daughter who is a medieval archaeologist, specializing in Viking economies. Why the similarity? She's equally as archaic and entertaining in her knowledge of "odd facts" about stuff.

So a kick and a rec for you tonight so I can find you tomorrow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. interesting. but more paragraphs would improve the ease of readibility & more people likely to read
if it's not too late, please edit & put in more paragraph breaks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Haven't fact checked but know enough to say great post. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Awesome post!
Many thanks for taking the time to post all of that. Great stuff. I hope many others are able to take the time to read it.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Interesting!
Thanks for posting. And thanks for adding the paragraph breaks. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. It needs rewritten, and I was doing so, but the Computer decided to lost it
Some day I may try again. I remember Mrs Clausewitz comments on her husband's book "On War". He had done the first draft, it needed to be edited and probably re-written at least five more times, but he died before he could do so so she finished his book as best as she could while keeping the ideas he was trying to form intact. Difficult assignment even for the writer, more difficult for this widow but what I need to do to the above comment. I did one rewrite and lost it, but it is time to go on to other things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nah, every nation and empire is singular. There are some simiarlities we could learn from, though.
One of the biggest reasons for Rome's decline was the shifting of the public burden from the wealthy to the poor. The wealthy eventually began to write themselves loopholes out of paying taxes, so the taxes on the poor continued to go up. This had two predictable and familiar results. One, there wasn't enough money from the poor to meet public needs, and two, the poor were increasingly pushed too low. This is a trait of many failing empires, from the Islamic empires to the monarchies of medieval Europe.

In Rome, the wealthy could avoid taxation by setting up large farms in the countryside, and the poor could avoid taxation by not owning anything. So the poor began giving up their lands to the wealthiest in exchange for the right to work their former lands for a fee. The results were that no one paid taxes, and the manoral system was born, preventing peasants throughout the Middle Ages from owning the fruits of their own labor and basically enslaving them to their lords.

We aren't Rome. There is no natural order to empires requiring them to rise and fall. History isn't a cycle and there are no natural laws which guide it. But people do tend to react similarly over the millenia to similar stimula. The wealthy tend to cling to wealth the same way, the poor tend to rebel for the same reasons. If you watch long enough, eventually you will see the appearance of a cycle for a while. But nothing is certain, and cultures and civilizations all follow their own paths. We aren't doomed or sliding down an inevitable slope. We are just doing things similar to what Rome did as it declined in Europe (though it continued for another thousand years in the east and fell for other reasons).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. on some level, i agree
It is true that peoples will create their own sociological path and that culture plays alot into it. But you also have to remember that much of our own 'democratic' society is based on the western greco-roman culture and model.

However, i think people are MUCH more inclined to patterns in behaviors, especially dysfunctional ones. These are usually 'textbook' responses...regardless of the century. Humans are very simple creatures when placed in large societal groups, and tend to act out of fear, greed, and other baser instincts when challenged within those systems.

It is the individual, the grass roots progressive idealism, that brings forth a renaissance. I would like to think that somehow we can make that change in direction as a collective...but very often it seems that there has to be a 'fall' before anything can be redirected.

Too big to fail also means too big to turn the ship around before falling off the edge of the earth ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well...
I don't believe we can't fail, if that's what you thought I was saying. I just mean there's no inevitable crash that follows a cycle. Look at Egypt. They had an empire in some form or another for 3000 years, and even when they lagged, they remained a powerful nation during that time. There's no formula to predict a nation's decline, and there's no inevitable cause of it. The reason for a nation's or empire's success and decline are rooted in many factors. The old belief that personality--of the ruler or the individuals or the collective people--was the deciding factor has been rejected by historians for a century. The opposite extreme, that a nation's rise and fall depends entirely on the long term factors of soil, climate, and ecology, is probably closer to the truth, but not perfect, either.

Egypt survived as an empire for so long because of the Nile and the resources it provided. The constant renewal of the land by the seasonal flooding and resoiling of the land meant that Egypt was the one region in a desert land that would always be prosperous. On the other hand, personal ambitions caused wars and internal feuds that constantly changed leaders. In some ways, America could be seen as that type of empire, with a strong government in control of vast, self-sufficient resources.

