Military people here: would you wear combat gear to meet with the President

[hedgehog]

in the Oval Office?

[CTyankee]

1. I'm not in any way military but I think military personnel going to the WH

for a meeting with the President should be in formal military uniforms. If this pic was taken in the White House I'd like to know why McChristal isn't...

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Yup He should have been in dress uniform.

He's not in Afghanistan.

[AsahinaKimi]

77. Maybe he did it for a reason.

Surely he knew the Press would photograph him. Those on the right wing will scream about Obama having no respect for the "Soldiers in the field". I have a feeling as I said in another post that Beck, Limbaugh and Fox News will make this guy out as a real American Hero, standing up to the President.

Watch them SPIN THIS...just watch!!

[damntexdem]

35. Would you wear only briefs and a guitar.

Naked GI!

[MattBaggins]

97. Dress greens, flip flops and a light coat of oil

[av8rdave]

2. If I'm actually actively serving in combat, absolutely

When I was a pilot in the military, I wore a flight suit for nearly every duty. That is, after all what I was.

If I'm out slogging around in the desert getting my @$$ shot at, will I show up in a combat uniform? You betcha!

[rfranklin]

5. It's like showing up in a pair of overalls if you're a mechanic or a farmer...

Shows a basic lack of respect for the President and the office, whoever he or she is at the time. If it was Bush, however, I would decline the meeting.

[DrDan]

9. this is his uniform-of-the-day - so completely appropriate

[av8rdave]

26. Absolutely!

UOD was the term I was grasping for. It's been too long since I've been in!

[av8rdave]

24. I guess as former military, I see it as the opposite

Even combat gear or a flight suit IS a military uniform. It serves to remind the President what exactly it is I'm doing at his command.

Granted, for a formal event (ceremony, dinner, commemoration, memorial, etc.), a dress uniform is the appropriate wear.

[hedgehog]

47. I guess that's what got my hackles up - I saw the message not as

"I'm leading people who are out fighting and dying" but as "I know more about this than you do."

[JuniperLea]

60. I would think anyone, military or otherwise...

Should present themselves in their BEST attire when visiting the president in the White House. Protocol isn't all that different in business and military.

[av8rdave]

67. When you're a combat troop and it's the uniform of the day, it's appropriate

unless it's a formal function. Remember the President is the commander in chief of the armed forces. Any commander in chief worth his salt will appreciate and respect a combat uniform. I suspect President Obama does.

[Winterblues]

73. I was a lowly enlisted man but we were not allowed to wear fatigues off base.

If we left the base we wore either khakis or dress greens. That was over forty years ago though so who knows how it works now. :shrug: And there is no combat going on within the USA.

[JonLP24]

76. I'm pretty sure you can these days

wear fatigues off base. I was last in, in June '08. Soldiers often went off base for lunch and many went to do shopping or other errands still in uniform after work on the way home.

I have actually never worn Class A's or B's except during the last day of basic training and for a Class A inspection prescribed by our First Sergeant a couple of months after we returned from deployment.

[av8rdave]

81. We also couldn't wear flight suits off base. However,

They were appropriate for all duty on base, including VIP tours, staff conferences, etc. I spent a day with a high ranking member of the Saudi Arabian royal family in my flight suit, giving tours, simulator flights, and conferences.

It was, after all, the uniform of the day, and I was actively on flying duty.

[Better Believe It]

86. Would you show up as a General in a combat uniform or dress uniform at the White House?

[av8rdave]

99. That depends....

If I'm meeting the President one on one to discuss combat issues, I'm in the uniform of the day. If I'm attending a White House official function, or conducting a formal briefing, I'm in a dress uniform.

Of course, I was never in much danger of being a General, so it's a hypothetical question at best!

:hi:

[jody]

3. Absolutely! n/t

[noamnety]

4. Gosh, I wouldn't consider that combat gear.

Til I clicked the link and saw the photo, I thought you meant flak jackets, helmet, etc. That's a pretty routine way to dress for soldiers - it's a standard uniform of the day. I saw someone in their BDUs shopping in the garden center at Meijer's last week, I certainly didn't think Holy Crap they are in combat gear buying planters!

[CTyankee]

16. A plant store isn't on a par with the White House and meeting with your Commander in Chief.

I would think that there is a protocol about this somewhere...it just seems out of place.

