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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:57 PM
Original message
A Facebook rant in which I defend the welfare state
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 09:07 PM by LuckyTheDog
I posted this as a retort to a guy who said all forms "wealth redistribution" are immoral and should be abolished so that smart people like him would not me made to suffer at the hands of the rabble (or words to that effect):

Some people here just don't realize what being part of a society is all about. And when they are called on that, they react with anger and name calling. It only reveals that, on some level, they know they are wrong.

Everything we earn in this or any other society is earned in the context of being part of that society. We benefit from infrastructure, the availability of currencies, contract law, education provided to us as children and young adults (usually by the government), and by the fact that law and order exists (no mean feat, though we take it for granted) in the place where we live.

There really are no "rugged individuals" in this country -- save for a few survivalists who scratch out a subsistence living in the wilderness in places like Alaska. The vast majority of us benefit every day from being part of this society. It always amuses me how some of the people who hate the government the most choose to express their rage on the Internet -- which was made possible by the government.

It's also true that, here in the United States, we have chosen to pursue the path of capitalism. It's a good thing we have. More than feudalism, communism or just about any other kind of “ism,” capitalism is good at creating wealth – lots of it. However, capitalism, like everything else created by people, is not perfect, The very dynamism that makes capitalism great also makes it unstable and subject to disruptions.

Some of those disruptions are really, really good. New technology, for example, has generated more economic growth than anything else. And here in America, we reward technological innovation, so we get a lot of it. Good for us.

Here is the downside: The history of capitalist societies is littered with panics, recessions, depressions, schemes to manipulate the market, monopolistic abuses, and other kinds of problems that are hard to anticipate – and hard to overcome. The result is that some people, through no fault of their own, get hurt when those things happen. They become unemployed and suffer other kinds of economic harm.

Now, the happy libertarian would say: “NO! Those people are not unlucky! They are stupid, slothful, immoral and deserving of their fate! Why should I – one of those whose choices in life were validated by the fact that I was NOT hurt – pay for the freight for all those idiots who were less wise than me?”

The answer is obvious. It's because they were not all idiots. (Sure, some of them were, but then, that holds true for some “successful” people, too. Dumb luck really does exist.) In most cases, the people hurt by the unstable nature of capitalism are hard-working, decent people who simply could not anticipate all the bazillion variables ahead of them when they were choosing a career path.

I know a woman who has a master's degree in engineering and kept going back to school for post-graduate certificates to keep her skills up to date. But guess what? She had the misfortune of failing to see that, decades after she started her first job, the American auto industry would go into a tailspin. Or, even if she did have an inkling that would happen, she had every reason to think her hard-earned skills and spotless work record would prepare her for anything.

That woman has now been unemployed for 18 months. She applies for jobs every day. She networks like crazy. She even volunteers her time to a start-up incubator in order to keep herself sharp. Yet, she cannot find a job and is likely to lose everything if this goes on much longer.

What her story tells me is that nobody is really “safe” in a society like this. But do I want to give up on the dynamic nature of the capitalist economy just to get the kind of predictability offered by a system like, say, feudalism? Heck no! And don't even get me started on communism. That was a HUGE disappointment.

The best solution, it turns out, is to use some of our tax dollars to make our dynamic, ever-changing economy more humane and sanity-based than it otherwise would be. In short, we need a safety net. Without it, capitalism becomes vulnerable every time there is a serious crisis. Just look at the Great Depression. Every kind of demagogue, crackpot, revolutionary and would-be Messiah appeared on the scene in those days. Had Roosevelt failed to step in and sand the rough edges off of capitalism, the whole system could have fallen apart. Roosevelt saved capitalism to fight another day and to evolve into something better. Yet, folks call him a communist. Amazing.

Can the social safety net go too far? Of course! Are all welfare-state programs well-designed or effective? No way! But the extent and nature of the specific programs are details that can be ironed out. The underlying truth is that it's hard to seriously argue for a return to the kind of 19th-century capitalism that set the stage for the Great Depression of the early 20th century.

Call me all the names you like. But I'm not going to apologize for wanting America to survive or for loving this country enough to support those things that will ensure its survival over the long run.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Humanity is a social animal, ever since we were huddled around fires under the stars
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 09:06 PM by ck4829
Humans have helped each other out, found niches in their communities, and did things to help those who could not help themselves.

This whole "Going Galt", "nobody has ever helped me, I'm never going to help anyone", "I've got mine" Ayn Randian ubermensch hoopla goes against our DNA and the very thing which made homo sapiens a successful species, IMHO.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. LOL re homo sapiens, don't forget the 1-4% genomes Eurasians share with Neanderthal. n/t
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. OMG... I just Googled the dude I have been arguing with
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 10:20 PM by LuckyTheDog
It turns out that he is a columnist at LewRockwell.com:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/cooper/cooper-arch.html

That explains a whole lot.

Here is the Facebook thread: http://www.facebook.com/#!/topic.php?uid=128015890542670&topic=135
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Extreams in either direction are bad.
But when capitalism sets social policy things get worse, back when demand was higher then production capitalism had some help in moving production where it was needed in an almost democratic fashion, since what people most wanted or needed got built.

But once capitalism has to create demand or if there is not enough need for production, capitalism fails miserably, because all its good effects turn in on itself.

Really it is not sustainable in its current form, which is why they moved to central planning based on money. But to maintain that system they need to spiral into a police state, since part of what is wanted to be maintained is two tier system, like the feudal one you mention.

It really is not complicated... unless someone wants to be a slave owner.



