On magical thinking and pseudo science

[nadinbrzezinski]

so yesterday I went to my market, as usual. And here is this guy selling fossils (cool right?) and other things. He had a very cool North African cross that implies the four points of the compass rose, North, South, East and West. So I made an innocent comment, as to many cultures have similar symbols. (Incidentally that makes sense since traditional peoples need to know how to do land navigation, and the four points of the compass rose are like critical). So instead of talking about this we went into bizarro land.

He honestly believes that this is because humans once walked Pangea... and that humans are MUCH OLDER than the 100,000 years for Homo Sapiens, best case scenario 200,000 years. He is also positive the Mayans predicted the end of the world, and will find a safe place when we see the stellar alignment, that by the way killed the dinosaurs the last time around... (150,000 years ago). It was truly bizarre. He actually had never heard, or understood... the meaning of the K-T line and that asteroid oh 65 million years ago.

Still I got a cool fossil... I love the damn things, and of course that cross. It will go into some fiction. Let's be honest, some of these traditional things are fun. But it is quite amazing how a human mind can take all sorts of facts and transform them into some of the weirdest magical thinking I have ever heard in my life, though rich for fiction. What is scary though is that this is increasingly the nature of the country, where rationalism is giving way to magic... next thing I will see is for people to actually believe that Air Benders are real. (That is a summer movie, a FANTASY summer movie)

[lazarus]

1. was that the Hillcrest market?

We missed the fossil guy, then. I love fossils, and don't have any here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yep, the Hillcrest market

[gateley]

2. To me, it's no more whack than believing in some things religions

teach. Both, I think, tap into peoples fears and hopes.

[JuniperLea]

3. Mankind has been making up the "woo woo" forever...

Interesting how the mind works... I guess some people can't deal with there being no explanation for some things. Personally, I love that there are no explanations for some things.

We really know so little.

[izquierdista]

13. You had no uncles growing up?

Uncles exist to provide rational explanations of the world to young children. How else would children learn physiology if no one dared them to "pull my finger", or the physics of friction unless they got a 'Dutch rub'? And yes, there are explanations for everything. The moon? Green cheese that Santa Claus collected from millions of refrigerators. Snipe? Excellent eating if you have a big enough pillow case and are very patient. Jesus? Why sure, if you ask him nice, I'm sure he can get you a pony.

Speak for yourself. If you have nieces and nephews, you know everything.

[JuniperLea]

17. I had three Uncles...

A Fundy (who was leading a double life and had another family in another state), a Liar/Thief (who assisted in fleecing the entire family for everything of value), and a Republican money manager ('nuff said).

Santa, Bunnies, Green Cheese, and Snipes were the most honest things they told about!

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

28. I'm one of those uncles!

:evilgrin:

[JuniperLea]

29. Scumbag!

:rofl:

[GoneOffShore]

4. To paraphrase Muldar - "The woo is out there."

And sometimes it's right here on DU.

:hide:

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. True, but it was like

this is an amazingly valuable conversation. Not only do I get to see this for real, but in the process of creating a new religion for fiction (I should be careful, or Dianetics comes to mind, created on a dare)... let's just say this guy clarified a lot of concepts for me...

[GoneOffShore]

24. Yes it is interesting - and useful for you.

As you say, magical thinking at it's best and, well I was going to say brightest, but that's not generally that word that comes to mind.

[KonaKane]

6. 'Magic" is a misused term - often to slur spirituality

Magic is sleight of hand. Theater tricks for entertainment. "Magick" is a spiritual term, basically the willful shift of consciousness to affect change (thank you Doreen Valiente).

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Magical Thinking is a social science term

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

Not a slur.

[KonaKane]

10. It is often used as a slur to undermine or demean a person's faith.

Which I'll say again, is not productive to anything in the end. There is an exception if the intent is Jungian, which describes the thought process of a growing number of spiritual people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. And I will repeat this mysef

I used this in the CLASSIC SOCIAL SCIENCE terminology. If that is insulting, I am sorry, since no insult is intended.

[Confusious]

41. Anything challenging "magical" or "magikal" thinking is going to be an insult. nt

[anigbrowl]

14. Doreen Valiente?

That definition and spelling originate with Aleister Crowley, from whom Gerald Gardner picked it up. Crowley's version was on paper before Valiente was even born.

[Ignis]

25. +1

No slight to Valiente, who made many other important contributions in this area, but Crowley's definitely the first on record for "magick."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Isn't "magick" just a way to say "magic" only allegedly cooler to hipsters?

Like "trekkers" is supposed to be superior over "trekkie." (which itself seems to be a preference of the masculine over the feminine, odd for people who want to live in an enlightened PC utopia of the future)

Or "vampyre" over "vampire" for the people who like to dress up and play vampire. Or "wiccan" for witches.

I don't know if the teens who like to pretend to be werewolves have a new name for themselves yet.

[JuniperLea]

30. Exactly right...

That's why you are a DUer and I'm a Deueirre...