Perhaps that photo was taken somewhere else? There has to be a reason for McChrystal to be dressed like this. I mean, after all, isn't the whole idea of the dress uniform for occasions such as this? :shrug:

[noamnety]

31. It just looks normal to me.

Maybe as someone outside the military your perspective isn't the same as mine. I spent a fair number of years in, and spent a lot of time lurking in the basement of the pentagon. We don't see wearing our uniform as a sign of disrespect.

[CTyankee]

37. In those photos, absolutely. I was just thinking about the White House

and its own protocols. Again, tho, I don't know about such protocols.

[TexasObserver]

6. McChrystal is the second coming of Ollie North.

Another one who thinks he's the only guy who knows what should happen, and by God, everyone ought to defer to him.

Fire his ass.

[DrDan]

7. yes - it is appropriate and allowed

[Cleita]

8. I don't know about military protocol, but it seems that dress is for formal

occasions. What you wear everyday to work would seem appropriate for an informal meeting in the day. He seems to have his best uniform and boots on not what he would wear in the field.

[CTyankee]

23. I once had a neighbor (in Fairfax County, VA) who was a Navy captain and worked

at the Pentagon. He wore his officer's uniform on days where there would be meetings -- he called it "blue day" -- and the other days he wore a business suit and tie. So I'm not getting these distinctions here...but whadda I know...

[Cleita]

41. Although one of my childhood homes was in an AFB town in Southern

California, so we saw a lot of military around but I never was into the fine points of the dress regulations, so I don't consider myself an expert at all. I was just making a guess. I really don't think a General would show a lot of disrespect to his Commanding Officer though unless he's a real dick. Perhaps others will explain.

[dgibby]

10. Military members wear the "Uniform of the Day",

as prescribed by both the Pentagon and one's command. It's not an individual choice.

[JuniperLea]

22. So, you're saying, when he meets with other important people...

This is the dictate... but the president doesn't deserve him in full dress?

[dgibby]

63. He is required to wear the Uniform of the Day,

depending on his command, the military district he's in, and the weather.

It has nothing to do with the President.

[Travis Coates]

98. No, he's saying that in the military you wear what you are told to wear NT

[JonLP24]

11. Not in the military any more

But if it was part of my job I likely would. I wore those things everywhere when I was in.

[Solly Mack]

12. It's not combat gear - it's his standard uniform. It isn't disrespectful.

There's no doubt where the rank lies in that photo...it's with the CinC.

[av8rdave]

28. Exactly....not to mention that a combat soldier in combat gear deserves respect as well!

[zipplewrath]

13. I really thought they had rules on this stuff

But they've gone through several cycles on these rules in my time. But I though "dress" was still required for going to the White House.

[enlightenment]

15. Unless things have changed, as long as the uniform is

worn 'complete' - correct shoes/boots, shirt, trousers and headgear (outside) - there is nothing improper in what he is wearing. It's not a dress uniform, but it's not an improper uniform nor disrespectful. In essence, it is the military equivalent of the President's outfit - business casual.

[hedgehog]

36. I was thrown by the boots and camo - but white shirt and tie

is not exactly "business casual".

Thanks for the feed-back, everyone.

:hi:

[jezebel]

17. If memory serves me right, this was not the Oval Office. It was Air Force one. nt

[WeDidIt]

19. IF that's the case, his dress is completely appropriate n/t

[Barack_America]

25. Your memory serves right.

[jody]

27. Outstanding catch "Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal met with Obama for about 25 minutes aboard Air Force

parked on the runway in Copenhagen"

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/10/02/2009-10-02_gen_mcchrystal_pitched_president_obama_on_more_troops_for_afghanistan_during_oly.html&usg=__dl4uSn7uO3kFkwXo4eLHefj4esE=&h=323&w=485&sz=57&hl=en&start=3&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=_hhaK9wLIKVZnM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMcChrystal%2B%2522rolling%2Bstone%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

[hedgehog]

39. My mistake - i saw the fancy yellow rug and thought it was the Oval Office.

[WeDidIt]

18. If I were meeting with the president in the White House, I'd wear a Class A uniform

Things may have changed in the almost thirty years since I served, though.

[JuniperLea]

20. Such a bullshit move...

I felt that way at the time, and still do.

Notice he has appropriate dress attire... and last time I checked, the White House is quite a distance from the wars... there was plenty of time to get himself into appropriate dress attire to meet with his boss.

