Anyone else think it's getting to the time

[socialist_n_TN]

when we get back out in the streets? I'm pushing 60 and I haven't done any street activism since my early 20s, but DAMN.......

The capitalists and their paid for toadies in the Senate don't even seem to TRY and hide their contempt for the working class and average Americans anymore. Working within the system is SO slow and uncertain and the corporations seem to be accelerating their takeover. There's a time for more direct, nonviolent action and that time might be NOW.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

[closeupready]

1. Yep. Frankly, surprised this hasn't happened already, what with unemployment as it is.

Plenty of young people with time on their hands (and I don't mean that derisively).

[Dr Morbius]

16. It's the internet. The outraged have an outlet.

If they do away with net neutrality, it's likely that this outlet will become insufficient and Americans will start demonstrating in the streets. Absent the internet, I think millions of Americans would have been demonstrating against Bush and his follies in the gulf region.

[closeupready]

22. I see - that's probably it. And then the PTB's toadies come here and dismiss us as "only on DU"

n/t

[rucky]

44. What a waste of a perfect organizing tool.

but I'm afraid you're right.

[happy_liberal]

45. DU and the internet are the perfect organizing tools

Remember Cindy Sheehan and the stand in Texas? That was fully supported by DUers, people were sending money, supplies, people were joining in, writing blogs etc. and that was a huge news story for weeks.

Cindy did manage to get some air time and some much needed discussion of the war in Iraq.

but what happened? A very orchestrated attempt to divide and conquer which has worked smashingly. People attacked Cindy for any and every little thing she said, now no one posts about her and what she is up to and she won't come to the site because people here were so mean.

We need to be working together, now who I wonder, would attempt to divide and conquer the people who might protest?


Cindy already had one camp out in front of the white house that very few attended, but she is trying again July 4.

It is time for all Americans to converge on DC.

[defendandprotect]

169. Agree . . . Michael Moore, Kucinich, Cindy Sheehan, Code Pink, Oliver Stone, Wm. Greider...

and many, many more should all be enemies of the GOP/right wing --

not Democrats on DU!! That's nuts!

And why does it allegedly happen? Because there are some here at DU who

want to shun the news -- not hear about it!!

And certainly not hear diverse opinions!

What a sad joke on freedom of speech!

[dorkulon]

94. Don't forget TV. Not an outlet, just a mind-erasing drug everyone's hooked on.

I wonder how many people would be politically active if they didn't have cable.

[OneGrassRoot]

101. Wow, that's a very interesting observation.

That makes a lot of sense. :hi:

[jwirr]

131. Good observation.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

160. What is net neutrality anyhow?

I truly don't know exactly what is meant by that phrase.:shrug:

[Tesha]

248. Roughly, "net neutrality" means that all the Internet Service Providers...

...must carry all Internet traffic without any regard for what the traffic
is or from where (e.g, from which web site) it originates.

If it doesn't exist then if your network provider is, say, Comcast,
they'd be able to slow down Internet traffic coming from internet
sites other than Comcast so you'll prefer to watch their TV programs
instead of, say, YouTube's, use their search engine instead of
Google's, etc. etc.

In the most egregious situation, perhaps they wouldn't even let
you connect to certain sites, say, Democratic Underground.

Tesha

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

265. Thank you.

eom

[MoonRiver]

256. Interesting take.

But, the Internet does not feed families or pay mortgages and medical bills.

[Grinchie]

295. You are wrong, the Internet can and does provide all the information you need to learn how.

The internet is a wonderful source of information and knowledge. It just takes skill to sift through the mountains of data, that sometimes is very wrong, but most of the time is just a copy of a book that has been out of print for 40 or 50 years, and is the last evidence available on how Grandpa and Grandma managed to live through the Depression.

It can teach you methods of balancing your budget, or getting your insurance company to pay up on your claim, or it can teach you ways to make money, furniture, reaise chickens, identify plants, grow food, teach chemistry, mettallurgy, Masonry, timber framing, timber felling, surveying, and about a zillion other subjects that are required to actually be able to provide for yourself, and make or save money.

Of course, it helps to have a brain like a sponge, but anyone can use the internet.

Make an effort to learn one new thing a day, and if you are not able to find the time, or you are exhausted from work, research the ingrediant in the food you eat if you are not convinced Organic food is better..

[pauldg0]

84. A way to filibuster those repucks....

I think Obama is going to step in on this worker aids mess. Nevertheless a 10- million man rally would open some eyes. They...the repucks would definitely worry about the upcoming elections with a show of strength like that.

[NorthCarolina]

109. 15, 000 + Progressives meeting in Detroit isn't exactly chopped liver.

Just because the media doesn't cover it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[obxhead]

125. It's not that there are no protests, but the fact that the MSM

will only cover the tea party protests. Even when there are anti tea party gatherings right next to the wackos the cameras steer clear.

[defendandprotect]

171. That's also true, but ....

there are ways of protesting -- organized and yet person by person --

shutting off lights for an hour at prearranged times --

pulling your car off the road for 10-15 minutes at prearranged times --

wear MEDICARE FOR ALL buttons --

Talking "politics" with your fellow citizens as you go about your daily affairs --

NOT support corporate wealth - not creating more of it --

Credit card companies issue the plastic and send us all out into the streets every day!

To earn money for them!

Same with bank cards which are adding fees to every transaction --

These are very simple things to discuss and begin to act upon!

And I'm sure others here would have heaps of other ideas -- !!??

:)

[William Z. Foster]

273. so what?

Why do people think we need mass media attention? I don't understand that.

This is like saying "if only that con man were not a crook, I wouldn't keep getting ripped off playing his game."

Reality is not what happens on TV, it is out here in the real world. The reason the rulers need to control the media is because they are weak, not because they are strong.

It is not the mass media that is holding us back, it is our obsession with the mass media.

[obxhead]

278. I was just saying that protests do occur, they just get no

publicity so very few actually see/hear about the protest.

I am in no way saying they should not take place or that they are even a waste of time.

They do need mass media attention though. The entire point of a protest is to draw attention to a subject of deep concern to people. Especially if it is a national issue that the protest is about.

[William Z. Foster]

280. maybe

I am not convinced of the importance of drawing attention to a subject of deep concern to people. There are many other reasons to march.

Thinking about this, I do think there are a few people, mostly fairly upscale intellectuals who say that if they saw masses in the street, that then they would be in support, although I don't know of what value their support would be exactly. We are supposed to think that it is very important, I guess.

So...if the corporate owned mass media would ever cover rallies, then a certain influential segment of the population would be impressed, and as a result of that they would be "right there with us," and that may or may not be of any value.

[pecwae]

298. "It is not the mass media that is holding us back,

it is our obsession with the mass media." We have to know that it isn't an accident that progressive street protests don't get coverage, so why obsess over it? We show our own weakness by letting other things control us and making excuses for why we do so.

[liberalmike27]

286. To people that only watch television media

and listen to radio media, it means exactly that it never happened, to them anyway. It's just like people who watch FOX, or listen to 95 percent of the right-wing radio have no idea what's really happening.

It's why someone can actually run for president, or anything now, without even going on a station that will ask them critical and probing questions, as if any of them really do that anyway.

[socialist_n_TN]

304. Hey brother! Thanks for the input.............

And it's a good point. It's probably not a major deal, but mass media is just that, mass. The potential is there to move more people over to our views in a shorter time frame.

[newspeak]

308. That's true

one hundred teabaggers get together and the news is on it. Now, I wonder why?

[defendandprotect]

162. There is some ongoing effort to UNIONIZE unemployed . HERE'S LINK ....

Laid Off? Join 31 million unemployed Americans - UCubed ...
Nearly 27 million Americans are unemployed or can't find more than part-time work. ... There are way too many things that can affect a credit report, like ...
unionofunemployed.com/blog/recent-news/... - Cached

http://www.unionofunemployed.com/



for more info --

Much Fewer than 10% of Americans are Unemployed
The United States Census Bureau says that 15 million Americans are unemployed. ... Millions of Americans are not in the labor force: many of them are ...
wallstreetpit.com/15528-much-fewer-than-10-percent-of-americans-are... - 53k - Cached

http://wallstreetpit.com/15528-much-fewer-than-10-percent-of-americans-are-unemployed

[KansDem]

2. No...

Am I the only one who feels this way?

I'm rather flummoxed at the lack of street protests and activism. If BP had happened during the late '60s, there uproar would have been deafening! Of course, that was before the Taser and other crowd-controlling devices...

[closeupready]

10. Right, I meant 'no', not 'yep.'

lol

[NOLALady]

12. IIRC, They had their share of crowd controlling devices.

Guns, dogs, hoses....

[KansDem]

29. But add to those Tasers, sonic canons, pepper spray, and cops running amok...

...and we have an even greater threat of violence.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. Unfortunately, violence against us has

ALWAYS been a possibility and occasionally a probability. But then again, the capitalists are waging a constant war against us anyway that could turn violent at any time. Ultimately it wouldn't be much different. Just the timing. The capitalists are coming for you anyway, sooner or later.

[defendandprotect]

164. Corporate Crusades use same patterens as Christian Crusade . . . same violence ...

and it is internatioal --

French are under severe pressure right now --

and 1 million out in streets the other day --

didn't see anything about that here at DU???

DU posting of news seems to have suffered some -- thought it was the

summer -- but thought that last year as well --

I'll see if I can find anything left of that story --!!

[William Z. Foster]

88. ...and the greatest barrier

Our fear.

That is the purpose of the weapons. Intimidation.

The greatest barriers are in our minds.

[defendandprotect]

166. Torture was reintroduced, IMO, specifically for that reason . . .

they say that it isn't ever really about those being tortured, but

meant to keep others from joining in --

it works!

[William Z. Foster]

188. great point

Exactly right and this is true in so many areas. We have all sorts of "liberals" and "progressives," for example, attacking immigrants. Can't they see that what the government is doing to immigrants affects us all? That it is a warning, a threat to all of us?

[SJC55]

220. They have their heads in the sand

They think they will be spared, because they donated to the Empire's coffers.

[defendandprotect]

227. Absolutely correct . . . . a threat to all of us and our freedoms . . .

[Raksha]

233. Intimidation--no question about that! It works for all but the most dedicated activists.

My daughter's blog...

http://wildandserene.blogspot.com/2010/03/live-from-minneapolis.html

In the video, the young man in the pink shirt being beaten and tasered by the cops is her fiance Jason. It was one of many atrocities and instances of harassment at the RNC in 2008.

I believe the real purpose of this organized and clearly premeditated show of force (aka police brutality) is to discourage other would-be activists from taking to the streets. To discourage them from even thinking about it.

[virgogal]

3. People vent on the internet today,not on the streets. Kinda sad.

[defendandprotect]

165. Think there are also positives in it -- think more and more people are

coming to understand what has really happened in America because

of the internet -- much more information circulating than ever before.

The history of this nation and its imperialism as never before!!

Try this --

http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/06/26

You know how many Americans prior to the internet and Michael Moore's

documentaries really weren't aware of the CIA coups all over the world

for corporate interests?

[William Z. Foster]

239. politics is driven by ideas

I think we have far too much "do something!" and not enough "listen, think something and say something."

The problem is not with our actions, it is in our thinking. The problem is not in getting our message out, it is in having a message that is worth getting out.

More listening, more thinking, more talking, and less action for the sake of action is what is needed. Small independent actions can have enormous effect - the three young men who sat in at a lunch counter for example and ignited the Civil Rights movement. We cannot know in advance what will work.

We have been approaching politics backward. We need to listen first, and then speak. We need to take people where they are, not try to drag them where we want them to be. Political elections are an effect of the national political discussion. If all we are talking about is political elections, there can be no politics. Partisan electoral politics are an effect of social and political change, they cannot cause social and political change.

[bobbolink]

244. "a message that is worth getting out" Exactly.

A lot of that is because there is this push to come up with one more rally, one more protest, rather than switching gears and paying attention to those on the bottom rung of the ladder.

People are so gung-ho to boycott Walmart, but if you get to know the people there, and listen, you find that they really do understand the damage the corporations are doing. By listening to them, and bringing them together, there could be some real power in the efforts, rather than ever more complex costumes to wear to protests.

[demwing]

4. You know, I'm 47, just unemployed,

and about to become homeless in Florida. I'm thinking of getting radically involved as well. The worst that could happen would be prison, and at least I'd have food, a roof, a bed, and a dental plan.

[Angry Dragon]

6. Health care too

[defendandprotect]

167. UNIONIZING the unemployed . . . link here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8634752&mesg_id=8640599

[liberalmike27]

287. The future holds

targeted, specific, private acts, directed at the offenders.

[Angry Dragon]

5. How about a 10 million person march on DC??

From all corners of this country.

So they can really see that they are not getting the job done

[socialist_n_TN]

7. Yep. 10 million actually IN the streets in DC

would mean about 40 or 50 million (at LEAST) that would be supporters, but couldn't come out. Anybody know how to organize something like that? Let the "liberal" media ignore THAT.

[jtuck004]

13. This was mentioned in another forum

we have 15 million unemployed people to draw on, plus another 15 million that are underemployed.

We need a web site and a little funding - I wonder if Soros could gain something by this, perhaps enough to invest in the idea?

It will be summer, so water and food, would have to arrange for medical care.

Maybe get everyone singing songs from the IWW songbook?

Gonna take a lot of consciousness-raising to overcome what is out there, but it is doable.

[socialist_n_TN]

23. I would vote for "Get Up, Stand Up" by

Bob Marley and Peter Tosh for the song. That's one that transcends generations.

How about parade permits in DC. Anybody here have any experience in that?

My wife and daughter are both RNs and our Nurse Practitioner is "so far left, I can't even make a right turn." I'll do my best to help organize something like this, but I don't have a lot of experience. I've always been one of those, "Tell me when and where to show up." type of people.

[Angry Dragon]

26. The only way to get the government to listen

is by fear. They understand nothing except money and fear.
If they knew that 10 million people were walking into DC
they would become afraid.

It is time to take the country back and once again make it of and for the people.
We are the government and it is ours.

[DiehardLiberal]

93. Plus how many of we small business owners who are hanging by a very thin thread?

And have no hope of income if our businesses go under... I'm a 62 yr old widow and scared to death!

[Scuba]

33. There would not be room on the tube for the 10 million...

...protesters as the airtime will be filled with coverage of 17 Tea Party members having a picnic.

[Enthusiast]

100. They might ignore it.

At least there would be a concerted attempt to play it down. Like in the 1960s anti-war protests by hundreds of thousands that were a "bunch of radicals".

[defendandprotect]

173. The important thing is for the public, in general, to begin to become aware that

protest is occurring -- you don't need TV to do that --

Talk to your fellow citizens -- talk politics --

Various things that can be done that millions can join in --

like turning off lights and any electronic devices for an hour or so at a pre-arranged time -

like taking your car off the road for 10 minutes at a prearranged time --

Many, many ways to do that --

We also have to realize that we are being purposefully deprived of leadership --

Needless to say, the right wing political violence of the last 50 years had done that --

but now they no longer wait until someone like MLK, Jr. is actually leading a movement!

[Enthusiast]

179. Thanks. nt

[Doctor_J]

194. This would be ignored unless

we actually take back a piece of what is ours by force. Even the most starry-eyed among you must see at this point that we need to inflict some honest-to-God fear into the reps, lobbyists, and Big Media terrorists.

[closeupready]

11. I would march, if this were to happen.

n/t

[Angry Dragon]

24. That is at least 3 now to get more

[jtuck004]

40. Heck , that's a committee ;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=114&topic_id=79879&mesg_id=79884

see paragraph 3.

[Amaril]

333. I doubt I would be able to march

......unless it happened on a weekend and was within driving distance of south Florida -- the company I work for is in its final death throes (we're still hoping for a miracle, but those are in fairly short supply these days - we've got *maybe* 3 - 6 months till we join the unemployed ranks) and as one of the skeleton crew of people still here, getting time off is just not going to happen right now (I even had to miss my son's graduation from Air Force basic training) -- but I can definitely be counted on for whatever support is needed -- cash (I don't have much, but will give what I can), food, supplies, whatever.

[demwing]

71. YES, but it must be defined positivel

a march FOR some thing, not against.

What - EXACTLY - would we march for?

[socialist_n_TN]

87. Downthread there was a suggestion

to make it an INCLUSIVE leftist issues march. Social justice, enviroment, LGBT, worker's rights. All supporting EACH OTHER. Because frankly, that's the only way we're going to beat those capitalist fuckers. No matter how you feel about socialists or gays or Latinos, blacks, whites, etc. suck it up and SUPPORT THE LEFT! ALL of the left.

Separating us from each other is the ONLY way the capitalist can keep their power.

[William Z. Foster]

89. yes

Imagine if the Civil Rights movement had been fragmented like this:

- The right to sit at a lunch counter movement

- The right to ride on the bus movement

- The right to vote movement

- The fair housing movement

- The equal opportunity for jobs movement

- The equal schools movement

And so forth.

Imagine if each one had its own fancy non-profit organization working on it's cause in isolation, raising funds, speaking truth to power, and "educating" people. Imagine if people made lifetime careers out of running those organizations, and spent most of their time hob-nobbing with the powerful.

Imagine if arguments broke out with people saying "just because I disagree with you on some of those, how dare you say I am not in the Civil Rights movement?" What if people told those in the "lunch counter" movement - "don't get me wring, I support your cause BUT..." What if people said about some of those things "that is not a priority right now?" What if people said "who is to say that opposition to equal voting rights means someone is not in the Civil Rights movement? What makes you the one to decide these things?" or "I am sick of these purity tests with people trying to be more Civil Rights than thou?" What if people said "yeah, but that list of things is not practical or realistic. You are advocating violent revolution, and count me out. You extremists with your utopian visions are as dangerous as the racists and segregationists!" What if people said "it is all fine to be for equality, but I would like to see some practical plans!" What if people said "I think the Democratic party is better on race issues than the Republican party, so we should focus on getting Democrats elected. If we don't get people in power we cannot do anything." What if people said "we don't have any access to the media, so it is hopeless" or "the other side has all of the guns and dogs and fire hoses, so we are over matched and there will just be violence?"

That is the situation we are in, that is what we are doing, and had the people in the Civil Rights movement done what we are doing, and thought the way we are thinking, the movement would have failed.

[demwing]

106. A Solidarity March?

We the people, in order to form a more perfect union...

[bobbolink]

151. "Imagine".....

People say ALL of those things to me about poverty.... this isn't the time, there are other issues more important, "poor people don't vote" (false, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it), and on and on. Now I am hearing that the Gulf is more important.

It will ALWAYS BE SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN POVERTY.

Yet, we poor people are expected to vote for THEIR causes, and to be on THEIR side.

Nope.

Not anymore.

I used to devote time and effort to other causes because I thought it would come back, but it doesn't and I'm not the only poor person to give up on supporting other causes.

Let me know when this changes. Until then, I am a one-issue person.

Period.

[defendandprotect]

175. Agree . . .

and someone posted something here the other day about Obama taking some

action on "homeless" -- still haven't seen anything on it -- but keep hoping

because it's definitely been ignored --

in fact, it's been so ignored it's almost starting to seem normal!!

[Raksha]

236. Absolutely true: "United we stand, divided we fall."

Re "Imagine if arguments broke out with people saying "just because I disagree with you on some of those, how dare you say I am not in the Civil Rights movement?" What if people told those in the "lunch counter" movement - "don't get me wring, I support your cause BUT..." What if people said about some of those things "that is not a priority right now?" What if people said "who is to say that opposition to equal voting rights means someone is not in the Civil Rights movement? What makes you the one to decide these things?" or "I am sick of these purity tests with people trying to be more Civil Rights than thou?"

The PTB already divides right-wing populism from left-wing populism very effectively by using abortion as a wedge issue. That's true for religion in general but specifically when it comes to abortion. Or at least they did in the past--I'm not sure how well it's working any more. I mean...seeing as how you can be as fanatically pro-life as you want, but and it still won't keep you from being unemployed and foreclosed on. Or poisoned with toxic dispersants.

[William Z. Foster]

274. great point

"You can be as fanatically pro-life as you want, but and it still won't keep you from being unemployed and foreclosed on."

Politics is about power and resources, not beliefs. The reality of losing power and access to resources trumps the fantasy world of beliefs sooner or later, and inevitably. The politics of personal beliefs is all a sideshow to distract people from deteriorating material conditions in objective reality.

Religion is about beliefs. Politics is about power. Beliefs are optional - a matter of personal choice. Power is not. Those in power will starve, imprison and murder you no matter what your beliefs may be.

[defendandprotect]

221. Absolutely . . . I've been after that for 20 years . . . evidently, they fear

that if they unite it will harm individual fund raising!!

SUPPORT ALL OF THE LEFT!!!

Loved that about the NAACP -- when they spoke for themselves, they also made it

a point to speak for other minorities -- and for women -- and for homosexuals --

for the poor -- the impoverished -- women's rights --

they know!


And there are huge natural resources in the unemployed and the improverished --

homeless -- the rest of us could finance that movement!!

[Grinchie]

95. No need to march.

Just post a private property sign and stay inside your house.

Thats part of the constitution and the PTB can't violate it without a warrant.

If 20 Million did that, and just spent time with the family for 2 weeks, the PTB would be shitting in their "Ooops I crapped My Pants" brand adult diapers.

[marions ghost]

104. Do both--those who can should go to Washington and

those who prefer to stay home and not go out for two weeks could do that.

If enough did both, it would send a very powerful message.

[Grinchie]

187. I suppose, but personally, I'd rather not be photographed and categorized

In some NSA Datingbase.

The Power of the Dollar is all these miscreants care about. They know that people marching on Washington will need food, clothing, water, shelter, shoes, and extra set of batteries for their cameras and cell phones.. Ad Nauseum..

That really doesn't suppress consuming does it?

[socialist_n_TN]

197. We're probably ALL already in some NSA data base

I figure if they want me they'll get me whether it's on the street marching for a cause or in the middle of the night at my house.

[Grinchie]

203. Yep, nothing to be afraid about.

But why make it easy for them?

[marions ghost]

199. everybody's categorized anyway

If it's a big enough crowd, who cares?

You really do think there's no point to anything...:shrug:

[Grinchie]

205. Everything is connected, but the answer is "Follow the Money"

A march is like an economic stimulus plan on a small scale.

[defendandprotect]

222. There are other ways to do it . . ..

I've been to many DU marches and never made sense to me -- except that I've watched

some of them -- huge - one million move like a silk scarf. It can be done!

Still at dusk in one march not everyone had passed the White House!!

They've reintroduced police brutality, free speech zones -- and torture to frighten

the public. That's what torture is always about.

Anyone who is using a credit card they pay for each month -- or ATM from their check

can stop using it. Corporations mail out those little plastic cards and sit back while

we all go out and earn money for them by using them!!

American Express add 7.5% and more to each transaction --

Other credit cards 3.5% -- adds an expense to every purchase you make!


Also there are many ways to protest without going into streets --

turning off electricity for a hour at a prearranged time --

taking your car off the road for 10 minutes or more at a prearranged time --

Prearranged days when we don't SHOP in malls/department stores --

Prearranged days when we don't buy gasoline --

And many more ideas like that --

CALL LABOR STRIKES -- you don't have to be unionized to protest -- call a strike for

two hours on a prearranged day -- all labor walk out into streets -- 1pm to 3pm ...

Talk to your fellow human being about politics -- and listen to what they have to say.

Americans are opening up more -- many families have unemployed members.

Grads can't get jobs -- teenagers can't get summere work.

Americans are losing faith in higher education because they can't afford it any more!

It's becoming elite paper again!


Wear bottons -- MEDICARE FOR ALL --

PROTECT SOCIAL SECURITY/MEDICARE --

Help to organize the unemployed --

Help to organize Senior Citizens -- all they have is AARP which is an insurance company!!

[Grinchie]

242. All fantastic ideas K/R

On a side note, I experienced the shakedown of California by Enron first hand. I recall one hot summer day at 2:00PM when the electricity was turned off for a large area that I was working in. We were told to go home.

Well, the streets were jammed with people strugling to get through inoperative signals. It was massive gridlock, and people tried to make their way home, all at once, without any traffic signals.

If you wanted to get off the road and get a cold drink at the local 7/11, you couldn't because the people running the place were not able to use paper receipts, and were totally dependant on the cash register. They could not comprehend writing a receipt by hand, so they closed their doors, while all the ice and ice cream melted away...

It was that tragic day that I made my mind up to quit California, because of the demonstrated fragility of the system. It's all very fragile and delicate, and all it takes is some Corporate manipulation, such as Enron's to turn a city into a chaotic hell hole.

Nobody seems to remember any of this, as it occurred under Dubya/Cheney, but I sure the hell do. It is burned in my memory like yesterday, and if it could happen then, it can happen again. I no longer depend on these so called "Always On" services anymore, and I always have backups to cover extended outages.

Of course Enron existed long before Dubya made it into office, and they even got the CFTA (The Enron Loophole) installed under Clinton, so there you have it.

It was estimated that the outage that day caused hundreds of millions of dollars of lost revenue for small businesses, as well as lost wages for the people sent home to clog the streets.

[defendandprotect]

316. Thank you -- I wasn't aware of Enron until the scandal . . . I did watch the hearing ....

and saw the rip off of California wealth -- the pensions --

the individual people harmed --

and knew of course of the stress that Californians were living under --

it was the same crap as the Carter "oil shortage" --

but this info doesn't come out immediately -- long after the Enron hearings --

and long after the 1970's "oil shortage" did we get the truth!

Don't know if there were ever any records that came out similar to those of Enron

showing their arrogance in plotting those "shortages."

And so little happened as far as accountability for the corporation and the executives

involved!! Still shocking.

Meanwhile, we all have to remember that pretty much everything ends with a electrical

plug at the end. Peak oil will mean tremendous new costs for oil -- and we are certainly

being prevented from planning for that time -- and prevented from gaining alternative

energy. That's more than obvious!



:)

[urgk]

121. It needs to be branded. Like "The Tea Party," but with integrity rather than ignorance.

That's the one thing the republicans are better at consistently - using Frank Luntz and the like to brand legislation, movements and ideas so that they are catchy, instantly recognizable and memorable.

The million man march was good, but the idea is played out. We need a new brand, a national banner that is historic, noble, serious and unifying. We need one solid, consistent message that the media can't ignore.

[socialist_n_TN]

129. Solidarity Movement...............

and Solidarity March. That's a cause we should ALL support and that is supporting each other.

[defendandprotect]

178. The right wing CREATES T-baggers -- pays for them -- it's something that liberals/

progressives have to understand --

Listen to what Cheney has told you very clearly ...

"The right wing creates the reality, liberals live it!"

and take it seriously and literally --

No different from the faked GOP-sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting

in Miami Dade County! --


GOP gave start up funding for the Christian Coalition --
Right wing financed all of the American right wing movements -- organization by
organization -- they're all faked.
US right wing elements created the violent Islamic textbooks we heard so much about
from MSM -- and shipped them into ME trying to spread violent Islamic teachings.

Without 9/11 there could have been no wars in Afghanistan or Iraq for to control oil
and natural resources -- yet it was long a dream of the right wing/PNAC that there
would be such a "Pearl Harbor" incident --

Remember after the first attack on the WTC, Clinton was being pressured by these
right wing groups to attack Iraq!!

Of course, the computers are also an invaluable tool for the right wing --
the LARGE computers used by MSM began to come in during the mid-1960's --
until then MSM was only able to report actual vote tallies. Afterwards, they
could PREDICT and CALL elections -- and what they did in 2000 was simply reverse
those new powers.

The smaller voting computers began to come in during the late 1960's --
Coincidentally, just about the time America was passing The Voting Rights Act!

I'd question every election back to Nixon/Humphrey -- that was also a squeaker --
100,000 or 130,000 vote difference if I recall correctly.

[urgk]

251. I agree with you about the creation of reality.

Like I said, it's carefully constructed. But we don't have to lie to brand ourselves. We take the things we stand for and name them. "Yes, we can" is powerful, and it tapped into what already existed - a determined, honest, powerful group of Americans who wanted to make a difference, to end the slow slide downward into selfish, Republican, short-sighted nonsense.

[William Z. Foster]

257. don't even need to do that

Not only do we not need to brand and sell any ideas, we don't even need to name them. In fact, the moment we think that way we are divorced from reality.

"Yes we can" is powerful, when compared to other sales and marketing slogans - which are all opposed to the real thing.

[urgk]

270. I don't agree.

The Republicans have been incredibly successful selling bad ideas to the public, because they know how the collective American psyche works. Democrats would benefit from taking the good ideas - things that are morally and constitutionally right - and packaging them in a way that increases the speed at which they get absorbed and passed along.

You may not like or trust branding, but it works. Why else would anyone vote for the Constitution-limiting "Patriot Act?" Or "No Child Left Behind?" It's why we have the phrases "Death Tax" and "Pro Life?" Why does the "Moral Majority" have such power? Why does the Right push "Socialist"? "Obamacare"? "Real Americans"? "Government Takeover of Medicine"? "Socialized Medicine"? "Clean Coal"? "Drill, baby, drill?"

Because they work. Even when they're a facade for morally reprehensible tricks, they work.

To use words to help sell good ideas isn't just helpful, it's necessary.

Think:

Doctors without Borders.

Amnesty International.

"I have a dream."

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

[William Z. Foster]

275. the Republicans have no ideas

The branding and sales jobs are the only ideas they have.

This is a pitfall we are prone to. It is not so much important whether or not you believe the things Republicans sat=y as it is that you think they are ideas. It doesn't matter if you fall for their branding, so long as you think the branding is powerful and important.

Doctors without Borders, Amnesty International, and "I have a dream" are powerful because of what they stand for, not because the brand has nay intrinsic power. One slip and those slogans and brand names could become mud. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Hell you could make up and absurd and boring brand name - like, oh say "General Motors" - and it would not be a handicap.

"Packaging" what is morally and Constitutionally right? The only reason corporations, and Republicans, need to brand,m package, sell, promote and market shit is because it is shit that people would otherwise not want or need. What we are talking about is what people want and need.

The tools that Republicans and corporations use are not politically neutral. The method is the message, the only message. The method is the program, the only program. Using their methods supports them, and moves the fight onto their playing field where we can never win.

[urgk]

293. I mean this with all due respect, but you're wrong.

"The only reason corporations, and Republicans, need to brand,m package, sell, promote and market shit is because it is shit that people would otherwise not want or need. What we are talking about is what people want and need."

What I'm clearly failing to get across is this - voters are choosing things that are bad for them over what they actually need because the Republicans have better marketing. We are losing the information war because the other side has better branding. The Republicans convince their base, and just enough of the middle, that their short-sighted, misguided corporate-driven policy is best for the country.

-John Kerry is better for the country. George Bush is the politician Americans want to have a beer with. That's a marketing problem.
-Max Cleland lost because he was branded as unpatriotic. That's a marketing problem.
-At one point, (and maybe still), the majority of Americans were convinced that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. That's a marketing problem.
-Trickle down economics actually hurts the majority of the Republican base, yet they vote Republican. That's a marketing problem.

It just doesn't matter what's true or what's right if the American public doesn't consume that truth. They have to buy into it or it's just more noise.

[William Z. Foster]

312. good discussion

Thanks.

I will keep pressing my point, if I may.

Voters are not choosing things that are bad for them over what they actually need. They are getting no such choice. No one is talking about what people actually need. Even the most ardent loyalists in the party do not claim otherwise. Through some sort of convoluted and tricky logic, with long, esoteric, and complicated explanations, by citing achievements by the party 40 or 80 years ago, by falling back on "at least they are better than the Republican" - only by using all of that can people be persuaded that maybe somehow, someday the Democrats will be fighting for what the people actually need.

That is not a marketing problem; or rather, if it is a marketing problem then what I said in the last paragraph must be true. If that is true, then the problem is not marketing it is about where we stand, which side we are on, whom we represent. If we do not represent the working class people, but we need to convince them that we do, then that becomes a marketing problem, yes.

We are not losing the information war because the other side has better branding, we are losing the war because we have no message. The Republicans reliably and predictably and consistently do everything they possibly can to fight for the needs and desires of the wealthy few. They only brand and market and promote because they cannot tell the truth and win. On the other hand, we are not taking an aggressive and unambiguous stand for the working class people, we are not fighting for the working class people the way the Republicans are fighting for the wealthy and powerful few. If we were, there would be no need for branding and sales and marketing - we would be on the side of the working people and that would be much more important that the way we said that or marketed it. It would not need to be marketed.

You say that "the Republicans convince their base, and just enough of the middle, that their short-sighted, misguided corporate-driven policy is best for the country." There is no "base" worth talking about. Bush was telling the truth when he addressed a group of super-wealthy - "I think of you as my base. The haves, and the have-mores." That is the Republican base - a fraction of 1% of the population.

Approach this as a marketing problem, and we are sure to fail. The various examples you give for successful Republican marketing would not ever stand a chance of succeeding were their Democratic opponents fighting for the working class people.

I detect some contempt for the general public in this post, that you think people need to be tricked and fooled because they are not smart enough to hear or figure out the truth.

Marketing is predatory. It is incompatible with participatory democracy, incompatible with justice and equality. It is founded on the belief that everything can be bought and sold and that this is the only possible basis for social organization, even though it is very recent and very localized - modern commercialized upscale American society. Marketing approaches always favor those with the most power and resources. Marketing is buying people's attention because you can not get their intention legitimately and honestly.

Why does the general public votes against Democrats or not vote at all? Ask them. They see two parties, both trying to market to them, both preying on them, trying to bamboozle them. They see the new boss, same as the old boss. Why? because marketing is not politically benign, it is not a neutral tool. It is the voice of the overlords, it is the approach of those who wish to control and manipulate others and people can smell that a mile away.

[urgk]

319. Again, I disagree.

"Marketing is predatory. It is incompatible with participatory democracy, incompatible with justice and equality. It is founded on the belief that everything can be bought and sold and that this is the only possible basis for social organization, even though it is very recent and very localized - modern commercialized upscale American society. Marketing approaches always favor those with the most power and resources. Marketing is buying people's attention because you can not get their intention legitimately and honestly."

Marketing isn't fundamentally predatory. It's neither inherently good or bad. It's just a tool for generating interest and attention. Imagine it's a hand. It can wave hello, it can signal "c'mere," it can flip off its neighbor or it could slap the snot out of somebody. The intent coupled with the end use determines whether it's good or bad, not the hand itself.

"I detect some contempt for the general public in this post, that you think people need to be tricked and fooled because they are not smart enough to hear or figure out the truth. "

It's not contempt. Not at all. It's pragmatic analysis of the general state of the nation. If the truth always won out, simply by being the truth, if the american people simply knew what was right and let it guide their actions, there would be no Bush presidency, no Arizona immigration law, no battling over the fundamental right for health care. But that's not how things have happened. The Cheneys win because they tell such beautiful lies. The Roves gain power because they understand the power of what people want to hear versus what they need to hear. In the real world, the undersold truth loses out to a well-told fiction.

That's not contempt, it's just seeing what is.

[William Z. Foster]

321. of course it is

Marketing is for the purpose of targeting people and parting them from their money. If marketing were merely "a tool for generating interest and attention" it would not be based on the word "market."

I will give you but one of many examples. In farming, the public agencies like cooperative extension have been vastly more effective at getting the ideas, innovations and methods to people than marketing in the food industry or the tractor industry or the chemical industry have ever been, or ever could be. There is no comparison. Most of the marketing from those private agencies misinforms farmers and consumers, misleads them. It is intended to do that. Of course, we have had a strong public infrastructure ion farming so we have a basis for comparison. There is no question whatsoever that marketing is not in any way a neutral tool.

Bush and the like get into power because there is no strong left offering an alternative, not because the right wingers are some sort of marketing whizzes or geniuses. Do you know what they do? Throw any sort of crap they can dream up on the wall and see if it will stick. If they can get liberals and Democrats to take it seriously and try to counter it as though it were "ideas" that were being "effectively marketed," especially when they can get liberals to think in "free market" and advertising, marketing and promotion terms, they have won. Not so much because they rallied any base, not because they persuaded anyone about any "ideas," but rather because they were able to control and manage the response from the liberals and Democrats and to get liberals and Democrats lured out on to their playing field.

[urgk]

328. Wrong again.

But in the same way. I'm beginning to think that you misunderstand the concept of marketing entirely. Again, it's a tool, not a particular practice.

And you're completely off base with regard to the Republican party. I mean earth-shatteringly, utterly wrong. Look at this:

You say "not because the right wingers are some sort of marketing whizzes or geniuses" AND "they were able to control and manage the response from the liberals and Democrats and to get liberals and Democrats lured out on to their playing field." Loosely translated, you're saying "they're not good at marketing" and "they're great at marketing." It just doesn't make sense. They can't both be true.

I'm through with the thread. I'd keep it up if we were making headway, but I'm just spinning my wheels trying to convince you to believe something that you A) don't fundamentally understand (and I don't mean that with any maliciousness, just as a matter of fact) and that B) I know without a shadow of a doubt to be true.

If you're interested in learning more about it, try the following:

1. Words that Work. Frank Luntz (who is a genius, though he's on the wrong side)
2. Made to Stick. Chip and Dan Heath.
3. Don't Think of an Elephant. George Lakoff (find a synopsis here --> http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/dont-think-of-an-elephant-review/)

[socialist_n_TN]

331. I've had some disagreements with

William on this subject too. Don't let it get personal because he's a GREAT poster with some REALLY good ideas.

Call it education rather than marketing. Let the Republicans "market" while we educate the public about what they're (Republicans)are REALLY about (the haves and the have mores) AND about the areas that we DO stand with the working class against the capitalist oppressors. BTW as part of education, I probably wouldn't use MOST of those highly charged buzz words when I'm talking to politically naive people, i.e., most of the squishy middle.

Of course, it would be easier to educate the working class about the DIFFERENCES between the Ds and the Rs, IF the Ds stood WITH the workers in all areas and didn't play "Republican Lite" on too many issues.

[urgk]

334. Thanks.

There's just so much to be gained by talking/writing/educating in a way that generates the most resonance in the least possible time. We need the same system of spreading talking points, but from a point of honesty. If there's an analogy, for instance, that seems to convince or inoculate or cure the squishy middle (I like that phrase, by the way), then let's pass it around. There's nothing wrong with learning from our collective interactions and then passing them on as gained knowledge. It's what humans do.

Let's find the political equivalent of "catchy" and then make sure people hear it.

Let's beat them at their own game. For instance, let's all decide to say "Think, baby. Think." Just for a day. Hit the Republicans right in the soft spot; remind the public that there is a reason we want regulation, reason and forethought to drive our public policy. Let's have Biden say it on national TV. And Carville. Let's have Chris Matthews ask a question about it. And have Rachel Maddow title a segment with it. It's that solid wall of message that becomes part of the public discourse that lets the Republicans frame the debate.

They said "Kerry is a flip-flopper," and we said "Sure, Kerry is a flip-flopper, but..." That's where we need the media plan, the collective pundit response. We should have found a catchy way to say that Kerry adapts to new information. Like "when there's a fire, John Kerry puts down the hammer and picks up a hose. He thinks on his feet." Or something like it that resonated with the public. We'd be honest, but honest in concert, making a collective noise bigger than our own.

We are the party of ideas. What we need to become is the party of ideas that catch on.

[socialist_n_TN]

337. Well, I can think of a few things

But I'm not a big media person, so I don't know about getting it out there in all the media outlets.

However, talk "big business screwing the workingman" rather than "capitalist oppressors". Don't talk a about "class warfare" talk about "rich people (folks) screwing over the average guy just for a dollar". Play on that OLD saw (even though it's true) about the Republicans being the party of the rich. Even Bush said that. Ask them if they think that big business has THEIR best interests in mind. Remind the Christians you talk to that greed is a BAD thing according to their religion. If somebody talks about supporting Republicans, tell them how you understand because anybody making 250k per year NEEDS to support their rich buddies. Since most people that support the Republicans DON'T make that kind of money, hopefully that will make them think at least a little. I don't know. These are just a few things off of the top of my head, including some that I've actually used in one on one conversation.

Actually, this could be a thread all on it's own.

[urgk]

338. You are absolutely headed in the right direction.

We tell the truth, just collectively tell it the same way.

There was a thread during the '08 campaign where we talked about the Republican't party. One small step would be when we all talk to people on outside forums, or even in here, to use that term, rather than the long list of Repug, Rethug, etc. I mean what would happen if Democrats on the national scene who could -- Dean, Biden, Grayson, Carvillle -- made a concerted effort to mention the Republican't party. And then went on to explain why they say that. It could even be in reference to constituents - "Look, there's a reason my constituents have taken to calling them the Republican't party. They can't solve the financial meltdown, they can't fix healthcare, they can't regulate their friends in the oil industry..." etc. Or "people in the blogosphere have been calling them the "Republican'ts...."

I'd also like to see our talking heads pick up on "Think, baby, think." Especially now. For example "It's not 'drill, baby, drill,' we see what that's done in the gulf. It's 'think, baby, think.' This is what the Democratic party has always been about - making sure that businesses can make all the money they want, provided they don't hurt the American people . We're not anti-business, we're not pro-regulation, we're for doing whatever it takes to make sure oil is produced safely, that toxic stocks and Wall Street Gamblers don't take down the economy. We want to stop the Enrons, the BPs, the Lehman Brothers from making the decisions that make things harder for the rest of us. I mean, look, most of the American people are trying to do an honest days work and to make an honest living. We want to make sure that one person's greed doesn't kill somebody else's American dream."

(edited for clarity)

[defendandprotect]

320. What I think you're saying is that rw propaganda works . . . always has . . .

from the most vile of the Vatican propaganda against the Jews --

and from the most vile of the Nazi propaganda against Jews and homosexuals - etal.

And, we have seen our share of this vile propaganda here in America --

In fact, in Nixon's White House, they were studying old Nazi propaganda films . . .


"Welfare Queens" --

"Partial Birth Abortion" --

"Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme" and is going broke --

Social Security and Medicare are "welfare" --

and even viler .... there is only the bottom road for the right wing --


The thing about propaganda is that it is intended to strike emotionally and short-circuit

any second thoughts --


OK . . . so how many responses to all of that garbage did you ever hear?

Pretty much none, because by that time the right wing had destroyed any "free press" we might

have ever had. There was no challenge to this right wing propaganda in the press.

Later we did get one from the Democratic side -- from the feminists -- I really liked --

"PARTIAL TRUTH ABORTION" -- but essentially too late.

I'd like some left wing propaganda, as well -- and agree we should all work on it -- and push

Democrats to respond more often and more strongly, in kind.

And your examples of all of this right wing propaganda are excellent ...

You may not like or trust branding, but it works. Why else would anyone vote for the Constitution-limiting "Patriot Act?" Or "No Child Left Behind?" It's why we have the phrases "Death Tax" and "Pro Life?" Why does the "Moral Majority" have such power? Why does the Right push "Socialist"? "Obamacare"? "Real Americans"? "Government Takeover of Medicine"? "Socialized Medicine"? "Clean Coal"? "Drill, baby, drill?"

Because they work. Even when they're a facade for morally reprehensible tricks, they work.

And I'm sure we all agree with this . . .

To use words to help sell good ideas isn't just helpful, it's necessary.

Think:

Doctors without Borders.

Amnesty International.

"I have a dream."

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

But are our Democrats so dumb that they don't understand that?

That they don't feel the need themselves to reply?

Grayson certainly gets the idea -- could it really be that more than 300 Democrats in

Congress don't get it?


Besides the $$ bribing our candidates and elected officials you also have to understand the

stolen elections -- not only the individual voting machines used by voters . . .

but also the LARGE computers used by MSM --

The large computers began to come in during the mid-1960's --

Prior to them, MSM could only report on actual vote tallies --

Yes, they could get a few people together to speculate on what might happen in certain areas

and with particular candidates -- but the computers gave them the equivalent of a crystal ball.

They now had new powers to PREDICT and CALL elections -- to PREDICT and CALL winners and losers.

To PREDICT and CALL Electoral College votes -- and CALL the entire election for a new president!

What we saw in 2000 was simply a reversal of those new powers as Fox/Jon Ellis RECALLED Florida

from Gore -- later RECALLING it for Bush.

These computers began to come in during the mid-late-1960's . . . just about the time America

was passing The Voting Rights Act!

I'd question every election back to Nixon/Humphrey which was a 130,000 vote squeaker.

Everything the right wing has is bought and financed by right wing wealthy --

and that included the GOP giving start-up financing to the Christian Coalition --

Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization -- and other right wing wealthy financed ]

Bauer's organization --

and why was it necessary . . . ?

Because after WWII there was a revolution in thinking -- propelled by the Democratic propaganda

of WWII -- "all are equality" --

And finally what the right wing called the "Sexual Revolution" to belittle it -- it was really

about much, much more --



"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."


http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html


:)


PS: And, btw, you're very observant -- because I can tell you that many important works of

non-fiction written in the last decades on our shift to the right failed to mention

right wing propaganda. Only in the last ten years or so has anyone taken notice of it!!

[urgk]

329. I forgot "welfare queens."

2 words...endless damage. That short phrase has done more to undermine efforts to help the poor than I can imagine. Great point.

And you're right. Alang Grayson understands. The "War is Making You Poor Act" shows that. He knows how to get noticed. The mainstream media that isn't slanted Right is slanted towards ratings. There must be a degree of showmanship on behalf of the Left if we want to break through.

[defendandprotect]

332. All of what you have said is urgently important --

the problem is Democrats well know this and aren't reacting -- why?

Only a handful do.

The right wing has a very fragile message which they have to protect from challenge --

that's why they have to control everything -- finance every movement -- appeal to

fanatics to help their cause.

TRUTH is like a pebble hitting a mirror -- it can completely shatter it --

that's why it's so necessary for them to control our "free press" -- destroy public

radio/TV --

But it also involves our corrupted elections process which Democrats are NOT responding

to, either! Thom Hartmann said the other day that a Democrat told him that our stolen

elections are considered a very dangerous subject in Democratic Party because the

leadership thinks that if Democrats are told there is corruption in the election process

that they will stop coming out to vote!

Is really anyone left who would have to be told how corrupt our elections are?

Hackable computers producing primary candidates who TPB approve of?

GOP-sponsored fascist rallies to stop the 2000 vote counting?

A Surpreme Court which appointed Bush to the White House?




:)

[defendandprotect]

317. What has to be understood is that right wing wealthy have financed all of this --

from the T-baggers to the GOP sponsored fascist rally to stop the vote counting in 2000 --

I mean EVERYTHING . . . name it and it's been paid for. BOUGHT!

We've also had 50 years of overt political violence -- probably lots before that -- but

out in the open right wing political violence which not only destroyed a President and

liberal leadership, but was a coup on our people's government.

[county worker]

8. I've been saying that for a long time now and I am 64.

I was recently thinking about how we managed to get change in the 60's. I remember that the popular music was about love and anti-establishment ideas. I remember news organizations did not have to make a profit and did not come in right wing or left wing colors. I remember most families were middle class and there were lots of unskilled jobs available if you were a white male.

What happened I think was that minorities and women and draft eligible men did not like the choices that the country said that they had to pick from and wanted to expand their horizons. And many white middle class kids joined them.

I don't see the dynamics that will get people in the streets today. The right learned from everything that happened in the sixties and developed counter strategies and the left stood still and still stands still.

I am glad I lived when I did because I think the future is going to be tough on people.

Another thing I thought of yesterday. We kids wanted to get in the face of the establishment. We gathered in places were we could be seen. In Dayton Ohio it was the courthouse steps. We sat and talked and the people took notice and we made change happen by doing that.

I think the same thing could happen if the unemployed would gather in public places every day and night to get noticed. What is happening is that they are becoming non existent in the media.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. I'm not against it. But it probably won't work.

The capitalists, et al. not only own the senate but they also own the media. All the "direct, non-violent action" in the world won't matter if the media doesn't report it and if it doesn't report it... it doesn't resonate, i.e. doesn't *exist* for all intents and purposes.

A strategy that uses consumer economic leverage ... buying power, if you will... to influence the activities of our masters would make more sense, as it more difficult to co-opt / counteract.

It is.... needless to say... more easily said than done.

[jtuck004]

14. There is some truth to that...

Perhaps signs that say

"We Can't Shop In Your Stores Without Jobs"?

[socialist_n_TN]

27. I thought about what a "mortgage strike" for one month

would do to send a message to the banks. Extend it out to a strike against EVERY bank loan, including car and CCs too and you might have something. But it would be an organizational nightmare. It wouldn't work unless it all happened for everybody in the same month. Spread out, it would lose it's effectiveness.

[defendandprotect]

224. Right . . . we should remember its corporatism we're fighting . . ..

and it comes around every day where the money passes from our hands into theirs --

Credit cards -- they ship us the plast and we go out and shop for their benefit every day!

Think your idea is a good one --

as are many other individual -- but prearranged -- actions.

I've posted a number of suggestions in various comments here --
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8634752&mesg_id=8641461


Also keep in mind that NATURE is on our side in wanting this corporatism/exploitation ended --

If we don't do something soon, NATURE is going to take this out of our hands!

[William Z. Foster]

63. who cares about the media?

Why would the media reporting things make any difference? It isn't a popularity contest or a corporate sales and marketing campaign. Better if it happens outside of the view of mass media, as they can only hurt us - and will.

We are going to be on a buying strike whether we want to or not. We will all be broke.

No, we need to stop looking for easy ways out. We must fight, and nothing less will do.

[Smarmie Doofus]

76. Psychologically it makes a HUGE difference.

If people think they are alone, exceptional, out of the mainstream.... they tend to be doubtful, passive and acquiescent. When we see our perceptions of a situation widely shared we reap validation and confirmation.

We are then prone to take action. This is axiomatic in the behavioral sciences and is just plain self--evidently true.

[William Z. Foster]

90. right

The mass media is a really poor way to communicate to people that they are not alone, exceptional, or out of the mainstream, and the mass media is in the hands of the enemy.

Wouldn't it be great if we had some sort of electronic way to communicate right into people homes all over the country to get together and talk and compare notes? Can you imagine if everyone had a terminal right in their home and if they could reach everyone else around the country through that terminal? That would be much more powerful than the mass media, and make the mass media completely obsolete.

We could validate and confirm each others perceptions, with no middle man distorting things.

If only we had a giant network connecting terminals in everyone's homes and we could talk back and forth 24 hours a day. That would be ideal. No social justice movement in the past ever had anything like that.

Just a pipe dream. You know how we leftists are - so impractical and unrealistic. Imagine - a national network of personal communication terminals! What was I thinking??

[Grinchie]

96. I used to think Democratic Underground was that place..

But after the big announcement from Skinner, I am not so sure, simply because it comes at a time when the Obama Administration finally realizes that it went to far into the Corporate Good Old Boy Club to be respected anymore.

Now, we see a kindler and gentler edict that no dissonant voices will be tolerated here, because it goes against the political consultants views that we all must appear united, even though we are not.

This is the most stunning tragedy I have seen, and if this countinues, DU's days are numbered, but that may be by design.

Personally, I am disgusted by the cheerleader crew, simply because their message and approach is so homogenous. They all appear to be Stepford Wives, parroting the same thing, and they are actually very small in number. The true democrrats outnumber them, but as all real Democrats, we tend to observe and avoid confrontation.

However, the most salient point is that Our posts are Editied, Censored, and hijacked often enough to make it plain and simple that our message is not appreciated. That only energizes me until they tombstone me in the hopes that my voice disappears for good.

If this happens, It won't bother me in the sightest, as it will be the final squawk of the canary being suffocated by the DLC in it's attempt to retain control.

Hey DLC -- FU

[defendandprotect]

180. It could become inconvenient for TPB if internet was used to organize. . ..

especially if DU Democrats began to organize to act --

This is the most stunning tragedy I have seen, and if this countinues, DU's days are numbered, but that may be by design.


Would also suggest that the group here making noise don't have the numbers to effect

the kind of changes which were announced --

but -- Oops, we're not permitted any more to discuss changes/rules -- !!

[Grinchie]

Every bit that travels over the Internet is cloned and sent to the NSA

I guess nobody remembers Room 7 and the NSA Splitter installed on the Pacific Coast backbone..

All this stuff is sifted daily by someone..

[defendandprotect]

226. Yes -- and not only that . . .

it's available if someone wants to begin to call a peaceful protester

a "terrorist" --

[Grinchie]

243. There is a great line in the movie "Die Another Day"

When Bond is visiting a Cuban cell in pursuit of information on the bad guy.

The Cuban says "One man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter".

And there is the reality of the world right there.

[defendandprotect]

290. I've noticed that . . .

remember when Sen. Cheney was calling Nelson Mandela a "terrorist"!!

[whathehell]

117. The mass media is the best way we have NOW....

I don't think we have the time to wait for a major new communication development...Just sayin.

[socialist_n_TN]

130. William might be talking about the Intertubes........

:) Er, internets and twitters, etc.

[William Z. Foster]

143. I am, yes

My point is that we are so beaten down and intimidated that we don't see or talk about how to use what we already have.

[whathehell]

232. Yep...and if so, they are valid alternatives. n/t

[William Z. Foster]

148. getting coverage in the mass media

We have this idea that nothing is real unless it happens on the mass media. We fantasize that if only some left wing point of view could be presented there, that things would improve. That can never, never happen.

[whathehell]

231. I know it's extremely difficult.....but it's not impossible.

You say it can never, never happen...but it HAS happened...I don't know how old you are but the complete corporate "takeover" if you will, of the mass media -- all of it being owned by four huge conglomerates, is relatively recent.

[Smarmie Doofus]

240. Correct. VN ended mostly because MSM was relatively...

... independent in the 60s and 70s. Yes... they were corporate-owned, as they are now; but many of the largest entities had relatively independent and relatively *honest* news divisions.

Those news divisions have been gutted by RW politicization of the news corporations, media "consolidation", and by general dumbing-down of the culture.

[whathehell]

269. Yeah....and it sucks ...I wish I knew a way to counter it. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

241. I don't believe that's fantasy.

That's reality.

And the corporate world agrees with me. There's a reason you can drive for seven hours across the continental USA without hearing anything but Limbaugh on the radio. And ten hours before you hear a progressive... or even a "moderate" political POV.

There's a reason that the US "news" is consistently slanted in one direction.

This fact is without import? Tell it to the corporations. They'll be surprised that they're wasting their money and efforts.

[William Z. Foster]

276. of course

The corporations own the mass media. The fantasy is thinking that corporate media will ever air anything that is threatening to corporate power, or that anything less than threatening corporate power will ever result in any change.

The reason why you hear their message 24 hours a day on a controlled environment with a captive audience is because their message cannot survive otherwise.

If you want to talk about seizing the media, or creating alternatives, then I am on board.

[defendandprotect]

181. I think you have to work AROUND them --

do things they have no control over --

like turning off electricity for a few hours at prearranged times --

pulling your car off the road for 10 minutes or so at prearranged times --

calling labor strikes -- could be just for an hour or two on a specific day --

Wearing buttons MEDICARE FOR ALL -- talking to your fellow human being about

"politics" -- on and on!

[William Z. Foster]

198. yes

The mass media, advertising, promotion, sales and marketing are the tools of the enemy. They do those things because they have nothing else, and they have to spend a fortune relentlessly bombarding us with propaganda to get their message across. That is because their message is weak, it is a lie.

We are much more powerful. We can directly talk to people and we are telling the truth. The wealthy and powerful people cannot do that, so they have to resort to clunky and weak tools like mass media, advertising, promotion, sales and marketing. Those tools are not politically neutral, and we should never look to them. The truth does not need advertising or sales. Social justice does not need to be marketed or promoted. Mass media is a weak and ineffective tool compared to word of mouth.

People in progressive organizations are always trying to steer us into a corporate commercial model for political action because they want to protect and preserve the existing social arrangements and conventions, not challenge them. All of the liberal and progressive causes then become little more than a fig leaf for "business as usual," an opportunity for self-expression that has little or no real political impact.

It is amazing to me the amount of time and effort and thought people put into figuring out, and then selling and rationalizing and justifying, political actions that are absolutely certain to fail. It is as if people are saying "given that we cannot or will not actually accomplish anything, given that we are not going to challenge the existing order, given that we must stay strictly within the boundaries of business as usual and working within the system, what sort of ideas can we come up with that are certain to be safe and weak and no threat to anyone, but that we can still plausibly present to people as 'doing something' so that they will continue to pay attention to us and send us money?"

[defendandprotect]

225. Agree . . .

People in progressive organizations are always trying to steer us into a corporate commercial model for political action because they want to protect and preserve the existing social arrangements and conventions, not challenge them. All of the liberal and progressive causes then become little more than a fig leaf for "business as usual," an opportunity for self-expression that has little or no real political impact.

And that is quite thought provoking!!

I'll have to let that work its way thru my brain a while --

however, I have noticed that women's organizations which have supported CHOICE were quite

willing to support candidates who otherwise were supporting a corporate agenda!

Made no sense to me because in the end corporatism is fascism and will harm women.


It is amazing to me the amount of time and effort and thought people put into figuring out, and then selling and rationalizing and justifying, political actions that are absolutely certain to fail. It is as if people are saying "given that we cannot or will not actually accomplish anything, given that we are not going to challenge the existing order, given that we must stay strictly within the boundaries of business as usual and working within the system, what sort of ideas can we come up with that are certain to be safe and weak and no threat to anyone, but that we can still plausibly present to people as 'doing something' so that they will continue to pay attention to us and send us money?"

Well, that brings to mind the response we've always gotten to "work thru the system" ---

Would anyone do anything now but laugh at that?

Howard Zinn, I think, made quite clear that real change comes from OUTSIDE the political parties/

community. And history confirms the truth of that --

Nor do I get marching on DC when no one is there! But, while I went quite a few times, I'd

prefer to see state by state actions -- prearranged -- even going back to 13 original states.

And, individual -- but prearranged actions --

Also Democrats have to come to understand the literal truth of what Cheney said --

"The right wing creates the reality and liberals live it!" --

Hard for anyone to believe, but pretty much the entire right wing is financed and fake --

not only the Christian Coalition and T-baggers -- not only the faked GOP-fascist rally in

Miami-Dade County to stop the vote counting but even our creation of Taliban/Al Qaeda and

the luring of Russia into Afghanistan -- our creation and printing of the violent Islamic

textbooks shipped into ME to try to create a violent Islamic religion.

This was the right wing's reaction to the liberal/progressive uprising post-WWII which

culminated, IMO, with what the right wing disparagingly calls "The Sexual Revolution."

It was about a great deal more -- a challenge to all authority!

"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."





http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

[whathehell]

230. Sure.....Anything you think will work. n/t

[bobbolink]

142. OR.....What if we used computers in a different way.....

To make PowerPoint programs of the important facts and points, to show and share with others in small groups, then open up to discussion?

Why can't we do this?

Like I said before, add a few cookies to that, and you are on your way.

Begin with listening skills so people come together to actually hear each other, and you have one movement on its way!

[William Z. Foster]

147. there we go

Your idea is the tip of the iceberg. We are not thinking creatively, we are not defining and committing to results.

In short, we are not serious. We are looking for easy ways out.

[bobbolink]

150. Yes, my idea is one of many. Not the only way... it will take many ways.

The point is to think differently, and look at the problem FIRST, then look for ways out of second, instead of just resorting to the same things we have done in the past.

What I see is that we need to LISTEN to angry people first, and we don't listen as a matter of course in this society, so we need to first learn how to REALLY listen. I am finding that is what poor people want most of all is to be HEARD.

THEN, take that listening and go from there.

That is what old-fashioned neighborhood organizing used to be about.

But we have fallen into the control mode of the Powers That Be by wanting to impose solutions on people without HEARING them first.

[socialist_n_TN]

152. I think that all leftist groups in a particular area

should work on being networked together. If there's an egregious violation against one group, they can call on the network for assistance and vice versa.

[bobbolink]

154. Here's the one problem with that... NONE of the "existing" groups takes poverty

as a priority, or even seriously.

Without poor people, you have very little.

I will no longer devote any energy to other causes, as I have said elsewhere, because poor people are ignored by the so-called "left", and I am part of that invisible mass.

Wouldn't it be foolhardy for any of us to work in any group that ignores our most basic needs?

The Gift of the Poor
The people with the best sense of what is essential to a community, of what gives and maintains its spirit, are often doing very humble, manual tasks. It is often the poorest person - the one who has a handicap or who is ill or old - who is the most prophetic. People who carry responsibility must be close to them and know what they think, because it is often they who are free enough to see with the greatest clarity the needs, beauty and pain of the community.
- Jean Vanier, Community and Growth, p. 262

[William Z. Foster]

172. correct

"NONE of the 'existing' groups takes poverty as a priority, or even seriously."

That is absolutely right and tells us much about why we cannot move forward. The battle in this country is between the haves and the have-nots, and if people were willing to see that then of course those who have-not shelter and have-not food would be at the top of the list.

All of the political discussion in the country, all of the liberal and progressive organizations and the Democratic party are dominated by a small minority of people, relatively upscale and comfortable. They are "winners" and they think like winners. Thinking like winners in this country is the root problem, the root cause of all of the social and political problems.

We are free to talk any sort of radical beliefs we like, are free to call ourselves "Socialist" or whatever. What we are not free to do is to challenge the winners - what that means in this culture and how it affects everything.

I do not blame you or anyone for refusing to work in any group that ignores our most basic needs, and sadly this is the case with just about all of the organizations.

All of the political actions that might be effective are beaten down by our friends and allies from within, because those actions threaten the control and power, the perks and status of the winners. Whether the winners come in the liberal version or the conservative version, they are fighting for the same thing - protecting the existing social conventions and arrangements.

[bobbolink]

238. Thank you, William for understanding. I am so tired of the cheerleading.

I should have understood this dynamic from the beginning, but I had to bash my head against the wall first, I guess. :(

I am going to print out these words of yours... to remind myself, and also to show a "friend" who just doesn't get it.

Thanks for the understanding and suppport. :yourock:

[socialist_n_TN]

193. I understand, but keep in mind...........

You CAN ask and work with the ones who will work with you.

I would think that a homeless advocacy group might be resource poor also. What about checking with some of the local unions to use some of their office equipment as needed? Maybe you've already tried that, I don't know. I just spitballing. The ones that work with you, you work with them.

[bobbolink]

217. I've used up my energy, and beaten my head bloody.

I understand that you wish to find solutions, but I ask you to keep *this* in mind... those of us who are seriously working on poverty already know what you have said. To continually be told this just adds to the amount of energy we expend to keep repeating the same things.

I know you didn't intend that, but I want you to trust that many of us know what we are doing, and need acknowledgement for our efforts, rather than more suggestions, and the trust of others that we are doing all we can.

What I have laid out here is a very important consideration, and as William said above, it is a TRUTH of the political climate, and needs to be seen as the systemic problem that it is.

I repeat... this isn't a personal problem, this is a systemic problem.

And it is very, very scary to be dealing with it alone.

editing to add.... I just received a message from someone I asked to help with a project. All I got was all the reasons why it wouldn't work. Do you understand why this is demeaning, and exhausting?

[William Z. Foster]

223. this is the inverse of modern activism

You are offering up your personal plight for the greater cause. You are sacrificing yourself for the sake of many.

Modern activism drags the greater cause into self-expression and personal lifestyle. This sacrifices the many for the sake of one.

Modern activism has a distinct gentrified bias and is only relevant to the few and the relatively upscale. It also reinforces all of the themes of individualism and self-centered thinking that are the stock in trade of the right wing.

[urgk]

254. There are millions of Democrats who both understand...

And support the cause of the poor; who understand that the majority of poor sub-groups in the US have been lied to, been denied power, been used, been cheated, been fed upon to the point where they are unable to move themselves out of poverty.

And I'd be surprised if I could find a few thousand Republicans who felt the same way.

The shame is that our leadership, collectively, has been unable to legislate a path to right the wrong that has been done. But, believe me, there are leaders who understand. And there are fellow Democrats, who, though frustrated, understand. I teach photography to two groups of 8-14 year olds, one as part an art museum's summer program and one at a community center that's attached to a Sheriff's office for safety's sake, and I can see the difference in what's been asked of each, for good and for bad. I can see what's been provided for each. I can see how the odds are stacked. And it rips my heart out.

I guess what I'm saying is that I hear you. And my sister who teaches math on a reservation hears you. And all the volunteers who plant trees in neighborhoods that would otherwise be concrete, and the people who teach adults to finally read and the people who worked to bring Change with a capital C, they hear you too.

[bobbolink]

306. The point I was making is that Poverty does NOT rank on the priority lists of most Dems.

You can see that right here at DU, and it exists across the board. Maybe I should challenge you to pay attention to the different priority lists that are posted here, and see just how many even list Poverty at the bottom. If enough of us start challenging that, maybe it willl begin to break into the consciousness of the majority.

Yes, there are activists involved directly in poverty issues who see the problem, but what are they able to actually do about it at that level?

Unless and until the majority of "progressives" do a lot more than "understand", unless and until they take it seriously and work as diligently on poverty issues as they do on their other pet projects, nothing will change.

I appreciate that you hear me. I appreciate that others who are directly involved hear me. I particularly appreciate your mention of the difference in how the two groups of students were/are treated, and I hope you will make an OP of that.

I understand that. What I am getting at is the lack of action on the part of the rest of us.

[defendandprotect]

183. Wow -- I've been after that for decades!! Evidently, some of them fear that

if they unite, they can't compete for the buck they need -- !!???

[liberalmike27]

288. Facebook is a powerful tool

One can use it to talk directly to your friends about issues, post poignant articles.

It is true that it can, and has caused some derisiveness in my account.

Also, once you find up a bunch of your local friends, you should proceed to go on national groups, and try to "troll" for friends, by posting something good, and asking them to "friend" you. I've added about 30 national friends, to supplement my incredibly redneck, and backward Alabama crowd. You can do it, with groups like Thom Hartmann, Media Matters, Rachel Maddow, and the like. If you live in the South, this is especially important, as you start feeling like a loner real quick in a 65-35 state.

I think it's a natural feeling when one is in the minority to be a bit paranoid. Like putting an Obama bumper sticker on, you worry whether someone is going to sabotage your car. But the more folks that do it, the more that valdal is going to look around and see there are a lot of "eyes" out there, that might just be Obama supporters, and might call the cops on him. All we do when we don't support one another out of fear, is allow them to think they can do stuff like this with impugnity. So put those stickers on your cars too.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

108. you are right about that

protests are empowering and can be inspiring to others... That is why the MSM barely paid notice to the sometimes HUGE protests (during the shrub years)- divide and conquer.

[SJC55]

216. Agreed

You are correct, William.

[fasttense]

99. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. Let's do both.

Economic boycotts AND marching in the streets.

The Corporate media would try to ignore the marches but if we are out there day after day, month after month, they eventually start to complain about us getting in their way. And when you inconvenience the rich and stupid they make it a big deal.

[Smarmie Doofus]

302. Agreed. But the $$ is what will carry the *bite*, I'm thinking.

If we look at the most recent examples: the massive street demos before and after the Iraq undertaking, the state could not have cared LESS.

Had we coupled that strategy with a serious "stop the spending" initiative.... it *MIGHT* have had a happier outcome.

It'ss hard to know. The left always 'hits the streets' and we're pretty good at it... but to what avail?

What we don't do a lot of is using consumer $$ as *weaponry*. We tend not to think that way. Perhaps it's time we did.

[Doctor_J]

196. Spending has been involuntarily reduced for 4 years now

and they have found ways to keep terrorizing us.

[datasuspect]

299. they learned a lot from movement politics in the 60s and 70s

the marketing tools are in place to constantly hammer the message that direct action won't accomplish anything, and if you propose it, you will be held up to ridicule.

they're probably in this very thread.

[lunatica]

15. I went out after 9/11 to march against Bush's wars (both of them)

There were millions of marchers in the months before the Iraq war in 2003. We were ignored and the media didn't cover them.

Bush dismissed us as a focus group by saying, "I don't create policy or make decisions based on focus groups." That was the only time he ever mentioned us.

By the way there were hundreds of thousands of people in their 60s bringing their grandkids to the demonstrations. It was fun to see. I'm 61.

[NOLALady]

30. I joined their ranks in 2003.

Getting too old for this stuff. But, I'm willing to to trot out the old walking shoes again.

[Phentex]

39. I just didn't understand!...

We marched before it started and we marched when our soldiers were dying. I couldn't figure out why the whole country wasn't out marching. What would get them angry enough?

And all these years later, we are still at war.

*sigh*

[defendandprotect]

186. Was also out, as well -- and our towns were very active . . .

Who cares about the MSM?

We need the movement to thrive person to person -- word of mouth --

actions which can be done from home -- at prearranged times --

I'll recite some I've mentioned above ...

Turn electricity off for an hour at prearranged times --

Take your car off the road for 10 minutes or so at prearranged times --

Don't buy gasoline on a prearranged day --

Don't SHOP in a major mall or department stores on a prearranged day --

Call LABOR out -- you don't have to be in a union -- have a 2 hour strike --

at a prearranged time -- 1pm to 3pm, for instance --


And, if you can avoid using credit cards or ATM cards don't do it -- we're out

earning money which empowers banks/credit card companies and they just sit back

and count it! Every time you use a credit card it enriches the powerful.

American Express 7.5% on every transaction -- other cards 3.5% all adding to our costs

every day.

How about one credit card free day a month?

Our battle is with corporations which have overtaken our government, using our military

to capture natural resources for them -- make war for them.

[sabrina 1]

229. Very good ideas, D&P

As for the MSM, the best way to deal with them is to boycott them until someone learns that spewing propaganda to the choir, isn't doing much good.

Maybe a real Liberal site is what is needed, one that doesn't shy away from raising their voice against their own party when it's needed. And one that becomes a center, the place to go to organize around the kind of ideas you just listed. We've been 'following' without realizing for a long time, putting energy and money into organizations that are not on our side.

It would take money to start such a site but many of the people who are no longer donating to eg, the DNC, I'm sure would be happy to donate to a real Liberal/Progressive site that didn't hestitate to go after Congress and/or the WH no matter which party they are. There is a huge amount of dissatisfaction with really no place to express it and organize it into positive action.

And the first action should be a boycott of the MSM and a promotion of the Independent media imho.

[defendandprotect]

234. Good ideas . . . and I'm watching C-span again -- getting more interesting ...

with the changeover from Repugs to Dems -- more hearing where you learn something --

Otherwise, a little Jon Stewart which seems kinda silly these days?

MSNBC line up -- not Matthews -- Schultz, Olberman, Rachel --

that's pretty much it --

And notice the huge numbers of ads for drug companies/medications!!

Matches up with the immense real estate invasion of towns by banks and medicare care

industry!!

Evidently, we're a very plastic card carrying and SICK populaton!!


And, agree with your other ideas - - suprised it hasn't happened yet!!


Have also been sensing for some time here that a lot of news isn't getting posted --

last year I thought it was because of summer -- but I don't think so -- more and

more the "news" being printed here is ignoring a lot of news!

[Catherina]

17. My mom said the same thing yesterday!

I told her I'd proudly march next to her.

[Hannah Bell]

18. yes. but more to the point, back into the smoke-filled organizing halls.

[Paper Roses]

19. Yes, no question. Bad feet and all, I'd be there.

And, I'm pushing 68. I am sick sick sick of all of this
War, oil, unemployment, all the self-serving inaction from our government.

I protested Vietnam, would be pleased to join a march for as long as I can.

Must be multi-subject march. Too many equally important things to protest.

[socialist_n_TN]

28. YES! A generalized old fashioned left wing

march for EVERYTHING. A social and ecological justice march. Eat that Glenn Beckkk!

[onethatcares]

35. I'm for it, but remember

10 million people marching in the streets of washington D.C. will get less media coverage than 27 teabaggers standing on a street corner scratchng their nutz, holding signs depicting the President of the United States of America as hitler.

I say let's start now. We should have enough people in varied cities that would stand and walk, either in their cities or their capitals.

BTW, I'm pushing 60 too, and my feet hurt but I'll give it my best shot.

Peace

[Raksha]

81. I'm over 60 and I'm used to walking. I'd do it if I could get there.

[William Z. Foster]

82. build an organization

Never mind media coverage. The media is owned by the enemy. We have something they do not have - the ability to meet and talk directly with our friends and neighbors. That is vastly more powerful than TV will ever be.

This idea that we can get the attention of the powerful and that they will then do something for us is at best naive. This idea that rather than going directly to the people around us we need to stage a mass rally and then depend on the TV to communicate to our friends and neighbors is counter-productive. How about we cut out the middle man, a middle man who is our deadly enemy?

A march is to show the strength we already have - as a threat - and to impact the rulers. that means there has to be an organization that the march is an expression of. The march itself cannot be the organization. That is no threat. If a march is seen as an end in itself, the rulers have nothing to fear, and if it is intended merely to "speak truth to power" in the hope that they will "listen" and "do the right thing" it will have no impact. "Thanks for sharing, now get off the street or we will club you" will be the only response.

[Raksha]

86. You're right, but it has to be more than an organization. It has to be a political party.

It already exists now, but it's fragmented--Progressive Democrats, the Greens, MoveOn, etc. What has to happen is a coalition.

[William Z. Foster]

91. why?

Why does it have to be a political party?

The Abolition movement was not. The Suffragette movement was not. The organized Labor movement was not. The Civil Rights movement was not.

"Progressive Democrats, the Greens, MoveOn, etc." and the liberal organizations in general have not gotten the job done, and in my opinion never will. Many of the people in them would join a new movement, as they are frustrated and know that something is wrong with the "work within the system" approach the organizations are taking. All of those organizations are merely auxiliary wings of the political party, useful for forcing people back into the system where they will be silenced and infective.

I would say that the one thing it cannot be is a political party, and worse yet an auxiliary wing of a political party.

[OneGrassRoot]

102. Thanks for all these excellent points! :)

I always appreciate your contributions tremendously, even if I don't respond.

:hi:

[Raksha]

228. Why I think "the movement" has to be a political party,

or end up being a political party eventually...

Re "Why does it have to be a political party?

The Abolition movement was not. The Suffragette movement was not. The organized Labor movement was not. The Civil Rights movement was not."

It's obvious from your comment here and elsewhere on this topic that you've given a lot of thought to this subject. I was basically expressing my frustration over the fact that we seem to already had a "movement," except that it's been stalled for years and hasn't been moving anywhere. I'm not sure what you'd call this movement, but it encompasses all the outrage regularly expressed on DU and elsewhere over the fact that the majority has been disenfranchised and systematically disempowered and impoverished by the PTB, which now includes the vast majority of the late, great Democratic Party. Including our elected representives, of course. Including President Obama, who told me everything I need to know about who he really represents when he appointed Rahm Emmanuel as his Chief of Staff.

Basically, I've given up on the Democratic Party. I have written it off as too hopelessly corrupt to respond to anything except an existential threat, which I can only envision as a credible threat to its power FROM THE LEFT. I'm still a registered Democrat, but as soon as I see a viable third-party alternative that looks like it might actually get a few representatives elected--I'm outta here.

[William Z. Foster]

313. political parties

It is inevitable that the work of a social movement will be reflected in changes in or with political parties. The political parties, the politicians, and electoral politics are all effects of social and political change, they are not causes of change.

The Abolition movement was the absolutely essential precursor to the creation of the new Republican party. The Abolition movement inevitably led to a new party that was more strongly opposed to slavery than the Whig party was, but the formation of the Republican party could never have led to the creation of the Abolition movement.

Thinking that political parties cause change is like thinking that a swaying tree limb was causing the wind. The tree limb swaying is evidence of the wind, yes. I suppose if the tree limb were a political party, its politicians would say "look, we are swaying! We are doing the right thing! We are on the same side as the wind!! You must be loyal to the tree limb and forget about the wind if you want branches to sway! That wind is dangerous and radical!"

[Grinchie]

97. Jesus, all this talk about walking into harms way...

When all you need to do is stop consuming for a week or two.

You are attacking from a weak vantage point. Read Sun Tzu.. Do Not March on Washington.

You would be much more effective with a prolonged boycott of the unnecessary Widgets and Doodads...

Marching is silly at thes stage, when the police have a good supply of fresh bullets...

You really think that they wouldn't use bullets when they tase bedridden grannies because she moved funny?

Anybody that is trying to start a march better review that nonsense, because there are easier ways with less risk to people,.

Do not blow your wad all at once.. Thats what they want.

[KoKo]

123. What if instead of Marching against the Wars in Cities we had Protested outside CNN/FOX and Local

News station affiliates?

We should have targeted the media at that time because they were pumping for War. There have been huge protests on Wall St. during the Bank Bailouts ...but the media refused to cover them. Only way I knew is that financial bloggers and Bloomberg news would mention the protests from time to time.

Protesting the TV Media would maybe be more effective. Look at how the right constantly complained about the "Liberal Media." They sent talking heads out and and touted their "Silent Majority" until the Media Itself turned and hired more and more RW'ers put up by the major Conservative Think Tanks. We have maybe two Think Tanks that are in the Center...and they don't have power for change.

If we targeted the Media and oand staged some clever outdoor theater to express our views...we might finall get the attention from the source that is complicit with the MIC.

[William Z. Foster]

170. Jesus, all this talk about fear and discouragment...

"When all you need to do is stop consuming for a week or two."

People are going hungry in this country and you want to tell them to consume less? People cannot afford housing, food, medicine, heat. Working class people need to be able to consume more, not less.

"You are attacking from a weak vantage point. Read Sun Tzu.. Do Not March on Washington."

The weakness is from a lack of organization.

"You would be much more effective with a prolonged boycott of the unnecessary Widgets and Doodads..."

You meant to say "we" not "you," I hope. Strategic boycotts within the context of a large coherent politician movement can be effective. Vague "change your lifestyle" boycotts can never work. Reforming human nature is the business of religion. Politics is concerned with changing conditions.

"Marching is silly at thes stage, when the police have a good supply of fresh bullets...You really think that they wouldn't use bullets when they tase bedridden grannies because she moved funny?"

This is fear-mongering. It will never be risk free to challenge those with power. It is the fear that is the barrier, not the bullets.

"Anybody that is trying to start a march better review that nonsense, because there are easier ways with less risk to people,.

More fear mongering and discouragement.

"Do not blow your wad all at once.. Thats what they want.

They want to retain power and will stop at nothing. That is always the case. People have faced greater odds with fewer resources, and less cause, then we have today.

[Grinchie]

202. Just as I was afraid of, you try to dismiss my ideas because it conflicts with yours.

People are going hungry....

Stop buying Jack in the Box and McDonalds and buy some live chickens.. They will get eggs and fresh meat. Learn to dress your own chicken..
Organized boycott of certain products that people can handle is just as good -- Try Cable Tv for example. Cell Phones...
People have the ability to change their lifestyle overnight if they so choose.
The Bullets are speculation, but we did see some nastiness at the Republican Convention in 2008, didn't we? Didn't Amy Goodman get arrested while reporting there? It's not fear, it's common sense to not willingly walk into a meatgrinder. First of all, you save your energy and resources, while the security forces sit on piles of expensive hardware that slowly rots away from disuse.

Secondly, as I said in response to another post, a March requires certain resources to accomplish.. Such as Transportation, Fuel, Food, Clothing, Shelter, Batteries, Shoes, Medications for those that are dependant on them, and exposure to the elements and the security personnel for identification, harrasment, and insertion into a database. Not to mention exposure to possible provocateur tactics to create a disturbance or riot. We've seen this already in the past, during a meeting in Canada, when masked "Anarchists" were identified as RCMP officers...

Why make it easy for them, while at the same time consuming vast quantities of doodads and widgets that are part of daily life? It is this aspect that I think you fail to acknowledge of see, because we are so ignorant of the total overall costs of this type of thing, that we fail to see that just the fact of the march will provide more money to the Corporations that now have total control over the government.

As far as risk, this word is used all over the place, and is no way associated with Fear. This is where I think you go overboard and are becoming a bit fanatic. You do not attack a position of strength. It is much easier to soften them up with much less expenditure in time and money.

Of course, if you have nothing to lose, have lots of money to blow on this endeavor, and have determined the risk is nominal, I'm not going to stop you. But I would be remiss if I did not suggest a simpler and more elegant way that actually targets the Jugular vein of the Corporatocracy, instead of applying Nostalgic efforts from the 60's in 2010.

The world is much different now... There are a lot more people, and the government doesn't know what to do with all of them.

The economy right now is at the tipping point. It needs to correct, and the only way is by starving it to the point of no return so the fraud is exposed, and all of the power they created for themselves via debt is destroyed worlwide, and the nations they have raped are left to manage themselves instead of being debt slaves to the World Bank and the IMF.

A March in my opinion is an antiquated approach that is futile, but that Is my opinion.

[William Z. Foster]

204. thanks

I apologize for being mildly provocative and I appreciate your detailed response.

[Grinchie]

245. Don't mention it. I am long past emotion after watching the death of a thousand cuts.

One further thing that must be said, is that we know that the 60's were quite colorful, but the Government was able to come up with models to predict the behavior of most Americans, and they worked fantastically.. Everyone got to choose their own identity by the product customized to their personal tastes. This distracted Americans for many years, but the reality is that a car is a car is a car, despite what model it is.

So is a cordless drill, so why do they make them look like Nike Shoes? Why not build them to last instead of failing precisely when the warranty expires?

I am getting off track though.. The fact is that they still have to old models of control, but times are different. They do not have any models that apply anymore, so they are trying the same old manipulations to maintain control.

They expect huge marches and violence, and believe me, they have non lethal weaponry that is just plain diabolic that they are itching to test on American Citizens so they can ultimately sell on the open market.

I don't trust the security services to be fair or honest or have any empathy any more. I see the brute force and swarming mentality used by the police forces, and frankly, I don't see the risk as worth it. I am not Amy Goodman, who should have carte blance to enter any venue in my opinion, but we have seen otherwise, so I am just another asshole to be cracked on the head with a nightstick, sprayed with pepper spray, have me eardrums shattered by Sound Cannons, or have my organs heated beyond reasonable core tempterature by invisible, soundless microwave emmitters and collapse into Heat Exhaustion in minutes, to be collected by the meat wagon.

I am a realist, and we all muct become realists if we are to have any effect on this powerful machine that has been built right under our noses.

The reality is Money, and leveraged money is the Ghost of Money. Time to dispell the Ghost of Money that drives the Corporatocracy.

[William Z. Foster]

212. detailed response

Stop buying Jack in the Box and McDonalds and buy some live chickens.. They will get eggs and fresh meat. Learn to dress your own chicken..

As many studies have shown, the assumption that poor people are making the wrong food choices is false. People on limited incomes are for the most part accurately assessing and purchasing the most calories and protein they can with their limited resources.

Keeping and butchering chickens is not an option for millions of people. It just isn't.

Organized boycott of certain products that people can handle is just as good -- Try Cable Tv for example. Cell Phones...

I don't know why you would want to deprive people of communications or entertainment, or how that could be a tool for social progress.

People have the ability to change their lifestyle overnight if they so choose.

This is a variation on the Reagan era "personal responsibility" and "bootstrap" themes. The idea here is that if only those stupid people would change their personal lifestyles, social problems would lessen. This is a way to blame working class people, and it fosters atomization and isolation. Political and social change will never happen by people changing their lifestyles, since lifestyles are an effect and not a cause of the conditions under which we are living. Change the conditions, give people power and resources to make choices, and they will make better choices.

The Bullets are speculation, but we did see some nastiness at the Republican Convention in 2008, didn't we? Didn't Amy Goodman get arrested while reporting there? It's not fear, it's common sense to not willingly walk into a meatgrinder. First of all, you save your energy and resources, while the security forces sit on piles of expensive hardware that slowly rots away from disuse.

Inaction, and fear of the authorities has never won social justice and never will.

Secondly, as I said in response to another post, a March requires certain resources to accomplish.. Such as Transportation, Fuel, Food, Clothing, Shelter, Batteries, Shoes, Medications for those that are dependant on them, and exposure to the elements and the security personnel for identification, harrasment, and insertion into a database. Not to mention exposure to possible provocateur tactics to create a disturbance or riot. We've seen this already in the past, during a meeting in Canada, when masked "Anarchists" were identified as RCMP officers...

People need all of those things whether they are resisting and organizing or they are not. Access to those things represent power, and you are arguing against working class people having power when you say we need to cut back. The ruling class is trying right now to impose "austerity measures" on the working class people. We don't need to be reinforcing that effort by telling people that the solution to the few having too much is for us all to have less.

Then you are saying that because of the dangers in organizing and resiting, we should refrain from taking up the struggle.

All of the guns, the tasers, the tear gas, the databases, the torture, the detention are for the purpose of intimidating us into inaction. You argue that we should be intimidated into inaction.

I think that the search for "a simpler and more elegant way" is exactly what people are doing. That could also be called "safer and easier." I do not think such a thing exists. You say that buying less "actually targets the Jugular vein of the Corporatocracy" but you don't explain how that could be. The wealthy and powerful are interested in controlling us, and are in the process of crashing any purchasing power we have. They don't seem to care whether or not we buy anything, or why would they make it harder and harder for us to do that?

I am not talking about "nostalgic efforts from the 60's" I am talking about the approach that every successful movement for social justice has used throughout history. I reject the idea that politics are obsolete because "in 2010." The only thing that makes 2010 different than other times in history is that we have a large number of intellectuals and political activists who are rejecting all of the lessons from successful organizers in the past and declaring history and politics obstetrical, or "nostalgic" or "romantic."

[Grinchie]

247. Everyone can raise chickens..

What, afraid of breaking your CC&R's or your rental agreement.. Hah Hah Hah.


I never said to not take action, I just gave my reason my I think it just won't work in todays world.

I'll make you a deal, I will do my best the way I see fit to offer resistance to all of the BS present today.

You can do whatever activities that you feel are necessary. If you are comfortable butting heads physically with Security Details, then by all means, I'll watch it on the Youtubes, just like I'm watching the G20 Riots going on in Canada right now.

I'm afraid that no matter how nice you are in your march, you are just another angry mob, to be subjected to response plan 7-G by the police, many of whom are anonymous and unidenifiable due to lack of name tags..

I wish you godspeed, but I hope you have not ignored the research and analysis it takes to properly assess risk.

I am not afraid of anything anymore. But I don't go out of my way to put myself in risky situations, like cliffdiving, or walking into a hornets nest.

[bobbolink]

237. Kewl! I can "dress a chicken" in my car! Whooopie!

Instead of looking down your nose at poor people, try understanding that our lives are not the same as yours, and neither are our resources.

This kind of diatribe is exactly why the left has gotten the label of "elite".

[Name removed]

253. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William Z. Foster]

260. sorry

"This is the problem with Americans."

I am never going to join you in blaming the working class people for the social and political problems.

I am living and working on a farm, by the way. Why would we all raise chickens even here? A couple of neighbors have chickens and produce all of the eggs that everyone in the community needs. Now, we do have some relatively upscale suburban refugees around here playing at being farmers, and lecturing all of the rest of us about our lifestyles.

You have worked out a personal strategy and viewpoint. More power to you. But if you advocate that lifestyle as an alternative to serious political action, I am going to disagree with you.

It is not the raising of hens that is elitist, it is the presentation of personal lifestyle choices as an alternative to political action that is elitist.

[Grinchie]

267. Whatever... You can label self accountability however you want to

Politicians are one step lower than Lawyers..

You are lucky that you have a supply of eggs nearby, wo you actually know the value of having a few chickens around.

I think if they disappeared one day you'd miss them, wouldn't you?

Follow the Money.. Politics is driven by Money. Get away from the money, and you starve the current political system and all of their superwealthy Corporate contributors that Americans feed by consuming unnecessarily.

You just don't get it..

Feel free to devote your life to Politics, and maybe if you can convince me that you are not putting people at risk by urging them to march on a hunkered down government, than maybe I'll support you, but until then, I think you are jumping the gun and setting yourself up for an early defeat.

[William Z. Foster]

272. money is merely the tool

It is not about money, it is about control. Given a choice between losing money and losing control and the rulers - and the bosses, the landlords, the owners - will always give up the money.

Politics is about power and resources, who has access to those and who does not. One person as an individual may be able to solve that problem by figuring out how to survive without access to power and resources, but it is not responsible to recommend it as a course for all of us because all of us could not do it. To think otherwise is to deny history. If we all dropped out as it were, do you really believe we would be left alone? It is about control over others, and there is no way to hide from those who would control you. We must fight back.

The only way to "starve the current political system and all of their superwealthy Corporate contributors" is to starve them of what they rally want - control over other human beings.

You say that we need to give up buying consumer goods. You do realize that food and water are being turned into consumer goods and falling under the control of corporations, don't you? How many of us can hunt and gather to survive? Where are you going to quietly grow your own food and be left alone by the authorities? Even if you do that, the water tables, streams and rivers are being destroyed. Where will you get water? A relative handful of people can perhaps survive in the wilderness and starve the rulers of their presence, but we have millions of people who are at risk. I feel a responsibility to them that supersedes my desire to look after myself or build a clever and self-sufficient lifestyle.

I have not been advocating marching, by the way. I have been advocating organizing and resisting. There is a lot of hard work in that and there are risks. Marching is not right for you personally. That is fine.

Yes, I know the value of having a few chickens around. I also know how minuscule that is in the bigger picture. I know what farming was like 100 years ago. I know what it takes to keep a population the size of a city like Chicago fed on a daily basis, how complex and tenuous the entire system is. I know that Wall Street is gaining a stranglehold over our food supply system.

[Grinchie]

282. All good points. I don't have any responsibility to urban dwellers

They are the ones that come to the country and grub whole tracts of land to mineral earth, and then abandon it when reality sets in.

Since 85% of the earth's population wouldn't know where to find the nuggets on a chicken, and live in unsustainable megopolises, with all food, water and energy imported from distant lands, taking the nutrients extracted from the soil into the food, which is transported thousands of miles, consumed and then flushed away and turned into toxic, diseased waste, never to be seen again on the land it was extracted from.

We as a society depend on flushing gallons of fresh potable water after mixing it with feces... It's unsustainable.

I have no qualms warning people of the impending collapse of the biosphere. but they need to wise up and become responsible citizens of the planet.

It's not my fault we don't teach basic life skills in school instead of B for Buy N Large, your very best friend. Everything you need to be happy.

Once you strip away the marketing hype, you learn that a few good books, a nice garden and a orchard, a self provided water supply, and most of all, a nice secure fence and no debt makes a big difference.

It's the No Debt part that most people have difficulty with these days, simply because we've been told that's the way it is...

Wall Street will never get a hold on my food supply.

[William Z. Foster]

284. understood

We are morally obligated to try and feed people and are at the mercy of the predators you are talking about who are coming after rural land.

[defendandprotect]

190. Personally, I've always been mystified at the DC marches ... and I've intended at

least 4-5 of them . . .

We go on Saturday when no one is there!

I remember one where we had so many marching that it took like to 7pm to get everyone

past the point of the White House! Unbelievable numbers and moved like a silk scarf!

Personally, I wish people would consider doing more local stuff -- there's action today

at the shore here in NJ and other coastal towns re OIL SPILL -- BP!!

But I had to go down yesterday so I'm not there today.

We have our Representatives local offices sometimes fairly close -- we have our STATE

offices fairly nearby --

Chamber of Commerce -- remember what we are fighting is corporatism . . .

and the Corporate Crusade is quite like the Christian Crusades -- same patterns of

violence. control, oppression, intimidation.

[earthboundmisfit]

20. Wow that's exactly what the S.O. and I are talking about right this minute!

Between unemployment, the shameful situation in the Gulf, and the gluttonous corporations who are the cause of both, it's TIME. No more timidity. No more complacency. "They" are not going to do the right fucking thing, EVER.

[defendandprotect]

191. Remember that greed can't be enacted without government giving it license . ..

That's our problem -- corporations taking over government --

We need to NATIONALIZE the oil industry and take back control of our natural resources

from private interests --

Until we do that we will never get alternative energy --

Obama is giving $36 billion in loans to the nuclear energy interests!

Imagine if only 1% of that went into creating housing for the homeless!!

[earthboundmisfit]

268. One would think the gulf disaster would spur a flurry of legislation to fund alternative energy dev

And ya not nuclear!

[Grinchie]

296. Rememebr the so called "Windfall Profits Tax"

This link will infuriate the cheerleader crew...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lloyd-chapman/still-no-windfall-profits_b_412495.html

[defendandprotect]

315. PS: Yes ... I remember that Carter actually had the guts to do it -- !!

which kinda explains what happened to him along the way --

and, if you recall those failed desert rescue missions to get the hostages . . .

guess who was in charge of them? Ollie North -- !! And second in command -- Secord!!

[defendandprotect]

310. What comes "naturally" is subdued by oil industry $$$ .....

We need to nationalize the oil industry --

[damntexdem]

21. Way past the time.

But the going back for some of us will be to the antiwar and other protests during the Bushista years.

Remember Camp Casey in 2005!

[Mimosa]

25. European friends have said that to me a few times n/t

[defendandprotect]

192. Europeans have also said: "American liberals and progressives have

an odd way of being assassinated and otherwise eliminated in the United States" --

Now they no longer wait for a leader to actually arise!

[valerief]

32. The revolution will not be televised. nt

[metapunditedgy]

34. Not this time around. n/t

Edit: But it may be posted on YouTube.

[valerief]

158. Not with the president's internet kill switch. nt

[fascisthunter]

36. Here's another kick! (nt)

[Swamp Rat]

37. We are wasting our time arguing over what offends us lately,

as we are all likely gonna die an unnatural death... maybe sooner than we think.

Call me Cassandra... call me whatever... TIME TO HIT THE STREETS!!!

We already did this in New Orleans WEEKS AGO!

WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA!!!

[SJC55]

218. Agreed.

It's amazing how many people are still living with their heads in the sand.

[happy_liberal]

38. Cindy Sheehan just led a protest- another to follow July 4 in DC

This one just happened- did anyone hear about it?

As one of the People’s responses to a historic meeting of activists from all over the country, there will be a protest at the: Deepwater Horizon Unified Response Command Center in New Orleans, LA, on Monday, June 21st from 12pm to 2pm.

“Obviously, the government and British Petroleum are not as invested in this planet as the people are,” said Sheehan from New Orleans. “As usual, we the people need to force the corporatists to meet our needs.”

The Command Center is located at 1250 Poydras Avenue in the Eni Petroleum building.

“Acts of Civil Resistance are definitely possible,” added Sheehan. “BP and our government are obviously committing terrible crimes and criminal negligence in the Gulf of Mexico—it’s time for us to stand up.”

The new Emergency People’s Coalition will deliver this group of demands to the Command Center:

1) Stop oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. Full compensation, retraining and new employment, including public works, for all affected

2) The government and entire oil industry must allocate all necessary resources to stop and clean up the spill, prevent oil from hitting shore, protect wildlife, treat injured wildlife, and repair all devastation. Full support, including by compensation, must be given to peoples’ efforts on all these fronts and to save the Gulf.

3) No punishment to those taking independent initiative; no gag orders on people hired, contracted, or who volunteer; those responsible for this crime against the environment and the people should be prosecuted.

4) Full mobilization of scientists and engineers. Release scientific and technical data to the public; no more lying and covering up. Immediately end use of dispersants; full, open scientific evaluation of nature and impact of dispersants. Fund all necessary scientific and medical research.

5) Full compensation for all losing livelihood and income from the disaster.

6) Provide necessary medical services to those suffering health effects of the spill. Protect the health of and provide necessary equipment for everyone involved in clean up operations. Full disclosure of medical and scientific studies about the effects of the oil disaster.

[defendandprotect]

195. Wasn't posted here at DU . .. now we're ignoring anti-war protests . . .

and Cindy Sheehan?

[librechik]

41. a million and a half went to the streets to try to stop the Iraq war

page 3 or 16 in your local newspaper. Street demos don't get any attention unless they are Tea Party. The orders have gone out to ignore us and the media loves to do that.

I have no idea what we would have to do to get them to stop bending over backwards to prove they are not soft on liberals.

[socialist_n_TN]

42. OK I'm going to answer you, but also

as a general answer to several of the posters that have said the same thing more or less about the anti war marches in the early Aughts.

I think it all boils down to timing. Almost everybody actually DID support the Iraq war at the beginning of it. Not me of course. I ALWAYS wondered how the HELL we would invade a country that had NOTHING to do with the 9/11 attacks. But we were ALL (including the marchers)ACTUALLY in a minority on the issue at that time. In addition, the economy hadn't tanked yet. BP hadn't temporarily (I hope) destroyed the Gulf. I think that times are different now.

Now, I'm not saying that a million plus Lefties in the streets would "deserve" as much media as 30 Teabaggers in their cute little hats, but I DO think that we'd be hard to ignore. Or not. Who really knows? All I really know is that it's starting to FEEL more like it's time to do some direct activism.

[joe black]

46. I have a cute little hat.

It's called a go to hell hat and I'm in.

[librechik]

47. I understand your passion and frustration--by all means, organize and demonstrate

I've just noticed that the media has its own agenda and they no longer are interested in Hippies and their silly worrisome issues. You're right about the timing back then, that was when the media finally and completely caved to their Republican owners and decided to never allow the left a fair and equal voice. Eight, nine years later the situation has worsened as far as ownership and representation goes, even taking evenings on MSNBC into account. Believe me we are now so tightly ruled that I have serious doubts that even a vast, well-financed and motivated electorate can force any changes.

I point to the healthcare bill as a recent example. The obvious fix to our problems from any moral and factual standpoint was a single payer system, like expanding medicare to everybody. Many studies showed it would save the taxpayers billions, and save many lives. Consistently and over many months, the particulars of a medicare-for all- type bill was polling up in the high 60s and more. BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THE LEFT WANTED. Therefore, the media did everything it could to obscure the facts, concentrate on the horse race aspects of the politics, and allow almost no one but enemies of healthcare reform to speak on the subject. Their paychecks come from Republicans, and they do what the boss wants.

Turns out Obama had made a secret deal with the major stakeholders to kill the public option very early into the debate.No matter how many streets we walked, information we shared, calls we made, letters we wrote, nothing any demonstrator (and thousands of Single-Payer/Public Option advocates did demonstrate) None of it made a difference, or ever could have made a difference. The thing was done behind closed doors and our own savior Obama had sold us out. He blandly went on for months saying he would like to have something like a public option-- as everything that was vaguely like a public option got cut out of the bill.

Now I think people have power and "The People" have power. But many important rights we used to have, organizations we relied on are all just a memory. Generations have been raised to forget what it means to value American ideals like fair wages, fair treatment, equal justice for all. My grandchildren are going to have to fight those terrible, bloody battles all over again, for unionization (for example) all over again. "America" somehow just got pissed away behind closed doors, and "demonstrations" don't work any more.

And that's just in the matter of helping people get healthcare. When it comes to war, the odds are even more monstrously against us and in favor of the privileged few at the top.

We have to come up with something better and stronger because we are outgunned and outlawyered to the nth degree.
:cry:

[socialist_n_TN]

52. Yeah it's real discouraging, but

sometimes I just get so angry about EVERYTHING that's going on, that I feel the need for some sort of real action rather than just bitching on a keyboard in cyberspace.

I can't give up though. I've spent my whole life feeling this way. Leftie politics is a calling. It's GOT to be. Why else would you do it?

[William Z. Foster]

65. so that is that - good!

Of course the media is not our friend, of course the political system is rigged, of course the leaders won't do anything for us, of course corporations will never "do the right thing."

Hallelujah! We can stop looking to all of that stuff and get to work.

What is discouraging is when we keep doing things that don't work. Once you let go of any hope that any of that will ever work - that was all sort of an American suburban fantasy that was never relevant to very many people anyway - the sooner we can free up our intellects and creativity and get to work and get things done. The purpose of all that - media coverage of politics, the parties, the liberal organizations - is to keep us all real busy running on treadmills to nowhere, to discourage us, to soak up all of our time and energy, to steer us into dead ends.

Populations with far more disadvantages successfully overthrew tyranny. Let's stop making up excuses for ourselves. Let's be encouraged, not discouraged, that we are finally waking up to the fact that all of the things we have been trying over and over again will never work.

We have two choices - give up on each other and on the working class people and "work within the system" until the bitter end and it all collapses; or give up on the system and fight for each other and for all the working class people.

All of things we have been looking to - the media, the politicians, the parties, the corporations - are controlled by the haves. We cannot fight for the have-nots within the rules and systems set up to favor, support and perpetuate the positions and wealth of the haves.

[defendandprotect]

200. Think the MSM supported the wars -- not the public -- and certainly not the huge

anti-war protesters . . .

After the attacks, the anti-war was being ignored and somewhat dissipated --

but the sentiments are still alive, I believe -- !!

Quite some great deal of participation in my home town here pre-war --

and many of us participated in NYC demononstrations.

It's a MIC/corporate press war -- and sentiments -- PLUS FEAR -- that I think we see.

[Grinchie]

98. It's simple -- Stop consuming crap.

I know, it's too simple, it couldn't possibly work...

The amazing thing is that it does work. Just saying no to spending money is a mighty powerful act these days.. Just try it sometimes.

By food at the farmers fruit stand... Let the money go to the people that provide value, not Apple, Nike or T-Mobile.

Try walking...

If 20 million people did this at once, all from the comfort of their own homes, the PTB would pay attention.

[librechik]

116. I look back at the "brotherhood" we had for a moment back in the day

many of us moved out of the cities and back to the landand off the grid. It was a movement, not a fad, and it changed people's minds and lifestyles. We can't quite do that anymore. But there's got to be something.

Somebody has worked for decades to split us up and make us hate each other and not join together and organize (where our power against the moneyed few lies) We need to overcome that hypnosis and take back our country.

[William Z. Foster]

141. personal choice solutions

A growing majority of people in the country cannot afford bare necessities, which makes advocating cutting back a cruel joke.

Also, personal choice solutions work against working class solidarity and have a built in upper class bias. People are haning on by a thread and trying to survive and have no choices for the most part.

[Grinchie]

255. I'm here as an example that you can cut back to nearly nothing.

I saw the plight today in person, after passing by a dozen empty McMansions in "Paradise"

It was very disturbing to me, because every distressed property was the result of "Livin Large" attitudes and free money. Never mind the hundreds of acres of native forest that was destroyed to "Neutralize the Site"

Cruel joke huh... Try having your farm sold at auction some time Zoster, and we'll see how you feel then.

Working class solidarity.. Hrm.. Upper class bias.. Hrm.

So personal choice is not good? And it works against folk hanging on by a thread, and cutting back on a 139 cable tv bill helps the upper class?

What have you been smoking?

Personally, I see you trying to organize something, but you really have not paid any attention to what happens if you should succeed, so theoretical, you are just Brand X as Compared to Brand A. Same old seat of the pants idealism, very little real thought for what happens afterwards.

This whole flocking mechanism is what I think is wrong with politics these days. We have a pretty good set of guidlines already, it's called the U.S. Constitution, but it seems to be ignored quite a bit lately.

[William Z. Foster]

277. I am not an owner

I have never used credit, never owned property, and never had much in the way of consumer goods.

I don't see a dozen empty McMansions in "Paradise" as "the plight." I am sorry that their dreams failed, but will not lose any sleep over that and have never shared those dreams. I do not see empty luxury homes as the tragedy of America, nor do I blame the general public, the working class people for that.

I don't know why you felt the meed to make the rest of those remarks.

Notice that we are now talking about you and me personally? That is not politics. It is the ersatz substitute for politics of personal choices and personal lifestyles.

[Grinchie]

283. Perhaps you should take the plunge and actually experience true loss

Like the millions of other Americans that have lost everything to Capitalism run amok.

Without owning anything, how can you know how emotional people can get when losing their dream over a few bucks?

I've actually met people like you, they move from place to place looking for opportunity, but in the end, really have no conviction of real world experience at all. When things become boring, or the current hosts start asking for help, they pack up and leave for a new set of landlords..

I'm not syaing this is you, but the MO fits, simply because you are stuck on one topic and must be right no matter what.

If people can't take the plunge and tend a few chickens, when the majority of people spend thousands of dollars a year on "Ol Roy" for dogs the size of ponies, then do you really think they are able to take the plunge in becoming at least partially self sufficient?

For you it sounds like you think I'm saying that everyone should go live in a mud hut all at once... I'm not. I'm just asking people to TRY IT and make up their own minds... It's not so simple to provide your own food, water and energy. It takes thought and a lot of hard work.

It is very easy to protest in the comfort of your own home by cutting the cord from Cable TV, and only use the Internet for your entertainment. It's cheaper, and you choose what to watch, or read.

Furthermore, I work for myself, so I have no cummute overhead, and consume very little fuel. We eat only organic food and locally grown produce. We grow much of our own food, and the rest is left to the wildlife, but is available if the need arises.

Anybody can accomplish this, but you have to make that choice and stick with it. Uncle Sam the Flim Flam Man isn't going to help you accomplish this. In fact, he hates people like me, simply because they cannot track our spending habits and snare us into debt slavery.

I don't know what to tell you, but I entered this thread because I saw an incessant drumbeat to march, which I think is ill advised at the moment.

There is too much tension in the air and the anger is palpable. It's just my intuition, but all the signals point to something in the second half.

I think my point is that there are much easier ways to resist and make a statement. WalMart's quarterly profits falling 5% is a big statement..

Housing starts falling off a cliff is a big statement.

New Home Sales falling 32% is a big statement.

The Government can't cook the books forever...

[William Z. Foster]

285. whoa

Come on, what is with the personal remarks and analysis?

You don't know anything about me, and I am not judging you.

[Grinchie]

289. True that.

I can only gather from what you have written.

Everything we do makes a difference, I just don't want to see innocents gathered up in a big gill net and be frightened into submission by nasty experiences they may encounter.

I just pointed out that this needs to be accounted for in risk analysis of benefit vs expenditure of energy.

As I said before, I think Marchs have been hijacked by the Corporations as just another event to see increased sales of things marchers need.

It's disaster capitalism at it's most insidious, and I just want to see if you can wrap your head around that concept.

It's nothing personal, it's just common sense.

[William Z. Foster]

292. no worry

This is one of the biggest problems with personal politics. It gets personal.

I think what you are doing for yourself is great. It is not all that different from what I have done and am doing.

I think your political sensibilities and stances are great. Again, very similar to my own.

So we have more in common than not. However, when we make politics be all about our own individual personal choices, it is divisive as we just saw here. We start imagining what the other person is "like," whether they bare friend or foe, kindred spirit or not, like-minded or not, all based on superficial things.

Lead with the political stuff first rather than the personal, and we can build solidarity. Lead with the personal stuff first and we find reasons to disagree and start mis-communicating. The personal choice ideas as an approach to political issues just does not work. That does not mean your choices are wrong, nor that you shouldn't make them.

[Grinchie]

294. Ugh.. I believe that personal choice is what makes us strong.

It is only when we empower the individual to do what he or she loves, and determine the best action to take based on their individual strengths. Politics is a damaged construct, and depends upon the human need to be part of a club.

We have diminished the ability to be individual and unique, while at the same time catering to each individual by giving them the ability to be unique by the choice of slight different products offered to them to consume.

Meanwhile, many people have no love for work, simply because they hate what they do for a living, but they must conform or lose their income.

You see individuality as some sort of bad thing, while I see it as one of the most sacred freedoms we posess. I am unique, there is no doubt about that, and I am very fortunate to be able to filter out the noise, simply because I work at it and I enjoy it.

My life is very personal to me, because when I ignored my personal needs and desires, I fell into the same trap that many are enduring right now. It's hard to explain without telling you my life story, but take my word that restoring ones unique individualty to themselves is the most emporing thing there is. You become a nimble animal able to dart in an out of the path of the obstacles put in your path, and you develop a vision uncluttered by propaganda or politics.

Politics in my opinion means the same thing as a belief system laid down from on high. I'm finished with politics and focused on individual needs, not whats politically expediant or the current talking point.

I care more about people than I do for the Democratic party, which has abandoned the people they purportedly represent.

People cannot be abused continually and remain loyal.

[William Z. Foster]

318. we hold opposite points of view on this

You say that we have "diminished the ability to be individual and unique."

I think the opposite is true today to an extreme degree.

I would say that we have diminished the ability to be cooperative and social.

[bobbolink]

307. " A growing majority of people in the country cannot afford bare necessities, which makes

advocating cutting back a cruel joke."

That is right on the button. Any "progressive" who cannot or will not see this, is not in the category of "compassionate" any more than "compassionate conservatives" are.

Keep speaking this truth. It is a tragedy that so many are so resistant to understanding.

[defendandprotect]

207. Every time we use credit cards we're earning money for corporations . . .

if you can live without them do it -- it's adding huge amounts to

our costs for everything -- and all the banks/credit card companies have

to do is nothing -- they just sit back and we go out and earn money for them

every day simply by using the cards!

[Grinchie]

259. It's amazing how making an oath to by with cash changes buying habits.

You are right again Defend.

You are a lone voice in regards to the stranglehold Fiat Money has over Americans.. It causes them to sell their soul and ethics in order to preserve cash flow.

They think that their whole measure of success is based upon money alone. Without it, they lose any perception of self worth, and becomes slaves to the Corporations.

I see this time and again, but now a whole new set of people is being run through the meatgrinder. The ones with salable skills, yet they are part of the oversupply created by the housing bubble, there jobs destroyed, and assets dwindling every day. These are the people that have fruit trees and chickens laying a half a dozen eggs for them every day. They are making do the best they can, but it's grim out there.

[defendandprotect]

291. Think the time is right for discounts for cash -- just swiping the card costs businesses money . . .

:)

[William Z. Foster]

322. the banks prevent that

The banks won't let merchants give discounts for cash.

[defendandprotect]

324. Really . . ? How are they stopping them . . . ???

What jurisdiction would they have over cash?

[William Z. Foster]

325. they will cancel your account

The banks really have quite a scam going. Who is their customer? They don't treat anyone well, like a valued customer. They treat both the merchants and the card holders like crap and gouge both of them. Merchants really have to have a merchant account if they are going to honor their customers' desire to use a card with them. The bank can then dictate to the merchant, with the threat of denying them a merchant account (so that they will be unable to accept cards) if the merchant does not comply.

on edit - I forgot one detail. Representatives from the bank go around and spy to see if merchants are offering cash discounts.

[defendandprotect]

326. Wow . . . simply amazing fascism . . . !!! If you recall, there used to be gas stations

that gave discounts for cash -- think I recall that?

And I can make a deal with my dentist -- it's ridiculous . . . Am Express is something

like 7.5% on the balance -- other cards 3.5% -- If I give him a check ... and no

insurance . . . he's way ahead!!

Now ... why in the hell don't the merchants get together and blast this open?

I know the gasoline stations were furious when the gas prices kept going up --

cause they pay on the total.

Weird world we live in -- capitalism sucks!!

[William Z. Foster]

327. yes

You are correct. Gas stations were doing that. The banks put a stop to it.

[Grinchie]

297. It a technique to avoid any responsibility

It's like and engineer claiming that he doesn't see a defect in a product, and purposely excluding putting a photo of the defect in a report. The report is public record, but contains no damnig evidence of the defect or activity to be reviewed by anyone.


This ploy is used by everyone to get out of doing their jobs and hide reality.

It's actually very effective.

[Curmudgeoness]

43. I was also in the streets in the 60's/70's. Did it again before Iraq several times.

No press coverage at all. If I knew how to insert a picture here, I would show you how many of us were in DC trying to stop the invasion in Iraq. I don't know what the answer is, but without any coverage, you can have 10 million march and the rest of the country would never know it. (Although I have a feeling if you could get 10 million, they would find it hard to ignore.)

[Lorien]

48. When French farmers went to protest they parked their farm equipment

in the middle of all the highways going in and out of Paris, shutting down the city. Just sayin'.

[socialist_n_TN]

53. Yep. They do tend to be more inclined

to direct action in Europe.

Know any leftist truckers? Should be at least as good as farm equipment. :)

[dflprincess]

83. The French were in the streets this weeks because the government

wants to raise the retirement age to 62.

I love the French. We could learn from them.

[defendandprotect]

208. The article on that didn't get posted at DU . . .

"news" postings aren't what they used to be --

[handmade34]

49. long overdue

I'm going to New orleans tomorrow for "Hands Across the Sand" ...just a small start but it is something

http://www.handsacrossthesand.com/

[bdamomma]

50. we are like a ticking time bomb if we don't

the oil spill has me ready to march!! bp is screwing us and our country, or all oil companies they are fcuking up the many generations to come.

[inna]

51. I was just thinking, what will it take for the American people this time

to get back out in the streets? I think there is much more isolation and commodity fetishism now, compared to the 60s.

Recommend and :kick:

[socialist_n_TN]

54. Okay, I understood isolation, but explain

commodity fetishism? I'm not familiar with the term. Thanks for the k&r, BTW.

And to try and answer your question about what it will take, I kind of agree with a poster upthread. I think things are getting so bad that if we don't do SOMETHING, we'll all explode. At least, that's the way I personally feel. I just want to DO something.

[socialist_n_TN]

74. Never mind. I think I've got it...........

The advertising driven desire for the "next big thing that you just HAVE to have". At least I've never had that problem.

[William Z. Foster]

62. they are in the street

Los Angeles saw the largest political demonstration ever in its history, and that same weekend I saw people posting around the Internet "what would it ever take to get people in the streets?"

That massive disconnection is the problem, and that is not a problem with the general public, that is a problem with us.

The isolation and commodity fetishism and apathy and complacency are largely a problem with a small percentage of the populations - 10% or so - the educated people, the potential leadership and agitators of any mass movement. So long as we are talking "personal beliefs" and "personal choices" and apologizing one way or another for the system and for the ruling class we are working against the working class.

we are prone to project the experiences and reality of a very small percentage of the population onto the entire population. We cannot see our own bias and prejudice.

Once we have the courage to look in the mirror and see that it is the thinkers, writers and speakers who are missing in action, that this is the reason for the weakness of the left and the absence of any change, and stop pointing fingers at everyone else - the tea baggers, the low information voters, the WalMart shoppers, the stupid sheeple, the Blue Dogs and whatever - then things will start happening.

[OneGrassRoot]

103. fragmentation

That one word haunts me and is what I observe everywhere, especially with the wonders of the Internet.

There are so many great ideas, great causes, great organizations, great potential "movements."

But everything feels so fragmented.

Maybe fragmentation isn't bad; maybe I just see it as ineffective. I don't know.

I also feel the Urgency of Now but the fragmentation paralyzes me in many ways; it's not apathy, it's confusion more than anything, to be perfectly honest.

[inna]

149. well, *I* am certainly not pointing fingers, and I've been to pretty much every single

local protest since 2003, tyvm.

And no, there is no mass movement to speak of, and most people ARE complacent, afraid, propagandized and lack social/class consciousness and solidarity.


"So long as we are talking "personal beliefs" and "personal choices" and apologizing one way or another for the system and for the ruling class we are working against the working class.

we are prone to project the experiences and reality of a very small percentage of the population onto the entire population. We cannot see our own bias and prejudice.

Once we have the courage to look in the mirror"


I'm not projecting, and frankly I found your comment misdirected (to say the least) in case it was targeted at me personally.
And I don't know about you, but I *am* working class. And quite aware of everything that's been going on.

[William Z. Foster]

176. no

I am not arguing with you or directing my comments at you, I am expanding on your post. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you.

We are all working class. (There may be a few exceptions to that here, a few independently wealthy people.)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

113. When it gets bad enough, and people are willing to die for what they believe

[datasuspect]

300. a program that offers free guns for illegal immigrants?

[amborin]

55. K&R

[William Z. Foster]

56. organize

Street demonstrations are of no value if they are not part of an organization.

[socialist_n_TN]

58. True. Unfortunately that's not one of my strong points

Good to see you on another thread. The "question for leftists" has kept you hopping. :)

[William Z. Foster]

59. hi

As a courtesy, I committed myself to responding to any responses that might be posted on the "question for leftists" thread since it was potentially controversial. I expected 20 or 30 responses and maybe an hour's worth of work thanking people for posting and answering any questions. Instead it got over 700 posts and went on for over three days.

We need to dump the pervasive corporate model for organizations and go back to what was successful in the past. Start by meting in small groups locally. Talk. It will evolve from there. Don't be afraid of participatory democracy. We don't need some grand plan nor some charismatic celebrity leader, nor funding, nor mass media coverage. We need courage and clarity and commitment. Those have been missing.

Seeking funding will always lead sooner or later to corporate sponsorship of one form or another, since corporations control all resources - "partnering" is the word that is in vogue. Look at what has happened with the Sierra Club and BP - notice how missing in action they and the other liberal environmental groups that took money from BP are these days? "Partnering with BP for a greener future." Uh huh.

[bobbolink]

61. That's just what I am doing locallly. A small group, very mixed.

Affluent and poor, Anglo and Latina, etc.

Since I don't have my own place for a meeting, I am sponsored by two churches, which some here will scream about, but I really don't think I'm in any danger of being coopted. ^_^

The one thing I am doing differently is starting with Listening Skills practice. Surprisingly, that turned out to be one of the selling points... something that people were attracted to.

Wish me luck!

[William Z. Foster]

69. very good

We don't know from which group the spark will come. Nothing is more powerful than small groups meeting and talking about the crisis. All great successful movements for social justice started this way. The rulers and controllers want us to think in big flamboyant terms - getting lots of money, getting lots of media coverage, promoting and advertising ourselves, forming a team with a catchy brand name and logo, getting movers and shakers "on our side" etc. In other words, play their game on their turf by their rules.

Do you know what the rulers and control freaks most fear? Small groups of committed people meeting in earnest and having serious discussions and asking the question - "what is to be done?" That is the greatest danger to the power and position of our tormentors - that we are quietly meeting and talking and not playing their game anymore.

[bobbolink]

57. What would be the objective?

What is the goal to accomplish?

Protesting for the sake of protesting doesn't do much of anything. What is needed is to convert hearts and minds.

Would a protest as you envision it accomplish that?

[socialist_n_TN]

66. I think that that's why organizing is NOT one of my

strong points. I'm actually pretty good at focusing for anything else, but for some reason when it comes to politics there's so MUCH that I'm pissed about that it's hard for me to pick one thing. I do talk to people one to one about things, mostly from an anti capitalist direction, without actually SAYING that, but it doesn't feel like it's enough.

I'm good with signs, slogans, just general communication with all SORTS of people which I know could be positive SOMEWHERE the movement, but where?

I think that mostly I just want the left to have a VOICE that's paid attention to. I honestly think that the country is actually turning MORE towards our views, but it's so diffuse right now that it's hard for anybody to tell. Kind of like me. :)

I guess that's why I was thinking about street demonstrations.

[William Z. Foster]

75. never mind that

This urge to have them - the powerful few - pay attention to us is the position of a rebellious teenager trying to get a reaction or a favor from their parents. They never will listen, until forced, and we will never get anywhere so long as we think of ourselves as children.

Our strength is not in money, advertising, promotion, marketing, grants, beautiful people, the mass media - dump all of those ideas. Our strength is in each other - the "nobodies" - and eventually in numbers. Nothing will ever get the leaders to pay attention, to care, to do the right thing. They are not misguided parents who merely need to be reached. They are evil tyrants trying to kill us.

Organize a handful of people to meet once a week and talk. Don't know what to do? talk about that. Don't know what to talk about? Talk about that. We have to get serious and we have to start somewhere.

We need to wrench our gaze away from the glitzy circus, the media, the politicians, the glamorous and successful people, and toss all of our ideas about "what works" and "how things are." The way things work is "against us" and the "way things are" is the problem.

Get some "nobodies" together and talk about being nobodies, being have-nots. Why that is, where that is, how it works, the price we are all paying for it every day.

"This is intolerable and we have to start meeting and talking about it." That is a more powerful start than anything else we are doing.

[socialist_n_TN]

79. That's not a bad idea at ALL......

Just get a group together and talk about it. That would eventually lead to specific grievances being aired and discussed, which would lead to specific actions to counter the grievances.

[William Z. Foster]

80. have confidence

The big tent is the have-nots. Whatever it is that people are being denied, it all comes from the same source, the opposition is the same, the social mechanisms are the same. Work from that common cause. One person does not have a job, another does not have health care, another does not have a home, another does not have equal rights. NONE of us have equal rights - it is all skewed to the wealthy, everywhere at all levels and in every institution and organization. NONE of us have hones or jobs or food or health care except at the whim of some corporation, all answering to the wealthy few through the channel of Wall Street.

If that is not a basis for a massive social movement for justice, nothing will ever be.

The Civil Rights movement was organized starting with small groups organized around one basic intolerable fact - people of color were being denied equality at every turn, were abused, murdered and persecuted. Today we are ALL being denied equality at every turn, are all at risk of being abused, murdered and persecuted.

[bobbolink]

139. There you go! That is it!

And, here is my further suggestion... do something different---begin with teaching listening skills, so that people actually start to hear each other, rather than just trying to push their own agendas.

THAT is what will truly change this society, and create peace!

[William Z. Foster]

155. yes

Rather than "speaking truth to power" we need to listen to the powerless.

There is a pervasive upper class bias in the activist community that is reflected in all of the ideas people talk about. People look to corporate models for political organizing - centralized hierarchical structure, sales and marketing and branding ideas - and look to gentrified upper middle class approaches for getting things done - personal consumer choice ideas, obsession with getting on mass media, looking up to charismatic celebrities for validation, talk of "working within the system" - kissing the asses of the powerful - "speaking truth to power" - whining to Mommy and Daddy about what we want as though we were spoiled upper middle class teenagers.

[bobbolink]

156. "Rather than "speaking truth to power" we need to listen to the powerless."

That says it all.

So simple, really.

Yet, getting "progressives" to hear this, let alone to actually DO it, will take some sort of miracle.

That is why I am going in a totally different direction.

Enough with head meeting brick wall. :banghead:

[bobbolink]

138. Throw in a few choklit cookies in that meeting, and I am in! ^_^

Two things recently have affected me.... in the short vid of Cesar Chavez that I posted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4ya_Gyq80&feature=related

Please watch this, because it underscores what you are saying.

When he was asked if he lost the current effort, wouldn't that be the end of the farm workers union? He replied that was nonsense: "They have the money, but we have the people." And that is it in a nutshell.

He also talked about sacrifice, and that is something that is common to all the great Civil Rights movements in this country, but something we seem to have forgotten.

I also watched the movie MILK, and that is exactly what Harvey Milk did... he organized small groups, AND integrated *his* cause, Gay Rights, with the other causes of the people on the bottom of the heap.... people of color, disabled people, etc. That was his real strength... his concern for all the "us's of the world", as he put it.

Just meditating on those two heros gives us much direction, if we only choose to follow it!

Let their words and actions have meaning to us now, and guide us!

[agent46]

314. Don't need no stinkin' business plan!

Our strength is not in money, advertising, promotion, marketing, grants, beautiful people, the mass media - dump all of those ideas. Our strength is in each other - the "nobodies" - and eventually in numbers.

I appreciate your contributions here William. Reading your post it occurred to me that part of the impulse behind the counter-culture of the sixties was that people wanted to unplug from the "establishment" and create intrinsically relevant culture and politics among and for themselves. During my childhood and teen years I was exposed to the counter-culture first hand. (My family had a beatnik/hippie streak.) :smoke:

Lately, impressions I had at the time are coming back full circle. I remember:

The war was real.
Segregation and racism were real.
The police state was real.
Our leaders were being killed and imprisoned.
People shared what they had.
It was good to care.
Loving and honoring the ways of nature was a given.
People practiced and shared practical crafts.
People shared skills with the community
People cooked and ate simply at home.
There was a daring sense of breaking down accepted social constraints.
People made their own clothes and created their own fashions.
People made their own music and performance and entertained each other.
People often had conversations about important issues. The art of conversation around the table in the evenings was a common pastime.
People used their own music and theater to get the message out.
People extended friendship and trust easily and got to know each other.
There was an acceptance and even a celebration of "difference".

That's just a few impressions off the top, but the point to me is these people (who called themselves revolutionaries) sought to create a culture among themselves outside the jurisdiction and influence of the established white protestant industrial war state.

The authoritarian capitalist machine sold us the cars. They sold us the bomb and the Cold War. They sold us television. They sold us the tiky-tak suburbs and the 9 - 5 at the boss' company. And they've been selling us our exploitative "Coca-Cola" red white and blue media-spun consumer identity for generations since - American culture through a plastic straw - all engineered and marketed, signed into law and set into stone in the interest of the corporate bottom line. I don't need to continue the litany of what we've been expected to buy into over the last two decades but now the system is so top heavy and entrenched it's become toxic and is imploding all over us.

Like the people who tried to create a counter-culture in the 60s, I think it will take a clean conscious break from the entire corporate value system for people to establish a new American cultural movement that isn't listening to the great lie or using its techniques and frames. It's possible now to establish a national discourse using the web technology and infrastructure available to everyone to propagate positive change. It's the power of an idea. The idea of culturally unplugging from the machine and fostering new values in our communities and neighborhoods.

I agree it starts with people simply introducing themselves to each other and having conversations about what matters to them. Meeting in homes with pizza and beer or having coffee. Anyway, starting at the ground level with simple discussions. Conversation. Informal connections. That's the soil for political change to sprout in. It will inevitably come together and become purposeful action.

Creating a new culture. It's fun. It's free. And they can't bust you for it. Yet.
:patriot:

I agree with your idea William. It's time for Americans to unplug and create change starting with a willingness to openly discuss and consider new ideas.

Tune in and drop out! Change is not a registered trademark. Cheers!:hippie:

[bobbolink]

136. Thank you for sharing yourself so honestly. I understand your gifts better now, and they

are VERY important gifts!

First, that you are speaking one to one with people is THE most important thing! You are working at conversion and as Martin Luther King pointed out, that is the long-term goal. The awareness that you are raising lasts a lifetime in the minds of those you reach. A demonstration is momentary..... a personal contact is much deeper.

I hear that it doesn't seem like enough, and I very much appreciate that you want so much to do more. It sounds like you have some very important gifts, and believe me, there is much need for those gifts!

People are very confused now, but in their guts they know what is right, and I have no doubt that you are converting many, even though it seems futile.

I was involved in the rallies and demonstrations during the 60s era, and what I know is that they were thought-out. We were constantly meeting and discussing all these things...goals were agreed upon, and our actions were geared toward those goals. AFter each action, we would meet and discuss how it went, what seemed to "work" and what needed to be changed or redirected. None of that happens now.... it is demonstration for the sake of demonstraing.

While "venting" has value, what is really needed is figuring out how to convert people.. how to take the frustration and confusion they are feeling, and turn it into understanding. The demonstrations of old no longer work in this way, and it is time to evaluate and formulate new methods. Those new methods may look quite different from what we did in the 60s.

Just my take on it, but I think it has merit.

I hope to hear more from you.......clearly, your heart is in the right place and that is the best starting point!

:yourock:

[KonaKane]

60. Hitting the streets doesn't work anymore.

I wish it weren't so.

[Hannah Bell]

64. how's that?

[KonaKane]

70. I mean its ineffective. It is nothing but a feel good rave for supporters.

I was an organizer for street demonstrations for two Gulf Wars. Millions of people poured out into the streets against them. It didn't do a shat out hill of beans worth of good.

We have to start exploring new ways of redressing government for grievances, because that one has lost its punch.

[marions ghost]

105. why does it work for Republicans?

n/t

[daleanime]

110. Because it serves....

the corporate interest, so one hundred people with Obama is Hitler posters get one hundred hours of air time. This provides cover for the corporate pets in DC who can then say that they are serving the public interest. While a million marching against those interest will never show up on MSM (in any positive way).

[urgk]

124. Because they're better at establishing and re-enforcing their brand.

"The Tea Party" has historic significance and an almost immediate gravity, coupled with patriotism. We don't have anything with that kind of weight that's as easily turned into a soundbite. All the media has to do is say "Tea Party" and people think they know the story.

We need that kind of branding. It's what helped drive the Obama campaign. "Yes we can" was motivational, powerful, inspirational and told the story in and of itself.

If we could march under a banner with that much branding power, but branding backed by what was right and just and backed by the force of what this country was meant to be, it would make more noise.

[marions ghost]

145. we resist branding and soundbites I guess...

so what's a name for a mass movement?

[urgk]

250. Yeah, we do. Which hurts us in the end.

Because so much of the population is easily swayed. It's hard to vote against "The Patriot Act" or "No Child Left Behind" by design. It's hard to take higher ground against "The Moral Majority."

And I don't know what the mass movement should be named, but I'd love to see a thread that asks DU to come up with one. With the brains in this forum, we should be able to find something as effective as "The Tea Party" but more honest. Any ideas? I keep thinking something with Paul Revere might be nice. With the implication that it's a warning, but this time against an invasion of selfish, idiotic schemes disguised as policy.

Any ideas?

[socialist_n_TN]

323. Solidarity Movement...............

I REALLY like that. We can take advantage of the positives that came out of the Polish original.

[marions ghost]

330. well

a movement with an identity might make some sense, to counter the Tea Party. Trouble is, liberal principles have been utterly trashed in this country, and to a large extent, around the world. These are times of conservative dominance. But if the word 'liberal' weren't used, it might speak to people just on the principles. At least we would feel we had a visible identity, instead of always being the invisible wing of the DLC Democratic Party. So this wouldn't be a third political party, but a way to beef up our group identity and put pressure on the Dems to stand up for enlightened liberal principles, ie. to begin to reflect the views which are currently marginalized as far left wing (and therefore extreme).

Wouldn't hurt to put up a thread urgk. I'm sure DUers would have some good ideas.

[KonaKane]

182. Republicans dont march. They band together and VOTE.

As much as I cannot stand them, we could learn that much from them.

[defendandprotect]

209. Because Republicans finance and support the T-baggers....they created them . . .

Meanwhile did you see any Democratic Party officials announcing a rally

for SINGLE PAYER health care?

What if we had come out for MEDICARE FOR ALL?

We'd be ignored or attacked --

The Democratic Party isn't supporting liberal/progressive causes -- that's obvious!

And, that includes anti-war demonstrations!

How much worse than this can things gets within the party?!

[TransitJohn]

67. It's getting to the point, where I'm no fun anymore.

:hi:

[End Of The Road]

112. Sometimes it hurts so badly I must cry out loud.

(That would be the arthritis in my knees.)

[Historic NY]

68. yeah the teabagger had hundred of thousands out there....so I guess its time.

[KonaKane]

184. Every teabagger rally I have heard of was a dismal failure in terms of numbers.

Which ones are you talking about?

[Historic NY]

281. I was being sarcastic but you can bet the LSM will report the numbers as low.

:sarcasm:

[janet118]

72. How about today? MoveOn has actions at beaches nationwide

Hands Across the Sand

Just enter your zip and find closest beach.

If nothing else, it's a good place to meet others in your community who want to express their disgust with what's happening in the Gulf.

[donheld]

73. I've been wondering more and more

What's it going to take to get people off their asses and into the streets. I'm just stunned that American people take more and more crap and do nothing about it.

[lonestarnot]

77. I have been to so many damn street protests that my feet turned into two balls of

plantars fasciitis with toenails. What good did it do? Fuckers just ignored us.

[Incitatus]

78. I think we are definitely simmering, it it continues to get worse this will boil over.

Of course, there wasn't all the distractions today that allowed people to shove their heads in the sand that there were decades ado.

[zenprole]

85. Ready, Set, Set, Set...

It's long past time when politicians, corporate leaders, and other vermin should be fleeing to their tax havens. The reasons it hasn't happened yet aren't technological or even demographic, but cultural: people here behave like slaves.

Mark Ames's brilliant "Going Postal" (2005) goes into detail, comparing the culture of three centuries of chattel slavery with modern corporate wage slavery. Of course, he doesn't glorify the phenomena, pointing out that the handful of slave rebellions were just as fruitless as modern workplace violence. The book isn't prescriptive, but the clear answer is more solidarity across race, culture, gender, and class lines. Once resistance becomes organized, there are many choices for forcing change into existence.

No matter what forces the corporate government fields, from mercenaries to high technology to various corrupt institutions, they don't stand a chance against a well-organized populace. Here's to it.

[daleanime]

111. Education....

education, education, our first priority.

[rationalcalgarian]

92. I'm there

[eowyn_of_rohan]

107. Armchair protestors

Someone posted a thread asking if any protests are in the works against BP's continuing use of Corexit. I looked online and all I found was this (already held on June 15)

BATON ROUGE COREXIT PROTEST, JUNE 15
About 50 people and a good chunk of media came out. The sun was blazing hot, the speakers were blazing hot, and our message was clear: STOP COREXIT NOW, SAFETY FOR CLEANUP WORKERS NOW. Looking ahead, will we stage our next rally in the middle of a weekday? Mmmmaybe not. But for now, thanks to all who attended, thanks to our speakers, and thanks to our co-organizer for this event, the Southeast Louisiana Shrimp Alliance


A MEASLEY 50 PEOPLE SHOWED UP!!!

The last time I was a part of street protests was in 2004 & 2005, against the 2nd stolen election and resulting bogus inaguration of the chimp, but except for a couple events, the turnout was very low - really stunning and disheartening.

I think a major reason is people are afraid...as one poster asked "Who's going to bell the cat?"

[Kievan Rus]

114. Few care even now. As long as they have bread and circuses, they won't

[harmonicon]

115. what streets?

There are no streets for people to "take to" anymore. That has been a large part of urban and suburban planning for a long time. Taking to the streets isn't that possible when everyone has to drive there first.

[southernyankeebelle]

118. Am 62 but I never was a protester. But I honestly think it is time for people especially the

.young to get back out there on the streets and protest peacefully. Today is a different environment. But am afraid for the american people. Corporations are running our country. We need to start electing liberal democrats and republicans to bring back the damn supreme court to where it should be. The supreme court is owned by corporations. People need to wake up. The people on the right can't see the forrest for the trees.

[Cyrano]

119. Reinstate the military draft and people will be on the streets in a heartbeat

The street demonstrations of the 1960s were driven mostly by the military draft. Reinstate it and college kids will lead the way to mass demonstrations against everything from corporatism, to political corruption, to every other injustice imaginable.

[urgk]

120. I think it's time for Ann Rand's "Atlas" to notice who he's stepping on.

I'm tired of subsidizing the wealthy; tired of absorbing the social and economic impact of their endless pursuit of profit. Every time they move factories to Mexico, we pay the cost. Every time they downsize, we pay the cost. Every time they recklessly pursue the bottom line with undue consideration to the toxic garbage they're dumping in our air, our soil and our water, we pay the cost.

They start wars for oil or for military strategy and we pay over a trillion dollars. They give their friends tax cuts and, in the long run (according to Paul Krugman), we pay $4.4 trillion. They file for bankruptcy and liquidate our pension funds.

This crap has got to stop. I don't care if people are wealthy, but when they accumulate that wealth by devouring the lives, the will and the income of the poor and middle class, I draw the line.

The way I see it, our Constitutional rights work as spheres extending out from our persons. When the rights of those who would pursue profit start to interfere with my rights to live in a functional Democracy, it's the job of my representatives to step in to make and enforce laws to stop them. If they fail to do so, it's my responsibility to make enough noise that they start to listen.

[urgk]

122. It might need to be a march coupled with a strike.

If it's one thing those ****ers pay attention to, it's their pocketbooks.

Could you imagine what would happen if JUST Democratic, minimum wage workers went on strike? Nationally? Got up as one voice and demanded to be treated as humans, rather than as a business expense? Holy crap. Add to that the middle and upper class Democrats nationwide?

It might make it a little harder for those Randian, "conservative" idiots to believe that it's Atlas, rather than the people he's standing on, the people he's devouring by the fistful, who holds the world.

In fact, One Voice - might be a nice, unifying banner.

[90-percent]

126. Remaining time to save our democracy

Thanks to the Citizen's United decision this past January, if "we" don't achieve profound change IN THE NEXT FIVE MONTHS, this country will be devoid of democracy and will morph into a full blown totalitarian corporate police state.

Conservatives have forever wrecked the gifts our Founding Fathers bestowed upon us.

It's too late. We blew it.

-90% Jimmy

[Citizen Worker]

127. A march on D.C. would send a message but...

why not consider a simultaneous march on all of the state capitols instead? A march on D.C., would be difficult and expensive for many to participate in and once we came together to protest we'd all go home and the spectacle would disappear. I'm on the west coast and getting to D.C., would take some time and involve a good deal of expense but the state capitol is 70 miles away. We could do the march on July 4 and call it Interdependence Day or on Labor Day and call it a Solidarity Day with the unemployed. What say you all?

[socialist_n_TN]

134. I can understand that, but as a poster upthread said

we can walk and chew gum at the same time. We could couple a DC march WITH state capital marches and protests AND I would offer a weekend "buying" strike, other than from small business owners.

[William Z. Foster]

146. no value in sending a message

Send a message to whom? What message? For what purpose?

I think we need to dump the "speaking truth to power" idea. Power isn't listening, doesn't care, and never will. The people in power are not benevolent if misguided parents, and we should not see ourselves as pleading teenagers.

[socialist_n_TN]

128. Everybody go to demwing's post "Solidarity March"

if you have interest and ideas for doing something about this. We should try and make that the actual organizational thread.

[happy_liberal]

132. There is a march already happening July 4-17 in DC

Huge Protest July 4th to July 17th in Washington DC

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8639789&mesg_id=8639789

[happy_liberal]

137. If you cannot make it- PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD

It seems there are very few people that know about this protest and it is next weekend.

They don't have ANSWER and TrueMajority's email list(and why aren't they helping?) so anyone who can help spread this info PLEASE do!

[scentopine]

133. Yes - we need to fight the centrists at the center of American mediority, centrists

will tell you that getting angry doesn't work. It does. Anger fuels change and this is very disruptive to the orderly world of the corporate centrist. Centrists are well taken care of so they'll fight change.

On the other hand war, centrists support some of the angriest and violent politics of all - perpetual war, off shore drilling, immunity for torturers, wall street bailouts, outsourcing, etc. Time to fight back against the right wing in both parties. We need to keep the angry centrists from using their aggression against us in the form of destructive public policy and destructive legislation.

Surely, there is a better way for centrists to express their anger.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

135. Long, long, past the time. nt.

[caseymoz]

140. Yes, in fact, I'll protest.

I predict that as things get worse, protests are going to build and build through the summer.

[B Calm]

144. I've had enough of this CHEAP LABOR CONSERVATISM!!!

[MissDeeds]

153. I'm in

It's time to stop asking for change and start demanding it.

K&R

[Odin2005]

157. The Corproate Media will ignore it, choosing to obsess over 100 teabaggers.

That is how the PTB manufacture "reality", if it's not on the "nooze" then it didn't happen.

We need to take control of society at a local level, and quit appealing to out corrupt Fascist government to be kind enough to give us table scraps.

[KonaKane]

185. Precisely. A million people in the street ignored in the press is useless.

From what I recall, huge public protests were FOR the press so that it had the best chance of influencing public opinion. When that went away with the new press apathy toward demonstrations (especially those on the left), it pretty much gutted the effectiveness of marches.

[Odin2005]

258. IMO the PTB have encouraged the "politics of screaming demands" so we let off steam without DOING...

...anything substantive against the PTB.

[newspeak]

309. but when you say it is useless, then

they've accomplished their mission-guaranteeing no more protests from the plebes. We should have been protesting the media from the start. Corporate owned with subsidiaries that have their hands in other interests, including war. It is media that sets the stage on who will be chosen as the primary candidates-giving numerous access to "swift boaters" and repetitious talking head lies about the "Dean scream." The talking heads have been influencing those who are factually lacking for quite some time. The hate spewers pander to people's pre-conceived prejudices and point fingers at those who are the weakest, to deflect blame from those who are truly responsible. I believe the true goal is to divide us; thus weakening any form of dissent--and they've done such a great job.

Remember Poppy and Little Boots hired PR firms to SELL wars to the public. Everything is packaged and sold to the public, even those policies that are the most harmful to the public. Reading "Toxic Sludge is Good for You," I remember a part of the book where Hitler thanked the PR companies in America, since they used the PR ideas to SELL the Germans on their heinous policies.

[KonaKane]

311. Correct. We need to SELL our ideas. Marches don't do that anymore.

I wish they did. I do long for the good old days of mass marches being news story number one - but that just aint the case anymore. I'll repeat - those marches are useless anymore for affecting change.

This isn't all bad. It just means we have to get creative and come up with the next great ways to change public sentiment. You said it yourself; we have to sell our package to the people. Right now I don't see us doing much of that. We are divided and fighting against ourselves even though we are technically in power in DC, we are unsure or divided in our own message amongst us, we tear each other down, we scream against things instead of for better things. The public sees all that and comes away with "the Democrats are just for tearing things down."

How do we unify our message and sell it to people? That is the question of the year.

[urgk]

335. "We need to SELL our ideas"...absolutely.

But I wouldn't throw out the marches. I'm still holding out hope that some of the networks are more ratings-driven than ideology-driven and that if we had a catchy enough banner, we could, in essence, market our idea to them. I mean, FOX would ignore anything from the left, but if we had our own "Tea Party" label, something appropriate, but that would spark the interest of the executives hell-bent on viewership numbers, they'd run it. Especially if it started to drive those numbers up.

"How do we unify our message and sell it to people? That is the question of the year."

100% Agreed.

[BlueIris]

159. I feel I've more than served my time.

On the streets, anyway. But I do "vote with my dollars" and won't be giving any money to any Democrats (or the vile corporations they bow to) until I see some major improvement.

[defendandprotect]

161. Think most of us are surprised that hasn't happened -- NO DRAFT I think is key ....

because no young men are being directly threatened by military enlistment --

TPB have been thru this before -- many times -- from the beginning of times --

they've probably found that indirect manipulation works better in keeping the

crowds at home.

As every day gets hotter from Global Warming -- and this is June in NJ right now

and we're at 90 degrees and more for weeks now -- as the rains start to come down

harder and faster prodcing more and more flooding -- as the chaotic weather begins

to present more and more upheaval in our communities -- it will be too late to

try to do anything but survive.

Earth Day? It was supposed to be a growing movement each year to bring people out

into the streets to be educated as to what is happening on this planet -- barely

mentioned anymore!

We are suffering the violence of the Corporate Crusade --

[William Z. Foster]

177. no organizations

We have no working class organizations.

By the time the draft became an issue, there were already large and powerful organizations - Labor and Civil Rights for example. The draft drew millions of new relatively upscale and largely white people into the movement, but in my opinion that is what destroyed the movement and set a pattern for activism that we have been stuck in ever since - the politics of self-expression and self-interest, of personal choice and personal beliefs.

[defendandprotect]

213. True . . . corporations are organized every which way, up, down, sideways--!!

Americans aren't united, at all --

Look at all the senior citizens threatened by cuts and attacks on Social Security

and Medicare -- they're not united in any way -- !! AARP is an insurance company!!

Do you see AARP calling senior citizens out to protest???


You have some intereting, but confusing takes on what happened -- and truthfully I wasn't

involved -- by the time I was ready to come out into the streets I had two toddlers and

it was about all over.


no organizations
We have no working class organizations.

By the time the draft became an issue, there were already large and powerful organizations - Labor and Civil Rights for example. The draft drew millions of new relatively upscale and largely white people into the movement, but in my opinion that is what destroyed the movement and set a pattern for activism that we have been stuck in ever since - the politics of self-expression and self-interest, of personal choice and personal beliefs.

Don't know that we actually disagree . . .

but the way I see it, we had the youth Revolution which was a widespread attack on authority --

it wasn't just about sex, it was about much more -- but right wing uses "Sexual Revolution" to

try to demean the movement. (See below)

The right wing understood this was an overall threat to elitism and their authority --

GOP gave start up funding to the Christian Coalition -- other wealthy right wingers financed

Dobson's organization and Bauer's organization. It's all faked, just like T-baggers.

We created the Taliban/Al Qaeda to lure Russian into Afghanistan -- and we created -- wrote

and printed -- the violent Muslim religious textbooks we heard so much about here in America ---

and we shipped them into the ME trying to create a violent strain of Islamic religion.

Patriarchy is the basis of authority -- its underpinning is organized patriarchal religion --

and religion has always been the first tool out of the toolbox when control is needed -- a means

to co-opt other societies -- native Americans, etal. Papal Bulls licensing their enslavement

or murder.

The Drug War played another large role in making citizens frightened of one another, providing

a way to miliarize our police -- create the new shiny prison industry mainly on the backs of

minorites. We've used it to co-opt and take over other natons -- dictate to them.

And overcoming the "Vietnam Syndrome" was major for them -- they profit from war -- commit

crimes behind wars -- return to violent and "macho" themes throughout society.

Perpetual war is a money maker.

The closing chapter was free corporations to steal from government --

create homelessness, increase poverty -- and now huge joblessness.

Trade agreements which Clinton put in place and Obama isn't amending nor overturning!!


Also, keep in mind that with Bill Buckley's death/CIA we began to find out that the CIA

had long been funding the campaigns of right wingers in Congress -- two mentioned were

Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerry Brown. There were others. CIA took money from any

right wing organization -- including KKK, John Birchers and Nazis.


Further, I've read that there were times when the Federal Budget for education contained

money for the CIA -- sometimes 50% of the budget!

"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

[SILVER__FOX52]

163. Right on, BRO !!!

Power to the People !!!!

[Rex]

168. No it is getting time for the corporate overlords to seize what little

personal integrity we 'little people' have left and crush it until we all want to buy Prel. :sarcasm:

[bvar22]

174. The Ukraine showed us how to do this,

Venezuela showed us HOW to do this.

There IS an important element missing in the USA:
A National Leader that is willing to call us to STAND with him/her.

Without this figurehead, the Spokesperson for a movement, mass demonstrations will be chaotic and lack direction.
TPTB KNOW this, and have engaged in preemptive decapitations of any Grass Roots Populist movements....either through their control of the MSM (SEE: Dean Scream), or real life assassinations.

Had Al Gore called us to STAND with HIM on the Capitol steps until the votes were counted in Florida,
I would have been there.

Had John Kerry called us to STAND with HIM on the Capitol Steps until the voting regularities in Ohio were resolved, I would have been there.

[defendandprotect]

219. Completely agree with you . . .

We are missing leadership because the right wing has been using political violence

for the past 50 years and more to see to it that it is eliminated or doesn't rise --

leadership no longer arises because they eliminate it immediately at the first promise

of it --

Since the JFK assassination the Europeans have observed . . .

"In America, liberal and progressive have an odd way of being assassinated or otherwise

eliminated."

TPTB KNOW this, and have engaged in preemptive decapitations of any Grass Roots Populist movements....either through their control of the MSM (SEE: Dean Scream), or real life assassinations.

and . . .

Had Al Gore called us to STAND with HIM on the Capitol steps until the votes were counted in Florida,
I would have been there.

and . . .

Had John Kerry called us to STAND with HIM on the Capitol Steps until the voting regularities in Ohio were resolved, I would have been there.

Great observations --

Many of us were trying to interact at the time -- but it wasn't happening within the party.

GOP has to "create/finance" their movements --

But the Democratic Party didn't call out members to express their support for MEDICARE FOR

ALL -- 76% of Americans wanted SINGLE PAYER HEALH CARE! They were ignored.

Same with anti-war movement -- not only be ignored by our corporate press but also by the

Democratic Party!!

Where are the anti-war rallies? A few might support them -- Grayson, Kucinich, Franken,

Whitehouse -- quite a few -- but Pelosi and Reid are refinancing these wars since '06!!

[amandabeech]

246. My Ukrainian housemate says that the U.S. gov, probably in the form of the CIA,

helped the Ukrainians get organized. He was not a supporter of the other guy, but he sure wondered where all the orange clothing and professionally made signs came from in a very poor country.

This time, the U.S. gov will be against us.

[bvar22]

249. Yes.

The US Government is already against us.
They wish to keep the "Two Party Money Machine System" in place, and rotate Presidential SpokesModels every 8 years to maintain the illusion of choice....but nothing that really matters has changed since the 60s, or WILL change unless something happens to challenge the Two Party System.
After the 2008 elections and performance of the Democratic Party, I have given up any real HOPE of real CHANGE.

The Police State preemptive Thought Crime arrests and detentions in Minneapolis/St Paul immediately before the Republican Convention were an illustration of how far we have fallen down the hole.

I fear it will have to get worse before it gets better, and with today's weaponry, crowd control, sophisticated political marketing, and surveillance technology...it may never get better sans a complete collapse.
I won't live to see it.

[totodeinhere]

189. Are Democratic senators "paid for toadies in the Senate?"

If that's the case, then what's the point? Why should I even work to elect one of the "paid for toadies" (in my case Harry Reid since I am in Nevada) in the Senate with a "D" behind their name? And if the Democrats have also sold out to the corporations, then what am I doing at a board called "DEMOCRATIC Underground?" I don't want to patronize sellouts.

[socialist_n_TN]

210. Well of course, I was mostly talking about the

Republicans, but there was ONE Senator with a D by his name that voted to stand WITH the Republicans against the unemployment insurance extension. But even the one's with a D by their name might be encouraged to be a little more left if they thought that there was a mass of people out there that had they're back.

[mikeSchmuckabee]

201. Might as well, the streets will be most folks' living room soon. n/t

[zorahopkins]

206. You Are Not Alone

You are definitely not the only one who feels this way.

Direct action IS needed. NOW!

[Goldstein1984]

211. It is time

And to see what the government has prepared for us when we finally hit the streets, look no further than the current G20 Summit, the previous G20 Summit, and the Climate Summit in Copenhagen.

Sound cannon.
Preventive arrests.
Police using military style tactics.
Citizens arrested for using Twitter to organize and direct protesters.

The success of the Battle of Seattle will not be allowed to repeat itself.

We waited to long. We just have to ride this plane into the ground; build something better from the debris.

[Raksha]

235. Yes, and the RNC 2008. See my post #233 with the link

to my daughter's blog. She and her fiance were also at the G8 Summit in Pittsburgh last fall and at the Climate Summit in Copenhagen. They came home very discouraged, especially after Copenhagen.

The Battle of Seattle will not be allowed to repeat itself. You are so right about that!

[Cleita]

214. They don't care how much we protest peacefully.

We need something stronger. I suggest camp outs by the homeless and unemployed on the front lawns of the politicians who shot down decent health care, decent finance reform, extended unemployment benefits and other legislation necessary for our survival. It will get their attention. You will get arrested but if it's done nationwide and in a consistent way, it will get the message across to them. Look how effective Camp Casey was in getting the Bush administration all paranoid to the point that Prez *w felt compelled to evict Cindy Sheehan from his SOTUS. It was an illegal camp out in a ditch outside of the Crawford ranch but it made a very strong point and it really upset Bush. We need to do things like this. You have to disrupt their business as usual complacency. It scares them.

[SJC55]

215. No, you are not

I feel the same way as well.

We have nothing left to lose. Why the hell not?

[pitohui]

252. get back out on the streets and do what?

i see lots of people out on the streets with signs saying things like "why lie, i need a beer" and so on

as far as getting on the street to demonstrate, it was proved decisively in the run-up to the iraq war that millions upon millions of people taking to the streets -- as far as i know, the greatest number of turn out for street demonstrations in human history -- makes absolutely no difference

we saw cindy sheehan who at least could get some publicity (which is more than all the millions of we anti-war demonstrations could get) but still... the war continues

"taking to the streets" seems to be a massively ineffective way to get anything done

i would like to accomplish something real, to my pair of eyes "taking to the streets" is a complete waste of time

if you want to be taken seriously and listened to, get rich, bill gates & warren buffet etc. at least have some tiny bit of influence (if not all that much) but it's way more than a million of us taking to the streets has

of course "taking to the streets" is easy and "getting rich and influential" is hard (i sure haven't managed it) so if you're looking for something EASY to do, enjoy "taking it to the streets," but i don't see why doing the same thing that didn't work before is going to work now

[William Z. Foster]

261. you meant "we" didn't you?

You said "if you want to be taken seriously and listened to..." Did you mean to say we?

Suggesting that the way to be taken seriously is to get rich, and then going on to imply that Bill Gates did the hard thing and organizing and demonstrating is the easy thing - the implication is obviously that we are lazy losers when compared to the rich - is one of the most reactionary things I have ever read here.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

262. What about effective ways of using civil disobedience?

Causing enough chaos to inundate government agencies or corporate businesses until they take notice. Whether that translates
to overwhelming their websites, customer service lines or properties I'm not sure. But, one thing they rely on is everything operating
smoothly and according to the rules. This would also give opportunity to those that for one reason or another can't march in a
designated location. I'm not advocating violence of property damage, just mass chaos that consumes their time and time is of value.

[KonaKane]

263. That's more effective than marches, I think.

And remember when I say effective, I mean effective at doing what marches used to - seize media attention.

[William Z. Foster]

264. why "seize media attention?"

Whose approval are we trying to get?

Why don't we seize the media?

[EmeraldCityGrl]

266. If you stop and think about it,

that's a source of a good deal of the heartache in this country. The media would also be a much "easier" target
for chaos.

[KonaKane]

271. Because that's all marches were meant to do in the first place.

Elaborate publicity stunt. Necessary and good ones, but publicity stunts nonetheless.

[datasuspect]

301. you are one of THEM

[Smarmie Doofus]

305. This part is true and quite inarguable:

>>>>as far as getting on the street to demonstrate, it was proved decisively in the run-up to the iraq war that millions upon millions of people taking to the streets -- as far as i know, the greatest number of turn out for street demonstrations in human history -- makes absolutely no difference>>>>

We're nuts if we don't learn from that experience.

But what's this all about:

>>>>if you want to be taken seriously and listened to, get rich, bill gates & warren buffet etc. at least have some tiny bit of influence (if not all that much) but it's way more than a million of us taking to the streets has

of course "taking to the streets" is easy and "getting rich and influential" is hard (i sure haven't managed it) so if you're looking for something EASY to do, enjoy "taking it to the streets," but i don't see why doing the same thing that didn't work before is going to work now>>>>>

???

We can't all be rich nor should we want to be. Nor should our political influence in an alleged democratic republic hinge on the size of our finacnial assets. This is a false choice.

The obvious answer is we ARE already rich in the AGGREGATE. Concerted economic action by organized sectors of the population with goals that are explicit and generally agreed upon ( e.g. pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq; higher corporate and estate taxes; end to school privatization, etc. ) is the responsible middle path between the two prongs of the false disjunction you are putting forth.

[immune]

279. No you aren't the only one who feels this way.

But I'm more in favor of striking where it can't be ignored or pooh poohed away. I definitely like the sound of planned strikes and shut downs.

I didn't, however, see any suggestions to get whatever money we may still have out of the bank. If you're required to have direct deposit, transfer your account to a credit union of community bank and only maintain a small balance in a to keep the account open.

Pay bills with cash or money orders. Eliminate the phrase "direct withdrawal" from your vocabulary for auto insurance, etc. and force them to send a bill each month. Don't pay bills until the due date.

Buy anything and everything used whenever possible (excluding things like food and diapers, of course. :silly:) Speaking of diapers, what an excellent time for a comeback of cloth diapers!!!)

Set up barter clubs and local currencies in our communities so people can keep the money flowing right where we live and out of the hands of multinational bankers thousands of miles away.

[Lost4words]

303. Hell I feel the same, Im 56 and ready!

[GlennWRECK]

336. Sheep flock the streets

Get a position of power and actually make a difference.
That's the way to do it.

Much more effective.