What if a half a million women in Mississippi started wearing Burkas?

[RB TexLa]

Would the same DUers who support European bans be supporting the governor of Mississippi when he pushed for a law banning them saying his culture must be respected?

[CBGLuthier]

1. Yes, I would. Why Not?

I will never support a culture that subjugates women. Don't care what fucking part of the world it is in.

[SoCalDem]

2. They'd be very hot & sweaty & A/C sales would soar

:)

[eShirl]

3. adults should be able to decide what to put on (or in) their bodies... n/t

[JNelson6563]

5. I'm sure women HAPPILY don those things!

I'm sure there is no oppression in their world and surely no man who insists it be worn!

Julie

[baldguy]

10. They do.

And you shouldn't have the right to determine that a free woman is being oppressed simply because you don't approve of her attire.

[pnwmom]

13. Very few do without outside pressure. That is why so few Muslim women

here wear them.

[baldguy]

18. What's more oppressive?

Having a woman wear a burka out of a sense of obligation to their family & their faith?

Or having an outsider with no knowledge of the person & no understanding of her culture automatically assume that a Muslim woman is a victim simply because she's a Muslim woman?

[pnwmom]

25. I wouldn't assume a woman is a victim simply because she's Muslim.

I would only assume that if she acted like a victim.

[JNelson6563]

33. If I went to a region where women traditonally wore burkas

Would I be free to go about dressed as I liked? I believe I would be rather strongly encouraged (to put it in genteel terms) to don the burka or leave.

Seems tolerance is a one way street, doesn't it?

Julie

[baldguy]

36. Seems the discussion here is about Western cultures with a tradition of encouraging free expression.

If an individual is allowed to go naked in public (and in a lot of these areas, they are) they should certainly be allowed to cover up if they choose to.

[pnwmom]

56. How is it free expression when a husband or extended family forces you into it?

[baldguy]

58. "Force"? Did I say "force"? Who said "force"?

Oh, right. YOU did.

Would it surprise you to know that the largest demographic group in Western Europe protesting the attempts to ban on the burka were Muslim women? The fact is that there is a small but significant portion of these women who want to be allowed to wear it if they choose to.

They shouldn't be forced to wear it, but they shouldn't be forced NOT to wear it either.

[pnwmom]

59. It is just as likely that they protested because their husbands wanted them to,

as it is that they wore the damn things in the first place because of family pressures.

[baldguy]

61. Again talking about force.

Do you think Muslim women don't have any cognitive abilities? No real female would ever CHOOSE for them self to wear a burka?

I guess you've never met a woman wearing one, huh?.

[Tailormyst]

72. Women in burkas are not given a choice.

The men in those cultures don't ask their consent or their opinion.

I suggest you go read up on what life under the Burqa is like. Start with RAWA.

[blondeatlast]

75. You'd be wrong. Western dress and burqas mingle freely in Malaysia. nt

[ellenfl]

28. you're kidding, right?

i would bet you that there is not one woman alive who would don a burqa if it was not what she grew up with or mandated by the law of her country/religion . . . especially in the me. i cannot imagine how hot and claustrophobic those things are. i also cannot imagine not feeling the wind or the sun on my face. but over and above the physical aspect of the burqa, it is meant to keep women in their proper (according to the men who claim superiority through religion) societal place.

otoh, women in burqas are not enslaved by the dictates of what men decide is beauty. is 'burqa' arabic for 'cage'?



ellen fl

[baldguy]

29. "...is 'burqa' arabic for 'cage'?"

Try doing 30 seconds of research in the net before you display your ignorance.

[ellenfl]

55. i was being facetious. try getting a sense of humor. eom

[Tailormyst]

69. No they don't

[eShirl]

11. Clothing is not the source of oppression.

Neither will state-enforced dress codes relieve oppression.

[pnwmom]

14. It certainly can be one source as it can limit movement and vision. n/t

[pipi_k]

17. But what about women here in the US who

wear shoes with heels so high they can cause real injury...both acute and chronic...to the feet, hips, and legs.

Women happily wear them even though they can hinder movement. In fact, I know women who actually fear getting older because it might mean their having to wear "ugly" shoes.


Or what about the pencil-thin skirts we used to wear some years back? How can a woman move in one of those?


As far as I know, it's not actually men who are forcing women to wear uncomfortable fashions...at least not directly, anyway. Men don't seem to care very much about women's clothing. As far as I know, it's actually other WOMEN who are exerting control on their own gender to dress like that, in the name of "fashion".