[leftofcool]

40. The meeting was at the White House? I thought it was on AF 1

[JuniperLea]

61. In the Oval Office...

That's the first set of work or military boots I've ever seen in that room... Google image search "oval office" and you'll see what I mean.

[Brother Buzz]

66. Google Oval Office carpet and see what's missing

That photograph was taken on Air Force One in Denmark. Note the airplane windows in the background.


President Barack Obama meeting with Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top commander in Afghanistan, Friday, Oct. 2, 2009, aboard Air Force One in Copenhagen, Denmark.

[hack89]

21. His uniform is appropriate.

it also appears that the photo was taken on AF1 - which makes even more appropriate.

[Catherina]

29. Totally appropriate. The man is a combat soldier not a REMF n/t

[jody]

30. Be nice now, sometimes REMFs get to be commanders or even commanders in chief. n/t

[Catherina]

32. Touche. n/t

[hedgehog]

43. On the other hand, I don't think Copenhagen is a center of combat operations!

[jody]

48. What are the circumstances behind the meeting? Was McChrystal summoned unexpectedly to meet Obama

after another meeting where the uniform was proper?

IMO there are enough reasons to fault McChrystal without trying to make up stuff.

[CTyankee]

56. Wasn't he summoned after some remarks he made?

I think it was unplanned at that moment...I seem to recall there was an "incident" and the meeting was then called...

[jody]

57. Don't know but the article I cited in this thread said McChrystal was returning from a meeting with

a think tank, I believe.

[pinboy3niner]

64. Yes. McChrystal spoke out of turn, was summoned for "smackdown"

From the Rolling Stone story:

....Last fall, during the question-and-answer session following a speech he gave in London, McChrystal dismissed the counterterrorism strategy being advocated by Vice President Joe Biden as "shortsighted," saying it would lead to a state of "Chaos-istan." The remarks earned him a smackdown from the president himself, who summoned the general to a terse private meeting aboard Air Force One. The message to McChrystal seemed clear: Shut the fuck up, and keep a lower profile.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37847841/ns/us_news-military

[damntexdem]

33. Would you wear only bikini briefs and a guitar.

Naked GI!

[asdjrocky]

34. I thought class A was required for visiting the White House.

Of course, I learned this on West Wing, so I could be wrong.

[JonLP24]

38. I think it's Air Force One

based on what's mentioned up-thread.

From the picture to Obama's left, it does look like an airplane wall left to the drapes.

[CTyankee]

What do the AF officers who fly AF One wear?

I read somewhere that the AF pilots who fly the President aboard AF One are all colonels. Just wondering what they wear when on duty...

[Llewlladdwr]

50. I'm pretty sure they wear standard issue flight suits.

Just like every other military pilot does when flying a military aircraft.

[hedgehog]

52. Since they're on the job, that would make sense.

[CTyankee]

53. Just saw one I googled. They wear a collared shirt with a tie and over it

they have a special "Air Force One" zippered jacket with an insignia. Very cool.

[jody]

44. It's Air Force One, picture below in Copenhagen

[proteus_lives]

42. Not combat gear, not the Oval Office.

Did you know that?

[hedgehog]

45. I didn't know either- I was looking at the camo gera and combat boots as opposed to

[hedgehog]

46. Turns out he does get dressed up for White house visits:

:blush:

[Statistical]

49. This is a combat uniform ....

as is this



and this



What the soldier in photo is wearing is not combat uniform. It is simply uniform of the day. Depending on the situation, the location, the timeframe is may be appropriate (of course also depending on the situation is may also be inappropriate).

If the briefing was time sensitive likely someone is going to wear what they have been wearing all day and right now for *most* soldiers that is the ACU (uniform in OP). If it is an meeting arranged in advance then like Class-A would more appropriate.

You can't determine disrespect simply by what is being worn without knowing whole context (time, location, situation, urgency, etc).

Then again if Obama ever felt disrespect from being around ACUs he hid it very well in these photos:

[hedgehog]

51. I stand corrected.

and again - thanks to everyone who took the time to explain this.


Looking over a bunch of pictures, I think he wears dress greens (?) in Washington and camo with boots in Europe and Afghanistan.

[CTyankee]

54. Why in Europe? I get it about Afghanistan but just wondering about Europe.

Maybe it's just standard dress. I've seen military personnel in this country wearing such a uniform...

[Statistical]

55. Uniform of the day is set by the command.

Right now For 99%+ of soldiers both CONUS (stateside) and OCONUS("outside continental united states") the uniform of the day is what is in the OP.

For better or worse the military has moved away from the "Class-A" or dress uniform and used the ACU or duty uniform in more situations.

[CTyankee]

58. Thanks...what you learn on DU!

[Gaedel]

62. Yes

Yes, when I first went into the Army, it was "no fatigues after 5:00 PM and no fatigues off post". If you had any kind of office job, you wore greens with coat and tie. Any where in the MDW (Military District of Washington) you wore greens and needed special dispensation to wear fatigues (like you were going to clean a grease trap). Wearing fatigues on a commercial flight was strictly verboten. Now, fatigues seem to have become the pretty much all purpose uniform.

[JonLP24]

65. Was it awhile ago that you were in?

I was in recently but not any more but I never heard of the after 5 or off post thing. Many times my unit kept us around after 5pm well into 6 because we had to wait for our Platoon Sergeants to have their meeting with the First Sergeant so they could relay information to us. Plus many in the barracks continued wearing their uniforms because it didn't make much sense to change into clothes that will have to change out of in an hour or two to get to sleep.

Plus it would seem unreasonable to me to have a ban of base for fatigues (which was never stated to me anyways) because many left off post to go to lunch (it can get quite crowded in eating establishments on base-causing lines to be long) and those that lived off post often would pick up groceries or do some sort of shopping on the way home.

Also I'm not sure about the office environment one either. HHD, were the Battalion Commander and Battalion Command Sergeant Major worked, all wear ACUs and so did the lower enlisted that worked there which was completely an office environment. So did JAG officers whenever I did visit their building. If you mean for top level places than I can see that with that said, I never did work in an office environment.

Finally I never heard of the commercial flights one. After basic training for Christmas leave, they all sent us on buses to St. Louis Airport in fatigues to catch our commercial flights home. Also during leave in Iraq, we did fly in a charter flight to Atlanta but we all caught commercial flights home and almost all were in fatigues as well. Reason is because there probably isn't enough time to change into civilian clothes or many would think it would be unnecessary to change in an airport bathroom.

[Gaedel]

68. 1961

When I was at Fort Hood in 1963-64, the III Corps staff, the two division staffs, and the post weenies wore greens and the others wore OG-107 fatigues. When we had an inspection, we wore greens. It was about 1990 that fatigues became pretty much general wear.

[JonLP24]

59. Even in bases across the US

If you happen to come across the post general, chances are, he/she will be wearing the ACU(pictured in the OP).

[Lagomorph]

69. It depends....

...If you are working in the area and are invited to the white house, dress up.

If you are summoned to the white house by the president, you probably won't get the opportunity to change. The military will deliver you directly to the door without any stops along the way.

[Forkboy]

70. Not in the military myself, but it seems fine to me.

Seems like a pretty silly thing for anyone to be upset over.

Which means lots of people will be upset over this.

[noamnety]

71. That sums up my thoughts pretty well.

No disrespect to the OP intended here, but in general I am confused by the concern over whether or not he was dressed appropriately given that he's A FUCKING WAR CRIMINAL overseen facilities and operations which run contrary to the policies set forth in the Geneva Conventions. By putting the focus on whether it's a grave offense to wear work boots in the white house, we trivialize the real problem in that photo.

[Forkboy]

72. Superb point!

:thumbsup:

[JonLP24]

74. I couldn't agree more

Spot on!

[hedgehog]

79. Part of the function of a uniform is to convey a message about the

people wearing it. If the General were to show up at the White House wearing the same clothes he wears in Afghanistan, it could suggest that the President is REMF with no right to tell a "real"
soldier what to do.

On edit: Wearing the wrong style of uniform to a particular occasion can be as insulting as anything McChrystal actually said. That's why I raised the question.

[noamnety]

80. But it's not anywhere near as appalling

as the things McChrystal has done.

I have the same complaint about the rolling stones article outrage: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8610492

I'm looking at this from a larger human rights perspective. Imagine what this outrage over wearing boots in the white house would look like to someone who lost a loved one in one of our wedding party massacres in Afghanistan. Imagine what it looks like to someone who spent time being tortured under McChrystal's watch to find out that the reason he was forced to resign wasn't that he was involved in abuse, but that he criticized the president in a magazine.

