Rationing Oil Consumption

[BeFree]

I see no other solution.

Those who use more would have to pay hefty for their consumption and contribution to the oil problems of limits and pollution caused.

Those who use less would no longer be subsidizing those who are gas hogs.

So.... how much oil is one person entitled too?

[Ganja Ninja]

1. Actually I'm all for some sort of rationing.

Allow people so much a week and then anything they use over that would be steeply taxed.

[BeFree]

2. Absolutely

That will be that hard part.

There will be much opposition to such a thing, but given that Peak Easy Oil is coming, and in light of the death of the Gulf, and global warming, is there really any other solution but to limit consumption?

[BeFree]

3. Try this:

10 free gallons a week. You get a coupon that has cash value and if you want to put those gallons in the bank for say a vacation drive, then you won't be penalized, rather, you are rewarded for saving gas.

Or you could sell those coupons to a gas hog and pocket a few bucks..

[Redstone]

5. Works for me. My car is irresponsibly powerful, but I don't drive it much.

I do believe your proposal would be a fair tradeoff: You want to drive a car with too many horsepower? Go ahead and do so, but realize that you won't be able to drive it too frequently.

Or be prepared to pay big.

Redstone

[jwirr]

6. During WWII my extended family would save their ration stamps for

gas and all pile into the old Model T for a trip to NW MN for a week to fish & enjoy the woods. That was in the days when families still lived near each other. The people back then did not seem too upset with rationing but then there was a war going on.

[tritsofme]

4. It is an interesting solution in theory.

But practically, it could not be implemented without sweeping Democrats out of power for a generation. We are a nation of gas hogs. As long as there is not a supply crisis, I don't see how this could happen.

[Trillo]

7. If one can't get gas for their auto, would it result in "abandoned vehicle"

or "non-operational vehicle" status and be removed from the premises?

Personally, if its needed, it's needed. However, there would need to be fixes made to existing local and state laws in order to prevent confiscation of private property.

[BeFree]

9. Everyone, car owner or not, gets a share

If you decide not to gas your car and it sits there and rots, then there are laws that can take care of that problem if on, say, a city street.

[Trillo]

10. What about when on private property? In our county, not city,

the favorite harassment of code enforcement is claiming vehicles in the driveway on private property may not be running, and thus, we are told, without proof they are operational, will result in a towing.

[pscot]

8. This would be anathema

given the prevailing free market ideology. But eventually the market will take care of it, inflicting a lot of pain in the process.

[Hutzpa]

11. One question

are we trying to win? or are we working hard at snatching victory out of our grasp?

The selfishness is dumbfounding.

[BeFree]

12. Win what? Global Warming?

We won the WH and the Congress. And they've yet to pass an energy bill that even comes close to solving the myriad of problems oil consumption is causing. I doubt they ever will.

In a way, oil prices are a way of rationing. And that way makes for some handsome profits.

[Hutzpa]

14. You know its a shame the

White House is not using this episode to drill down gas price.

This is a gift.

[county worker]

13. Do you ever consider the fact that oil is used for more things than gasoline?

Get a big picture perspective then get back to me.
There are so many things not taken into consideration here that your idea is really bad in my opinion.

[BeFree]

16. Sure have

All that crap left over from refining gasoline is now made into plastics and stuff.

Which we put our food in and make all kinds of stuff with. New uses for it everyday. What did we ever do without it?

Next question?

[county worker]

21. How about airline fuel? I guess we are going to ground all aircraft from now on.

Unless there is a viable alternative you are just pissing in the wind.

First give people incentives not punishment. Then work to provide people with alternatives and I don't mean walking or riding a bicycle. I mean real workable alternatives like electric cars and more public transportation that fits into their life styles.

Were I work, if we us some other means to commute to work rather than driving one person to a car for 80% of our annual commutes, we get two extra paid days off per year.

[Subdivisions]

22. If we ration transporation consumption then we can have the most important of that 'stuff' for

a lot more years to come.

[Kat45]

27. And heating oil. For those of us in colder climates, that's a huge factor.

Especially in brutal winters. Don't want to see elderly freezing to death due to lack of heat in their homes; most of them would not be able to afford the additional cost. Heck, I'm not elderly but I get cold very easily. Since I don't have money, I keep my heat lower than I would like because oil is expensive as is. How much oil would each person/family be allocated and who would make this determination?

As per usual, there would be little effect on the rich and suffering for everyone else.

[bobbolink]

32. "little effect on the rich and suffering for everyone else."

