Oh McCrystal and insubordination

[nadinbrzezinski]

My husband is a retired USN Chief... My brother in law is a Retired USN Petty Officer First Class, and I did my time as an officer in somebody else's military. Suffice it to say that if ANY of us said even half the things the General and his staff said, our asses would be in a sling,and soon on our way to a military prison. Yes I heard Mr. Oberman's Special Comment. And while I concur with him on the POLITICAL considerations, here is something Mr. Olbermann (and most other people who have NEVER worn anybody's uniform) miss. This is the concept of GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE.

In the civilian world this simply does not exist.

In a military force this is essential if you are to have a disciplined forced that will not question orders, UNLESS they are illegal. Then it is your duty to question them.

But here is a principle of ANY military I know off. You can discuss orders, you can question them... hell you must, until those orders, or plan is finally decided on. Once this is done, salute smartly and follow those orders... to the best of your abilities.

If General McCrystal could not follow the plan as sent to him, he should have done the honorable thing a while ago... RESIGN.

For the record, what the General did was a clear violation of the UCMJ, and I do not expect people who have never served in unform to get it, but if the general should stay in uniform... there is a clear message to the ranks, and not a positive one. And yes, I'd be considering a General Court Martial, for this is dangerous to that good order and discipline, which incidentally would be one of the charges.

That is all.

[backscatter712]

1. There's also the danger to civilian control of the military, and of the government of the U.S.

If Obama lets this slide, he will create a precedent where generals who don't like the orders they're given by the President can start bucking them without consequence. When that starts, it will be very difficult to stop generals from building their own political power base (and the military-industrial complex has waaaaay too much power already.)

Before long, there will be a point where a flagrantly insubordinate general cannot be fired even if the President wanted to and had support from the rest of the government.

After that, the generals will start giving orders to the President.

And by that point, the generals will have a strong political base to prop them up, along with the oldest and nastiest political tool in history - soldiers and weapons.

The endgame will be an America that's much like a third-world banana republic, where every time the government pisses the military off, the generals issue threats of a coup d'etat. And that's assuming they haven't carried out those threats and became the government, destroying democracy entirely and maintaining power from the barrel of a gun.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You get it., and in the US Military

all this comes under the rubric of Good order and discipline.

Here you may want to read this

http://www.voltairenet.org/article30031.html

http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=coup+of+2012&fr=moz2-ytff-sunm&u=www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/fr-Military_Coup_2012-2.pdf&w=coup+2012&d=EMiPorZfU_RN&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=pWm4jngqYEytNIri04zh8g--

The second is the text of a paper written by a Colonel in 1992 while at the War College... Suffice it to say he is currently a Major General

[defendandprotect]

26. Evidently, the Joint Chiefs haven't yet been able to give "orders to the Pres"

so they've simply betrayed them behind their backs!

See: Prouty on that --

Obama should have called this guy back and fired him just as the RS article

hit the stands --

A slow decision on this makes Obama look indecisive --

[TwilightGardener]

2. Recommend, I fully agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Thanks

there are some lines that cannot be crossed... why Trumman fired McCarthur and why Obama HAS to fire this man tomorrow. He had two close calls, where he should have been fired.

I feel sorry for his staff, since being close might ruin their careers, but this is the example from the commanding general and it is unacceptable.

[csziggy]

28. I don't feel sorry for the staff

From what I have heard quoted, they gleefully participated in the ridicule of their Commander in Chief and his appointees. If McChrystal is fired, some of his staff should go also or be put where they can be watched very carefully to make sure they have not been permanently tainted.

[sharesunited]

5. You are correct and McChrystal clear. The elected civilian leadership is who you salute.

The fact that he doesn't respect President Obama is completely secondary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Exactly, the CiC IS in the chain of command

and that is disrespect to a superior officer, yet another charge.

A few militaries around the world do not have that civilian supremacy, but the US... goes all the way back to Washington. So Stanley should have known better.

[spanone]

7. k&r

[LuckyLib]

8. How can a soldier of McChrystal's rank do something so idiotic? Whose interests are served by this

interview?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. He has a history

this is not the first time. And yes he got pretty stupid, but there is the chance that since he's been on thin ice before, and pretty much dressed down, he thought he could get away with it. Why this time he cannot be allowed to walk out with his rank and command.

[defendandprotect]

27. McChrystal looks fanatically rw to me ... involved in TORTURE at Nama . ..

something I don't think the Congress got into when they approved him for this post!


http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/01/will-the-senate-ask-m... /


As some others have suggested, Obama should look into what this guy may have been

saying to the troops --

Reminder of the Gen. Edwin G. Walker affair -- he was fired by Presidnt John F. Kennedy

for distributing right wing material -- Nazi/KKK/John Birch stuff -- in the Army.