I think we may have lost our way if we can't see that in perspective.

[hedgehog]

84. i see what you're saying. I think the disrespect is a symptom

of the greater problem you describe.

[Posteritatis]

85. What disrespect? Several posters here mention that's simply the day's required uniform

Soldiers, even most of the generals, don't get to pick and choose what they wear, so this talk about wearing a "combat uniform" to snub the President at the White House - which he hasn't even been to yet, as OP's photo is on Air Force One - is just tin-hattery.

[hedgehog]

88. I was referring to the disrespect described in the Rolling Stone article.

I asked if the photo indicated disrespect and was informed that it did not.

[Posteritatis]

89. Whoops; fair enough.

I'll be over here, waiving my right to comment on clear reading of discussions for the next day or so...

[lunatica]

75. I think dress uniforms are strickly for formal occasions aren't they?

I mean more formal than meeting with the President except if meeting him at a state dinner or other formal function.

[TwilightGardener]

91. No. They are actually worn every day or every week by many military personnel.

[Old Troop]

78. After 9-11 a General Order was promulgated designating the

combat uniform as the duty uniform for all Army members. The class A, B or Army Blue uniform could be required by local commanders for specific functions. I believe that this order was rescinded earlier this year however.

[bigwillq]

82. I have no issue

with the General's attaire.

[Posteritatis]

83. Of all the misinterpreted nonissues to rage about.. (nt)

[oldlib]

87. Dress Uniform!

When I was in the U.S. Air Force in the fifties you did not wear fatigue uniforms off base, to chapel or any formal on-base event. Relaxing these rules, these past recent years, shows a disrespect for the uniform.

[JonLP24]

92. I'm not sure what the rules are

for chapels or formal on-base events. I'm not religious (except for the fact that I went to the chapel on Sunday's in Basic Training to avoid cleaning for an hour which is all we did on Sundays. In Basic Training all we had was the ACU so we didn't have a choice) and I never been invited to anything special on base so there's that--I can't comment. I just don't understand the off base thing. It would be very time consuming for people to change out of clothes and change back into uniform just to leave off base during lunch break. Also I don't see at as disrespect when a soldier coming off of work would have to change on base somewhere and then leave or when they go run errands especially if there is a time constraint like hurry up to get a money order when you get off at 5:30 to pay the bill for an apartment complex that closes at 6.

I understand what you're saying but I don't see the off base thing as disrespect.

[oldlib]

95. Dress Uniforms.

We were allowed to wear "Civies" (Civilian Clothes) off base and this was commonly the case. So uniforms were not always needed.

[JonLP24]

96. We were allowed to do that as well

but in many situations it wasn't practical to switch into civilian clothes on the way home or going off base for lunch.

[TwilightGardener]

90. If he had been respectful to the President and staff, I could overlook this--

now, seeing his BDU's instead of dress greens, I am forced to see this in a new light and pick up a pattern of disrespect. Many members of the Air Force must wear dress blues on a regular workday once a week (usually Mondays). Pretty sure McC has someone to iron his uniform and put his medals and name tag in place for him in order to see the President.

[trof]

93. Nossir! I'd wear Class A uniform.

[SwampG8r]

94. if i am a military lifer

and i am going to meet the POTUS i would wear my dress uniform
i asked my dad a navy lifer and he says he would have worn his dress whites
and he would have been up all night polishing buttons shoes and buckles

[MyNameGoesHere]

100. You people throwing out the Uniform of the Day tripe

can easily look it up.

2006. SERVICE UNIFORMS (See figs. 2-20 through 2-28, 2-31, and 2-32.)
1. The service "A" uniform may be prescribed for parades, ceremonies, social events, and as the uniform of the day. It will normally be worn when reporting for duty, unless otherwise prescribed by the commander. The service "A" uniform will be prescribed for the following official military occasions:

a.When assigned as a member of courts-martial or courts of inquiry.

b. Official visits and calls of, or to, United States civil officials, officers of the United States Armed Forces, and officials/officers of foreign governments per chapter 12, U.S. Navy Regulations.

c. When visiting the White House and the temporary White Houses at all times, except in a tourist capacity or when an individual is specifically invited either on a social or official occasion for which another uniform is indicated on the invitation.


If the "invitation" said he could wear it then so be it. I would have made the sob come in the most uncomfortable uniform possible.