"It Could Never Happen Over Here" - But It Is Happening!

[Cal33]

Dictatorship: "It Could Never Happen Over Here!" - But It is Happening!

It seems to me the Neocons are really doing their best to take over the country. I remember in my
younger days, whenever the topic of dictatorship was discussed, the general concensus was that "It could never happen over here." Germany was essentially a dictatorship that came to an end only after the Kaiser had gone into exile in 1918. The democracy that followed was just a few years old when Hitler began his quest of taking over the country in the early 1930s. But our democracy was too deeply entrenched. After all, it was 200 years old! What happened in Germany in the 1930s could never happen over here! And was this sentiment off the mark! It is happening here today!

I can't help but see that right now, we are where Germany was in the 1930s. Have you noticed that
the Neocons invariably accuse others of having done, are doing, or will be doing what they, themselves,
have done, are doing or intend to do? It's so typical of them. Their Department of Propaganda, Lies and Dirty Tricks have been working overtime. Today they're accusing Obama of being a dictator, a Hitler...etc... And Obama is the one who has been bending over backwards at appeasing the Neocons in order to try to gain their good will and entice them to work with him on a bipartisan basis - all of which is a complete waste of time, of course. They are out to get and totally destroy any president in office who is not one of their own.

And if we think back a bit, if we remember the number of illegal and unconstitutional acts that George W. Bush had tried in order to have the citizens of this country under his control (f.i. illegally wiretapping American citizens without a court order, under the pretext of "national security."), etc ... . He did what he could to ignore, if not destroy, the Constitution. He did openly say that it was nothing more than a sheet of paper. And then the Neocons got into spreading their chant that anyone who disagreed with Bush was "un-American," then "unpatriotic," and finally a "traitor." It's exactly the Neocons, themselves, who are un-American, unpatriotic and traitorous, not other Americans.

During those nerve-racking days, I thought it quite possible that Bush, under one pretext or another, might declare a national state of emergency and put a halt to the elections of November, 2008. I breathed a sigh of relief when that Election Day came and went. My guess is the Neocons probably estimated that it was too early, and their chance of success wasn't good enough. But the next time when they have one of their own for president, they'd be better prepared.

I think the preparations of the Neocons have been going on for decades. Today, another very bad sign is that large numbers of them are buying guns of all types, including machine pistols and submachine guns. Does anyone really need a submachine gun for hunting purposes? It seems they are already well prepared to crush any attempt to fight back, should the Neocons have succeeded in taking the country over. Few Americans are similarly armed. They'd be slaughtered and easily crushed.

The Tea-Partiers are not here merely to make noise. It seems to me their overtly silly actions are what the Neocon leadership has planned for the world to see, but they have other less visible, more important and hidden uses for them. They' could be used to help crush any attempt at revolt on the part of the American people, if and when the take-over should have already taken place. Dumb-cluck Tea-Partiers aren't exactly shy about wearing their side-arms to political meetings, are they?

What amazes me no end is that about half of our nation actually believes the obvious lies of the Neocons. Are so many of our people really so totally ignorant? One explanation is that this could at least partially be the result of the Neocons' long-term planning: They own 90% of the news media, and have been feeding propaganda and lies to the American population - brainwashing them. This has been going on for decades! Neocons do make long-term plans, don't they? And they stick to them. That's the way to succeed, especially when their numbers are small. I think most of the people who vote for them don't really know what's going on. As stated above, they've been brainwashed.

The Neocons have taken over the Republican Party, kicked out the original members and usurped their
power. But they are smart enough to continue using the Republican name, so that millions of people,
who are unaware of the switch-over, continue thinking that they are voting Republican, when in reality the Republican Party no longer even exists. Neocons are smart enough not to use their own name. They
wouldn't want to lose votes. Many Americans are not even aware of this!

Some of the lefties believe that the Neocons are nut-jobs, if not totally mad. Maybe so, but there is a method to their madness. Their GOAL is to destroy our American form of government and replace it with one of their own, and in which the Neocons will be the masters, and the rest of the people their servants. It is already so apparent - ,just look at the incredible difference in earnings of corporate executives and those who work for them. And these masters have no hesitation about robbing their own employees of their life-savings. Let's not forget ENRON, and the annual $20 million bonuses, and the $400 million retirement packages for CEOs, while their lowly-paid employees could be cheated - even out of their measly life-savings. Doesn't this give us a broad hint about the Neocons' future intentions for the rest of us, should they ever succeed in having the nation under their absolute control?

Great credit must be given to the Neocons for their hard work, their consistency and persistence in
sticking to their goals through thick and thin. Of course, it is also part and parcel of their credo to practice deceit and corruption whenever it suits their purposes - which is most of the time. They have come this far because they have worked hard and are continuing to work hard for it. In a sick way, they are reaping what they have sown, and are continuing to sow. They own most of America!

Democrats remain mostly lackadaisical, each one going his own separate way. I think it's fine to go separate ways in many areas of life, but people should at least stand united around the main principles on which their political beliefs are based. Democrats believe in the Constitution of the United States, and in improving the opportunities of every American to have a better life. But many of them are wishy-washy in carrying out the functions necessary in attaining these goals. Neocons, on the other hand, are out to create advantages and privileges for themselves only, and at the expense of the rest of the nation. And Boy! Do they work hard at it! An example of the Democrats' non-caring attitude: After ten years most states are still using Republican-made electronic voting machines that leave no paper trails. The Neocons, of course, are rubbing their hands in glee over this. If this state of affairs keeps up, in the long run, Who do you think is going to win - the Democrats or the Neocons?

I'd be very happy to be completely wrong about all of the above. But I don't believe I am wrong.

There are many among us who are disappointed in Obama - for not being tough enough, for being too
obsessed with trying to get the Neocons to work with him on a bi-partisanship basis, when it's so obvious that the Neocons are by nature incapable of it (a high percentage of the Neocon leadership is made up of sociopaths, I think Obama needs to consult with mental health professionals in order to understand what sociopathy is really about. He doesn't seem to understand that sociopaths are incapable of having compassion for fellow human beings in pain or dire need, that appealing to their sense of decency, fairness or honor means nothing to them. The same thing with shame and dishonor. Their consciences are defective. They have no such feelings. They respond only to profit and the fear of punishment - nothing else. That's why they themselves so often use bribery and intimidation as methods to get what they want), I, too, fault Obama for having too many members in his cabinet who are left-overs from the Bush Administration, and too many right-wing Democrats who are his advisors, There are any number of other reasons.

I also feel the Democratic leadership is totally wrong for not carrying out impeachment proceedings against Bush/Cheney & Co., which they so richly deserve. The main reason Speaker Nancy Pelosi gave for keeping impeachment off the table when she first came into office was that it was a time-consuming process which would slow down work in Congress. Well, well, well ! Look at the blockages and filibustering done by the Neocon minority today! Their purpose is to bring the work in Congress to a halt, to make things look bad for the Democrats. And very likely in the future they will criticize the present Democratic Congress as a "do nothing" Congress, too! That's how Neocons operate. Sheer hypocrisy! If impeachment had taken place, they would have been behaving more carefully - for a while, at least. As stated above, they only respond to profit and the fear of punishment. Not that they are really to blame. Their morality development having been arrested at the primitive level of that of the small child, they can't help being the way they are. But the fact remains that they cannot hold any high positions of responsibility without causing a great deal of harm and damage - in either the public or the private sector. Voting for one of them would be like voting for an Al Capone - a better educated and more sophisticated Al Capone, perhaps, but he'd still be an Al Capone.

I still have small hopes that Obama might have some plan up his sleeve that will outsmart the Neocons in the long run. This is probably wishful thinking on my part, of course. Back in 2008, people were estimating that it would take whoever the next president would be several years just to undo the damage caused by Bush. Well, Obama is that president at it right now. And, to make matters worse for him, the Neocons are putting up total resistance against every single thing he is trying to accomplish. And Obama is one of the hardest-working and dedicated presidents I have ever seen.

The left seems to be in disarray, and a significant part of this has been caused and maintained by the right-wingers. They may be noisy, clumsy and crass in their methods, but their non-stop persistence is extremely effective! Some lefties are thinking of not voting at all, come November, or even voting for the "Republicans," out of sheer anger and frustration at the Democratic leadership. I can understand these feelings. I am pretty angry at them myself. But take a look at the broader picture: Doing so would only be helping to tie the knot in the noose that would be used by the Neocons to hang us all ! The Neocons would have won!. Their crass and clumsy but persistent efforts would have paid off ! And decisions based on anger seldom resolve problems, they often only create bigger ones. If the reader should know of anyone toying with this idea, please try to convince him/her otherwise.

[babylonsister]

1. Link, or did you write this? Thanks. nt

[Cal33]

6. Yes, I wrote this

[Voltaire]

2. I agree with much that you have said here

People need to wise up. Neocons and Teabaggers and Rush, and Beck are not to be ridiculed or laughed at, they are to be defended against. And time is long past a-wasting. I don't know why Democratic politicians deal with Republican sick-ass politicians and I don't know why the media covers known psychopathic liars in the name of fairness. But this country is on the brink of extinction as we know it. And all we do is argue.

[Cal33]

14. Yes, people need to wise up, but few of them are going to.,

The Neocons got them with their propaganda and lies decades ago. Many people
don't like to change their minds, even when presented with evidence. It's
less strenuous on them to remain as they are. :o)

[Cal33]

16. I think the Democratic politicians deal with their Republican

counterparts 1) because they have to, it's a part of their job. (2) And don't forget,
there are some sick-asses among the Democratic politicians, too, although very likely
fewer in number.

This country is in deep, deep trouble. Some of the sick-asses probably don't
even see it. And if they did, it probably doesn't bother them. That is a
part of the sickness of sociopaths - they have no compassion for the problems
of others. I don't know what kind of mental activity is going on in their brains,
when they do not recognize that if our country should become extinct, they'd
probably also become extinct along with the rest. Probably they, themselves,
are not even aware of this.

[Cal33]

85. "I don't know why the media covers known psychopathic liars

in the name of fairness."

I think that's because 90% of the media is owned by them anyway. That's how
they are able to brainwash such large numbers of the people.

[snot]

3. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck . . .

[Cal33]

17. Then it is a duck, or at least, a dictatorship in the making.

[Glorfindel]

4. Very well done! Thanks for posting this.

I'm sending it to everyone I know who has the capacity to hear and accept the truth. :hi:

[Cal33]

5. Many thanks. I wish more would do the same.

[JHB]

7. Have you noticed that the Neocons invariably accuse others of (what they do)"...

Noticed?

It's been a chestnut for longer than I can remember that the surest sign of what the right wing is up to is whatever they're accusing the Democrats of doing.

Edited to add: can't read the whole thing right at this time. Bookmarking for later.

[FormerDittoHead]

15. It's cousin to them naming every law they pass the opposite of its true purpose.

Do I need to give examples?

Yes, everything they do is a lie.

[Cal33]

47. Of course, lying and deceit to get what they want is the normal

thing fot sick people like them to do. They are sociopaths. This is what sociopaths do.
These are not normal people.

[Cal33]

79. They are relying on the hope that most Americans

wouldn't know the difference, since the 90% of the news media that the Neocons own
has seen to it that Americans have been brainwshed by their deceitful propaganda.
And they have been quite successful.

[Cal33]

86. Hope you've read the whole thing by now? :o) nt

[90-percent]

8. Frank Zappa

From the Mothers of Invention first album "Freak Out"

In light of the Citizen's United Supreme Court Ruling of last January, we should all really be saying;

IT IS HAPPENING HERE

Because we are in the midst of a corporate totalitarian fascist take over of this country!

-90% Jimmy


It can't happen here
It can't happen here
I'm telling you, my dear
That it can't happen here
Because I been checkin' it out, baby
I checked it out a couple a times, hmmmmmmmm

And I'm telling you
It can't happen here
Oh darling, it's important that you believe me
(bop bop bop bop)
That it can't happen here

Who could imagine that they would freak out somewhere in kansas...
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas tototototodo
Kansas kansas
Who could imagine that they would freak out in minnesota...
Mimimimimimimi minnesota, minnesota, minnesota
Who could imagine...

Who could imagine
That they would freak out in washington, d.c.
D.c. d.c. d.c. d.c. d.c.
It can't happen here
Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba
It can't happen here
It can't happen here
Everybody's safe and it can't happen here
No freaks for us
It can't happen here
Everybody's clean and it can't happen here
No, no, it won't happen here
I'm telling you it can't
It won't happen here
(bop bop didi bop didi bop bop bop)
Plastic folks, you know
It won't happen here
You're safe, mama
You're safe, baby
You just cook a tv dinner
And you make it
(bop bop bop)
No no no no
Oh, we're gonna get a tv dinner and cook it up
Go get a tv dinner and cook it up
Cook it up
Oh, and it won't happen here
(no no no no no no no no no no no
Man you guys are really safe
Everything's cool).
Who could imagine
Who could imagine
That they would freak out in the suburbs
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool
I remember (tu-tu)
I remember (tu-tu)
They had a swimming pool.

And they thought it couldn't happen here
(duh duh duh duh duh)
They knew it couldn't happen here
They were so sure it couldn't happen here
But...

Suzie...
Yes yes yes--i've always felt that
Yes I agree man, it really makes it...yeah...
It's a real thing, man
And it really makes it
(makes it)

Suzie, you just got to town,
And we've been, we've been very interested
In your development,
Since you first took the shots.
Forget it!
Hmmmmmmmmm
(it can't happen here)
(can't happen here)
(can't happen here)

[Cal33]

106. I just wonder how the present political situation in our country

will turn out. We'll know a little more after the elections in November.
By November, 2012, things will be more definite. These are exciting, and
dangerous times!

[niyad]

9. k and r--sending it to everyone I know. I was called paranoid for years--because I have been

worried since the day reagan was put in office that these bastards would declare martial law. I figure our country officially ended on 12/12/2000, when 5 repuke-appointed members of the supreme court abrogated the constitution and named bush president. I breathed a small sigh of temporary relief, not on election night 2008, but on jan. 20 2009 (there was always the nagging thought that they would somehow prevent the inauguration)

Like a poster here, I don't find beck, rush, the tea partiers, etc., laughable, or a joke. I take them very seriously. we seem to be regressing to some sort of looking-glass world where these insane people are treated as though they are sane.

we are in deep, deep trouble, and the sheeples are too blind to see it.

[Cal33]

37. I have written a message in this forum a year ago, titled

"National Disease: Sociopaths in high place." You may be interested in
reading it. I did some explaining about sociopathy, and how to recognize
it. The message is rather long. It is also rather appropriate for this
time of year, since Election Day is only 4 months away.

By the way, what does "K & R" mean. Also "n/t"?

[Tsiyu]

10. Sometimes its intructive to be a non donor

Guess whose face graced your OP in the ad?

Cheney's wife, praising Israel! And asking for my help to stand with them!

[Cal33]

40. I didn't know it was Cheney's wife. When I looked again, the

ad was gone. :o)

[Cal33]

80. I guess you're right. My phone keeps ringing nowadays. nt

[demodonkey]

11. I'm glad you mentioned the voting machines.... elections are at the core of everything.

Many of these ills would never have happened were it not for the Supreme-court deciding the 2000 election against the majority of the American people, and 2004 was so screwy it defied imagination.

But then Obama managed to win, and too many on the left have forgotten the problems with our elections that came before. People think the problem with our elections somehow magically went away. THEY DID NOT. Or some think that we have to have wait for the 'perfect' solution to this, or else do nothing.

In the meantime, while we do nothing, new and even more insecure and fraud-prone ways of voting are being devised and marketed. Internet Voting is paperless electronic voting machines on steroids.

If you make only one ONE contribution this year, make it to an organization that is fighting for better elections. Especially one of the small state and locally based groups that are actually in their state and county trenches, still hanging on and fighting to protect every vote.

Please pay attention.

Please help.

[Cal33]

51. I think you have a good idea.

[Cal33]

62. I've been reminding the Dems. on the Internet political forums

since 2002 about the Republican-made electronic voting machines. Not much good seems
to have come of it, but I'll keep on reminding them. Persistences is one thing I've
learned from the Neocons. :o)

[90-percent]

12. More Zappa

I won't cut and paste them here, but "I'm the Slime (from your video)" from the 1976 album "Overnight Sensation" put's Zappa's views in a nutshell.

Zpaa said in the lates 60's when asked about a new revolution in America run by young people, that it wouldn't work and why not take advantage of some of the things that have been fucking up America in the first place - namely the media and especially television. The conservative movement starting perhaps in the late 70's, made a very concerted effort to control the television news media and they have 30-35 years of that take over.

THEY TOOK FRANK'S ADVICE!

There is one man in particular that orchestrated this media take over movement to advance "conservative" ideals. He has been on Bill Moyers in the last few years, but I can't remember his name?

Lastly, very few in America know or care that it has been legally established in a Florida Court Case THAT IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL TO KNOWINGLY LIE IN A NEWS BROADCAST. I got through to Thom Hartmann two weeks ago and he knew all about it. Even had the news people that lost their case on his show a few years ago.

-90% Jimmy

[tom_paine]

13. That was extremely well said

[Cal33]

52. Many thanks. Can you think of ways of persuading more

people to vote Democratic in November, or at least, not vote for the Neocons?

[AikidoSoul]

18. We are in great danger.

The trouble with the Democrats is that they don't use strategic planning tools to set long and short term goals, and then stick to them with ferocity. The lack of energy is a huge problem.

The Dems also don't have much of a public relations strategy either. Example: I receive an average of 9 emails a week from right wingers depicting the wrongs of the left in a humorous way. Much of the posts are lies of course, but they are certainly colorful, they capture attention, and are designed to make people laugh.

I have NEVER received even one email from the left that is colorful, say with cartoons and/or drawings, or poems... limericks, etc. --- poking fun at the right. Not one!

The Dems some off as so cerebral and serious.

Yes, the voting machines. God.... I feel sick.

Bush and Cheney along with their sordid pals have done more to ruin this country than anyone in history. We now have a shadow government made up of criminals who think nothing of ruining the future of all that is beautiful on the entire planet.

So what do we do next?

K & R, by the way. Very good post.

[Cal33]

83. Yes the Dems. are interested in doing their own thing and

be independent. These are good qualaities. But in some areas, Dems. should also be
united in carrying out their important goals, especially where the goals are poorly
carried out individually, but would become more relevant when they are united as a group.
It is an advantage to be strong in both areas. They should know which is which, and
act accordingly.

[Catherina]

19. Rec'd. Thank you Cal n/t

[Cal33]

60. Thank you, Catherina

[SlipperySlope]

20. machine pistols and submachine guns?

> Today, another very bad sign is that large numbers of them are buying guns of all types, including machine pistols and submachine guns.

Excellent essay, but you do know that no new machine guns have been transferable to civilians since 1986, don't you?

The most striking thing about what you wrote was that the Republican party has in effect gone through a silent coup d'état. Perhaps that accounts for some of the general malaise; the voter knows things are wrong but knows not how.

[Cal33]

73. You know, another correspondent was asking the same

question. This made me less sure of myself. So I googled "Can machine pistols
be legally bought in the USA?"

It showed tons of articles. But Articles 4 and 7 of Page 1 alone are sufficient.

[benEzra]

88. You stopped reading too soon. They are as tightly controlled as bombs and howitzers

and new production for the very small collector/enthusiast market was banned completely in 1986, via the Hughes Amendment to the McClure-Volkmer Act.

The number of new machine pistols, submachineguns, actual assault rifles, etc. that have been manufactured or imported for the non-LEO civilian market since May 19, 1986 is ZERO. None. Zilch. Nada. Post-'86 production is strictly limited to police/military/government and their suppliers only, with no exceptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/

[DemReadingDU]

21. It Is Happening

Many people are just too complacent nowadays. Whether it is watching mindless TV, getting the latest techie gadget, believing the economy has recovered, they fail to look at the bigger picture in the world.

[Cal33]

87. And the neocons don't see it either. They are DRIVEN by their

greed for profit and power, and they can't stop. They can't see an inch further.

[Dystopian]

22. KandR.

Excellent piece.
Thank you.


peace~

[Cal33]

93. Thank you for your kind thoughts, and the K&R.

[DeSwiss]

23. K&R

It's been happening here for quite some time.

[Cal33]

95. Yes, is has been . And thanks for your K&R.

[azygous]

24. You're just touching on the truth of the matter

By labeling the enemy as "the Neocons", you're making the same error as right-wingers who label the enemy as "the Liberals".

The neocons, if anything, are merely the foot soldiers of the corptocracy, which encompasses both major parties. The goal is indeed a dictatorship, and it is here already under Obama. If you haven't noticed, he has claimed the power to kill any American for any reason anywhere in the world. He has been governing, not on behalf of the people, but on behalf of the corporations. Right now, talks are taking place behind closed doors regarding the corporate takeover of the internet.

It's not easy to see that your own party is in the enemy camp. There's no bigger betrayal than by those you thought you could trust.

[pmorlan1]

26. @24 Thank you, azygous

Sadly, the author of this post only got one part of it right.

"What amazes me no end is that about half of our nation actually believes the obvious lies of the Neocons".

As azygous pointed out, we also have gullible people on the other side who believe the obvious lies coming from their side of the political spectrum. We have both political parties deliberately trying to divide citizens in order to conquer. The right wing are encouraged to blame the left and the left is encouraged to blame the right and in the meantime both corporate controlled political parties reap the benefits. Take off your Party hat long enough to see reality. I fully agree with azygous..."it's not easy to see that your own party is in the enemy camp. There's no bigger betrayal than by those you thought you could trust". If you love your Party help save it.

[Jakes Progress]

27. Well thought.

I, too, use the neocons as the generic term for the elites who are taking over our country, beginning with both parties. They are, of course, only one arm of the movement. They are useful to the corporatists because they help us focus our anger and discontent in one direction, while they work elsewhere. This is the problem I have with our rage against the republicans. The republican party today has nothing to do with the republicans I used to debate in college. They party has been wholly captured. Our party is partially taken over and leaning more every day. The few hold outs will be purged in the next election or so, while the corporatist food soldiers in the party get heavy backing and support from the party leadership.

[Cal33]

29. Can you think of anyone who, as president, can govern our

country without having do deal with, or totally ignoring, the Corporatocracy
in our nation? The last one who came close to doing so was JFK. We all
know what happened to him. As things are, all presidents have to give in
to them to some degree. Yes, Corporate America is very powerful, indeed.

I am still willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt as of now. In
addition to his job as president, he also has to balance, weigh, calculate
the percentages of how far he can go with Corporate America. All presidents
of the past half century had to - if they wanted to survive assassination.
With the Neocons, of course, it's a different story. They are overtly a part
of Corporate America.

My guess is our nation is close to being, but has not yet been completely,
overtaken by Corporate America. They want to be more certain of success before
they strike. And yes, the Neocons are their foot-soldiers.

Can you imagine yourself being in Obama's place? What an incredibly difficult
situation to be in! He wanted the job, of course. But I doubt that even he
could have foreseen all the difficulties he would have to face.

The other possibility is as you said - he was one of them from the beginning.

We are living in interesting, but god-awful dangerous times!!

[Odin2005]

56. The cheerleaders will demand your banning soon.

[Cal33]

57. I agree that there also are sociopaths in the Democratic

or any other Party. But they are fewer in number, and perhaps also less vicious.
Human beings are not perfect, and never will be. It is a matter of degree.
And oftentimes we have to choose the lesser of evils, don't we? If we didn't,
we'd have very few elected officials, indeed.

Would you agree if I said that our democratic form of government would last longer
under an Obama than with a Bush? This might not seem like much, but I think the longer
a democratic system is in effect, the better are the chances that it could improve itself.

I don't think Obama would be re-elected if he turns out to be a right-winger.

About the world "Neocon." I deliberately use it to distinguish these people
from real "Republicans." As I wrote in my post, Neocons are those who usurped the power
of the Republican leadership and evicted them from their own party. However, Neocons
are smart enough to keep on using the Republican name, so that old-time Republican
members would still vote for them. Let's face it, too many people simply vote for the
party their family had always voted for. There are an awful lot of people who have no
interest in politics whatsoever. They vote simply to fulfill what they think is their
civic duty.

As for the word "sociopath" that I use, it would take too long to explain. Maybe you
could google "Bush and sociopathy." There are over 100,000 articles, some of them
written by mental health professionals. In the first page alone there is an article on
an interview with the professsor of psychiatry of George Washington University Medical
School, who had written a book titled "Bush On The Couch."

It's a lively interview. You might find it interesting.

[Cal33]

96. One little difference: I am calling Neocons Neocons, because

they are not Republicans. Neocons joined the Republican Party, then destroyed it
from within. The Republican Party no longer exists today as such. And millions
of old-time Republicans are not even aware of this - thanks to the monstrous
propaganda machine that the 90 percent of the news media they own are capable
of carrying out.

Neocons are smart enough to keep the Republican name, and the unaware millions of
old-time Republicans continue to vote "Republican."

This is a big reason Neocons avoid using their own name. They'd lose millions
of votes.

As I've written elsewhere, I am a liberal, and I don't mind being called a liberal.
It was the Neocons who tried to make "Liberal" into a dirty name. I don't buy it.
I continue to consider myself a liberal.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

25. Happening? It's Already Happened

It's become increasingly clear over the past 10 years.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

28. There was a pivotal moment.

When the Dems headed by Nancy Pelosi refused to open investigations on the MANY criminal practices and acts of the Bush administration (Plame, Torture, Wiretapping and Surveilling Americans, Attorneygate, selling a war on false pretenses, unitary executive directives and policies, Katrina criminal negligence, crony corruption, election fraud, and other crimes far too numerous to mention)they sold us all out permanently and helped dismantle the dream that was once our country.

And ultimately, what was the excuse they provided? That it was all just so . . . messy.

My disgust and revulsion at their cowardice for choosing political expedience over the Rule of Law and our Constitution knows no bounds and I will never forget.

The historians (of other countries, since the victors will write the history here) will acknowledge that this was really when the United States and its laws and rules of governance disappeared.

[Cal33]

31. Yes. One of the first things Pelosi did in January 2007 was

to declare impeachment "off the table." I wonder if there is a
statute of limitations for impeachment. Do you know?

[Pedalpower]

45. pragmatism

They chose to NOT prosecute because the media attention it would have garnered would have prevented them from building public support for any other legislation. They chose to be politicians, rather than public servants.

I hate that they chose this direction, but without public support (demand), there's no way that politicians, both Repubelickin' and Democrat who are wholely owned by corporations and special interests, would vote for anything that benefits individual citizens. THEY SERVE THE BIG-MONEY DONORS UNLESS YOU FORCE THEM TO VOTE FOR A BILL THAT BENEFITS YOU.

Obama is a wuss who thinks that the best way to dilute Neoconservatism is with lots of center-right policies. Maybe one day he'll understand.

Our system is corrupt. It's garbage. I have little-to-no hope that it will ever again serve the people.

Enjoy our slide, everyone.

[Cal33]

108. Much of what you say I agree with. Bad as it is, voting for

Democrats would delay dictatorship for some time. And time is what we need
to work for improvement in the Democratic Party itself. How come the
Democratic Congress, even with majorities in both house, still seems
to be so afraid of the Neocon minority?

The Neocons still treat the Democrats like dirt! Liberals and Progressives
see this, witnessed the behavior of Pelosi and Reid for more than 3 years,
and have become thoroughly disgusted.

[havocmom]

104. about that point was when my daughter said she understood rise of nazi German history better

She used to wonder 'how did that happen?' Watching how fast Dem leadership rolled over, she said 'Oh, that's how' And we cried

[Cal33]

110. It seems to me that too many of the incumbents are hopeless -

including Pelosi and Reid. Maybe we should have newcomers leading both the House and
the Senate. They couldn't do worse, and probably they would do much better. How about
Grayson for House Speaker, and Franken for Majority Leader of the Senate?

And if Obama decides not to run in 2012, Kucinich would definitely be my choice. From
Kucinich we can expect some real action that will save this nation from going down the
drain !!!

Keep in mind though that the Neocons will continue with their aggresive and dirty tricks,
as they have with Clinton and Obama. I don't think Kucinich would bend over backwards
as much as Obama has. He knows that it wouldn't help things at all, and he wouldn't waste
his time at it.

[malaise]

30. This is an excellent post

The truth is that until and unless DOJ follows both the constitution and the law and lock up the war criminals and treasonous bastards, they will continue to seize power.

Rec

[Cal33]

35. Thanks. Most of the power and influence lie in the hands of

Corporate America and the Military/Industrial Complex. Is it possible to
try, and if found guilty, lock up all of them? I think not. Maybe
Obama is trying to find some way to separate them from their power,
without being assassinated in the process? If so, he has to do it
in a very careful way. He sure has a huge balancing act to do!

[placton]

32. there is a Sinclair Lewis book from the 1930's

called IT CANT HAPPEN HERE - about how fascism could take over america - and let's face it, the current Administration is helping it to come rather nicely.

[KonaKane]

49. That was required reading in one of my college courses.

I had no idea then that it would be so prophetic. I considered it interesting political fiction 27 years ago.

[Cal33]

114. I'm still willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt.. He has

not only an enormously difficult job, but also many different people and groups to
satisfy. He is not "the most powerful man in the world." This is an impressive-
sounding, but gross exaggeration of the press.

Have you noticed Obama's gray hairs that weren't there two years ago?

[Flubadubya]

33. In 1932 Huey P. Long said...

"Fascism will come to America, but likely under another name, perhaps anti-fascism."

Think no further than Glen Beck, et. al. :(

[Greyhound]

36. And he was talking about Roosevelt's "economic royalists".

You know, the people that put people into office.

[LWolf]

34. What about the neolibs? nt

[PufPuf23]

38. Neocons and Neo-Liberals are the Bad Cop / Good Cop

of American fascism.

The USA has turned into a monied aristocracy that maintains control domestically by militarized police/prison complex and internationally a corporate/military empire.

From where I sit, our Democratic Republic has ceased to exist. Some of us may be comfortable but that is expendable.

Being a gloomy gus, I don't expect a major change until a combination of war and environmental collapse reduces the population and hell comes to the planet while the monied international aristocrats live behind walls.

A poster up thread said that Pelosi taking impeachment off the table was a turning point and I agree.

The USA is a rogue nation and has an unfair justice system. POTUS Obama's election has not changed the course of our trajectory an iota.

The voting machines suck but we don't really get a good choice in candidates to vote anyway. Sadly, the sickness is deep into even most local politics.

The American ideal I believed in in my youth and my father believed and fought for in WWII Europe is gone except for window dressing.

[Cal33]

39. I agree with you to a large extent, but not all the way. Here

is something that might give you a lift: Just read in this same forum the message titled:
"Rachel Maddow: Obama Got a lot Done." Obama really did get a lot done, and in a year-and-
a-half only.

[SJC55]

41. You are completely correct

We are a dying Empire now.

[Overseas]

42. K&R! //nt

[Cal33]

44. I' m sorry, but could you tell me what "K&R" and also"n/t"

stand for? Thanks.

[CrispyQ]

54. K&R = kick & recommended

When someone responds to your post, it kicks it to the top of the forum where it's posted.

n/t or nt = no text - in other words, the subject line is the entire message.

[Cal33]

72. Many thanks for the info. nt

[Cal33]

91. Many thanks. nt

[OwnedByFerrets]

43. K but Not R...I was too late to do that

[Cal33]

100. Thanks a lot, any way. nt

[WingDinger]

46. They accuse us of it, to then say, they did it first. Also, it is more likely they will institute

military dictatorship. They already think military should run all aspects of war, and pres should be rubber stamp. They feel the only valid tasks for gov are foreign invasion, and protecting, warring our borders. We will allow it, as we bought the Obama promised miracles, and now, to punish dems, we wont vote. The neocons lie and say they expected transparency, and bipartisanship, as if they would have liked him. All lies, and we are spoonfed it, and many of us are so naive we buy it for our own selves. Concern trolls suckered us.

[Cal33]

61. Yes. Such behavior is characteristic of sick sociopaths.

[lunasun]

48. don't forget the papers some of us need now too. soon everyone/ everywhere

Where are your papers???
Immer ist der himmel ber alles
Fur euer himmel

[Dawson Leery]

50. The tea parties will proudly serve as oppressors.

[KonaKane]

53. They would come out in force to vote for Buzz Windrip.

Anybody who has read Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here" will know who that is.

[Cal33]

82. I have read Sinclair Lewis, but not his "It can't happen here."

Would you enlighten me, please?

[Odin2005]

55. They don't need overt repression anymore, they have the MSM do keep people in line.

[Cal33]

59. Some of the sociopaths are also sadists. They' d go out of

their way to torment and repress people because it gives them a sense of power.
They enjoy repressing people. Bush and Cheney are examples. Even though
they control 90% of the MSM, they still enjoy their "personal touch" of
advocating torture, which is both against the UN and USA laws. They don't
think the way the average person does.

[Nikki Stone1]

58. It's not about TeaPartiers; it's about the Unitary Executive

and the dwarfing of Congress by the Executive Branch. It's systemic, not personal nor related to any particular party.

[Freedom is not free]

66. Agreed

It's funny that I disagree with so many things written here,
but I couldn't agree more that the legislative branch has been
willingly giving away their power to the executive branch. 
Politics and parties are leading them directly to irrelevance.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. The founders set up checks and balances for a reason

Many seem to have forgotten that.

[Cal33]

81. It's more than mere forgetting with the neocons. They

deliberately and oftentimes openly flaunted their total disregard for it.
Bush did publicly state that the Constitution was nothing more than a sheet of paper.

[A Physicist]

63. The Paranoid Style in American Politics

This Op brings to mind this famous essay. Summary here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American_Politics

From the Wikipedia article:

The paranoid style as a recurring theme in American political history
Hofstadter begins by noting that:

“American politics has often been an arena for angry minds. In recent years we have seen angry minds at work mainly among extreme right-wingers, who have now demonstrated in the Goldwater movement how much political leverage can be got out of the animosities and passions of a small minority. But behind this I believe there is a style of mind that is far from new and that is not necessarily right-wing. I call it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind.”

Hofstadter goes on to detail historical paranoia directed against Illuminism, Freemasonry, and the Jesuits, and follows this strain in American politics through what he considered its modern incarnations in McCarthyism and the activities of the John Birch Society.

The paranoid style defined
Hofstadter describes the unifying characteristics of the paranoid politician thus:

“The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms — he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization... he does not see social conflict as something to be mediated and compromised, in the manner of the working politician. Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil, what is necessary is not compromise but the will to fight things out to a finish. Since the enemy is thought of as being totally evil and totally unappeasable, he must be totally eliminated — if not from the world, at least from the theatre of operations to which the paranoid directs his attention. This demand for total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens the paranoid’s sense of frustration. Even partial success leaves him with the same feeling of powerlessness with which he began, and this in turn only strengthens his awareness of the vast and terrifying quality of the enemy he opposes.”


Full essay here:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/the_paranoid_style.html

[Cal33]

67. It is true that there is some paranoia in everyone. Most

people do become temporarily paranoid, if the provocation is strong enough.
But if we're talking about large groups of people, such as members of
political parties, then we also should take into consideration the principles
to which the parties subscribe - not just from their talk, but mainly from
their actions.

Democrats stand for following the Constitution of the U.S. They do try to
improve the opportunities for all Americans to achieve a better life.

Neocons' actions prove that they are only interested in making profits for
themselves - by hook and by crook, if necessary, and at the expense of the rest
of the country. Bush openly stated that the Constitution was merely a sheet of
paper. Corporate executives (the vast majority of whom are Neocons) are known
not only for giving themselves enormous salaries, but some of them have even
robbed their employees of their life-savings. It din't bother their consciences
in the least.

We can and should learn from history:

At the turn of the 20 Century, it was said that J. P. Morgan made as much
as 1,000,000 times of what the average American did. I don't know how accurate
this is, but, at any rate, the difference was incredibly high.

Democrat F. D. Roosevelt came along and began the process of trying to make sure
that the average American would not face starvation in old age. The Republicans
fought him tooth and nail.

Since then the party in power changed hands back and forth a few times. Each time
the Republicans were in power, the average Americans (who make up the vast majority
of the people) suffered. Each time the Democrats came to power, improvements were
made - not only in the financial welfare of the people, but also in their personal
lives. Civil rights, fought for by the Democrats, improved the human dignity of all
Americans, including that of racial minorities.

Today, the Neocons have taken over the Republican Party. They worked from the
inside and were successful in overthrowing and usurping the power of the
Republicans. (I suppose they found their former leaders too soft and too slow
in seizing more of the wealth of the nation).

There were exceptions, of course. It was Republican Eisenhower who warned the
nation to "Beware of the Military/Industrial Complex." His warning was
accurate and appropriate. This state is what we are in today.

The tactics of the present-day Neocons (I deliberately don't call them Republicans,
because the Republican Party no longer exists) are so similar to those of the
Hitler and his followers in the Germany of the early 1930s: Lying propaganda,
the methods they used in their "Putsch" for power....etc....

One correspondent was reminding me that using the work "Neocons" was equivalent
to their using the word "liberal." The difference is, I am a liberal, and I don't
mind it at all being called a liberal. The Neocons do mind being called Neocons.

You say there is too much anger in American politics. Yes, I agree there is.
I also see that there are too many sociopaths holding positions of power in this
country - in business corporations, as well as in the public center. And this
is a main cause of what is wrong with our nation, as well as a cause for much
anger.

The two deepest drives in the personalities of sociopaths are profits and
power over others. In the choice of careers, people tend to seek those
positions where what they want most can be best found: 1. Money in business, and
2. power in politics. And these places are exactly where you can expect to find the largest
number of sociopaths.

Between 2 and 4 percent of the general population is made up of people with
sociopathic personalities. You can bet your bottom dollar that the number of
sociopaths is much higher than 4% among business executives and politicians.

[Raksha]

64. Too late to recommend, but kicking anyway.

It's good to know that so many people are waking up--at least on DU and hopefully elsewhere. I can only hope and pray that we aren't waking up too late.

[Cal33]

68. Yea, People! Wake up now, before it's too late!

[Initech]

65. My favorite thing is the neocons blame "big government" on us.

In actuality it's the opposite - THEY want big government using the idea of national security as a safety net.

[Cal33]

78. I agree with you totally. It is part of their lying propaganda

machine: they accuse the Democrats exactly of what the Neocons, themselves, have done,
are doing, or will be doing.

[metalbot]

69. I can buy machine pistols and submachine guns now?

Nonsense. New registration of automatic weapons ended in 1986 (signed into law by Reagan).

You cannot buy a machine pistol or a submachine gun, other than by buying a currently registered one, of which there is a limited pool (and they are thus very expensive). It's true that you can buy guns that LOOK like machine pistols or LOOK like submachine guns, but they function in exactly the same way as a standard hunting rifle: you pull the trigger, and a bullet comes out.

"Does anyone really need a submachine gun for hunting purposes?"

The second amendment has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hunting. It would be 100% constitutional to ban hunting.

Was there a surge in weapons purposes when Obama was elected? Yes. Why? Because he campaigned on the fact that he would make scary looking guns illegal. For a full year, the white house website had "Obama supports the renewal of the scary looking gun ban". When the last scary looking gun ban was passed, the value of scary looking guns shot through the roof because existing scary looking guns were grandfathered in by the law. That's a much more plausible explanation for the surge in scary looking weapon purchases than anything nefarious.

[Cal33]

71. You almost convinced me, so I googled

"Can machine pistols be legally bought in the USA?" There are some
80,000 articles. But #4 and #7 of page 1 alone will suffice. Just
take a look.

[benEzra]

89. That is limited to extremely rare and expensive pre-1986 collectibles only.

and they're as tightly controlled as 500lb bombs, shoulder-fired missiles, howitzers, and fully operational tanks. Simple possession without having first obtained a BATFE Form 4 is a 10-year Federal felony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/

They are so rare that even with the very tight restrictions and red tape, the going rate for a civilian-transferable pre-1986 AK-47 or M16 is $15,000+ (and I have seen rare M16A2's on auction for $75,000).

As I pointed out upthread, the number of new machine pistols, submachineguns, actual assault rifles, etc. that have been manufactured or imported for the non-LEO civilian market since 1986 is ZERO. None. Zilch. Zip. Nada. Post-'86 production is strictly limited to police/military/government and their suppliers only, with no exceptions.

[Sebastian Doyle]

70. The Democratic party is sadly not immune from neocon influence

Joe Lieberman still pretends to be a Democrat. Will Marshall is a founder of the DLC and a PNAC signator. Richard Holbrooke is also a PNAC signator, and he's in the goddamn state department. What's up with that shit?

Even otherwise legitimate Democrats like Alan Grayson and Anthony Weiner have bought into the bullshit mythology that the neocons and their Likud partners have circulated. And that is truly troubling.

[Cal33]

74. It's true. There are sociopaths and also neocon moles in

every political party as well as every profession. But I think they are
fewer in number elsewhere. The Neocon Party seems to have the largest
number of them, and also the more vicious ones. Yes, there is corruption
everywhere. It's only a matter of degree. That's the way it is. Can
this morbid situation by cleaned up - at least in part?

In dealing with human beings, there is no such thing at 100% or 0% - black
or white. It's always dealing with different shades of gray.

[Lagomorph]

76. Show me an advertisment for a new submachinegun or

machine pistol that can be purchased by anyone other than police, the military or licensed FFL dealers (the guys who sell them to the police).

America has never been a place where whatever you desire just shows up. Even after all the obstacles are removed, you still have to walk the walk. If there is something worth having, somebody is always trying to get it. You still have to get there firstest with the mostest.

What ever happens to America will be the result of the efforts the millions of Americans who are doing the work to make it happen. Sometimes the results are pretty damn stupid, but that's what shows up.

[Cal33]

77. Other correspondents have asked the same question. So

I googled "Can machine pistols be legally bought in the USA?" and found a ton of articles.
But Art. #4 and #7 on page 1 will be quite sufficient.

[Lagomorph]

84. There is still a finite..

..and shrinking supply of fully automatic weapons on the market that can be transferred. There haven't been any new ones made, that can be purchased by private citizens, since 1968. Before then, it was perfectly legal to buy one with the proper paperwork.

The rare, fully automatic weapons that are available will cost tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars, in most cases. They are nearly always in the hands of collectors, locked away.

There is no open market for fully automatic weapons. They are not something that you would find in the hands of Neocons wandering the streets on bloody rampages that were promised once the assault weapons ban was lifted.

Where ever the Mexican drug cartels are getting their fully automatic AK and M-16's, it's not in American gun shows or stores.

[benEzra]

90. I believe the OP is confusing civilian non-automatic "assault weapons" with machineguns/subguns.

From the OP:

Today, another very bad sign is that large numbers of them are buying guns of all types, including machine pistols and submachine guns. Does anyone really need a submachine gun for hunting purposes?

I believe the OP is confusing civilian non-automatic "assault weapons" with machineguns/subguns. The OP is obviously talking about the post-2005 surge in sales of Title 1 civilian guns, not restricted Title 2 automatic weapons, since he speaks of "large numbers" buying them. I am not sure how many pre-'86 civilian-transferable collectibles are on the BATFE automatic weapon registry, but they sure don't change hands in "large numbers" by any stretch of the imagination.

I am 39 and have been a gun enthusiast since before the 1986 ban, and I have only ever seen a civilian-transferable submachinegun on two occasions that I recall. Once was at a range in Florida that would allow you to shoot a magazine through their Title 2 Uzi under supervision (for a considerable fee), and the other was when a collector showed up to a local IPSC-style carbine match with a vintage Sten a year or two ago. That's it.

BTW, to the OP, the overwhelming majority (80%) of U.S. gun owners are nonhunters; most of us own guns for defensive purposes and target shooting, in that order, with hunting a distant third and collecting bringing up the rear.

[Cal33]

92. From googling I got the following web address of a company

that sells guns. Boy! Was I surprised! You'd be surprised too. Just
look at "KeepShooting.com" They even sell AK-47s with 40-round magazines!
I know AK-47s are automatic assault rifles made in Russia and China.

Youy're right. I'm no gun expert.

[benEzra]

94. I own a U.S.-market "AK-47". It's a NFA Title 1 non-automatic.

Specifically, it's a 2002 model Romanian SAR-1 that I purchased new in 2003 for $379:



I shoot recreationally and competively with it. Like all civilian-market AK's, it's non-automatic and works just like any other U.S.-market civilian autoloader---it shoots once and only once when the trigger is pulled and will not fire again until the trigger is released and pulled a second time. It is also made to be difficult to convert to full auto as required by the 1986 Hughes Amendment.

The 40-round magazines and 75-round drums (which are actually surplus RPK magazines) are rare and collectible. The standard magazine capacity is 30, although that's a 20-round Hungarian magazine in the photo of mine above. Mine actually came with one of the 40-rounders when I bought it in 2003 (I don't think the dealer realized what he had) but the magazine weighs about three pounds loaded, making it slower and more unwieldy to use.

Real AK-47's are indeed selective-fire automatic weapons, but as a result they are as tightly controlled in this country as bombs and missiles, and exactly zero have been manufactured or imported for the U.S. civilian market since May 19, 1986. You can get Federal authorization to own one of the exceedingly rare pre-1986 civilian-tranferable specimens, but you will pay $15,000 to $17,000, cannot take it out of state without notifying the Federal government in writing, and the BATFE gets to inspect your paperwork once a year.

[Cal33]

97. Hi Ben: I checked with "Yahoo! Answers." My question was:

"Is it legal to own an Uzi?" Here is one of the replies:


Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
In most states you can own either a semi-automatic UZI, which transfers like any other rifle, or a full auto UZI, which requires a FBI/BATF background check and recipt of a 200.00 tax to purchase.
California, Illinois, Jersey and a few other far-left states do not allow these guns, but for the vast majority of free Americans, these guns can be had.
Check out Federal and State Machine Gun Laws, and Machine Guns for sale, here:
http://www.autoweapons.com

(I didn't check any of the above. I wouldn't understand the details, anyway).

[ieoeja]

98. No one said it was forbidden.

They said such firearms are rare and would cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Not only is it legal to own an UZI, it is also legal to own a space shuttle! So why not go for both?

[benEzra]

99. There are two separate issues here:

(1) the laws governing actual Uzi's (and all other submachineguns), and
(2) the very different (and far less restrictive) laws governing non-automatic civilian Uzi lookalikes.

U.S. law makes a huge distinction between submachineguns/automatic weapons (which can fire multiple shots in rapid succession when the trigger is held down), and civilian guns that fire once and only once when you pull the trigger.

Here, straight from the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms website:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/

The (1986 McClure-Volkmer Act) also amended the GCA to prohibit the transfer or possession of machineguns. Exceptions were made for transfers of machineguns to, or possession of machineguns by, government agencies, and those lawfully possessed before the effective date of the prohibition, May 19, 1986.

All automatic weapons, including actual Uzi's, have been tightly restricted since 1934 and banned since 1986; the only automatic weapons that may still be legally transferred to a non-LEO civilian since the 1986 ban are the rare collectibles that were already Federally approved and registered with the BATFE prior to May 19, 1986. There aren't many of these around (I've been a gun enthusiast for well over two decades and have only seen a couple of them in person), and they will set you back a LOT of money. Transferable pre-1986 Title 2 Uzi's go for somewhere between $5000 and $10,000, I think; AK-47's and M16's are less common and therefore price out higher, at $15,000 and up. Some WW2 collectibles go for in excess of $100,000.

Yes, automatic weapons are legal to possess in most states; they are also as tightly controlled as 500-lb bombs, shoulder-fired rockets with live warheads, hand grenades, and 105mm howitzers, which can also be legally possessed under the same restrictions. They are exceedingly rare, though, and people certainly aren't rushing out and buying them in droves because exactly zero new ones have come into the market since 1986.

Civilian non-automatic Uzi lookalikes, on the other hand, are functionally just regular 9mm civilian pistols, and hence are treated the same under the law as any other Title 1 civilian pistols. You can go to your local gun store and have them order a civilian Title 1 non-automatic that looks and feels just like a real Uzi, but it doesn't work the same as a real Uzi, nor can it be easily converted to do so; no matter how hard you pull the trigger, the civilian gun will fire only one time and won't fire a second shot until you release the trigger and pull it a second time.

It's exactly the same with my AK above; my rifle looks just like an AKM from the 1950's or early 1960's, but it works like any other civilian carbine.

The statement in the OP that triggered the gun-law discussion was this:

I think the preparations of the Neocons have been going on for decades. Today, another very bad sign is that large numbers of them are buying guns of all types, including machine pistols and submachine guns. Does anyone really need a submachine gun for hunting purposes? It seems they are already well prepared to crush any attempt to fight back, should the Neocons have succeeded in taking the country over. Few Americans are similarly armed. They'd be slaughtered and easily crushed.

You are correct that gun sales have been brisk since 2005 and accelerated greatly in 2008---primarily due to concerns over proposed new bans affecting the most popular civilian rifles and pistols---but you are incorrect in ascribing the bulk of this to neocons (around half of gun owners are Dems and indies, and we buy guns too), and definitely are incorrect in assuming that the modern-looking guns flying off the shelves include "machine pistols and submachine guns", because exactly zero new ones have been sold since 1986.

Dems and indies are a whole lot better armed than you think we are. :)

[Lagomorph]

102. On the balance...

...the vast majority of firearms sit quietly in people's locked safes, and are nothing more than a tool to be used at the appropriate time, whether it's recreation or self defense. It is the owner's personal ethics that determine the danger level. None of the shooting sports are about "letting go" or shooting full-auto. It's discipline, control and safety while doing something inherently dangerous, like almost any other sport.

[Cal33]

103. Hi Ben. Thanks for the info. I am quite convinced. I have a

technical question to ask. What is the speed of a .38 caliber bullet emerging from the muzzle of a 4-inch
colt six-shooter barrel. What range of accuracy does the bullet have?

And what would be the speed and range of the same bullet, if it were fired from a 6-inch barrel?
Is there any significant difference?

I owned a used six-shooter with a 4-inch barrel when I was living in Conn. many years ago. I kept it
for 8 years in a clean place, and never touched it at all. When I moved to another state, I sold the
revolver back to the store I bought it from. That is the extent of my private gun-ownership. I owned
one, but never even used it, not even for practice. What's the difference in effective range between
a 6" barrel and a 4" barrel, everything else being the same?

Thanks in advance for the info.

[benEzra]

109. Looks like most loads have about 10% more velocity out of the 6" than the 4",

or roughly 100 feet per second difference. Detailed results here:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

As far as accuracy, the biggest issue will be the sights. There isn't really any difference in potential accuracy from a mechanical standpoint between a revolver with a 4" barrel (or a 2" barrel) and a 6" barrel, but the longer sight radius of the 6" barrel makes it easier to aim precisely. I think a decent shooter with the 4" barrel would be easily capable of putting all shots into a 4" circle at 25 yards (assuming quality ammunition, a smooth trigger, and taking your time), and the same shooter with the 6" barrel might be able to stay in a 3" circle, but that's just a rough guess. It would depend more on the shooter, the lighting conditions, and the ammunition than on the barrel length in that case, I think. As far as range, if you're shooting from a braced position, hitting a stationary 2-ft x 4-ft target at 100 yards with a 4" or 6" revolver is not all that hard, if it has good sights and you can brace your wrists on a shooting bench or something. Shooting unbraced, maybe 50 yards for a decent shooter? Again, it depends on the individual and the gun.

BTW, the OP is a good post, and I hope I didn't derail your thread too badly.

[Cal33]

111. Thanks a lot for your information and the link. By the way, what

does "OP" stand for? I thought of "operator", but somehow it doesn't really fit.

I'm just trying to wake up some people to what I think is really going on. It's
fine when you point out some area in which I made a mistake. No problem.

[benEzra]

112. You're welcome!

And in the context of a forum, OP generally refers to "original post" or "original poster."

[eowyn_of_rohan]

101. Great post

should be spread far and wide.

[Cal33]

105. Thanks. Yep, I'm doing what I can to spread it far and wide. nt

[lonestarnot]

107. "several years just to undo the damage caused by Bush" doncha mean several decades?

[Cal33]

113. It might take several decades at that! :o)