Supposedly, we went into Afghanistan because the Taliban harbored Al Quada.

[Stinky The Clown]

The idea was that we needed to clean the place out.

We're ten years . . . . TEN FUCKING YEARS . . . . hence. What would happen is we just fucking left?

Pack up our shit. Turn out the lights at our bases. Call a cab. Give the driver an uptown address, roll down the window, light up a cigar, and head home.

What Would Happen?

[w8liftinglady]

1. I'm recommend this because-10 years is TOO FUCKING LONG

I have seen what happens to the troops...lets get the hell out!!!

[elleng]

2. IMO, not much change.

Taliban/AQ will be around forever.

[mike_c]

3. the whole exercise was a lie and a waste of lives....

It's all been discussed here over and over. The Taliban were not "harboring" al-Qaeda in any direct sense, and they offered to hand bin Laden over to a neutral party. Bush wanted to invade, period. There were never any other alternatives on the table.

We're still there for the same reasons-- no political will to do otherwise. It's disheartening and disgusting.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

4. My husband has a term for it

"pissing in the wind" for ten years.

The BBC in a documentary showed Al Q were sparse in Afghanistan. So why were we there?

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Honestly .... we all know why we *were* there. The question now is why ARE we there?

That is the answer that I think we now all know, but many wish not to say.

[Individualist]

10. I have an acronym for it

FUBAR

[Lucian]

20. We're there for the $1 trillion in mineral resources.

[Auggie]

6. I thought it was about The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline

or whatever the hell it's called. What would happen is that Western interests could kiss their control of it goodbye (I guess).

[Rosa Luxemburg]

11. where does this thing go?

To China?

[Auggie]

14. Pakistan or India

There are two pipeline proposals

Wikipedia: "The oil pipeline is a project proposed by several oil companies to transport oil from Azerbaijan and Central Asia through Afghanistan to Pakistan or India."

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline (TAP or TAPI) is a proposed natural gas pipeline being developed by the Asian Development Bank.The pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India. The abbreviation comes from the first letters of those countries. Proponents of the project see it as a modern continuation of the Silk Road. The Afghan government is expected to receive 8% of the project's revenue.

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline

And from the Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com)

"Afghanistan is adjacent to Middle Eastern countries that are rich in oil and natural gas. And though Afghanistan may have little petroleum itself, it borders both Iran and Turkmenistan, countries with the second and third largest natural gas reserves in the world. (Russia is first.)

Turkmenistan is the country nobody talks about. Its huge reserves of natural gas can only get to market through pipelines. Until 1991, it was part of the Soviet Union and its gas flowed only north through Soviet pipelines. Now the Russians plan a new pipeline north. The Chinese are building a new pipeline east. The U.S. is pushing for "multiple oil and gas export routes." High-level Russian, Chinese and American delegations visit Turkmenistan frequently to discuss energy. The U.S. even has a special envoy for Eurasian energy diplomacy.

Rivalry for pipeline routes and energy resources reflects competition for power and control in the region. Pipelines are important today in the same way that railway building was important in the 19th century. They connect trading partners and influence the regional balance of power. Afghanistan is a strategic piece of real estate in the geopolitical struggle for power and dominance in the region.

Since the 1990s, Washington has promoted a natural gas pipeline south through Afghanistan. The route would pass through Kandahar province. In 2007, Richard Boucher, U.S. assistant secretary of state, said: "One of our goals is to stabilize Afghanistan," and to link South and Central Asia "so that energy can flow to the south." Oil and gas have motivated U.S. involvement in the Middle East for decades. Unwittingly or willingly, Canadian forces are supporting American goals."

------------------

I'm missing the multi-national corporate money connection in the above, but you can bet it's there.

[Robb]

38. Not oil, but natural gas, and a touch out of date.

I've gone into exhaustive detail http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7842007">before, but in a nutshell, Turkmen gas has been grabbed by China, making Afghanistan irrelevant to Turkmenistan pipeline routes.

[Auggie]

42. They were after oil at one point too...

do oil companies give up that easily when they have the United States to fight their wars for them? I wouldn't bet on it.

Plus, I buy the Canadian story, which sounds like it could have written by the PNAC: "Afghanistan is a strategic piece of real estate in the geopolitical struggle for power and dominance in the region. Rivalry for pipeline routes and energy resources reflects competition for power and control in the region. Pipelines are important today in the same way that railway building was important in the 19th century. They connect trading partners and influence the regional balance of power."

[Robb]

43. Foster wrote that piece for the Star, as well as his earlier paper, before Yolotan was awarded

...to the Chinese. His analysis also predates the Turkmen-China pipe becoming operational.

The "big board" changed completely.

[Auggie]

45. Okay -- thanks for the update.

So why are we still in Afghanistan -- just to fight the Taliban?

on edit: or is it for the mineral wealth?

[Robb]

46. Depends who you ask.

Myself I don't think it's for the mineral wealth, for the same reason, interestingly enough: China.

China's already got an inroad there, as Jiangxi invested $3 billion a few years ago to mine copper at Anyak. In a country with a GDP of like $15 billion, that's rather making a point.

No, I think it's actually to fight the Taliban -- and al Qaeda. The sense around DU seems to be that if we stop our campaign against them, they'll just slip away quietly and never bother us again. Unfortunately that ignores that the goal of both organizations has been the establishment of a fundamentalist caliphate in opposition to the West -- and for the hardliners, that has always meant killing kuffar whenever convenient.

It's a compelling enough reason on its face to be there, but there will always been those that don't believe it -- and with good reason, considering I doubt very, very much "we" went there for that reason in the first place.

[grantcart]

50. The ADB proposal was never as a route to take natural gas to outside markets

it was always for local consumption in Afghanistan, Pakistan and possibly India.


The Asian Development Bank has periodic updates but it has been accessible in their data banks for years.


http://www.adb.org/Documents/TACRs/REG/37018-REG-TCR.pdf


The Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan Natural Gas Project (the Project) envisages the construction of a naturalgas transmission pipeline of about 1,700 kilometers to transport about 30 billion cubic meters of gas annually from the Dauletabad gas fields in southeast Turkmenistan to consumers in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly India.

[grantcart]

49. What both articles fail to point out is that the pipeline is intended for local consumers

not for transportation to the developed world.




The Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan Natural Gas Project (the Project) envisages the construction of a naturalgas transmission pipeline of about 1,700 kilometers to transport about 30 billion cubic meters of gas annually from the Dauletabad gas fields in southeast Turkmenistan to consumers in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and possibly India.

. . .

The Project is a pioneering effort to link the gas-rich Central Asian economies with the energy-deficient economies of South Asia. The Project is also the first attempt to find an outlet for natural gas from Central Asia to new markets in the East. The steering committee has met ten times, and the participating countries have shown commitment to advance the Project. The TA reflected the essence of ADB’s approach to regional cooperation and integration for the mutual benefit of the countries. As an active development partner, ADB acted as the secretariat and mobilized technical expertise under the TA.


This SECRET PIPELINE PROJECT has been publicly posted in the ADB data base for years.

You can access it here:

http://www.adb.org/Documents/TACRs/REG/37018-REG-TCR.pdf


Some columnists on the internet have been either lying about this or ignorant of it for years. quite often they include their own maps where they have inked in their own lines that are obvious fabrications.



Turkmenistan has abundant natural gas. Afghanistan doesn't. If you want the Afghans to use a more efficient fuel and stop cutting down their forests then natural gas is a great alternative. It can also be used as an alternative to petroleum.

[Parche]

7. Al Kida

is just a CIA operation, there is no al kida........

[MadMaddie]

8. My friend you are correct

If the U.S under * would have taken advantage of the small window to go in kill OBL and his minions and get out we would have been fine. What will be known as one of the greatest military blunders * was adamant on withdrawing troops and sending them to Iraq to topple Hussein.

That window was the first year it's long gone. We have no business there and we have no business building any military facilities there.

History Lesson, Russia got their asses handed to them and the war broke their economy.

Time to leave!

[LawnKorn]

9. Good intentions quickly run afoul in greed

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld found the path to put their defense contractor buddies on the gravy train. After the first year, the money to be made by the military industrial complex was just to tempting to resist. War for the sake of profit was the norm for the Bush Administration, and the inertia of money has carried the war into the Obama Administration.

It is time to call an end of these wars and just abandon the region. We have our own troubles her at home and we need our troops here.

[WeDidIt]

12. Remember that fuck up attempted bombing in Times Square?

That guy wasn't trained at a training camp.

If we rolled up and left Afghanistan, the Taliban would be right back in power, which you probably already guessed.

And their buddies in Al Queda would be right back in Afghanistan.

And they'd have camps to train people to set off a bomb in Times Square without it being a complete and total fuckup.

That's what would happen. Oh, I know nobody on DU wants to admit it, but that's what would happen.

And that's why we are still in Afghanistan almost nine years later.

NINE YEARS.

Because most of that time was a complete fuckoff by the last administration while they went off on an adventure to avenge Dumbass's daddy (or some such nonsense) and now we're trying to make up for lost time because of the fuckoff by the last administration. See, they lost sight of where the real fight was and totally fucked everybody.

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. WTF?

you write,
"If we rolled up and left Afghanistan, the Taliban would be right back in power, which you probably already guessed."

The fact is that there are many areas in the country that are still effectively controlled by the Taliban. Granted, they are no longer stoning people in Kabul's stadium, but they are still there. In addition, the Taliban need only refer back to the training manuals we provided them about asymetrical warfare to train competent bombers and there is no shortage of martyrs in Afghanistan.

[HughMoran]

24. You seem to be in agreement with the poster you are reponding too

:shrug:

[Dogtown]

29. Not at all.

WDI stated that the Taliban would be empowered *IF* we left.

Vinny suggested that the Taliban is, in fact, still in power despite our near decade long occupation of Afghanistan.

If they haven't ceased to exist after "9" years, it's very doubtful that we have the ACTUAL will to defeat them.


Quagmire...

[HughMoran]

31. Thanks Vinny.

In either case, we agree that the Taliban will be in power when we leave, that's the point.

[Dogtown]

32. You're confused.

I'm not Vinny.

Also, the Taliban will be in power whether we leave or no, so it's only the greed of our real rulers that keeps us bleeding there.

[HughMoran]

33. Right, you're not Vinny

I was originally responding to Vinny. We still don't disagree, so I'm not sure what the heck you're talking about.

[Dogtown]

37. You responded to my post, yet

you addressed Vinny. I suppose it was an attempt at levity that failed.


In all cases, however, we do not agree. I'm not a hawk. I don't support imperial adventures.

We had no business there, at all. We clearly could not, or, more succinctly, never intended to do anything about the Taliban.

Had we "defeated" them, we'd have no continuing casus belli to occupy a foreign country. No excuse to pilfer their resources. No bogeyman with which to scare our peaceful citizens into submission.

Your insistence on twisting comments to appear as if the Taliban are a threat to us is a hamstrung attempt to support an imaginary war.

The Taliban are going to continue to be a power in Afghanistan, despite our presence or withdrawal. We have neither the right, the power, nor the will to change that.

[xiamiam]

40. there is no real fight...the entire idea is obsolete and backwards

and ruining our economy..time to get out now and truly look forward

[Angry Dragon]

13. It is too bad the Soviet Union broke up when reagen was in office

We may have been a war economy up to that point, but least we did not go around as much and fight wars that we had no business in.
We had another super power to keep us somewhat in check. With that gone the leaders of this country figure we can do whatever we want and who is going to stop us.

[elias49]

21. I agree. I miss the cold war. It made a certain sense.

The 'war on terrorism' is senseless, endless, pointless. It isn't founded on ideological differences in same way that the mighty, global contest between communism and democracy was in the middle years of the 20th century. It's fickle and often partisan. It's just not war. It's just destruction, death, sickness and, last but not least, money.
:thumbsdown:

[Angry Dragon]

23. I never said I missed the cold war

I think it was a waste of money also, but it made more sense. It was more honest, if war can be honest. It made us behave better, we did not get the big head we have now.

[elias49]

26. I didn't say you DID

but you DO seem to have some fondish memories of a tense period in American history.
:shrug:

[Angry Dragon]

27. I really do not have a fondness for the cold war

The only thing that was good about it was it keep the hawks of this country at bay. They were not able to walk into any country they wished and invade. The Russians were a balance. Today it seems there is no balance to the hawks.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. The Soviet Union broke up in 1991

Two years after Reagan left office

[dflprincess]

47. And one big reason the Soviet Union broke up is because it went broke in Afghanistan

We never learn.

[frustrated_lefty]

15. The people thought we went in for the right reason.

I did too, and still do. The way the "war" has been waged is reminiscent of Viet Nam, though. Half-assed measures to poorly defined goals.

You don't invade Russia in winter. From a movie, "you don't get in a land-war in Asia." And, you don't sit around trying to figure out what to do in Afghanistan. Go in, demolish the place, make it your bitch, and get out, or don't go in at all.

[msongs]

17. because USA corporations are making $$ billions off of dead Americans & Afghanis nt

[Kalun D]

18. K and R

the reasons we went to Afghanistan

to re-establish the opium crop. The Taliban had destroyed an entire years crop and the CIA wanted it growing again. What's the first thing that happened after our invasion? The opium crop was re-planted, it now represents 80% of world total. The CIA has long used drugs to fund their covert off the books operations.

to establish an oil/gas pipeline, Karzai worked for Unocal, one of the companies behind the pipeline

to promote military expenditure. The first day of the invasion they launched 50 cruise missiles at $1MIL per. There's not even $50MIL worth of targets in the entire country.

the Taliban and Al-CIAduh have moved to Pakistan cuz they know we won't go after them there. Bin Laden died in 2002 and we never wanted to get him anyway.

[Oregone]

19. Their magic soil would produce more bad guys

[HughMoran]

22. Nothing for a while

We'd probably see a reorganization of Al Quada in Afghanistan after a time. From there? Anybody's guess - maybe more attacks around the world - I dunno.

[TheWatcher]

25. Then Who would We Exploit for Oil, Smack, and Minerals?

Afghanistan has the Trifecta.

Can't Leave A Good Thing.

And then there's that whole Democracy thing.....

[Scuba]

28. I thought it was to improve the lives of Afghani women. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[treestar]

30. Some 80% supported it at that time

and they can damn well live with the consequences.

Apparently just leaving is not a good option. We made the mess and it would be irresponsible to just leave it suddenly. that does not sound unreasonable.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. That wasn't unreasonable ......

.... eight years ago.

[treestar]

36. After all these years, we've created a bigger mess

So it does not seem unreasonable to say it would be irresponsible to just pick up and leave.

[Fumesucker]

35. Ponies don't grow on trees you know..

And those rats aren't going to fuck themselves.

So quit pining for rainbow pooping unicorns and get with the fucking program.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. We lost. Get out. Get over it. K&R

[harun]

44. The U.S.'s sparkly rocks are under their mountains. So we need to stay.

[dflprincess]

48. We stay there because claiming we are at war is a way to continue to hand money over to the MIC

without question while destroying the U.S. economy and with it the working & middle classes. Thus making the rich richer and the rest of us on the way to a 3rd world standard of living.