One would think that on a forum named "Democraticunderground", this wouldn't even need to be said.

One would think that that understanding would be deeply imbeded, and always the default position.

How sad that it is so ignored.

Thank you for stating the obvious..... because it is so ignored and debased here.

:yourock:

[sad sally]

60. How about hemp as an alternative to all those oil products?

Hemp used to be made into rope (even the US military used it), cloth, paper, totally Earth reclaimable food containers, oil and seeds were used in food products.
I'd bet it could be used to make some or many of all those plastic bags and bottles that end up being dumped alongside highways.
And maybe some of the illness and diseases we've ended up with could be avoided with less oil laced products.
Bet the oil industry had their hand in criminalizing growing and commercial use of hemp.

[Radical Activist]

15. We need transportation alternatives first.

Like high speed rail and electric cars. Things Obama started promoting before the oil gusher.

[BeFree]

17. Rationing first

People could use their coupons for fares.

See, in this plan, the overconsumptive would pay a progressive use tax which would make it so everyone gets their share.

We all share in the problems, not all not share in the benefits. Let's make it even.

[Hutzpa]

18. Swell Idea. eom

[Radical Activist]

23. So people who live in towns without mass transit or rural areas can go fuck themselves

while people in major cities have easy alternatives. No, that isn't just and it's not a serious idea in the real world anyway.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

25. That does seem to be the prevailing attitude around here,

"If you don't live in a 250 square foot neo-tenement in New York and have a bus pass you are destroying the planet so fuck you."

[BeFree]

29. I lived in the sticks

And reduced my oil consumption by 50 % at that time.

Living in the sticks meant that I had to be more attuned to my needs and be more efficient.

I became very conservative with a lot of life's actions, but enjoyed my life more than ever.

Some people, eh?

[Chan790]

67. I'd say my POV is...

If you don't live in a 250 square foot neo-tenement and have a bus pass you are destroying the planet so fuck you. I don't care where it is, it could be in Coldfoot, AK or Easton, MD or Dillsburg, PA or Marfa, TX. No, I don't think anybody is entitled to have more than that.

I'm just a proud radical egalitarian.

[Hutzpa]

26. "....everyone gets their share"

I don't see anything in her post that said rural areas are fucked, do you? Where did you get that from?

[Radical Activist]

28. Because people will be forced to use more gas and buy more rations

than people in large cities who have other options and less distance to travel. Why should grandma have to buy more gas rations because the only grocery store in town shut down and she has to drive 30 miles now? Or do we force grandma out of her home and into a city with mass transit?

Or...we build transportation alternatives for smaller towns like high speed rail and more electric cars first so that people have alternatives to gas.

[Hutzpa]

33. We move the grocery to grandma so she don't have to

travel 30 miles, besides you have to start thinking of building electric charging stations, talk about a whole
new work force. That to me is still considered as sharing just on a different perspective, which is creating
jobs.

[Radical Activist]

37. Until all small town grocery stores go out of business because they can't afford

the extra cost of shipping groceries by semi trucks that use gas. How else do you think things get shipped to small towns?

Dramatically increasing the price of gas is a horrible thing to inflict on the rural poor until we've built the infrastructure for alternatives. Charging stations are fine but they have to be built first.

[Hutzpa]

43. We stop small town grocery stores from going out

of business, those people need food, we fight down the price of gas by point fingers at the gulf with
25000 wells available with oil, yes, with those oil coming from those 25000 wells being pumped into the
market it takes care of the argument from repugs about rationing oil and also takes care of the
environmentalist, we can instead use that plus the oil coming from middle east as a stop gap measure
until energy efficiency technology are put in place.

Low gas price toward the November election, ha who'd have thunk it

Everyone's happy, just not the oil companies because they will be losing some of their 400% profit.

[bobbolink]

57. That was the white smoke eminating from the hindmost parts.

[bobbolink]

35. How do you think people in rural areas are going to fare with increasing gas taxes to

"encourage lower consumption"?

Your bombastic disrespect for alternative views is noted..... yet, you are ignoring the obvious.

[bobbolink]

44. "We all share in the problems, not all not share in the benefits. Let's make it even."

Excellently expressed.

No real "progressive" can ignore that.

Thank you! :yourock:

[Subdivisions]

19. Wait and watch. With Peak Oil upon us, that's sure to be in the cards. n/t

[BeFree]

31. That and global warming

It really is the only solution.