Later, he led the racist rally at Ole Miss to keep James Meredith from enrolling --

He was arrested there and "psychiatric" help was recommended!

You might find the name familiar -- this is also the guy that Lee Harvey Oswald

allegedly shot at thru one of the windows of the General's home!

[mzmolly]

10. I'm torn after listening to Olbermann. Admittedly your post has me considering the example

that the General sets for the rest of the military. How can we expect ANYONE to exhibit GOOD ORDER AND RESPECT if the General in charge of Afghanistan does not do so?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Col. Wilkerson seemed to agree with Keith

granted the Colonel is far more of a political animal, but yes, to me the issue is good order and discipline and Stan has not done this only ONCE, but now three times. The other two times politics ruled the roost, but if this is not stopped, it will just get worst.

The military is not a democracy, and relies on very strong top down control, as well as example. Good leaders, well people will jump on a grenade for them, bad examples... not so much. And if he is allowed to stay in uniform well the military might get a little out of control, and be the basis for a "night of the colonels," euphemism for Latin American coups.

[mzmolly]

12. What about a demotion as others have suggested?

Can that be done? Or, assigning him to some shitty low level task?

[TwilightGardener]

13. I don't think that's any different than taking his command away from him.

Which is to say, he resigns or is "fired" from being the commander in Afghanistan--doesn't mean he's out of the military. Probably he'll retire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I suspect he will be strongly

encouraged to retire... if you get my drift.

[TwilightGardener]

16. Yes...maybe he will be offered command of the Army Kazoo Band

headquartered in Suckville, Georgia, or something similar--if he doesn't opt to retire on his own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Wasn't somewhere close to the North Pole

or the South Pole the favorite place to send bad kids to?

:hi:

Though that will be strong encouragement to ahem "voluntarily" leave the army...

[mzmolly]

19. I think that's what should be done. And his offer to retire should be refused.

This per another DU-er earlier today.

[mzmolly]

17. If he retires he's free to really blather.

That, I think is the dilemma? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. And as a prIvate citizen all the power to him

right now his first amendment rights are non existent... like all active duty troops...

And by the way I am counting on him getting a job oh with Fox the day after he gets his DD 214. And unlike McCarthur, I don't expect Stan to ahem retire from public life...

But anybody who knows the score and how the military works, the alternative of keeping him in uniform is worst... see good order and discipline... we have had a few troops going... I WON'T go, not because they don't believe in the war, but because they will not obey the order of the unelected CiC... Stan stays, you think we have issues now. Just wait. Why incidentally I believe they should go for the full monty and court martial his sorry ass.

[mzmolly]

22. I can't argue

with that. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You need a court martial, he is an officer

Enlisted in the field get demoted all the time... under administrative action. His commission was authorized by Congress, signed off. They may do it administratively as he retires, which is also a message. We did not bother trying you, but you are off to retirement as a three star...

Incidentally USN Chiefs are also non-commissioned commissioned officers, aka Congress signs off on the Chief's lists, which gives them quite a bit of leeway to ahem correct bad officers and not suffer the consequences.

Now if they wanted to get evil, instead of a GENERAL Court Martial, they could do a SUMMARY court martial in the field. I will be surprised if they even go for a General Court Martial quite frankly. I suspect he will go the way of McCarthur.

[mzmolly]

20. Oh boy. It seems there is no perfect

solution.

[Raksha]

23. Lots of us who have never served in the military have friends who are vets,

and they were very quick to explain to us what "good order and discipline" means, in case we didn't know already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. What I am saying is that the concept does NOT exist

in the civilian world, and a vet can explain it, but the Special Comment came from that civilian world where the concept does not exist. The closest to this in the civilian world are paramilitary organizations, read Police and Fire... but this is mostly theoretical and still hard to understand for civilians as a practical matter.

That is not to say that some people get it, whether they served in uniform or not... but the latter are rare as hell, truly.

[JDPriestly]

25. GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE

Actually, GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE do exist -- in Germany and Austria (especially in kindergartens there) and in certain well organized good-sized families. You haven't met my mom. She is liberal to the core but somehow always managed GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE. Amazing woman, my mom.

[Obamanaut]

29. I read the RS article, and there were no quotes that could be said to

be contemptuous that I could see. Some perhaps ill-advised, maybe even off-color or rude, but not directly contemptuous.

'Good order and discipline' is a part of every day life in many fields, not just the military - it does exist everywhere. School systems, hospitals, businesses. 'Good order' is self explanatory, and 'discipline' is adherence to a set of rules or operating prodedures.

[Saboburns]

31. Thank you

Thank you for saying that, I agree completely.

I don't see any Insubordination from McChrystal.

[Donkeykick]

30. There's no doubt about it.

They should mess with that dude's world. (You let a private do something like that and watch what happens!):eyes: