Is a college degree still worth it? Vast majority of job gains going to high school grad or less

[Liberal_in_LA]

Is a college degree still worth it?

As U.S. employment patterns evolve, a diploma is no longer a guarantee of a better job and higher pay.

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After spending tens of thousands of dollars on higher education, often taking on huge debts along the way, many face a job market that doesn't seem to need them. Not only is the American economy producing few new jobs of any kind, but the ones that are being added are overwhelmingly on the lower end of the skill and pay scale.

In fact, government surveys indicate that the vast majority of job gains this year have gone to workers with only a high school education or less, casting some doubt on one of the nation's most deeply held convictions: that a college education is the ticket to the American Dream.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that seven of the 10 employment sectors that will see the largest gains over the next decade won't require much more than some on-the-job training. These include home healthcare aides, customer service representatives and food preparers and servers. Meanwhile, well-paying white-collar jobs such as computer programming have become vulnerable to outsourcing to foreign countries.

"People with bachelor's degrees will increasingly get not very highly satisfactory jobs," said W. Norton Grubb, a professor at UC Berkeley's School of Education. "In that sense, people are getting more schooling than jobs are available."

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But there's still a lot of angst. Kyle Daley, 23, of Walnut Creek, Calif., graduated from UCLA a year ago with a bachelor's in political science and is still looking for a job. Recently he put his resume into an old wine bottle and threw it into the Pacific Ocean.

"I'm trying to try every avenue I can," Daley said.

No one is arguing that higher education isn't beneficial. Even now, the unemployment rate for college graduates stands at 4.7% — less than half of the figure for workers with only a high school diploma.

Also, federal statistics for 2008 show that men 25 and older with a bachelor's degree pulled down a median salary of $65,800. That compares with a median of $39,010 for men in the same age group who had completed only high school. Earnings for women were broadly smaller, although the pay gap by education was similar in percentage terms to that of male workers.

"In my mind, the data is overwhelmingly clear: The B.A. is worthwhile," said Stephen Rose, a labor economist and research professor at Georgetown University.

What's not as clear as it used to be is whether pursuing higher education will continue to guarantee a substantially more affluent and secure life. Higher degrees today don't always bring higher earnings.

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Increasingly, the job market has become polarized, with the fastest-growing occupations on either the low end or the high end, often for positions that require more education than a bachelor's degree.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jobs-educate-20100612,0,1944150.story

[left coaster]

1. On a related note.. Wal-Mart is hiring.. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. Premised on..

..only one definition of 'worth it'....

[SmileyRose]

3. Back in the 1980's

when HS grads were screaming about moving decent paying jobs out of the country even the Democrats told us all to grab our bootstraps and head for college - and so pretty soon every kid "deserved" a college degree.

Well the world never changed. The vast majority of jobs are still low paying jobs. the underlying problem was never solved. Until

Americans start insisting on

Products made in America by American workers in companies owned by Americans
Call centers in America manned by Americans
Service jobs performed by Americans
government required to hire American contractors that hire Americans


--------- as long as Americans are patronizing places that sell low priced products and services by overseas extremely low cost labor this will continue. America bought the outsourcing meme on the grounds it maximized the profits that fueled our 401Ks and pension funds. Now we see they'll figure out a way to take that money from us (which the survivors of the Great Depression already told us)

College education for all is not the answer. Ending the race to the bottom on wages is the answer..........

[Jkid]

40. Because Americans don't speak up.

If they did speak up, their 'representatives' would not listen unless they give them a large 'donation'. Great majority of Americans are busy with actually trying to live instead of changing the conditions they are in.

[Book Lover]

4. How about we decouple the meme that you go to college to make more money

and go back to you go to college to learn how to think and be exposed to foundational ideas in our and others' cultures? You know, get an education? Terribly old-fashioned, I know, but hey, let's give it a try.

[frazzled]

5. You beat me to that ...

College is not about job training.

[MineralMan]

6. Absolutely. It's about Football!!!

Go Big Red! :rofl:

[SmileyRose]

12. Having the degree has always been about earning potential.

Being a well rounded, open and engaged human being has absolutely nothing to do with having a college degree.

College may or may not provide that to someone - it would depend on whether or not that someone is open to it to begin with. And if they are, they will find it with or without college.

[Book Lover]

16. Sure...if your worldview only goes back about 20 years

And by worldview, I mean something much more unkind.

[exboyfil]

23. You can afford to be a dilettante

if your parents are rich or society pays the freight for you to be self actualized (tens of thousands of dollars of student loans with no hope of ever paying them back). For the rest of us whose fathers worked in the factory, we knew we had one shot to escape the same fate - a college education which translated into dollars (science, engineering, business, law, nursing, medicine, education etc).

My dad was smarter than me, and he went into the factory because he had no other alternative growing up in West Virginia in the 1950s. He did not want the same fate for me so he pushed me in my education throughout. I do the same with my girls.

I am not sure when a egalitarian golden age existed in which we had wide acess by everyone to an additional four years of education pursuing whatever suits your fancy without a recognition that you are going to be called upon to fill some societal role with you work. Such a golden age does not exist in the more liberal democracies of Europe as most students are slated early on for their college prospects.

[Book Lover]

33. It was not that long ago at all

When I went to a CUNY school in the mid-80's, tuition was cheaper than my Catholic high school's. It took me 5 years to get my BA, paid for by myself and no one else. The education I got doesn't have to be a fantasy, or the product of a Golden Age.

[SmileyRose]

35. And you worked that hard for that long with that much expense expecting NO economic payoff?

I'm sorry but I don't believe for one second you put yourself through college ONLY for the joy of the education. If I'm wrong, and you fully expected to earn no more than if you only had HS and have worked in those kinds of jobs all your life then I must say you are a rarity in the most extreme.

[Book Lover]

36. I certainly didn;t expect to get any payoff from my Astronomy, Genetics, or Latin classes

Yet I took them and did my best to learn the content because I wanted to know about these fields of study. I looked at my time in school as more than taking training, which is what I think you are saying you see college as.

[SmileyRose]

37. NO

College can certainly expose someone to all sorts of new things (and should). But to expect people to spend 10's of 1000's of dollars for the degree merely for the joy of learning is unrealistic. The sole and only PURPOSE of the DEGREE is economics and it always was.

I can take Astronomy and Genetics or Latin classes as an audit student for the sheer joy of the education but there's no degree at the end. In fact, I can study these things without even paying the college a single dime. A good education never did require a formal college degree. People who never set foot on a college campus can just as easily pursue education in a variety of ways and enjoy the knowledge and process just as much. There's not only one path.

[Book Lover]

39. My problem with what you're saying is the sheer absoluteness of it

Only, always, for absolutely everyone. It's just not realistic, or accurate.

[SmileyRose]

41. And yet

You cannot tell me that even for you fighting for the degree had nothing to do with the economic gain expected and was ONLY about the experience of the education itself.

[Book Lover]

45. First of all, I didn't fight

Yes, it took me five instead of four years, but it was not a struggle or a fight. It's not a battle every time.

Second, here I am telling you now: I went to college because I was expected to go and because I wanted to go. My employment goals (publishing) were secondary. Maybe this is a cultural difference between us, I don't know. My point is just that it's not all about the money, and it ought not to be. IMHO.

[MadHound]

7. The thing is, going to college isn't just about getting a better job

That's actually a relatively new outlook. College has traditionally been a place to enlighten one's self, to educate yourself about the wider world.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. But historically only for the well heeled few

What you describe was only available for large numbers of people in the US for a fairly brief window starting in the late 60s.

[riderinthestorm]

38. In fact, imho college has historically been used to teach "thinking" skills

that translated into jobs for virtually anyone who got a degree.

An educated populace is necessary for a functioning democracy.

Those students who study history, philosophy, literature, arts etc (the non-technical degrees) are an integral part of our society. These are oftentimes the people who ensure there ARE two (or three or four or more) sides to every argument which is vital for a healthy discourse.

It seems to me that college is becoming more and more about learning a trade or a skill like business administration, computer graphics, etc. While I think those kinds of tech oriented degrees are excellent, denigrating those who pursue the non-tech stuff without any idea where that degree may land them (write a book? become a non-profit director? community organizer? heh!) is not only unfair but historically inaccurate.

College has historically been a place for the wealthy because it was in itself a virtually closed community that only allowed in the privileged. So the idea of making money as the ultimate goal for a college degree never came up.

Now it is. And that's a fine discussion to have. What purpose will higher education serve in the future? What purpose should it serve? If we want an educated populace, should we be doing more to ensure that goal, and what does that mean in regards to who pays for that? Keep in mind that in virtually every other industrialized country, higher ed is free or greatly subsidized to ensure their populations ARE educated. The US charges for college are exorbitant so any discussion on a students' responsibilities in regards to ROI should also include a discussion on what society's ROI should also be imho.

I'm sure though that there are many, many people who go to college to simply learn, to become a better thinker, without regard to what their job/money prospects may be afterward. I was one of them. I had no idea what I would do when I graduated with a history degree. I got a job at a women's shelter which morphed into non-profit grantwriting focused particularly on women's issues. Did it pay well? No. Was I thrilled and excited to do that work? Absolutely. But that was decades ago when college wasn't so incredibly burdensome. I paid for it all myself by working and taking out loans - which I managed to pay back even working at the women's shelter. Today's kids could never do that. Their loan burden is typically exorbitant.

But someone has to man the rape crisis hotline. Someone has to be there to welcome the beaten family at the shelter door. Someone has to have the smarts to write the grants, draft the proposals, compel interest in the cause etc. etc. And that person is frequently a liberal arts grad.

There's a place for us. And having us educated benefits ALL of us.

[CTyankee]

8. As I look around, I see how some people w/o degrees prosper:

they start a small company that provides a service that people need and they work their asses off in their young years to get the business going.
Plumbing, heating, roofing, general home repair come into mind. Have a family where family members can pitch in at low cost to you.

If you get a degree, get it in accounting. People who can work with numbers and formulate budgets and keep the books are always needed.

Find a niche for yourself and expand it slowly if it works for you. STay away from the trendy stuff. Put in the effort for the long term.

Either that or go to the opposite end of the spectrum and become an "expert" in some field, get all your degrees and become a tenured college professor.

[Greyhound]

9. I wish Don Lee weren't so freaking lazy.

He consistently writes half a story, most commonly regurgitating whatever he is told with no investigation. When did journalist and stenographer become synonymous?
:kick: & R

ETA; Perhaps it should be called the Fox Effect.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Some degrees have significant ROI, others clearly do not

Life is not just about ROI, but if that is a driver, stick to the techie stuff.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bitwit1234]

11. You are correct all the engineer, dot.com, and those type of

jobs are going overseas. All that is left is the service and construction jobs. And if the corporations could send them overseas they would go also. I don't understand why they don't pass a law that will prevent more of these type of jobs from leaving. OR if they do triple the tariff on the products they send back.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. I find that an interesting observation when all of the graduating students I advised have jobs

in the techie field.

[readmoreoften]

17. Unfortunately, the graduating tech students I teach can't form a sentence or

write a cover letter. But--hey--who needs English, Communications, or basic informal logic courses. (Oh, it's not just the tech and science students who can't write a paragraph--it's Ed. and Finance majors as well.)

[exboyfil]

21. At Purdue in the 1980s

the engineers did better than the Humanities/Social Studies students in the Humanities/Social Studies classes. I remember a Junior level Communications course (Principles of Persuasion) which I took as a Freshman. I had the third highest grade out of about 80 students. Those above me and below me were all engineers. This 300 level course was a requirement for the Communications majors.
The highest performers in my other Humanities/Social Studies courses were also engineers.

Both my girls are considering science fields, and I guarantee you they will be able to write well (no thanks to our Junior High in which my oldest has had the same athletic coach as a teacher for the last two years).

Best advice I can give is to go into a quantitative field in an area in which you enjoy, but also participate/work on the soft skills such as writing and communication.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Your interdisplinary sniping is disappointing

I have always supported that college is more than a trade school and the humanities, liberal arts, fine arts, music, foreign languages, etc are all important and important parts of a good college education. Any educator would. If things are as you say at your campus, then your institution should take a hard look at its course structure.

IIRC the overall employment rate is above 90% overall for new grads. Clearly some majors will be making more than others, but that was clear when this class started and college majors are life choices that every student gets to make.

One of the things that bothers me is the decline in women in some of the technical majors and I am far from alone in that.

[defendandprotect]

20. Elites want to "harvest slave labor" ... and there's little resistance from Dems ... Clinton pushed

trade agreements!! And, Obama isn't overturning them nor amending them!

[Hubert Flottz]

15. They give them away here in West Virginia if you know the right people.

[KonaKane]

18. A sheepskin doesn't guarantee you a good living anymore.

It used to, and that is why my parents (back when I was growing up, late 60s into the early 70s) were so insistent on a college education.

I still recommend a good liberal university education for one's own good and enlightenment. But don't rely on that anymore for a ticket to a good living after graduation. Sorry, but that time is over.

[defendandprotect]

19. IMO . . . no. And where higher education has been worth more in pay envelope . . .

corporations will be seeing to it that those "over educated" will be being removed --

i.e., teachers, for one!

The piece of paper, however, will still be a sign of privilege for the few who will be

able to afford it.

Realistically, four years in the working world may be the equivalent, but again ....

it's also about elite symbols.

[tritsofme]

22. In the long run, people will find in many of these jobs that advancement beyond a certain point

becomes dependent on having a degree.

I think that over time, having the degree will provide a great benefit, even if it is not apparent immediately.

[JCMach1]

24. Stupid article! from their own stuff, "unemployment rate for college graduates stands at 4.7%..."

[Taitertots]

25. College graduates averages $20,000 more per year and have lower unemployment rate

As long as you don't get a degree in underwater basket weaving then you are better off.

[drlindaphd]

26. It all depends on the job

If you only look at the bottom line, a college degree might not be the only ticket to a higher income. However, I believe you can stack the deck with one. There are also many professions where you can't even get your foot in the door without one. Some, like mine require a master's degree, at minimum.

The mistake is, that everyone does not require a college degree. there are lots of ways to make a ton of money without a college degree.

As far as I am concerned, what really scares me is that a college education teaches people how to think. If people are not taught to think they end up letting others think for them and we end up with "ditto" heads and tea parties. I have had people tell me, to my face, that they are grateful that they do not have to think for themselves. Now that is scary. They cannot do it. They need Rush or Beck to do it for them. Of course a college degree is no guarantee. A person can spend 4 years going to class and not learn a thing. They can go to college and come away with nothing but the ability to parrot what they read in a book. That is not thinking. And there are people who learn to think without ever setting foot in a college classroom.

I firmly believe that an uneducated populace leads to tyranny. Just take a look around at the current climate in this country. The antieducation crowd is getting stronger and that scares me.

[Igel]

27. I despise this kind of article.

It tells no lies but is utterly false because the selection of facts leads to bad conclusions.

[CBR]

28. I will start encouraging everyone to drop out. nt

[SoCalDem]

31. The "service economy" scheme is ALL about driving wages DOWN

and the elimination of "good" jobs. $8 hr jobs making appointments at chain hair salons, or $9 cashier jobs at Walmart do NOT require a college degree.

College educations have always had stratifications. Back when I was in college, there were very different "tracks":

education/social sciences translated into relatively low paid jobs (to start with) , as teachers and/or social workers

the next higher pay levels went to engineering/scientific studies...like geologists, researchers, architectural jobs etc.

business school was not a big moneymaker then, unless one was training to take over a family business or to improve on it.

law school was higher on the list, but it took longer & cost more, so usually the wealthier kids pursued that avenue, and had jobs waiting for them through nepotism

medical school was the Big Kahuna, and only the richest even bothered..

For a while now, too many young folks have been paying a LOT for a fairly mediocre return on their "investment". and even if they do land a job, they cannot rest because it's probably not "permanent"..

[closeupready]

32. It's worth it if you are a college hack or part of the student lending machinery.

n/t

[HopeHoops]

34. As are the salaries. 8 fucking bucks an hour? Shit.

Thank you George W. Asshole Bush.

[onenote]

42. the vast majority of Americans don't graduate from college

While I haven't seen the latest statistics, a few years ago it was reported that around 80 percent of Americans finish high school. Only around 15 percent graduate college. So the fact that a majority of jobs are going to high school education or less is something of a "sun comes up in the east and sets in the west story.

But, hey, if it fits someone's agenda to make a story out of something that isn't a story....

[howard112211]

43. A bachelor's degree?

Since when is that much more than a high-school diploma?



:evilgrin:

[jp11]

44. A good start but I think some things were overlooked in the article.

I think a degree in the past almost 'guaranteed' a better life/job because not everyone had one, scarcity, someone who went to college and graduated was looked at as a better candidate than one who didn't more promise, ambition etc, as more people got degrees this became less of a selling point and of course not all degrees are 'equal' for every job. You can't expect a degree in political science to help you get a job in any field it doesn't really apply to, employers can pick and choose their pool of graduates and hell why not pick the ones who got some job experience interning or working while they were in school, the ones who got some sort of certification, the ones who got a 3.5gpa and so on.

If graduates thought about what the jobs and field their degree would open up for them they could and probably can get a job in that field, they might have to relocate though. Jobs should exist for people who did research on the future of their field and didn't take a gamble on a small niche field or see a bleak outlook. If a graduate didn't look ahead and simply got a degree because they thought degree equals a good job and maybe picked something that interested them or that they thought wouldn't be too hard, but wasn't really marketable i.e. many liberal arts degrees, they are having a harder time finding a job.

When I was in high school mid 90's our guidance counselor had information on various career fields with future outlook etc from the government, even if a high school didn't have that available in the last 10 years, at college, a student could have looked into what careers their degree would open up for them and how that future might look with expected growth, needed skills, and the possibility of needing more education. When I see stories like this my presumption is the people being talked about are mostly holding degrees that aren't really marketable i.e. liberal arts or other 'niche' degree which says to me they either picked something because they thought it was easy to get or just liked that field without any care for what job prospects would be there for them.

Sociologists and political scientists held about 9,000 jobs in 2008, of which 4,900 were held by sociologists. Most sociologists worked as researchers, administrators, and counselors for a wide range of employers. The industries that employed the largest number of sociologists in 2008 were scientific research and development services, social advocacy organizations, and State and local government, excluding education and hospitals.

Political scientists held about 4,100 jobs in 2008. About 63 percent worked for the Federal Government. Most of the remainder worked in scientific research and development services and religious, grantmaking, civic, professional, and similar organizations.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos314.htm

The man featured in this article is looking at a pool of specific jobs numbering around 4000 specifically for Poly-sci and 14000 as a political science teacher probably needing a masters or PHD to be competitive. There are numerous other jobs that simply want a degree to prove an applicant is willing to put forth an 'effort' or can finish what they start but those probably tend towards marketing/sales, management and some others at an entry level. Compare those numbers to a more 'robust' field like say accounting;

Accountants and auditors held about 1.3 million jobs in 2008. They worked throughout private industry and government, but 24 percent of accountants and auditors worked for accounting, tax preparation, bookkeeping, and payroll services firms. Approximately 8 percent of accountants and auditors were self-employed.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm#emply

If the goal is for someone to goto college to get a job then you play the numbers at look at the outlook and number of jobs that exist, you don't pick what is fun/easy/or satisfies an interest. You can get those degrees fun/interesting/niche but they most often will be harder fields to gain employment in and you likely have to go beyond a Bachelors degree. That is a fact of employment, some fields are more in demand and have both better growth others are harder to get into or require more education to do so.

The article got pretty much the rest right in regards to outsourcing and competition among job seekers, but leaving out how jobs in general have become less favorable for workers over the years not simply because there is more competition but because companies have been offering less to applicants as they cut jobs, send them overseas, or import workers. The result has been more people goto college, often end up being in debt, take whatever they can get due to competition or dire need, giving corporations a large supply of desperate workers to take advantage of with no end in the immediate future.