Cheap Gas?

[BeFree]

I mean c'mon....

The Detroit Free Press has an article in today's rag complaining that cheap gas and small cars are going to ruin the auto industry.

Cheap gas at $2.75 a gallon?

A buck and a quarter is cheap gas, not 2.75.

Who the hell writes this crap?

And how the heck do they get away with it?

[DJ13]

1. The MSM supports higher prices because they're owned by

... the same investment groups who made a fortune speculating the gas prices so high in 2008 that it destroyed our economy.

They need people to think near $3 per gallon is cheap so that no one will complain its too expensive next time they speculate the price to $5 a gallon.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

We need to divest investment groups from the obvious conflict of interest that exists when they control the dissemination of information through their ownership of MSM outlets.

[Oceansaway]

2. 2 yrs. ago it was $4.11 p/g here...nt

[The2ndWheel]

3. There isn't a damn thing cheap about a buck and a quarter gas

We've just been so good at privatizing the profits of that energy use, and socializing the costs of that energy use to the rest of the planet, that we can convince ourselves that there is such a thing as cheap energy.

[stray cat]

4. yes - cheap gas - just not based on US consumers

if we want to encourage less usage it needs a hefty tax like in most of Europe

[bobbolink]

18. So you want poor people to suffer more? Lose the pathetic jobs they have because they

can't get there? Poor mothers who have to give up their kids because they can no longer support them? People who can't have luxuries... like getting to the doctor? No food because it all goes to TAX?

Good thinking.... quite "progressive".

[Statistical]

44. You ignore the obvious.

Significantly raise the minimum wage AND raise gasoline taxes.

win-win

Of course it is more fun to hurl insults than think rationally.

[bobbolink]

46. The OBVIOUS is rationing. But, that would be to RATIONAL for you.

You want to threaten me and then slam me, eh? Then call yourself a good "progressive?

You come here to get your rocks off?

[Statistical]

49. Yeah I "threatened you" with advocating for a rise in minimum wage.

The horrors. May I be struck down for such evil thoughts.

[bobbolink]

75. Your threat was finally erased. Since that was ALL it cost you this time, you would be wise to

heed.

[Statistical]

82. The only one making threats is you and pathetic ones at that.

You aren't a mod so what you think is really irrelevant.

For the record none of my posts were erased namely because I made threats against anyone.
I advocated raising minimum wage to $12 and you took that as a threat.

Me: "Significantly raise the minimum wage AND raise gasoline taxes."
You: "You want to threaten me and then slam me, eh? You come here to get your rocks off?"
Me: zzzz

[bobbolink]

85. Your dishonesty gains you nothing.

If that was truly what you said, it wouldn't have been erased, would it?

None of the readers here are that gullible to believe that, so peddle it elsewhere.

You have shown yourself, and this is tiresome, repeating the same nonsense. There is nothing to be gained by either one of us in continuing this nonsense.

Given the obvious need for power, I'm sure you desire the last (destructive) word.

By all means.... show your character, and have at it.

[Statistical]

93. No post of mine on this thread has been deleted or "erased" n/t

[walldude]

5. 2.75 is not cheap?

LMAO... compared to what? I was in Europe and Scandinavia a couple weeks ago and I didn't see gas for less than $5 a gallon. Most places were more.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

20. Damned right. AND Europe doesn't have good public transportation, either.

:wtf:

[Subdivisions]

6. 'Cheap' oil is only $10 - $20 per barrel. A barrel of oil now costs ~$75.

Gas is NOT cheap.

[BeFree]

9. Clinton done good, eh?

Peace on earth and cheap oil. Thanks, Bill. Us poor folk sure do miss you.

Bushco fixed that, eh?

[taught_me_patience]

7. Cheap gas and big cars are going to ruin the environment

and keep us hooked on foreign oil. Expensive gas will encourage car buyers to downsize. Expensive gas didn't kill the auto industry in Germany...

[XOKCowboy]

11. I saw gas going for 2 Euros per LITER in Europe...

a couple of years ago. At the time that was about $8USD a gallon. With those prices you don't see people driving Hummers and one-ton pickups. Cars are smaller and more fuel efficient in Europe (and Asia) for a reason.

[bobbolink]

21. Study after study shows no such thing. Hummer drivers laugh at high gas prices.

Its. Poor. People. Who. Suffer.

Does that matter to you?

[taught_me_patience]

25. Please cite your sources

[bobbolink]

28. YOU made the claim otherwise, YOU do the proof.

It has been posted here MANY times that your premise if false.

Pay attention.

[taught_me_patience]

37. I guess you can't

because it's bullshit. Gas has a very inelastic demand curve, but there is a price where quantity demanded will drop. We saw that when gas hit $4/gal a couple of summers ago.

[bobbolink]

38. Obviously, you have no proof, so the bullshit is yours.

Rationing works just fine, but that would then impinge on YOU, wouldn't it?

Obviously the punishment of poor people is just fine with you.

"Progressives on the march."

[Statistical]

39. However demand has a long lag and we didn't have $4 per gallon gasoline for very long.

Most people can't cut back their driving very much 70% to 90% of driving is commute or work related. Got to work got to drive.

So it isn't like they can just cut back of mileage however they can use less gasoline PER MILE by driving more efficient vehicles however that transition takes some time. People don't rush out to sell their truck at bottom dollar the first time gas goes up a nickle.

What we saw in 2008 was encouraging though. SUV made smallest % of vehicles sold and among those sold it was smaller SUV. Resale values for used SUV plummeted and resale values of efficient compacts increased.

Had that trend continued for a couple years we would have seen demand fall not because because "cut back" but simply because they needed less gasoline to go the same distance.

[Hannah Bell]

67. question is, whose demand? high gas prices are a trifle to people with lots of money.

they're a big deal to people with little.

[Statistical]

26. Resale values for SUV hit all time low in 2008.

Resale values for efficient vehicles hit an all time high.

For ever billionaire with a Hummer there is a middle class guy with F-150 getting 11 miles to the gallon who is already stretched thin at $3 a gallon, anything more and he suddenly starts realizing using his quad cab for a commuter vehicle isn't going to work.

The poor need help but keeping gasoline cheap isn't the solution.
How about Congress raise minimum wages to $12 AND raise cost of gasoline to $6.

[Statistical]

10. Gasoline is heavily subsidized. $2.75 is cheap gas.

We have a gasoline tax but it only pays roughly half of the cost of the roads and 0% of the environmental damage. If we wanted gasoline to reflect the true cost of its use it should be triple current rate adding about $0.50 or so a gallon. We also subsidize refining as a result we have lowest cracking spreads in the worlds. Remove subsidized for gasoline from federal govt and you are looking at gasoline being another $0.70 or so higher. We also subsidize oil. The price of oil wars should be included in cost per barrel but they aren't they are absorbed by taxpayers. The real cost (including externalized costs) of gasoline is in the ballpark of $12 - $20 per gallon (no subsidies, full taxes to pay for cost of its use, and no burden on general taxpayer fund). So yes $2.75 is cheap gas.

The sad thing is we have built this trap. Artificially cheap gas has resulted inefficient deployment of capital. Business & consumers never look at true cost only their "bottom line". Thus cheap gas has encouraged policies & products that capitalize on cheap gas. Not only is gasoline subsidized but so are the roads.


Things like:
suburbs, larger homes, larger vehicles, multiple vehicles, strip malls, heavy dependence on trucking, less mass transit, less efficient vehicles, less research into alternatives.

Now if there was no global warming I would say keep gas cheap because it is going to hurt a lot when prices rise however we are between a rock (the reality of how expensive our fossil fuel driven lifestyle really is) and a hard place (cheap gas encourages more consumption and that means more emissions the planet simply can't handle).

Luckily China is going to solve that dilemma for us. $2.75 is cheap gas you will be paying $6 by 2030 and likely $10 by 2050.

[BeFree]

13. So

The solution is to raise prices on everything, thereby reducing consumption, and that way the environment will be saved?

Are you thinking the US standard of living is killing the planet? And if we crush that standard, all will be fine?

Just asking.....

[Statistical]

16. No. Not that at all.

Just that the low price utterly distorts the true cost.

A smaller more economical car doesn't seem that much "cheaper" when gasoline is $2.75 a gallon however it does make sense if consumer had to pay the true cost of gasoline at the pump say $12.50 a gallon. That "cheap big" house 80 miles out in the exurbs suddenly doesn't sounds like such a great deal when the commuting cost is $15,000 a year is fuel.

Obviously it simply isn't possible to go from $2.75 to $12.50 a gallon overnight.

I am just pointing out that for decades ultra cheap gasoline has distorted the true cost of everything and as such has resulted in us (country as a whole) making some very poor decisions based on the true cost.

"The solution is to raise prices on everything"
Here is the point you aren't getting. True cost is always paid. ALWAYS. It simply isn't paid at the pump. We ARE paying $12.50 a gallon for gasoline right now. We are paying $2.75 directly and the rest indirectly. How indirectly? Via higher sales taxes, via higher income taxes, via cost of 2 wars, via damage to the environment, etc.

By hiding the true cost from the consumer it has created artificial demand for the worst things for the planet (distant exurbs, giant homes, inefficient vehicles, long distancing shipping, etc) which reducing demand for the best things (alternative fuels, local organic crops, efficient city planning, etc).

So what can we do to get out of this trap. Well obviously we can't expect poor to pay $5 a gallon gasoline on $7.5 minimum wage. Wages need to rise so subsidies can go away and prices reflect closer to their true cost. Something like hike minimum wage to $12 an hour (help for poor), provide a tax credit based on average fuel usage (help for middle class) AND raise cost of a gallon of gasoline to $5.00 via taxes.

I am not saying that is the only way or even best way to do it but in the long run wages need to rise and prices need to reflect true (unsubsidized) costs.

[BeFree]

27. Not a bad theory

What has happened is that the government, in a conspiracy with the big oil, big bizz, has, indeed, hidden the true costs --- whatever that may be.

Big auto could have made fuel efficient vehicles. They haven't, until now, finally. And now that they are, the true costs are still being hidden. So the conspiracy continues.

But if we did use 50% less transportation fuels, then the taxes on the fuels would have had to go way up. 20 billion gallons of gas a day, times 40 cents a gallon tax is a bunch of money, everyday.

It is a total cheat and the rich are the only ones who, in effect, can call gas at 2.75 cheap. For the rest of us, it is a killer. And so, who is to blame? The victims?

[Statistical]

31. "And so, who is to blame? The victims?"

My post wasn't about assigning blame. It was simply trying (maybe poorly) to show that by subsidizing oil and gasoline we encourage the exact opposite of what we need.

Keeping gasoline cheap doesn't help the poor. Raising minimum wage (and wages in general) so that they can afford true cost of gasoline does.

[BeFree]

40. Ok

I can tell from that that you aren't poor.

I do remember what you wanted a minimum wage for for writing... how much was that, again?

See, I am poor. I know what cheap means and 2.75 a gallon is not cheap.

Should it costs more? Maybe. But were it to cost more, I would be even poorer. In fact, the cost of a couple of years ago made me poorer, even tho I conserved like never before.

So, who is to blame for the problem you laid out? Can we blame poor folks like me?

[Statistical]

43. What?

"I do remember what you wanted a minimum wage for for writing... how much was that, again?"

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyways I believe minimum wage should rise and be indexed to inflation. $3.75 gasoline is "cheaper" living on a $3.75 minimum wage than $2.75 gasoline is on current minimum wage. If you want to refuse to believe that despite the obviousness of it well there really is no reason to continue. Cheap gas is an illusion because it is subsidized and it goes hand in hand with cheap labor.

[BeFree]

45. Sorry

It wasn't you. It was..... and he wanted $50 an hour just to write. Sorry 'bout that.

The numbers you put up just now are correct.

But what about that 1980 1.40 gas price in the earlier post? That price was an aberration and to use it as a single data point is quite disingenuous. Gas was under a buck 10 years or so later.

[The2ndWheel]

47. Why bother raising the cost of gas then?

If you raise the cost of gas, but increase the ability to pay for that increase in cost, why waste the time to find the true cost of gas? The term "true cost of gas" wouldn't mean anything. There wouldn't be any difference if gas was $15, or $1.50, if everybody is able to afford $15 gas the same way they were able to afford it at $1.50. You're still in that trap. You're just subsidizing the other side of the equation.

[bobbolink]

50. Of course, which is why rationing is the only LOGICAL way to reduce useage.

Because it is those with LOTS of money to waste who will continue to waste gasoline and laugh about it.

If it is rationed, they can choose to keep their Hummers and use it a lot less, or get a reasonable car they can use more.

Quite simple logic.

But, those who have plenty of money and don't give a damn about poor folk detest the idea.

Because it works.