Is that any better than being oppressed by men?


PS...I've never dressed in what one would call a "fashionable" way. The only ones who ever had anything nasty/unflattering to say about my clothing were other women. Yes...I felt shamed and, in a way, oppressed...held hostage to how my own gender thought I should look on the outside.

[pnwmom]

22. I don't know of any women who do so because their religious beliefs say they must. n/t

[pipi_k]

49. Actually I view gender oppression as worse than religious oppression...

One can change one's religion. Even one's religious beliefs. If women don't like the oppression that comes about as a result of their religion, they can change that.

What they can't change is the oppression that comes about from their own gender. They can't become something other than female.


If someone looks at me and decides I'm "unworthy" because I'm not wearing the "proper" shoes or dress or hairstyle, and if I'm ostracized and shamed for not fitting in, then there's nothing much to be done in defense if I can't afford to dress that way, or, for various reasons, choose not to, it's still oppression.

IMO, religious oppression is ignorance.

Gender oppression is just mean and nasty.

[pnwmom]

57. Requiring women to wear burqas is a classic example of gender oppression.

Do you see any men walking around with their heads covered up?

There is nothing in the Koran requiring women to wear burqas -- so in this case, it's not religious, it's cultural, and it's a clear example of gender oppression, since no men are required to do so.

[Withywindle]

66. Well, the burqa in restrictive cultures is both gender AND religious oppression.

I really don't see how you can compare the situation with Western fashion. I have certainly never had anyone threaten to beat or kill me if I don't wear high heels and I bet you haven't either. (In fact I worry more about it when I am wearing them because if someone decided to go after me, I couldn't run.) Snide remarks are cruel but they are not even remotely comparable.

[JNelson6563]

30. No, it can be a symbol of it though.

[eShirl]

37. and banning a symbol doesn't ban what it symbolized.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. Oh I dunno...

...bans on KKKlanners wearing their hoods seemed to have helped achieve the desired effect.

just sayin'

:toast:

[pipi_k]

19. I would...maybe lots of other women would as well...

I'm overweight. I can't even say how many times I wish I could have gone out in a burqua because I believed I looked like hell in whatever I wore.

And maybe quite a few women would be happy to don one so they could move about in public and not be leered at by men who only see them as sex objects.


:shrug:

[pnwmom]

24. That's sad. nt

[pipi_k]

50. It is. Oppressed by religion or shamed and oppressed by Society...

I want to know where is the difference...

[alfredo]

26. I lived in a Christian/Muslim nation and many women wore

Burkas. Even though they covered their bodies, they found ways to make themselves sexy. Those who are from less conservative traditions find fabrics that enhance their beauty. A few years back I saw a young North African woman in robes and scarves rollerblading to class. The way the fabric flowed and clung to her body was quite interesting.

[JNelson6563]

32. "a young North African woman"

My guess is that you must have seen this lady to be able to describe her as you have. Doesn't sound to me like she was covered in head to toe with only a mesh over a portion of her face.

Julie

[alfredo]

60. She was the daughter of a Libyan restauranteur. She was

not in the beekeeper garb. In Eritrea some women were covered except for the eyes. The Christians dress modestly, their hair style told their marital status. The Muslim Women dressed like those in Yemen.



Love the hair on the woman on the right.



Unmarried. You can tell by the hair being parted in the middle.

[baldguy]

7. +1

"...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[Speck Tater]

9. I should be allowed to wear a ski mask for my DMV photo, and my passport photo, right? nt

[eShirl]

12. silly straw man

[pnwmom]

15. No, it's not. Some Burqa wearing women in the U.S. have objected to

having their pictures taken with their faces exposed -- and have lost, as they should. No woman should be driving in a burqa because it restricts vision, and it would prevent others from identifying the woman if there were an accident.

[eShirl]

38. so banning the burqa would affect that particular issue how?

[Speck Tater]

45. You didn't really read the post you're replying to, did you? nt

[alfredo]

23. It depends on what you look like ;)

[Speck Tater]

62. I was pretty handsome till I hit 65. :) nt

[alfredo]

64. Those full length mirrors destroy any illusions of virility.

I turned 65 this year.

[Speck Tater]

76. Ilooked in the mirror after a shower a few years back and laughed.

Damn! I realized that I had become one of those dumpy old men I used to laugh at when I was younger. What a hoot that realization was!

[alfredo]

77. Mine gets steamed up. It probably does that out of self defense.

[Tailormyst]

68. But women in Burkas do not have that choice

They don't even have the choice to tell you that they don't have that choice.

I realize people somehow think they are standing up for freedom and choice, but in all actuality, burkas are worse then chains. It's not about just the item of clothing. It is about everything connected to it.

Do you know how many women douse themselves with lamp oil and set themselves on fire after being brought back to Afghanistan or NW pakistan after spending time in Iran? They had a tiny taste of sun on their face, of being able to speak, or being able to walk down a street alone or with a girlfriend. They decided burning to death was better then going back to a life worse then slavery.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Haley Barbour should wear two.

[leftynyc]

6. Of course I would

Why on earth wouldn't I? It may not be politically correct to say so but not all cultures are worthy of respect.

[Speck Tater]

8. What if a million men started wearing burkas?

Possibly with shotguns hidden underneath them.
What if they all walked into banks wearing them, possibly with shotguns underneath.

It's a public security issue as much as anything else. What would their drivers license pictures look like? Anybody could get away with impersonating anybody else. You checkbook gets stolen, but since you wear a burka photo ID is a joke, and anyone else could don a burka and impersonate you and take all your money out of the bank. Of course women who wear burkas are not allowed, by that same repressive culture, to have their own bank accounts.

And yes, OUR culture should be respected by foreign visitors. After all, they expect us to respect their culture when we visit them.

But aside from all that, it's OK if they want to repress women in their own country (well, not really, but as liberals we have to say it's OK or risk being politically incorrect), but we shouldn't stand for repression of women in our country.

[RB TexLa]

42. No one has to assimilate to anyone else's culture in the US

Their culture is equal to yours here.

[Speck Tater]

44. But if enough muslim women moved there then

bank robbers and terrorists could disguise themselves as Muslim women. It's a simple security problem. It's not safe to have people running wound in public wearing disguises. The ability to be identified is part of what keeps us civilized. Ever notice how uncivilized people become on the Internet when they can hide behind anonymity?

[Speck Tater]

47. So if my culture allows child pornography in my country then my culture is equal here?

I don't think so. There is such a thing as right and wrong. Not all cultures are equal, and not all cultures deserve respect. Cultures that violate basic human rights should not be respected. Cultures that exercise ethnic cleansing should not be respected. Cultures that abuse and violate the basic rights of women and children should not be respected. Cultures that permit and even encourage child labor practices should not be respected. Cultures that recruit 10-year olds to carry arms in battle should not be respected. Cultures that encourage children to strap on body bombs and become martyrs should not be respected.

[RB TexLa]

51. Wearing certain articles of clothing isn't the same as criminal acts

that you described, it's just something you don't like.

[riderinthestorm]

52. Clothing (or the lack thereof) can be both cultural and criminal as well all know.

There are all sorts of cultural traditions that have been outlawed in the US like FGM for example or going topless by women virtually anywhere. You are not by law, allowed to wear a mask into a bank as another example.

[okie]

74. Your 'culture' has killed millions of Muslims in the last two decades

Millions. Think about that. Enough with this talk of who should be 'respected'. This is no different than listening to a mustachioed Brit in a pith helmet huffing about 'civilizing the brutes'.

[LanternWaste]

53. Then you believe nuns should not be allowed to wear the habit, wimple and veil?

Then you believe nuns should not be allowed to wear the habit, wimple and veil in public?

If not, what is the precise and relevant difference in security concerns...?

[riderinthestorm]

54. Nun's habit does not cover the face.

I would also state that the modern nun's habit isn't anything like a full body shroud - it's more like a tailored suit.

[okie]

73. I don't like this argument

Making this an issue of public safety automatically places burqa-clad women on the 'outside'. From the start of the discussion we're comparing women to balaclava wearing criminals. I think that's dangerous. I suppose someone could steal your checkbook and PIN number and take your money, but this is no different than run of the mill identity theft, and banks have ways of dealing with that. And yes, women who wear burqas often do have bank accounts (and jobs!).

I don't know what 'our culture' is supposed to be. If you automatically define women in burqas as being outside it, then I think you're just playing a rhetorical trick.

I agree with you that we shouldn't stand for oppression of women, but wouldn't a burqa wearing women feel oppressed by a state (comprised mostly of old white dudes) telling her what to wear? Can you see how wagging fingers at Muslims might blind liberals in Western nations to the ways we demean and oppress women?

[Javaman]

16. Deodorant sales would skyrocket! nt

[slackmaster]

20. If if a half a million women in Mississippi started wearing Burkas, I wouldn't be surprised

[kiva]

21. Don't know about everyone else, but I would.

Why would you think we wouldn't, unless you're just making a 'slam the south' post? :shrug:

[depakid]

27. "Would the same DUers who support European bans be supporting the governor of Mississippi"

No, but I can guarantee that if a certain politician encouraged Burkha wearing, there'd be some DUer's posting about the beneficial effect on skin cancer rates around the nation.

[jp11]

31. I would.

But not based on the governor's culture being respected but on issues of people, really anyone running around with a mask on, hiding their identity.

[Greyhound]

34. Assuming that they started wearing them to avoid torture and death, Yes. n/t

[pitohui]

35. it isn't ok for women to be slaves in any country

burkas should be banned in every country, but we have limited influence over, say, saudi arabia because we'd rather buy their oil than drill our own apparently, so they will continue to have de facto slavery of women there

certainly we should not allow women to be enslaved anywhere we have influence, be it europe, be it mississippi

i do not respect, nor should i respect, any culture that as part of its culture supports the slavery of women (or any other person)

haley barbour is a joke, and god answered his "day of prayer" on sunday by sending the oil to slop up on deer island, etc. -- it's too bad that grown men still have to pretend to believe in the god hoax rather than trying to be good, decent, and effective adults, but the intelligence of the governor of mississippi is a debate for another day -- i won't say he's deliberately evil (altho he may be), i'll say that he basically just panderers to the lowest and least intelligent element

if that low, least intelligent element suddenly wanted to put women in burkas, then it would need to be stopped, of course...

what is the point of this question? putting women behind the veil is just wrong, it's evil, it's wrong, it isn't like this is a question with two sides, IT IS WRONG

[raccoon]

39. It would make more sense if a half million women in MN or ND started wearing burkas.

It isn't so flipping hot there.

[riderinthestorm]

40. Mississippi doesn't have a culture of face covering, misogynistic garments

that are specific to one gender designed to erase them from society, prohibit them from working or driving, or staying "safe" while out in public (those garments are like eye-candy for predators - no peripheral vision, bulky garments easy to grab and pin down a victim, no easy to way to run, kick or fight back....). In fact, Mississippi doesn't have a culture that embraces face covering in the least. Mississippi like most western cultures specifically dislikes, distrusts and in many areas it's illegal to wear a face covering.

So since Mississippi doesn't have that kind of culture, and neither does Europe, this is a strawman argument of the highest order. Good luck with that.

[okie]

71. What is Mississippi culture?

Who's included?

[nonconformist]

41. Yes. nt

[AngryAmish]

43. Many women in my neighborhood wear burkas

Well, if not the burka it is the robe that covers everything but the face.

How do I feel about it? I kinda feel sorry for them trudging around in huge black robes in 95 degree heat with 80% humidity. Must be hot as hell.

I don't interact with them. It is kinda off - putting.

[Tailormyst]

70. The burqa represents something 100 times more extreme

The rules that go along with the burqa would be something most of us would rather die then ever have to endure. I think people do not realize how bad it is for women under the taliban.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. If a woman CHOSE to wear one I would support her choice

I'm kind of like that.

But I will say this at the threat of being impolitic: sometimes certain sects of Islam do not lend themselves to allowing the woman to do what she feels is in her own best interest.

Victorian-era women were similarly kept "modest" for her "protection" when the reality was her protectors were her oppressors all in the same stroke.

[apocalypsehow]

63. Affirmative. n/t.

[Bert]

65. It's called misogeny

I'll bet there were some slaves who thought they had it good after a lifetime of brainwashing. It is dehumanizing and torture. End of discussion. Anyone tries to put it on any woman in my family and they wont need a law to ban it.

[Tailormyst]

67. Yes I would

Burkas are not worn because women all of a sudden choose to be silent, invisable slaves. They are worn because the men in their lives demand their invisability, silence and total servitude. They are raised to think this is normal. Ones who spent a couple of years in the Liberal country of Iran have set themselves on fire after returning to Afgahnistan where they are required to wear the burka and edure all that go with it.

This is NOT about a fucking piece of cloth.

Do some reading. Get educated on what life is like for women under the Taliban.