And then alternatives will hit the markets. Lets face it, the rich can afford the alternatives but the way the market is now they have no incentive to use them. So, we make it so the rich save a nickel and before long, like in the history of computers, everyone can buy one.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

20. sometimews I swear DU is dedicated to strategizing a century long republican majority

I would vote republican if some of the proposals floated around here came to pass,

[Subdivisions]

24. Like what, besides this one? Perhaps point some of them out in an OP in GD? n/t

[Radical Activist]

30. Stalin could have done it.

I don't think it will fly in the US.

[bobbolink]

34. This should be the obvious strategy, shouldn't it? How much we have forgotten of our

Dem roots. :cry:

Thank you for this.... this is like Single-Payer Health Care... the country is too far right and too ignorant of facts for this to pass now, but we MUST make sure it is on the table, or we have NOTHING to negotiate with.

Thanks! :yourock:

[reformedrethug]

36. Sounds great.....

on the other hand tho, what about people like me who have to drive 65 miles 1 way to work. I used to only drive half of that but I had to take a transfer to a different client in order to keep a job 14 months ago.

Why do you want to penalize people who have long commutes on a daily basis?
Oh and before I get the obligatory move comment, no way we can sell our home and find another close to the same size and at the same price range. We thought about it but it just was not feasible to do.

[bobbolink]

42. You had my attention until you got accusatory.

Unlike the current DU atmosphere, there *are* those of us who still care about others, and are willing to listen.

But when it is phrased as an accusation, then forget it.

Try again. You may find that some of us actually listen and care. I know that is a shock.

[reformedrethug]

47. Well considering that the OP stated the following:

"Those who use more would have to pay hefty for their consumption and contribution to the oil problems of limits and pollution caused."

I was directly addressing the above line. Not so much directed at the OP but to those that have this view in general.

I would LOVE to be able to cut my gas usage down but unfortunately until the job situation changes I am kinda stuck.

[bobbolink]

48. I understand that..... there are poor people who have to travel far to work, because they can't

afford to live where the affluent people are who need their services.

All of that has to be taken into account. I believe that during the rationing of the war years, there were "dispensations" for such things. There could be again.

But it requires mutual respect, rather than attacks.

[reformedrethug]

49. It was not meant

as an attack on the OP, more in the vein of a general "you" statement. I guess I could have phrased that differently. Thanks for the point out!!

[laughingliberal]

63. I think there would have to be some consideration of this before it would be fair.

Housing in our area is very expensive in any of the areas convenient to jobs. The people who can afford to spend money on our services live far from us. Of course, these days, people are all in favor of letting things fall heavily on the poor.

[bobbolink]

65. Do you think piling on more tax on gas would be "fair" for these people?

Because that is what is being pushed.

I am really confused and disappointed in the reaction to this by people who say they care about poverty. I cannot see a more fair way of doing this. If you can, please post it.

[laughingliberal]

68. I think we have ample evidence anything done will fall more heavily on the poor.

Because that's how it's been since the election of Reagan. The rationing might work better than more taxes but there would have to be dispensations of some sort for the poor. I could support it under those circumstances. It would also be necessary to make allowances for different areas of the country. Perhaps it should be based on average commutes in an area? Many here can not afford to live closer to work.

Many of our poor out here must travel long distances to work as they are in the rural areas. Our rural county has always had a large poplulation of poor. Many of them live here because housing in the cities became unaffordable over the years. Unemployment in our county is now 18%. The nearest jobs are 30-50 miles away. If this were addressed in the rationing plan, I would support it.

[bobbolink]

69. The way that there will be "dispensations" is for people to get active and DEMAND them.

And without demanding rationing in the first place, what we get is more and more taxes.

I am baffled that people are willing to sit back and let the taxes just pile up. How that is supposed to be better than rationing has me totally discouraged.

[Obamanaut]

38. There was rationing of fuel during WW2, as well as other stuff. And,

there was the even/odd gas buying days during the emgargo several years back.

We survived both, and probably can again.

I can support rationing.

[FBI_Un_Sub]

39. The blowout in the Gulf is evidence that we have passed "Peak Oil"

The days of oil that is

1. Cheap,
2. Easy to drill (close to the ground surface),
3. "Light" (low molecular weight, low cyclics - for easy refining),
4. "Sweet" (Low sulfur),
5. Compatible with existing refinery technology;
6. WHERE WE DON'T HAVE TO DEPLOY TROOPS TO "PROTECT OUR OIL."

are over.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. Canada...

Unfortunately alienating the Canadians on all energy matters seems to be a national policy so they will just sell it to China and India instead.

[Terry in Austin]

41. Rationing will be automatic soon

Nature made the decision for us -- peak oil is already several years behind us, and the downslope just gets steeper.

[bobbolink]

45. And the question is... do we ration it fairly, or in favor of the more affluent?

[socialist_n_TN]

46. That IS the question, isn't it Bobo...............

We could survive rationing. As another poster stated, we had even/odd day rationing in the 70s. And even 10 gallons a week would get me to work and back and a little extra neighborhood driving besides. If it was free that would be even better. To be fair there would have to be provisions made for people who drove a long way to work or lived in rural areas. A lot of my family lives in rural southern areas and it's a haul to go ANYWHERE. However, I'd rather see some rationing by fiat than rationing by cost. That's highly unfair to poor and working class people IMO.

[bobbolink]

54. " I'd rather see some rationing by fiat than rationing by cost." Very well said!

"That's highly unfair to poor and working class people IMO."

That's not just an opinion, that is fact.... a fact that the Dem party *used* to know and govern from, and now ignores.... and many are ignorant about.

Of course there would be some special needs and special considerations. Which there isn't when it is rationing by cost.

What *wouldn't* need or get any special consideration is someone who wanted to drive down the block to the convenience store in a Hummer. Too bad for them. ^_^

:hi:

[Taitertots]

50. How about a progressive transportation tax?

Everyone who makes over a certain income has to pay 10,000% more for gas, or any transport services other than public transport.

Lets make sure "subsidizing those who are gas hogs" doesn't end up punishing the working poor with a harsh regressive gas rationing scheme that the rich can easily get around. If you ration gasoline, the rich will run cars on propane, natural gas, or any number of things only they can afford.

[Odin2005]

51. Us folks out in the boonies need high-speed rail, first.

[bobbolink]

53. I don't understand.

Isn't rationing, so you have the necessary fuel, more helpful than high prices that poor and rural folk can't afford?

[Odin2005]

55. Hmm, good point.

[bobbolink]

58. "I'd rather see some rationing by fiat than rationing by cost. " post #46

Its like all that talk of how single-payer would mean "rationing". Health care is *already* rationed, it is just rationed according to cost.

The same with fuel.

It *will* be rationed.. its a matter of whether it is done fairly or inequitably.

[H2O Man]

52. The rich already

have too many burdens in our society. This is one way to make things more equal.

[knownothing]

56. Education

The only solution to this is educating people that we need to get away from oil entirely, and getting them to pressure their representatives into doing something about it, such as funding more research for alternative energy (and alternatives to all oil based substances such as plastic).

I would like to try and start a group along those lines....

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=101206806599196&ref=mf

[lib2DaBone]

59. The world is drowning in oil....

..the storage tanks are full and over-flowing. The tanker ships are full and can store no more. The underground vaults are stuffed.

The world is awash in oil. There are 3,000 capped wells in the GOM alone.. waiting to be re-opened. That doesn't count Nigerian rigs, North Sea, China Sea and South America and Alaska.

The only question is.. "How can the commodity markets and the oil companies manipulate supply to create another "shortage" and get pump prices up to $5 a gallon?"

[knownothing]

61. Relatively speaking....

That is true. There are over 1 trillion barrels of oil in known reserves.

However, the world is using about 100 million barrels of oil each and every day. By my math, that gives us a little less than 30 years until the last drop is used.

So really, it depends on how you look at it.


By the way, much of the oil from those Nigerian rigs has leaked out and is responsible for environmentally ruining much of the country. Not that anybody cares about that as opposed to the Gulf Coast, just thought that I'd throw that out there.

[lib2DaBone]

62. Yes.. I had heard that about the NiIgerian Oil Rigs...

Good Point. It is time we get off Fossil Fuel.. it's old world technology.

We are drowning in oil and the problem is that this toxic crap is slopping over our environment everywhere.

The Oil Companies and their Paid Politicians are not going to go happily into the future... we are seeing this in the news every day.

[Cetacea]

64. I'm all for oil rationing.

Perhaps when governments actually get serious about oil conservation they will create a rationing program. I'm willing to bet that most Americans would welcome the chance to reduce consumption.
It's a form of empowerment, something that is sorely lacking...

[Overseas]

66. We could stop criminal waste like BP's negligent deep drilling.

There are lots of oil industry curbs that should be instituted before hurting our already bankrupt consumers who have to drive to work.