Business increases at Southeast Portland cafe that turned away police officer

[stevedeshazer]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/business_increases_at_southeas.html


Some of the owners of Red and Black Cafe in Southeast Portland held a news conference Monday to address concerns over their decision not to serve coffee to Officer James Crooker of the Portland Police Bureau. Also present were members of Rose City Copwatch, who came in support of the cafe. From left are Eli Shannon and Chris Knudtsenof Rose City Copwatch; and Ari Perezdiez and John Langley of the Red and Black Cafe.

<snip>

Showing a policeman the door turned out -- inadvertently -- to be a good business decision for the Red and Black Cafe in Southeast Portland.

The vegan establishment was deluged with customers in the two days after news came out last week that one of the co-owners had served coffee to a Portland police officer, then kicked him out.

"We had a couple of really busy days over the weekend," said John Langley, the co-owner who served Officer James Crooker and asked him to leave. "We had two $1,100 days, which is maybe double a typical day."

The story sparked a fiery response, with national coverage and about 600 comments posted on oregonlive.com. Along with a boost in customers, the cafe has received five threats of arson and other violence.

</snip>

more at link

[Rex]

1. They have the right to refuse service to anyone they want to.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleobulus]

6. Since when are police a protected class? n/t

[Raineyb]

155. It's not. But apparently some people's agendas include turning the institution

that's responsible for oppression into the victim.

It's really quite disgusting.

[depakid]

8. You have no idea what you're talking about

but are simply reacting.

If you had the first clue (or the slightest curiosity) about what's been going on in the community- you might have some understanding about the upswing in business.

And why many of us expected just such a result.

[Rex]

10. So are you saying they should be forced to serve

police officers...because you don't like it? Epic fail...

Fuck the police.

[Tarheel_Dem]

21. Get back to us when it's smoldering. These idiots don't know it, but

they've just painted a huge bullseye on that place. Good luck with that.

[Rex]

24. No thanks, you seem to want the place to go up in flames.

I'd rather not talk to someone like that. Bubye.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

32. They want a police state and will be the first to gripe and complain

when they get it and the cops 'frisk' them at a checkpoint.

[HuckleB]

28. Wow!

Now that's some ugly crap you're offering up there. And politely asking a cop to leave, in person, is somehow horrific in comparison?

Say what?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

77. The bullseye in retaliation might just be MUCH bigger.

Good luck with THAT.

[LooseWilly]

161. "Just painted a huge bullseye"? ... for who?

Showing a cop the door IS NOT going to draw the ire of any of the usual "criminals"... so, are you suggesting that the cops and their "fanboys" and "fangirls" are the one's that will be drawn to this metaphysical "huge bullseye" that you mention?... Maybe you're agitating and warning about the existence of "pro-police" domestic terrorists that everyone should worry about?... something like the Klan in the face of 60's "radicalism"?...

Or, maybe you're just completely clueless and so addicted to fear and capitulation ... and the delusion that the police are somehow your friend, protecting you from the boogeymen depicted in heavily edited COPS episodes... that your gibbering isn't worth listening to.

Blah blah blah...

[superduperfarleft]

190. It already had a bullseye by virtue of being an anarchist cafe.

You and your police-state loving thugs should be thrilled.

[Catherina]

255. Thank you for confirming your true face n/t

[ZombieHorde]

266. Are you suggesting people who are pro-police are arsonists?

Ironic humor.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

59. Last time I checked, Cops weren't a protected class. n/t

[msanthrope]

183. Well, let's take that term, 'protected class' and do some reckoning here.

What you seem to be suggesting, by invoking federal EP classifications that bind government, is a hierarchy of discrimination.

Race/ethnicity and religion get the highest protections. Gender, not as much, and being MR or elderly, less than that, and being gay, really, almost no protection.

So using your rubric, it would be okay for your anarchist cafe to deny service to gays, deny some service to women, but not deny any service at all to a group of white Mormons.....

So--is federal protected class how you want to argue this--or can you not grasp the irony of defending supposed anarchists with governmental scrutiny levels?

[superduperfarleft]

192. Can you not grasp how ridiculous it is to expect anarchists to be comfortable around

what they view as an agent of an oppressive state?

[msanthrope]

200. I expect that anarchists who run a for-profit corporation*** under the agency

of 'an oppressive state' have already made their peace with the man.