Rome had a resource center in Italy, but its success was based on luck and timing as much as its resources. Rome rose and organized into a powerful military just as the old Greek world of Alexander the Great et al was collapsing, leaving a vacuum for some ambitious nation to fill. Rome was it. Rome conquered the resources it needed with the human resources it commanded, and when the commanders were no longer adequate, they changed leadership models. Eventually the new model stopped working, Rome had reached the limits of its expansion, and it was not set up in the west to maintain a frontier when it could no longer conquer new lands to fund it (Same thing happened to the Huns, the Vikings, and others I've forgotten or never knew about, in a much quiker time frame).

Then there were the Arabian/Islamic empires of the 8th through 12th centuries, built in deserts with almost no resources except manpower and some cash capital based on trade routes. They conquered lands, built aqueducts and a sophisticared irrigation system, connected them all with caravan routes (based on camels, not on wheels, which itself is fascinating), and used advanced technology to maintain their edge. In some ways these were a series of empires that lasted less than a century (most of them), but overall they were one grand empire with a constantly shifting government structure, and in some ways they were just an extension of the Sassanid Persian Empire they conqured.

We fit parts of all those systems. We have natural resources, we had a streak of luck, we have the technology, and we have the incredibly stable and efficient (in the big picture) beauracracy to manage it all. So there's not telling what combination of those factors combine to extend our empire or collapse it, but they aren't formulas. We can compare ourselves as easily to the millenia-long Egyptians as to the centuries-long Romans, and be just as accurate, and just as far off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Ever since we allow a group called The Cato Institute to influence Government.
From the date of his Censorship (184) to his death in 149 BC, Cato held no public office, but continued to distinguish himself in the senate as the persistent opponent of the new ideas. He was struck with horror, along with many other Romans of the graver stamp, at the licence of the Bacchanalian mysteries, which he attributed to the influence of Greek manners; and he vehemently urged the dismissal of the philosophers (Carneades, Diogenes, and Critolaus), who came as ambassadors from Athens, on account of the dangerous nature of the views expressed by them.

He had a horror of physicians, who were chiefly Greeks. He procured the release of Polybius, the historian, and his fellow prisoners, contemptuously asking whether the Senate had nothing more important to do than discuss whether a few Greeks should die at Rome or in their own land. It was not till his eightieth year that he made his first acquaintance with Greek literature, though some think after examining his writings that he may have had a knowledge of Greek works for much of his life.

In his last years he was known for strenuously urging his countrymen to the Third Punic War and the destruction of Carthage. In 157 BC he was one of the deputies sent to Carthage to arbitrate between the Carthaginians and Massinissa, king of Numidia. The mission was unsuccessful and the commissioners returned home. But Cato was so struck by the evidences of Carthaginian prosperity that he was convinced that the security of Rome depended on the annihilation of Carthage. From this time, in season and out of season, he kept repeating the cry: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam." (Moreover, I advise that Carthage must be destroyed.<30>) (The expression was also at times phrased more compactly "Carthago delenda est" or "delenda Carthago"). He was known for saying this at the conclusion of each of his speeches, regardless of the topic. His position towards Carthago is also depicted by Cicero in his dialogue De Senectute.<31>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder

"Therefore, Carthage must be destroyed!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. No. Rome was Sane and Orderly compared to Us.
We're in Uncharted Territory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. As close to it as possible in this world.
There certainly ARE parallels. Even the language/culture hegemony thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Where the hell is my orgy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. That's only for the rich.
Then again, maybe it was that way in Rome too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. Well, we don't have lead plumbing today
but I'm sure we have enough chemicals in our drinking water to mess us up, one way or another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "We're gonna pump the shit shit right outta Rome!!"
Sorry..couldn't resist the Mel Brooks History of the World Part 1 reference...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. A general populace easily manipulated by "reality" tv and 'infotainment' = Bread and Circuses
Edited on Tue Jul-13-10 04:16 PM by truebrit71
..the ruling class knows how to tame the commmoners with broadcast displays of sex and violence...Do as we say, not as we do attitude coming from the ruling class..total disconnect between the well-off and the poor..using religion to enforce compliance with authority..

Hell yes we are Rome..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. We are. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC