Marine Techie: END Gulf Oil Spill With ‘ Mother of All BOMBS ’

[Segami]

:wow:



The Marine Corps’ most (in)famous technologist has a solution for the Gulf oil spill: Blow the crap out of it, with the Mother of All Bombs.


Over the past decade, no one in the Corps has been more creative, more persistent and more migraine-inducing in his pursuit of warfighting gadgetry than Franz Gayl. Some of his ideas were rock-solid, like small spy drones and bomb-resistant trucks. Eventually, the Pentagon bought tens of thousands of the trucks, due in large part to his agitating and whistleblowing efforts.


Other concepts of his were more fringe: oribiting troop transports, super-strength exoskeletons, laser guns that could roast insurgents alive.


Now Gayl, a civilian scientist (semi-) employed by Quantico, may have come up with his most dramatic idea yet: Use a 21,000-pound megamunition to generate a king-sized shock wave that would force those leaking pipes on the seabed shut.


Deploying the GBU-43 MOAB — known as the “Massive Ordnance Air Burst” or “Mother of All Bombs” — would be “proven, safe and ‘green,’” Gayl tells our pal David Axe, of War Is Boring. The bomb consumes all its own fuel, after all. And it’s not a nuclear weapon, like the one the Russians allegedly used to shut down out-of-control wells. If there are no MOABs to be had, Gayl adds, a Vietnam-era Daisy Cutter will do just fine.



" Either one … can be enclosed in a simple pressure shell, that is augmented with several tons of liquid oxygen canisters, and lowered to just a few meters above the leaking well head. An oxygen-enhanced MOAB or Daisy Cutter detonated at a water depth of 5,000 feet will indeed have an interesting effect on all the well-related plumbing and equipment that is above, at, and slightly below the sea floor…. The exploding MOAB or Daisy Cutter would have an incredible implosive-sealing effect on oil plumbing within the immediate vicinity of the detonation. "



Gayl’s active, active mind hasn’t stopped looking for ways to bring technology to bear to solve the most intractable problems. Nor does he limit himself by exploring the implications of those solutions. For instance: what would happen if the Mother of All Bombs went off-target at the bottom of the Gulf?



<http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/06/marine-techie-end-the-oil-spill-with-the-mother-of-all-bombs/>

[Ozymanithrax]

1. We should remember that the structure of pipes and concrete beneath...

the surface are damaged, and just plugging the well will cause it to leak into the rock formations around it. Those leaks will follow natural fissures in the rock and pop up anywhere, continue to leak. Such a dispersed zone of leakage would make catching any of the leaking oil impossible.

The only solution is to drill a relief well and to capture as much of the leaking oil as possible.

[MineralMan]

4. But...but...your solution will take a long,.long time, and we

insist that it be fixed AT ONCE! If not, we won't vote in November for Democrats and we'll stamp our feet really, really hard.

[Ozymanithrax]

6. Instant Gratification Isn't...

:evilgrin:

[MineralMan]

9. Quite!

[Confusious]

15. Only when it threatens to kill pretty much everything in the gulf.

Or hadn't you noticed the dead birds, fish or dolphins.

I can link to pictures if you like.

In this case, your snark is massively misplaced. It seems a little callus even.

[MineralMan]

21. No, actually, I'm fully aware of everything that is going on in

the GOM. I've been following every step of the disaster, since the first day.

It is a disaster. But, apparently, many people don't actually appear to have an understanding of the situation. They don't understand the physical conditions that maintain at the site of the disaster. I blame BP for causing this, and want them held entirely responsible for it.

My snark is based on uninformed people who don't understand what is required to stop the flow of oil from the damaged wellhead. The amount of nonsense that has been promulgated here and elsewhere exceeds anything I've ever seen. And now we have some moron who wants to put a MOAB down there and explode it. In the first place, the MOAB would be utterly crushed before it ever got to the bottom. In the second place, exploding it there would do nothing but wipe out any possibility of even partial containment of the flow.

There is no instant solution that will stop the flow of oil. Right now, some of it is being captured, and that's a good thing. That's better than it was not very long ago. However, it doesn't appear that there is any mechanism that will completely cut off the flow, save the relief wells and pumping mud down to seal the broken well and the surrounding fractures that are feeding it. That will still take some time.

Is it frustrating? Yes. Will dumb ideas and hand-waving change the realities of what is going on? No.

This military guy hasn't a clue. But, he's blabbing away and people who also don't have a clue are listening to him as if he knew what he was talking about. He does not.

So, I sometimes snark at the ignorance and unwillingness to look at the situation from a realistic point of view I see displayed here so often. I'm interested in solving this problem. Right now, efforts need to be focused on the oil that has already escaped. That's something that can be done.

Do not mistake my impatience with stupid, uninformed ideas that have no chance of success with a lack of concern.

[Confusious]

24. One thing

In the first place, the MOAB would be utterly crushed before it ever got to the bottom.

The titanic was located in 2.5 miles of water. We could get it down there, it's just there would be problems drilling a hole large enough for it to fit.

While the MOAB might be a little large, it seems ridiculous to rule any plan out, no matter how crazy sounding.

[MineralMan]

29. The titanic was not a sealed vessel containing explosives.

Pressures equalized as it sank. Sealed compartments on the Titanic were crushed. Again, you do not understand the physics of this at all. Without that understanding, you cannot think about this in any way that makes any sense. The MOAB was built to be dropped from a plane and exploded before it hit the ground. It never experienced any high pressure environment at any time.

You can look up MOAB on the web, and find out how it is made. You can look up deep sea operations on the internet, and educate yourself about that environment. If you want to learn, you will do so. If not, you'll continue to operate with insufficient information to make any sense at all.

[Confusious]

32. We took pictures of the titanic didn't we

Cameron got down there and saw it. That wasn't a computer generated fantasy.

You can look up MOAB on the web, and find out how it is made. You can look up deep sea operations on the internet, and educate yourself about that environment. If you want to learn, you will do so. If not, you'll continue to operate with insufficient information to make any sense at all.

Yes, you've proven so far that you are SO much more knowledgeable about it, and since I ask questions, and rule nothing out, know nothing.

[MineralMan]

34. Yes. We're taking videos of the BOP at this well, too.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[Confusious]

37. Of course you don't. nt

[Nihil]

54. Just a quick "thank you" for your patience ...

> But, apparently, many people don't actually appear to have an understanding
> of the situation. They don't understand the physical conditions that maintain
> at the site of the disaster.

I find it incredibly frustrating how many people (plenty of examples on this
thread alone) are simply incapable of recognising the issues involved here.

Thank you for showing far more patience than I manage.
:toast:

[MineralMan]

58. Thanks for the support.

I try. Sometimes, though, I do lose patience with those who could learn but will not.

[arcadian]

74. agreed

[Segami]

7. I agree. A carefull, common sense strategy solution like drilling a relief well is the way to go

IMO. Its clearly NOT the most expedient well plugging solution but it is probably the safest alternative next to using MOAB's. Nobody really knows what unforeseen catastrophe could be unleashed by detonating a MOAB.

[Ozymanithrax]

11. You can't plug the well because it will just leak out deeper undergound...

and following natural fissures to leak into the ocean somewhere else, or more likely many somewhere elses (yea, that sentence stinks).

Only by removing the pressure from the bottom will they be able to fill the well with concrete and seal it.

To sum up:
They can not cap the well because it will just leak somewhere else.

The can not blow up the well (with Moab or a nuclear bomb) because the structure beneath is compromised and it would just leak out somewhere else.

A relief well is the only viable solution. I hope one of the many scientists who have been trying to come up with solutions will find one that works quicker. Unless they come up with something really new, we can only cry and wait.

[Statistical]

13. Relief well doesn't relieve pressure that is a misnomer.

Relief well is very similar to the top kill except it is done near the bottom of well shaft.

Drill to intersection point.
Pump in mud to kill flow.
Pump in concrete
Pump in more mud and apply pressure to hold mud-concrete-mud sandwich in place.

TADA you have now killed the well (and relief) well at a point slightly below intersection.


That being said MOAB is silly.

[Confusious]

17. Again do you have a link to your claims

or are you a geologist? I'd like to see the stuff for myself.

[Ozymanithrax]

51. This has been covered on Olberman, NPR and in the news.

Look it up.

[Confusious]

53. Of course you don't. nt

[Confusious]

16. A geologist with experience in the gulf

Could tell you.

[Confusious]

14. Do you have link to the geology of the site?

I'd like to see it.

Or are you a geologist who has worked in the gulf?

[MineralMan]

46. Here ya go:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+Geology+Gulf+of+Mexico

[Confusious]

48. Just wondering

Are you a geologist? I might have to make an exception to a rule of mine.

[MineralMan]

56. Not professionally. However, when I began my business of

selling mineral specimens to collectors about 10 years ago, I put myself through the equivalent of a degree in geology and mineralogy. I do that when I begin a new venture. In a year's time, I went through an entire university library's geology and mineralogy section.

I can't show you a paper, but I know my stuff. These days, I'm in the same process with freshwater biology. Fascinating. Why? Because I enjoy fishing in Minnesota lakes, and want to learn everything I can about them and the environment in which they live. We have a great University here and they have tons of information.

[Confusious]

67. Well that's good.

Every geologist with a degree I've met has been cool.

Since you're not one, I don't have to correct my theory.

[MineralMan]

68. Being "cool" has never been my goal.

[Confusious]

70. I didn't mean cool the way you took it.

Which is not surprising.

Nice. friendly. Lets things roll off their back. Willing to help out. never a jerk.

[meow mix]

76. multiple reliefs wells may not work, in heavily damaged blow out

just sayin..

[GodlessBiker]

2. Or, the bomb would make a huge crater, with the oil flowing out from a greater depth...

[petronius]

40. The problem is hole, so the solution is a device designed to make bigger holes

How could that fail to work? :)

[MineralMan]

3. "A simple pressure shell..." Really?

Once again, someone with no concept of the pressures that would be encountered comes up with another lame idea.

[walldude]

5. Typical... don't know how to solve a problem so we try to blow it up..

Um.. this moronic mindset has been fucking us over for years and years, when are we going to start trying to SLOVE problems instead of blowing them up?

Now to add to the "War On Terror" the "War On Drugs" the "War on Thinking" The War On Unions" The War On Iraq" The War On Afghanistan" the War on this and the War on that, we are going to add THE WAR ON THE OIL SPILL!

Yeah if you are too fucking stupid to come up with a real solution just drop a bomb on it. Good plan.

[Echo In Light]

8. So... military personnel who believes bombs are the final solution

[MineralMan]

10. Well, when you're holding a hammer...everything looks like a nail.

Every specialist wants to apply his or her specialty to solve the problem.

[Trillo]

69. I think you're onto something. A great big nail!

Just slightly larger than the pipe diameter so it's a press fit. Just position it at the top of the pipe, and for the hammer, put a MOAB on the nail's head. Set the bomb off, thus driving the nail down the pipe.

If the nail bends, maybe use some giant nail clippers?

[Confusious]

20. Flowers aren't the solution in every case either

I think they have less of a chance of plugging the hole then a bomb does.

[MineralMan]

26. Did someone suggest flowers? I must have missed that one.

Why do you think the relief well has less of a chance of success than a bomb? What gives you that idea. Killing wells via relief wells is known technology. Sealing deep sea wells with bombs is not.

In the first place, a MOAB would be crushed at those depths and would not even detonate. Second, there is no "simple pressure shell" that could be put around it that would solve that problem. Third, the MOAB requires oxygen in order to work. There is precious little of that 5000' beneath the surface of the ocean. Finally, what would actually happen if you could explode something like that down there is completely unknown. Nobody has ever done such a thing at that depth. Ever.

Throwing unknown technology, even if it could survive at that depth, at a complex problem, without understanding in advance what it would accomplish is the absolute height of foolishness.

On the other hand, we know how to kill wells by pumping mud and concrete down a relief well. That's been done many times. I sure hope that works, because that's what we've got.

[Confusious]

30. I don't think a relief well has a less of a chance then a bomb

But I also don't seem inclined to go " well, there's nothing we can do, so lets just wait "

August. 20,000 barrels a day. If someone said shoving Emo and barney down the well ( Which I think would be humanitarian ) would work, I would be looking at it.

In the first place, a MOAB would be crushed at those depths and would not even detonate. Second, there is no "simple pressure shell" that could be put around it that would solve that problem.

Titanic. 2.5 miles of water.

Finally, what would actually happen if you could explode something like that down there is completely unknown. Nobody has ever done such a thing at that depth. Ever.

True

But also, one would be drilling into rock, not leaving it on the ocean floor. That wouldn't do anything.

[MineralMan]

33. What?

"But also, one would be drilling into rock, not leaving it on the ocean floor. "

We would? With what equipment? The only drilling equipment that can be used at those depths is on the rigs in the Gulf, and it's not designed to drill anything like the diameter of a MOAB. The MOAB is just over 40" in diameter, and weighs 11 tons. It is full of explosives and electronics. It has a very thin shell. It won't even explode properly, if at all, except in an open air environment.

You can learn more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast_bomb

You see, you can learn all sorts of things with a simple Google search. But you don't bother to do that. I'm done with this discussion. I have other things to do.

[Confusious]

38. Of course you do. nt

[DURHAM D]

12. This guy is an idiot...

[Segami]

18. Well, that may be so BUT it would seem that the military has bought into his ideas in the past.

I'm sure there are many military personnel itching to drop a MOAB on that well. Its very troubling to read such shoot-from-the-hip dangerous proposals that could affect the entire planet's ecco-system.

[Confusious]

19. Well, we know what will happen if the oil keeps spilling

until the end of august, which is when the relief well will be done.

More dead fish, birds, dolphins and turtles.

[MineralMan]

23. You are correct. More fish, birds, dolphins, turtles, and other sea life

will continue to die. Please direct your anger at those who caused the problem. It's misdirected here. None of us were involved with drilling this misbegotten well. Some of us, however, do understand geology, physics, and other things that help us know why solutions like this MOAB are worthless.

If you'll pay attention, you'll find that there are a lot of people here who have some level of expertise. Constantly haranguing them will not give you the answers you so desperately want, but they might give you some level of understanding of the actual situation.

[Confusious]

27. I'm not directing anger at anyone

I would just like to see some proof of what people say when they say " A bomb would open massive fissures allowing more oil into the gulf"

If asking for proof of assertions seems angry to you, I think it's time to readjust.

Constantly haranguing them will not give you the answers you so desperately want, but they might give you some level of understanding of the actual situation.

So you just take assertions on face value? Those you just spout their mouths off without proof are more knowledgeable then those of who ask questions.

[MineralMan]

31. You're asking for something you aren't going to get, unless you

go and learn physics, oceanography, geology, deep sea technology, and more. At some point, you have to recognize that you don't have enough background information to form accurate judgments. There is no single site that will show you proof of what is being said here. There are plenty of sites where people with that expertise are telling the truth. You can find them, if you wish. Or you can ignore them and continue along the path you're already on.

Nobody's going to explain all of this to you. The information is available, but you'll have to read several hundred pages of information before you understand it. Some of us started doing that many years ago, and have studied this stuff for many years. We're still laymen, but laymen with enough training to understand what we read on sites that are discussing this on a scientific level. There's no easily-digestible format in which we can explain it to you in posts on DU.

DU is not the place where you will find detailed explanations of what's going on. You'll have to leave the comfort of this site to find them.

[Confusious]

36. I just want proof of that persons

Assertions about the geology of the gulf.

What is so hard about that?

go and learn physics, oceanography, geology, deep sea technology, and more. At some point, you have to recognize that you don't have enough background information to form accurate judgments. There is no single site that will show you proof of what is being said here. There are plenty of sites where people with that expertise are telling the truth. You can find them, if you wish. Or you can ignore them and continue along the path you're already on.

Nobody's going to explain all of this to you. The information is available, but you'll have to read several hundred pages of information before you understand it. Some of us started doing that many years ago, and have studied this stuff for many years. We're still laymen, but laymen with enough training to understand what we read on sites that are discussing this on a scientific level. There's no easily-digestible format in which we can explain it to you in posts on DU.

DU is not the place where you will find detailed explanations of what's going on. You'll have to leave the comfort of this site to find them.

Oh dear, you mean all those physics, chemistry and calculus classes I took mean nothing? I should have just looked on the web and everything would have become clear.

Those two degrees in science I have mean nothing. I should have just looked on the web.

I'll be sure to get off of DU and look on the web. Maybe I should just quit going for a third degree to spend more time on the web.

Because a person who just spouts shit off like they know what they are talking about knows more then a person who asks questions.

And GOD FORBID I ASK FOR PROOF.

because then it will shown I "just don't know" and they are the expert.

[MineralMan]

43. Those classes appear not to have made much of an impression

on you. Since you clearly have no concept of the conditions at the wellhead, I have to assume that you didn't take a lot from your physics class.

Sorry, but you still aren't making much sense.

[Confusious]

47. Of course I'm not.

Since I expect you can't lower yourself to try and understand.

[MineralMan]

44. Google Geology Gulf of Mexico

You'll find sites from the USGS, NOAA and hundreds of others which contain enough material for you to spend the next year learning about that geology. Do you suppose that someone can condense that information into a nice DU message for you? Do your own work. Thanks very much.

[Confusious]

49. You know, I usually expect people

to be nice about requests for information and share the knowledge. I know I do.

I guess you just think they're stupid or lazy.

[MineralMan]

45. Here's a nice geological map of the GOM, complete

with cross-section view showing the layers under the water. Now, it's a little complicated, and if you don't have the geology background, it might not be all that helpful to you, but it's a start.

Note: This map was prepared by Halliburton, for whatever that's worth. The oil companies have the best understanding of this geology, since they're the ones who are looking for what's down there.

I found this with that same Google search I gave you earlier. There's so much to look at. I've been visiting these sites for almost two months now. I suggest you do the same.

http://www.halliburton.com/public/solutions/contents/Deep_Water/related_docs/GOM_DWMap.pdf

[Confusious]

50. Yes, I could spend two months piling through

geology sites, or I could ask one person where they got their info.

One seems a little more efficient to me. You guess which.

[MineralMan]

60. You asked for a link. I provided one. There is no way to

provide you with the information you demand on DU. You can either go and learn the basics for yourself, or you can rely on those who have already done that. You appear to be unwilling to do either.

It is not anyone's responsibility here to give you a course on the deep sea benthic environment and the geology of the Gulf of Mexico. If you want to learn about it, there's plenty of information available. If you'd rather go on as you are, you needn't consult that information.

Just don't expect people to provide you with a nutshell course on the subject. The information is easily accessible to you. Why should someone rewrite it and post it here. Go to Google.

Look at that map. Pay special attention to the North/South cross-section provided in it. If you don't understand a term, Google it and go to the Wikipedia page for that term. In about a week of spare time, you can learn enough to understand why bombs aren't the answer in this situation.

Or, listen to those who have already done that and more. It's your choice. Ignorance is fine, but deliberate ignorance and constant whining about someone not being your teacher is not fine. Go learn something.

[Confusious]

66. reply

It is not anyone's responsibility here to give you a course on the deep sea benthic environment and the geology of the Gulf of Mexico. If you want to learn about it, there's plenty of information available. If you'd rather go on as you are, you needn't consult that information.

I would say it's the responsibility of someone making a point to prove it with links to credible sources when requested, which is how I operate. For some unfathomable reason, you have a problem with that. Maybe it's your jerk day.

i.e http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8458702&mesg_id=8458875

i.e http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8458702&mesg_id=8458939

Maybe you needed an example.

All I wanted was a link to the persons claim about the geology of the site, and you have to go and make it a motherfing Broadway production.

Look at that map. Pay special attention to the North/South cross-section provided in it. If you don't understand a term, Google it and go to the Wikipedia page for that term. In about a week of spare time, you can learn enough to understand why bombs aren't the answer in this situation.

Or, listen to those who have already done that and more. It's your choice. Ignorance is fine, but deliberate ignorance and constant whining about someone not being your teacher is not fine. Go learn something.

Yes, we all bow to your greater knowledge and intelligence provided by google. Us small fry are such "little" people compared to you, and in need of your greater wisdom. We just can't compare.

Sorry, you start out being a jerk, I tune you out. You just keep proving it over and over and over and over again.

[waiting]

61. I for one, certainly appreciate intelligent, informed advice

a heck of a lot more than bullshit guesses and irrational ideas that haven't been thought through to their natural conclusions. Thanks MineralMan for explaining this is in an easily understandable, reasonable way. We all want it to stop and while it is noble to express the emotional toll this is taking on all affected by it, wild, untested and unproven theories are not the path we shuld be taking with this spill and well.

[MineralMan]

62. Thanks for that.

[MyNameGoesHere]

63. He seems like a decent fellow

He blew the whistle on the Marines for stalling on the purchase of MRAP vehicles in Iraq.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/02/the-mrap-affair/

[Hawkowl]

22. Sharks with laser beam helmets

If we could mount high powered laser beams on helmets and fit them to sharks, we could have the sharks swim down to the hole and melt the rock shut, thereby sealing the leak.

I think this would work better than a MOAB

[NightWatcher]

25. are they fucking high? (OR) If they do this I go off the reservation

[jmowreader]

28. Umm...this may not be the best plan...

Wouldn't the energy generated by setting off a MOAB kill every fish in the ocean?

[MineralMan]

35. No, only in a small area, compared to the size of the ocean.

However, it would do unknown things to the seabed, possibly opening things up so even more oil could start flowing. We wouldn't want that, I think.

[unhappycamper]

39. I doubt the resulting tsumani will go much past Nashville or St. Louis. n/t

[spin]

41. If the relief wells fail, what else can we do? (n/t)

[MineralMan]

42. At this point, there aren't a lot of options if the relief wells fail.

If that happens, and it's a big if, they'll have to look at other options, including some that may incur additional risks. But...they're not likely to use any of those until after the relief wells and the killing of the damaged well have been tried. It would be extraordinarily foolish to try a completely untested method until all methods that have worked in other situations have failed.

[spin]

52. I agree ...Our best choice is to wait for the relief wells...

Hopefully, some very bright people are being consulted right now for plans in case of relief well failure.

[struggle4progress]

55. *boom!* ... (pause) ... "Oops. Oh, shit! What now?'

[MineralMan]

57. Yup. That's it. And that's why they aren't going to do that in

the first place.

[L0oniX]

59. Silly marine ...BP won't let them bomb the hole.

[cliffordu]

64. There are hundreds of capped wells that would be torn open by the blast radius.

surefire way to kill everything for a couple of thousand miles, in days.....

[MadHound]

65. This would be the ultimate "Hold muh beer and watch this," moments. What utter stupidity n/t

[northernlights]

71. right. because there's no chance in hell that the bomb might instead...

blow the hole bigger? Or shake apart neighboring piplines? Or make things worse?

[dkofos]

72. Show me the simulations that you have run showing me how this is going to work.

Didn't think so.
This guy is nuts.
He just wants to make a huge underwater explosion.

[IndianaGreen]

73. and if this fails by creating multiple leaks, what then?

We won't be able to cap it!

[Urban Prairie]

75. "Use a 21,000-pound megamunition to generate a king-sized shock wave that would force

those leaking pipes on the seabed shut..."

Yikes!!!


"Either one … can be enclosed in a simple pressure shell, that is augmented with several tons of liquid oxygen canisters, and lowered to just a few meters above the leaking well head. An oxygen-enhanced MOAB or Daisy Cutter detonated at a water depth of 5,000 feet will indeed have an interesting effect on all the well-related plumbing and equipment that is above, at, and slightly below the sea floor"

Is this Gayl idiot aware that there apparently is about 1000 feet of SHOCK ABSORBING sediment "slightly" below the seafloor?