:rofl:

[Confusious]

42. Hate trekkers

Like trekkie.

vampyre: I wanna be cool, and a y is cool.

Vampire: Your grandpas' vampyre

Wiccan is some sort of religion, another waste of time.

[Political_Junkie]

9. I've had this happen so many times.

I collect a lot of odd stuff including fossils. I don't know how many times I've bought a particularly interesting stone just to have the person behind the counter tell me about its magical powers. Wow, didn't know it could do all that. I just thought it was a pretty rock.

[pitohui]

27. i collect, used to buy & sell, but still collect

i've had some v. odd experiences but, for the most part, i try to talk rocks on the level of the person i'm talking to

some people are just looking for a magic fix, and when the stone or crystal or fossil only works a short while (placebo effect or whatever) or doesn't work, then they'll be on to the next hobby

some people actually get some interesting experiences working with stones for journeys, whatever, i could tell a few tales but since they're inexplicable, i won't waste the time, weirdness has to experienced, it can't be "told"

of course, many people are there for the visual beauty, the thought of holding something millions of years old that grew in the earth etc -- the science and wonder of it

you just have to identify the person you're talking with and talk to them on their level, what works best of all is to let THEM tell THEIR story, unless they specifically ask for advice, say, a guy tells me, "this stone such and such gave me has bad luck, what do i do?" was a question i got the other day... where another guy might ask, "got any gold scraps you wanna sell?" ...some of the odd stuff you collect when you collect rocks is actually stories and people, ha ha!

in younger days, from the time i was about 12 to my early 30s i was VERY interested in folklore and stories, and i would have loved to hear a tale such as you heard from the guy at the market

[JuniperLea]

32. I believe strongly in the placebo effect...

My grandfather, for example, worked in Greenland during WWII. While there, a native gave him a walrus tooth and told him it would keep him safe. He carried that tooth the rest of his life and swore it was his good luck charm. One day he went off to his shop without the tooth... he was so scared he sat himself down in his office and refused to leave until someone brought him the tooth. He was so shook up, I swear had he left that chair, he would have hurt himself.

Self-fullfilling... yep.

[JitterbugPerfume]

11. well anyway

It sounds like you got some cool stuff and an "interesting " conversation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Interesting to say the least

and quite not expected...

[LunaSea]

12. Michael Shermer speaks at TED about the neurochemical/evolutionary roots...

of Woo-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=247x29674

[zipplewrath]

15. Had a sister like that

Sister-in-law actually, now the EX sister in law. A conversation with her was always a challenge, because she'd make vague references to things that made little or no sense. "Einstein even said..." was a common preamble to something truly bizarre. I could rarely follow the thread of thought. But it was usually around some mystical phenomenon which only she understood. My favorite had something to do with how nuclear weapons weren't really all that dangerous because they only worked where there were certain "vortexes" and the ancient Native American tribes had "maps" of these vortexs. The government found out where they were because they "stole" one of the maps and that's why the Manhattan project was in Los Alamos because there was a vortex there. There was one in Hiroshima too, that's why they dropped it there. But there wasn't one east of the Mississippi...


And then there was some bizarre discussion about how NASA knew there were pyramids on the moon that looked just like the ones in Eygpt, that's why we went to the moon to find them. And they dug them up and found magic crystals that taught them how to make super computer "chips".....

[Political_Junkie]

20. LMAO

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. Never heard the one about the pyramids on the moon though.

[ikri]

16. About that Mayan calendar

They were quite good at maths & their calendar ends in 2012.

I'm also quite good at maths & my current calendar ends on 31st December 2010, should I be worried?

[JitterbugPerfume]

18. yes!

run away!:evilgrin:

[JuniperLea]

31. I always thought this was a Mel Brooks prank...

You know, like how there were originally 15 commandments, but Moses/Brooks dropped one of the tablets?

I think when the Mayan calendar was found, the gravel on the ground was the next edition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Or as one of the Elders once told m

annoyed that we white people made it wrong... like ours, resets. The long count will reset....

[Turbineguy]

19. And if

you unscrew your belly button, your ass will fall off.

[hvn_nbr_2]

21. "K-T line"?

What's that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. The Cretaceous (K)- Tertiary (T) boundary

Marking a large scale extinction event, notable for the final end of the dinosaurs, some 65 million years ago, probably due to a bolide.

[hvn_nbr_2]

23. Thanks. I was guessing it was a 2LA for something that I knew but...

wasn't able to find the acronymic connection. (2LA = 2-letter acronym, to distinguish from the more familar TLA three-letter acronym).

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93T_boundary

It is way too much iridium for starters.

[MattBaggins]

37. You're suprised by this?

Have you never head a late night job and had the fun of listening to Art Bell?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I have listenned to Art Bell,

and he wasn't that out there, and Nouri is just an ass...

[hunter]

39. Magical thinking and pseudo science can kill you too...

"Explosion at California water fuel research company kills inventor"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8597492&mesg_id=8597492

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. LOL