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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am just guessing that all of the tax incentives that
corporations don't count. Billions of tax dollars and subsidies to corporations already making billions.....
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. In their minds tax breaks DON'T count
They think of corporate tax breaks as allowing corporations to keep money that otherwise would have been "stolen" from them.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I also think they believe that corporations deserve the
tax breaks and subsidies because (the theory) is that the corporations provide employment for Americans. I have heard this many times. Yet when I point out that those corporations are outsourcing U.S jobs...I get a blank stare.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. notice how it doesn't seem to count when wealth is redistributed upward...
...only down.

Pretty much the same case with "government interference in the economy", as if governments hadn't been "interfereing in the economy" since the first imposition of standard weights and measures.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. And here is some of what the libertarian asshat posted in response to my posts
Straw man arguments, insults, name-calling... this has it all:

... your statement that people don't know what being part of a society is all about is so bathed in gov propaganda you stink. Why is it that you feel the gov is not only the best but the only entity in a society that can help others? Your logic is so flawed you look fooiish. You believe that if people in our society need help that our society is too immoral to voluntarily help them so the gov should force their sense of morality on everyone and tax us to fund social programs of their liking. But who is the gov? They too come from that same immoral society so how can their morals be any better? Don't even try to defend the gov's morals, that would make you look mentally retarded.

Any gov program is inefficient, over budget, over schedule, corrupt many are also redundant so society as a whole is worse off, not better because of it. What you see as justice for some is an even bigger injustice for those forced to pay for it. How do you justify food stamps for one person at the cost of food money for another? It's just stupid. It's nothing but an immoral redistribution of wealth rewarding the have nots and punishing the haves.

If you feel our society should be more giving then you have every right to organize your resources and people and create private organizations to help those in need. Then people who share your concerns can voluntarily help others. What you and nobody else has a right to do is to force us to pay for your cause. That is immoral, that is unjust and that is what has gotten this country $13 trillion in debt you moron and is why the country will soon be bankrupt and the dollar worthless which will prove my point: such programs harms society as a whole for the temporary benefit of a few.

Your sense of "community" is a sense of "communism". It failed. You talk like a facist: no sense of the individual only groups and organizations of societies. You talk like a coward afraid to be responsible for himself. Well I and many others are not. By virtue of the fact that we exist we have a right to life, liberty and our private property friend. Grow up.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Time to decide if anyone else is reading your exchange...
...because this one looks to be very snug, wrapped in his ideological blankie.

But if so, or just to wrap up your own point, he has a very rigid and myopic view of what constitutes "redistribution": he only sees government programs. "Welfare" programs at that, not public works and infrastructure-building.

What you're talking about is the fact that "capitalism" isn't just one thing. As I put it when I first thought up my sig years ago, there's the kind of capitalism that defeated Communism, and there's the kind that spawned it. You're not the one operating from pie-in-the-sky theory: it worked here even under presidents like Eisenhower and Nixon. you remember who accused Ike of being communist, right? The looney, ranting cranks.

People talk about the "creative destruction" of capitalism, but you'll get a whole lot more creativeness if you make the "destruction" part a lot more survivable. That's the whole reason the government "interferes with the free market" to grant limited liability to corporations, right?

(have to cut the rant short, gotta go. Regards :patriot: )
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Continuing a bit...
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 07:03 AM by JHB
Getting back to his myopia in only seeing "redistribution" in terms of government programs (and of the variety usually smeared as "handouts", at that) he's ignoring government policies that encourage the "private sector" solution: paying people more. Strong labor protection laws (and enforcement thereof), regulations on securities trading and speculation, high marginal tax rates, etc. -- all pretty bread and butter, plain vanilla politics until the late '70s -- helped ensure that a portion of economic gains were passed along downward and not just accumulated all at the top. (In short, they were the real "trickle down" economic policy, not the Reaganite crap that used the name but had the opposite effect.)

None of those were "government programs", they "redistributed wealth" by affecting the results of the magic phrase "when we run the numbers...." It wasn't about "soaking the rich", it was about affecting the decisions they made to not get soaked. When already you're at a pretty damn comfortable level of income, it puts a damper on grabbing for more if the lion's share is just going to go to Uncle Sam. Better to put that money to use in other ways, like funding R&D, treating your work force as an asset to be developed not as merely an expense to be jettisoned as soon as possible. Long-term growth, building asset value. And all without micromanagement by the government.

But in the 80s deregulation and lowered marginal tax rates removed those constraints, removed the "top line" from consideration, leaving only the bottom line (and leaving getting as far from it as possible as the sole measurement of success). Those changed the "run the numbers" results to favor speculation and liquidation. To favor getting as much as possible, no matter what the cost elsewhere, because "elsewhere" didn't show up anywhere in the equations. All the gains were soaked up at the top, like a sponge.

The basic question is: "What kind of economy you want"? One that favors people trying to get ahead? Or one that favors those who already are?

Sometimes there's a "sweet spot" where it's not an either/or situation, but most of the time that's exactly how it shakes out.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Here is the Facebook thread
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 06:48 AM by LuckyTheDog
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=128015890542670&topic=135

Please post some of that there!

BTW... the guy I hav been arguing with turns out to be a columnist at LewRockwell.com:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/cooper/cooper-arch.html
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I'm not on Facebook...
...but you're free to use any of it -- in fact, I encourage spreading it as much as possible. :toast:

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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. link to relevant Robert Reich thread
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. That is disgusting.
There are so many people that have been brainwashed into believing like this guy.
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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. I like how he calls you both a communist ...
... and a "facist" in the same paragraph!

He's obviously not even trying to understand your (well expressed) argument. There just isn't much you can do to get through to someone who refuses to think.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
That is really good! I share your sentiments completely.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. K&R2
.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. Anytime somebody has more than the next person, it is unjust.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. No, I would not say that at all
But failure should not be a death sentence.
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