Now that Rachel is explaining the FUNGIBLE nature

[nadinbrzezinski]

of the oil bidness can the rest of you get it why a BOYCOTT won't work?

[polichick]

1. I hope this vid goes viral - most Americans have no idea how it works. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. And some of us TRIED hard to explain it

to the scorn of many. But since she is on the teve, perhaps they will believe her.

[polichick]

5. Do you know where to look for the video? We can make it go viral. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Once they post it at the Rachel Maddow show

[babylonsister]

2. Our vehicles wouldn't work either. nt

[gateley]

4. I'm recording it so am looking forward to watching. I always learn so much from her. nt

[Towlie]

6. If more people understood what she just said it could make all the difference in the world.

This really does need to get spread around to everyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. And I got a small model of that here in town

all our gas comes from a single distribution point. ALL OF IT... no matter who or what is selling it at the point of sale.

[TheKentuckian]

9. Agreed, but the more important message is that "drill here, drill now"

and using American oil is utter bullshit.

That's the key thing that lunkhead motherfuckers need to grasp. Ineffective boycotts are a comparative non-issue.

DOMESTIC PRODUCTION IS IRRELEVANT AND THE PRODUCT IS JUST AS LIKELY (IF NOT MORE SO) TO END UP IN CHINA AS IOWA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yep, we also tried to 'xplain that

but what we, just internet posters, know.

We need to move to a post oil civilization, I am not counting on that.

[TheKentuckian]

11. I hear ya. It would seem pretty obvious if the bullshit was discredited

Then if we could maintain focus long enough to explain true cost things and viewpoints would be on a very different track so fast that heads would spin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Well speaking of TRUE costs

I bought a hat the other day when we went hiking. Silly me, I LEFT MINE AT HOME. The hat was 10 bucks, round numbers, made in China. True cost, if we took into account environmental degradation, and energy cost, closer to 25. It is just heavily subsidized.

The Netbook I am using right now, close to 1000 bucks.

I could go on... but most of those costs are invisible to the average American...

[TheKentuckian]

13. You get it, gurl

[AnnieBW]

14. I wish that she'd spent more time on that

She needs expand that piece a bit, like she's done with the Gulf "cleanup". I consider myself to be an intelligent person, but I didn't know that oil drilled in American waters go onto the world market.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It's not something they publish

and don't feel bad, many of our politicos don't either. In fact, I'd not be too surprised if both McCain and Kerry didn't either. This is not common knowledge.

[ShamelessHussy]

25. you think our leaders don't know that basic detail about industrial nations life blood?

really?

you would have to be naive in the extreme to think our leaders are not acutely aware of ever aspect of the oil trade business.

they may not know much about how it gets harvested, or BOPs and such, but they are acutely aware of how it is distributed, and where it is.

it is literally what make the world go round, and vital for our super power status.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Having spoken to a few people in the Congress and the Senate

over the years... no I don't think so. A few of them are very aware of it... the President perhaps, but no, not really.

And yes, I have talked over the course of the years with one former President (who was very aware of it, some might say he was a visionary. And one of his frustrations was the ignorance, some might say willful ignorance, of the House and the Senate)... three US Senators and two House Members... as well as three State Reps, one for one state, the other two for another, and it is damn scary just how little they either chose to know or actually know.

[ShamelessHussy]

31. sorry, i am not buying it. this is what makes the world go round, we fight wars over it

maybe some freshman don't know, but our senior leaders certainly know.

remember when we went into iraq, what was the first thing we did, secure the oil.

they know what is going on, they just like to play dumb for teeVee (read US).

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. If they understood the true nature of it

they would not have to go fight over it.

I mean it don't matter if the oil is extracted by Mexico, Venezuela, Russia, Norway or the left handed widget. It all ends in the same place, the fungible world market.

And no, they are not freshmen... and the free clue as to what President I was talking about, Carter. He was the only one who truly got it, and was extremely frustrated with his Congress. Why? THEY DID NOT GET IT.

[ShamelessHussy]

33. sorry, but i think that is naive in the extreme

do you also not believe we are an empire with global reach?

the PTB of a global empire understand very clearly how important vital resources are, and will kill scores of people, and countries to control them.

our recent history demonstrates that very clearly, not to mention all of recorded history.

only those ignorant of empires and their history would believe otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. What that our leaders are naive in the extreme on a few subjects?

We are a world empire, in decline. That does not mean that every jack tom and harry in Congress gets the last details of how you run that empire or why it runs. Hell you think Roman Senators understood the importance of Salt or why the Legions marched on new salt deposits for the glory of Rome? Pick up some Seneca for example, and you will find out that no, they did not. Just like our people do not know the last infinite detail of how the empire works.

Now the people in charge of the Legions did, just as the Department of Defense (and not all in DOD, just the people in planning and logistics, who get it to infinite detail) does today.

Hell if you asked the average Imperial Officer in the Legajo de Indias about the details of any of the Colonies in the New World, they KNEW silver came from the mines, but the details of extraction, no, not really.

If you asked the average MP how the colonies ran in the New World, they had no clue... now the Prime Minister did. And for that matter, King George III could have avoided that little soiree called the American Revolution if he got the real reason for the conflict, which he never did...

Just because somebody is a big shot in Congress don't necessarily mean they know the last detail of EVERYTHING they deal with. As one Senator put it to me, that's what we have RESEARCH STAFF. They don't have time to read every fucking briefing they should be readying, or for that matter every Bill that comes before them. And to think that they are masters of all is actually quite naive on your part. Oh and that Senator was, and still is the ranking member of a few Committees.


By the way, I will gladly compare history degrees.

BA in History, with a minor in Poli Sci
Masters in History

And after readying quite a bit into the history of Empires, no, not the myths, the real stuff. I have come to the realization that a few individuals have command of the essential stuff but not all of those involved in Government.

[ShamelessHussy]

36. no. i am saying that only the naive, or ignorant, would believe that...

our senior leaders in the senate are ignorant about THE vital resource of our time

and i am not talking about 'all' the details (as i've said before) i am talking about the big picture, in particular, the trading and whereabouts of that vital resource, and the role it plays in our empire.

since you are well versed in history, i will assume that you are naive then to think otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. They get the big picture

but how fungible oil is in the world market is not big picture. big picture is where wells are, where threats to them come. How the oil gets from a well, to your local refinery is the equivalent of asking a member of the Legajo de Indias to explain to you, how silver reached Cadiz. As far as they were concerned, which is the same level as our people... well shit, silver goes to the mint in Lima or Mexico City... oil goes from the rig to the shore by pipe or ship. Then silver is loaded onto a Carabelle, oil is loaded on a tanker... and it arrives at Cadiz where it goes to the Royal Distribution at Madrid at El Real, oil goes down to the refinery and from there to your car. Yes there are major pieces of the process missing.

Neither of these two groups got the fine details... which in this case is... you have a world market and it don't matter where you extract the damn thing, it still goes into a world market controlled by five to seven major companies.

That is not big picture but part of the boring details that hopefully this disaster in the Gulf is teaching them. The other boring detail I hope, but cannot count on, that this is teaching them is that we NEED TO GET OFF OIL.

[ShamelessHussy]

39. which would include the oil market. where it comes from, where it goes, and the security required to

keep it functioning, as well as an understanding as to how VITAL it is to our role of global empire.

Senior members of the senate fully understand that oil is traded on a global market, with the operational security maintained and ensured by US.

that is my only point.

the general public may be just waking up to this fact, however TPTB, understand it very well, as they created it, and maintain it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You don't get it, and that's ok

our senior members in the House and the Senate are quite ignorant of how the boring details work.

If you need to believe they KNOW all this stuff, more power to you, but they don't. There are some conversations we have had with ranking members that I suspect would make your head explode. Suffice it to say, we ARE like any other Empire, where the cogs in the machine, and even leaders of government, DO NOT know the boring details... we are not special, or exceptional, and once the American Empire goes away (that is coming in my lifetime, and it will be quite "sudden") and historians are able to look under the hood... then and ONLY THEN will people realize just how average these people are, and how ignorant of things you think they know, they are.

Oh and this has nothing to do with party either.

Now if you want to know WHO are the people who actually get it? Or at least much better, see that research staff... but that is THEIR JOB. why these days I'd rather speak to that staff than members... and yes, I have had those conversations... No, I am not special, I am just a bothersome constituent that could and should send the staff Christmas Gifts. Perhaps this year I'll send them a card to the office. Gifts are kind of a no-no... but I guess I can get away with a card.

[ShamelessHussy]

52. Sure, they don't get that oil is sold in a global market place, with prices set by the market

Pandering to our ignorance is what they do best.

Think about it...

[AnnieBW]

51. Carter was an engineer

and a very smart man. I would imagine that he had to learn that stuff in a hurry when the Oil Crisis happened. And, in the late 1970's, I'm sure that "energy independence" was a good idea. Unfortunately, the global dependence on oil, and the commodities-buying system has grown significantly since then. But, it still makes a good slogan.

Personally, I agree with Obama that we need to move to a smart grid with at least 50% of electricity coming from solar, wind, or other, renewable means.

[newspeak]

44. remember Iraqi oil was nationalized

our taxpayer money, our lives, was to make damn sure that the oil corporations could get it--nothing more. It does not benefit "we the people", it benefits greedy oil companies. Just like United Fruit crying to Uncle Sam because a newly elected leader would need to take back some of the land for their people and up taxes on the company. You do remember those death squads? And, it wasn't to stop those damn communists.

Our money, our blood is wasted to aid corporations-corporations to steal resources or turn profits for war profiteering. "Little Boots" privatizes services in the military and allows companies like Blackwater carte blanche in Iraq and Afghanistan--our soldiers wind up suffering from tainted water and poor services and civilians are killed by mercenaries. While, those corporations charge us billions of dollars-when the government could have done it cheaper and better. I mean, if you're a soldier cook-you're going to eat the food like all of the other soldiers-instead of have shite served and being charged outrageous prices for other services. And don't forget the "slave workers", some who were forced from other countries, to work for these war profiteering corporations?

No, General Smedley Butler was right--"war IS a racket."

[Mimosa]

48. ^ Exact. Best post on DU in days! ^ n/t

[treestar]

15. Oh once Fake President Rachel says something

It must be true. :sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Actually this is true

go on, kill the messenger.

[Cleita]

20. LOL!

:rofl:

Tell the truth!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Some folks have problems with it

what galls me is that some of us DU'ers have been trying to explain this as well since the accident happened, and why a boycott against BP would be at best an accounting error. Not that this was a popular message and I guess for some folks this message goes against their way to see the world... which is very simplistic. If we boycott Coldstone Creamery and it works, why shouldn't it work with BP? For starters the economies of scale at play here.

[Mimosa]

49. I get tired of Rachel worship too

She seldom says anything most of us don't already know. The worship must come because people think somebody who cogently expresses what they already believe must be a genius.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. This is not Rachel worship

And if you believe MOST Americans know this little detail, you are quite ignorant of the true nature of the knowledge Americans have. If they knew this, then the ENERGY INDEPENDENCE canard would not work like it does, now would it?

And sometimes, which is a sad fact of life, you need a talking head saying the same things anonymous internet poster have been saying for those facts to finally register.

She made a critical observation WELL BEFORE she entered your consciousness, you know back in the early days of Air America... if it did not happen in TV, well it did not happen. That was a brilliant observation on the nature of the American people and we have seen this happen here over and over again.

And like it or not she is brilliant in her own way... and people LISTEN to her.

[Ilsa]

16. I only saw the last ten minutes. She's awesome at explaining

these big topics in ways anyone can understand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Yes that she is

but some folks really have a problem with the message. She is a policy wonk... and it shows, in a good way.

[Cleita]

19. I can still boycott a bit. It won't matter, but it does to my conscience.

I went an extra mile last week to buy Hugo Chavez's gas for a penny more a gallon. He hasn't pissed me off. I'm plotting to get off gas altogether.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Good luck in getting off gas altogether

you plan to stop using computers? Or more basically, you plan to stop eating?

That said if this makes you feel better, by all means. Our minds are important as well.

[Cleita]

24. Don't be silly. I know I can't afford to do those things, but every tiny

bit has to help.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Actually we all need to get off oil

just that the changes in our life style sum up in one sentence... "The American Way of Life is OVER."

No President will be able to say this and survive. This is what is so damn maddening.

[ShamelessHussy]

29. yes, and if many folks did just that, it may actually lead to alternative sources of energy

just what we need, so you go girl :toast:

[Uzybone]

27. Fake president Rachel talks and DU creams its pants

real Rachel talks about the uselessness of a BP only boycott and ....

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. They don't want to hear it

and Rachel is late to the party. A few of us on DU have spoken at length about it, as well as Hartmann who did go into it in detail as well. Now when one person says it, ok... but when a few start speaking about this, I would expect (not really any more) that people would at least try to use the google. This is not well known info, but it is out there in the interwebs.

[dorkulon]

34. I suppose one could still boycott oil altogether.

But I wouldn't envy them.

[krispos42]

38. So, oil is like a mushroom?

:rofl:

[PufPuf23]

40. Wall Street and academia has taken me seriously about paper pulp

in a past life.

Yes oil is fungible and the leading producers are international corporations.

Still there is no excuse for exporting environmental damage.

[Greyhound]

41. Are the retail outlets corporate or franchise?

If BP owns them, then yes a boycott will still hurt.

[fishwax]

42. They're almost all franchises, but pay 10%+ of gross revenues to BP

in addition to paying BP for the gas, wherever it comes from.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. If you manage to have an effect

it will be more like an accounting error.

See there is this thing called economies of scales.

Their bidness is less than 5% world wide, at the retail level. Good luck having an effect anybody will notice at that level. I mean, their quarterly income is ... larger than the national GNP of a few countries.

[newspeak]

43. For years politicians have used "we have to be oil independent" as a meme

in their campaigns. See, we wouldn't have to depend on the ME, if we were only independent. Too bad, many people in this country don't know that the oil, drilled and refined by American and foreign business entities, all goes to the market. Coincidently, I had an opinion poll call the other night, where I was asked if our country should become more independent from foreign oil. I laughed and told her, how are we going to do that without new innovative alternative energy, since the oil companies are the ones dictating policy? We don't own our own oil--our government sells the leases to our land to their best friends or the highest bidder (some of those mining and oil leases are pretty damned cheap).

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I am almost looking fowards to THAT POLL

Teachable moment and all.