[Statistical]

51. That would only be true if gasoline existed in a vacuum.

Say the cost of an electric or hydrogen powered vehicle is $6000 more than a gasoline powered one. The cost to operate is 2 cents per mile ($0.10 per kWh and 200 watts per mile). The fuel cost to operate a conventional vehicle is $0.07 per mile ($2.50 a gallon and 35mpg). One would need to drive 120,000 miles to break even on the alternative vehicle.

Now say the cost of gasoline was $5 per gallon. That would make the per mile fuel cost about $0.14 and push the break even for alternative tech is 42,000 miles.

Make sense?

As a result more EV get bought, more economies of scale, even lower prices and virtuous cycle develops where the more expensive gasoline is marginalized over time.

If gasoline was non-replaceable you are right it would do no good at all however gasoline is certainly replaceable by many alternatives however the alternatives are more expensive but wouldn't rise in price if gasoline was allowed to float to a price closer to its true cost.

[BeFree]

53. How do you tax electricity?

Where comes the tax revenue to build the roads if cars were electric or 100mpg?

Answer that and you've just solved the problem the govt faces with revenue loss from higher mileage autos.

An answer that keeps them supporting the current fiasco, to the poor people's detriment.

[Statistical]

54. Personally this is what I would do.

Simply include it in the vehicle registration (license plates) process. Right now I think average gasoline tax (state, city, federal) is $0.26. Average vehicle gets about 30 mpg. Thus is 0.7 cents per mile. Lets just say 1 cent per mile. SO when you get your tags $120 is added to the cost (12,000 miles of taxes). When you renew them if you drove less than 12,000 miles then you get a credit towards next renewal if you drove more than

An even better system would vary the "rate" by vehicle weight as heavier vehicles do more damsge to roadways (and use more energy) so say 0.5 to 2.0 cents per mile depending on vehicle model.

Much easier than trying to separate out EV taxes from non EV taxes and would allow collecting road funds regardless of fuel type (gasoline, bio-diesel, hydrogen, natural gas, electricity).

This isn't the only solution but somehow we must transition off of fossil fuels and the artificially low price of gasoline is a headwind. To be progressive any system must be designed to not burden the poor. The easiest method (and less bureaucratic) I can think of is to simply raise minimum wage at the same time to a rate greater than inflation adjusted value.

[BeFree]

55. That is the current idea

This taxing by mileage. Which is what they do now with the 47 cent a gallon gas tax. The more you drive, the more gas you use, the more tax you pay.

And weights are taxed at registration already.

What they are trying to figure out is how to track road use without pay at the pump.
Of course it is intrusive, because what they have come up with is 'black boxes' in each car which transmits data. Problem there, eh?

We have ourselves in a fine mess. And of course, rich folks won't be hurt at all no matter how expensive gas becomes.

Govt loves that 47 cent a gallon revenue. Weaning themselves from it is hard. That, coupled with the resistance from oil companies wanting low mileage autos so their bizz can grow, is what has us in this pickle.

[Statistical]

56. However weights at registration are bogus.

A flat mileage tax is bad because once again it punishes the frugal. A hummer pays no more in mileage tax than a Prius.

Also the damage to roads is directly related to the square of the weight. Thus a vehicle that weighs twice as much wears roads out 4x as fast. However a heavier vehicle may pay 10% more in registration fees.

Black boxes are too complicated, and a pain, and opens up fraud, etc.

Rather simply have mileage checked everytime tags are renewed. Just some numbers to illustrate. A prius or leaf, or volt might be charged 0.4 cents per mile driven while a Hummer or F-150 super duty might be charged 3.7 cents per mile driven. A combination of vehicle weight and efficiency will determine the "rate". That information would be put on the sticker next to mpg.

F-150 11mpg city, 18mpg highway, mileage surcharge 3.7 cents.

However all this is hypothetical, realistically inertia is a monster and I doubt an alternative system will get passed in the US in next decade. So we will have subsidized gasoline and business as usual (large SUV being used a single person commuter vehicles, etc).

[BeFree]

57. Yep

More of the same insanity.

I think a black box that would be hard to tamper with, as the solution. I can finagle with a regular odometer. <grin>

A black box which tracks mileage and energy use. Then whether one uses solar or the grid to charge, road use would be taxed fairly.

If and when the govt comes up with a sellable solution we will see an explosion of high mpg cars.

[ThomThom]

61. So we raise the price of gas, encourage more fuel efficiency

and less commuting. Create more car and van pools, improve mass transit and get people to drive less and plan their driving better. Europe already has more efficient cars because of the price at the pump. The same companies that sell us gas guzzlers and monster vehicles already makes these cars. If gas was $10 a gallon people would demand a car that got 5 times the gas mileage.

[ThomThom]

59. We need to get people out of their cars and onto efficient, clean

affordable rapid mass transit. People need to live where they work and give up the commute. Making it possible to live near your work and have public transportation will create jobs, good paying jobs. Creating jobs where people can walk bike and easily bus to work just makes sense. Commuting hours on the jammed freeways is silly no matter the price of gas. It is time to start thinking of new ways to do solve problems and create some real jobs not Mcjobs that no one can live on even if they live next door to Burger King. The way we are going soon there won't be any jobs to commute too.

[bobbolink]

23. Well, it won't cost very much to cremate all the poor folk who die, now will it?

[bobbolink]

30. THE solution is rationing, and the US has done that before.

It works.

BUT, then "progressives" would also be pinched, not just poor folk.

What a pity, eh?

[Statistical]

32. rationing is the solution? Really it was utterly horrible as a policy.

Likely the worst possible thing we did.

[BeFree]

62. Rationing?

Not such a bad idea, really

Everyone gets a fair share and if someone uses more than that, they get taxed heavily for doing that use.

The claims here about how bad the use of it is, and the limited availability of it, is cause for great concerns across the board.

Rationing may be the only way to control the bad habits and make the markets find and deliver clean and renewable alternatives.

[taterguy]

65. So if we ration gas, what should the limit be?

Pick a number.

I'd like to know.

Seriously.

[bobbolink]

74. Combust that strawman, please.

[BeFree]

76. Actually, it is a good question

How many gallons does one person need?

If we are going to ration oil we need to have a number to begin with.

And I think, rationing is the answer.

I see that a homeless person who was allowed XX number of gallons, and who has no need for those gallons, could sell those rationed gallons to some fat gas hog.

[bobbolink]

77. Of course it must be discussed, if the whole issue is to be taken seriously.

But surely you see that putting the ONE PERSON who suggests the issue on the hotseat is nothing but a diversion, and divisive. I no longer play those DU games.

Oh, and... being a homeless person living in her car, I would assume that you wouldn't make the assumption that I need no fuel, right?

[BeFree]

78. No... not directed at you.. or homeless

But I do see the ultimate wisdom in rationing. People without cars should not be subsidizing those who do have cars.

There is no other real world way to solve this whole problem of oil consumption.

I am kinda in the mood for an OP on just that. See you there?

[bobbolink]

79. That would be a great OP, and judging from your handling this issue here, I

think you would do a good job on it.

I am not always on DU anymore... this kind of useless arguing is just a waste of precious energy, so when you write it, please send a PM and give me a heads up.

Thanks! :hi:

[PJPhreak]

80. Rationing did not work in the 70's

The odd/even plates? Two Dollar limits? Nope,Did not work at all.

I drove a Vega back in 73/74 and you wuold not believe all the "Plate Switching" and "Station Hopping" that was going on,trust me if there is a way to cheat people will.

Before you slam me,I am Poor,VERY Poor,living on just EBT Food Stamps and 300 bucks a month. Thats it a total of $498 a month,Hell I "Flew The Cardboard" just last week to hustle up $16 and a possible Temp job in a few weeks,so I am right there.

What is the best way to change peoples gas usage habits...Raise the Price!

Yea it Sux,It will slam folk like me. I live "Out in the Boonies",Way Out.Trust me on this one.

And yet the Only way that has proven to work,the only to make people curtail their driving,the onlt way to force the Auto Co.'s to build fuel efficient cars is to raise gas prices,dramatically.

Look at 70's cars.

Then look at 80's cars.

What changed? Gas Prices.

[bobbolink]

81. You are wrong on the rising taxes, and it has been proved over and over and over...

And what you cite is NOT rationing.

It was just more gaming.

And, if you are truly poor, and truly a Dem, then you understand the problems with REGRESSIVE taxation.

But, I have learned that people who have their minds made up on DU are not subject to logic.

[PJPhreak]

83. First...

1.I never suggested raising taxes...What I said is that when gas gets much more expensive,the consumer demands better fuel efficiency from their autos,thus forcing the auto co.'s to build more fuel efficient vehicles, thus if gas get a lot more expensive WE will demand such action.

Lets talk about the "Average" Gasoline Consumer...The person whose car gets an average of about 20 mpg with a 25 gallon gas tank...at $2.75 a Gal.this would cost about $65 bucks to fill that tank. If that same tank cost double that($130) the average person would HOWL!!

and the Auto Co.s would do a better job of getting more MPG'S outta their cars,FAST!

What do I base my opinion on?

1. I am a Gearhead,a "Carnut" LOVES me sum Hotrods!! that being said there Many ways that folk could get MUCH better MPG's outta their cars...Overdrives,Taller rear tire heights,changing the rearend ratios,Cold air intakes and better flowing exhausts,Better tuning tech,hell you would be shocked what a simple EPROM Chip reprogramming can do for gas mileage(This can be done with a cheap laptop run by a skilled 15 year old),HI MPG Tires,Driving Habit Changes,Carpooling,I could go on for an hour on this alone.

2.Its gonna happen anyway...When Countrys like China,India and other emerging countrys middle class get to the point that we were in the 40's,50's and 60's they will consume so much of the worlds oil resources that the price will rise...Dramatically. as Oil is a "Commodity" traded on world markets as the demand goes up so does the price...Just a fact of life,Hell I think it stinks too,but that is the reality.

So What can we do about it?

The first thing is to wean America off Oil and Oil based products.

And you can bet your sweet bippy it will hurt...All of us,Badly

But that is the Reality...weather We Like It or Not.

[bobbolink]

84. Congradulations on being a "Gearhead"

When you are willing to discuss the reality with poor people, let us know.

[PJPhreak]

86. I can be a "Gearhead' and an "Enviromentalist" at the same time!

Where do you think the the most "Safety and Environmental" changes in the Auto indurstry Came From? The Feds? The Auto Industry Itself? No it came from Gearhead Racers and the Sanctioning Bodys of Racing....Check yer Facts on this one!

Detroit has historically fought any Safety and Environmental changes that would cost them profit.

As an example...

Toyota
The Ford Crown Victoria and Mustang gas tanks
The Ford Exploder
the Pinto
The Corvair
the Firestone Tire/SUV debacle

Again I could Go on for an hour.

And it seem like you did not read the second half of my pervious post.

And yes you can be a Gearhead and be poor...My current "Hotrod is a 110 cc motorbike that gets 85 mpg. Total cost...$750 bucks...No I do not nor would not own a $100.000 Plymouth Hemi Cuda.

[bobbolink]

87. Environmentalists have NOT been listening to poor folk, and don't seem to be willing to.

I didn't detect ANY concern in your post for the disastrous results on poor folk that the raise in gas taxes for the purposes of "conservation" would entail, so, no, I don't pay that much attention.

"Progressives" and the Dem party has ignored and isolated poor folk, then turn around and expect our support and votes. It has worn very thin, and I think all of you are in for a very rude surprise. Had you had respect for us, as was there in the 60s, it would be a different story now.

When the rest of you decide that you want to include us poor folk, let us know.

[PJPhreak]

88. Without Environmentalists...

And the work that they (We) do there won't be a planet to be poor on.

I am willing to suffer somewhat (Actually a LOT) Both economically and personally so that we have air to breathe,water to drink and food to eat,so we can argue about shit like this for decades.

Edit to Add:

"I didn't detect ANY concern in your post for the disastrous results on poor folk that the raise in gas taxes for the purposes of "conservation" would entail, so, no, I don't pay that much attention."

May I suggest that you do...For China (And other emerging economys) is gonna drive gas prices thru the roof in just a few years,count on it.

[bobbolink]

89. Without us, you environmentalists don't have the votes.

This goes both ways, which you obviously don't care to acknowledge.

There is nothing I can do about China, but there are a lot of things you could do about poverty in THIS country.

Listening is one of them.

Showing that you are so powerful that you don't need us, and that we are dependent on you is a huge part of the problem.

It is time to learn some basic listening skills, and diplomacy, rather than relying on power and scare tactics.

[PJPhreak]

90. You are right...

"There is nothing I can do about China, but there are a lot of things you could do about poverty in THIS country."

This is true...But you don't seem to understand that China's energy use is gonna Slamhammer energy pricing in years to come...thus dramatically affecting all of us...Not just the poor.

So again,what can we do about it...voting is not gonna change the inevitable,China does'nt care about you or I.

This thread is/was about Gas/Energy prices,and how they affect ALL of us.

[bobbolink]

91. You are determined to ignore the effects on poor people, so there is no use

in continuing this "conversation". Diplomacy only works when both sides are heard, and you obviously have no intention of doing so.

When you no longer have the labor block and the poverty block voting, then *maybe* you will be more inclined to hear those you are ignoring.

So long.

[PJPhreak]

92. no....

You seem to be ignoring the facts,poor or not All of us are are gonna get Slamhammered on Energy Prices in the not too distant future.

[bobbolink]

94. There are facts about poverty, too, but that is not of interest to you.

I will repeat, for the last time, as you clearly are not interested... this road of listening goes both ways.

Let us know when you decide that poverty is important enough for you to hear and learn, and that you possess enough compassion to include poverty in your interests.

Until then, it is simply a waste of time, energy and breath. And that is the sahpe of the party today, and why the majority that we "enjoy" now is so badly endangered. Ignore it at your own peril.

Bye......in your desire for power and winning, I am sure you need to have the last word..... have at it.

[PJPhreak]

95. No...

It has nothing to do with "The Last Word"

As I said upthread...I am the Poor.

I live in a shack that in most areas in the country would be condemmable.

my car is 26 years old,has 191,000 miles on it and has a list of stuff so long that is broken that would curl yer hair...It would NOT pass Colo.Inspection,It is a Shitheap,but that is all I can afford.

I live on $498 A month...198 EBT Food allotment and $300 cash income from a roomate that does not always pay the monthly bills.

My "Hotrod" minicycle sits in the yard due to the fact I can not afford the $80 bucks a year Ins.

I was Homeless for 17 years.

So please tell me What I do not understand about being poor?

[HughMoran]

12. Price has changed little since 1979 (adjusted for inflation)

[BeFree]

14. Oh?

Minimum wage in 1970 was 2.15

Gas was 30 cents a gallon

Minimum wage now is 7.50

Gas is 2.75

Gas has gone up 9 times

Minimum wage 3 <4 times

Those inflation charts are pure garbage.

[HughMoran]

15. Lol

Pick a year where the minimum wage was way low and use that as a baseline.

:rofl:

utter nonsense - the chart I posted is a simple fact.

[BeFree]

17. Fact?

WTF?

I gave you facts, and you show a made up bullshit chart that makes Exxon look good.

And you have the nerve to call it a fact?

Bushco revamped all the inflation numbers to hide the truth and here you are playing hide and seek with bushco numbers?

[Statistical]

19. No you just cherry picked a single data point.

1980
Minimum wage: $3.00
Gasoline: $1.40
An hour of minimum wage buys 2.1 gallons of gasoline.

2010
Minimum wage: $7.50
Gasoline: $2.75
An hour of minimum wages buys 2.7 gallons of gasoline.

:)

[BeFree]

33. So

You pick a single data point?

Gas doubled from .70 in 1975 to 1980's 1.40 and then went down in the 90's to <1.00.

When using statistics, it is best to go way back, like I did.
Y'know, start from a more or less steady state, not from a state of upheaval.

[Statistical]

35. If you want to go way back then go all the way back.

The first minimum wage was $0.25 in 1938.
Gasoline in 1938 was $0.10.

One hour of minimum wage bought 2.5 gallons of gasoline today it buys 2.73 gallons of gasoline. :)

[BeFree]

48. Heh

And oh yeah, things sure were fine and dandy back then, eh?

I don't know where you come from, but each time that gas prices shoot up, the poor people like me get fucked.

Gas at 2.75 is not cheap for me or other poor folks. You can explain it away all you want, make excuses for the BPs and Exxons that have fucked us over all you want, but I know what it is like down here on the bottom and gas ain't cheap.

Now, give me an Exxon or BP that tells the same truths as you have here, and that works to keep us all living good, and then it doesn't seem so bad. But that ain't happening.

I choose to be mentally free of ever supporting their profit making that screws the poor people.
But that's just me.

[Hannah Bell]

73. it looks like there's a price "crash" at the start of a recession/depression, followed by a bubble.

1930, 1975, 2000.

[Art_from_Ark]

72. Gas in the Summer of '78 was sometimes less than 40 cents/gallon

Minimum wage was about $2.90

[Hannah Bell]

68. federal minimum wage is $7.25, not $7.50.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

[HughMoran]

22. Ooooh, conspiracy stuff too!

Nice!

Minimum wage in 1981 was $3.35.

Minimum wage in 2010 is $7.25.

Increase = 2.16 x

Gasoline price in 1981 was $1.15.

Gasoline price in 2010 (now) is $2.75.

Increase = 2.39 x


This assumes minimum wage is a good measure relative to gasoline prices.

[BeFree]

34. 1980...?

After OPEC slammed us at the pump?

And by @ 1994 gas was back down under a dollar.

You and your single data points and made up bushco inflation graphs are, well, weird.

Next your going to tell us bushco didn't conspire? Oh wait, you already did, didn't you?

[HughMoran]

36. "You and your single data points"

"made up ... inflation graphs"

:rofl:

:crazy:

[BeFree]

41. So

Laugh it off huh?

No reply? Just some stupid little smiley?

That, my friend, can I call you friend, is hugely moronic.

Choosing an all time high for gas, as it was in 1980, is just bullshit, and you know it.

[HughMoran]

42. Look, you've been pwned

...just lick your wounds and chill.

[BeFree]

52. What are you talking about?

You post a bushco era inflation chart, then use highly inflated gas prices to make your points, resort to stupid smilies, and then say I am mistaken?

Bad form, slick, real bad form.

[bobbolink]

24. Minimum wage in '68 was the equivalent of $10 per hour now.

The concern for low-income people on DU is just......underwhelming.

Then they will express shock and dismay that so many don't VOTE.

DUH.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

70. federal min wage = $7.25. it's equivalent (inflation-adjusted) to minimum in 1958.

from 1983 to 2003 it was even lower in inflation-adjusted dollars.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

[BeFree]

71. I stand corrected

As we all (?) know, the bushco era gave us all kinds of cooked numbers for inflation and I doubt anyone cares enough to straighten it out.

My gawd, in the last few years some food staples went up and stayed up 50%.

Gas has always gone up and down as profiteers gambled with the stuff, and I'll be damned if there ain't dome DUers saying they think it's ok by them.

[ThomThom]

58. it is cheap gas

the price should $8 to $10
we should not be burning it
we need to wake-up and get in the real world
cheap gas leads to gulf spills that the full cost will never be paid
we are addicted to oil and it needs to stop
we will kill for it and in the end it will kill us

[BeFree]

60. Tell ya what

Take ALL the profits out of supplying gas
tell the truth about how limited it is
and how it causes pollution

and get the government to find different revenue streams
and we will go for the cheapest energy source there is: the sun.

Oil is a wrapped gift that technology has opened
and we misuse it greatly.
Because we have been lied to and cheated by the profiteers.

Until then, don't tell me how cheap it is. The price of it hurting too many people.

[ThomThom]

63. it is cheap

[BeFree]

64. Oil in the ground is free

Free for the taking.

Now that is cheap.

[Statistical]

66. Oil in the ground isn't useful.

It must be explored, drilled, extracted, piped, refined, and transported. None of those are free.
Take all the profit out of oil..... easy.

Lets look at Exxon Mobil.
Exxon had revenue (sales) of $301 billion however they had profit of $19 billion.

Thus roughly 19/301 = 6% of the pump price is Exxon profit margin. Now Exxon is a good company to look at because they are "fully integrated". They explore, they drill, the extract, they pipe, they refine, they transport, and they retail.

If Exxon sold their product at cost and never made a single cent in profit ever again that would lower prices at pump by about 6% or roughly $0.17.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:XOM&fstype=ii

Gasoline isn't ever going to be cheaper. Maybe that is something you don't want to here. Maybe you would rather live in denial. Even if we nationalized the oil companies and removed all the profit from our domestic supplies that would only lower the cost on half the gasoline by $0.17. The other half is supplied by foreign entities so net-net we are talking a reduction in gasoline prices of maybe $0.08.

The only reason gas is as cheap as it is, is due to the heavy subsidizing of it and that doesn't make it cheap, it simply hides the price.

[BeFree]

69. fine

Ignore all the executive pay, the advertising, the three martini lunches. The lobbying.

I see where you are coming from.

People said gas would never be cheaper in 2008. They were f'n stupid ass dick heads who ignored the reality, too.