ETA---under this new rubic proposed, places of public accomodation are off-limits to certain people when the shopkeepers are uncomfortable....

So, just like this cop should have known better, gays should know better than to expect equal service from religious types who don't approve of them. Women, too, should know better than to expect decent service from places like sports bars and stadiums. And, of course, although they are protected by the law, Black people should really just know better than to push their luck and go to places where they aren't welcome...

(Sarcasm tag for the logic-impaired.)

***Red and Black cafe is an Oregon domestic, for profit corporation, NOT a Non-Profit, nor a Cooperative, both of which are available under Oregon law.

[superduperfarleft]

204. You spammed that shit in the other thread, and it's just as meaningless now.

You also had several people explain why, even though you ignored it.

I know of several anarchist-oriented, worker-run, consensus-based organizations that are incorporated, one of which is owned by a good friend of mine. It's probably for tax benefits or something. I'd be happy to ask him, since some random milquetoast liberal on the internet seems to think that incorporating automatically means anarchism as an ideology is flawed.

[msanthrope]

207. And yet you keep explaining why anarchists are shareholders, now.

If it's meaningless, then why does it make you so obviously uncomfortable, and why did you feel the need to answer my post that was addressed to another poster?

Yes, please, I would be LOVE to hear from a friend of yours how 'anarchist-oriented' businesses incorporate themselves FOR THE TAX BENEFITS. Perhaps he can explain how that revolutionary act struck a blow against the system....

P.S....I think you forgot to call me 'bourgeois.'

[superduperfarleft]

211. I'm not uncomfortable with them incorporating, I'm just rolling my eyes at you and a number of other

DUers whose knowledge about anarchism and the anarchist community is about equivalent to a teabagger explaining why Obama is a Marxist Socialist Muslim. The only thing you guys are missing is the misspelled signs.

And sure, I'll ask him. Expect a PM from me in a few days. He's a bit busy right now pursuing a law degree (I know, I know, the sellouts just keep coming), but I'm sure he'd be happy to help.

[msanthrope]

222. Rolling your eyes is a sign of being uncomfortable....it expresses

annoyance, and frustration, which are not comfortable emotions.

I wish your friend well on his bar exam. Perhaps you could ask him about the applicability of EP classes to public accomodation law. Perhaps he can explain to you that the 14th and the CC are two different things. If he can't, then it bodes poorly for him.

[superduperfarleft]

223. Wow, obtuse AND pretentious.

Definitely a rare combination around here. :sarcasm:

But I'll let him know you said good luck. And you keep putting your body in those gears by treating the kicking of a cop out of a cafe as the equivalent of discrimination against minorities.

(Sorry, I just noticed your sig line and the irony was impossible to ignore.) :rofl:

[msanthrope]

228. Did you miss the part where I argued that

Using the EP classes isn't the correct rubric?

I'm not arguing what you say I am.

I'm asking a direct question that neither you nor any other poster has been able to answer.

So of course, posed with an uncomfortable question, you call me names, which is an answer, I suppose.

[superduperfarleft]

229. And I'm not arguing that either.

I never said that using EP classes (I had to look that up, after basically admitting to being a layman, and you proceed to use legal jargon, which I was why I called you pretentious) was how I gauged whether this was okay or not. What I was arguing is that (1) being a cop is not equivalent to being a minority with a history of being discriminated against and (2) I can't blame a group of anarchists being uncomfortable around a representative of a police force that has a long history of harassing them and, you know, shooting people.

As I said on the other thread, if I ran a business, and Pat Robertson came in, I'd probably tell him to get the fuck out as well. Would that make me ZOMG A BIGOT!!111 or would DUers proceed to congratulate me on how awesome I am?

And this entire subthread started because of your ad hominem against them for being incorporated, remember?

[msanthrope]

237. If you had no idea what the poster in #59 was talking about

Why did you jump on the subthread? And I don't agree that that poster's use of EP language was pretentious.

Why did you bring up state agency if you didn't want to discuss it, mid sub thread?

So now, after looking up what I was actually talking about, you agree with me?

Oy vey.

PS. If you had denied Pat robertson service I would have told you you were a dolt who missed an opportunity to tell Mr. Robertson that the money he spent on his purchase was going to a Planned Parenthood clinic in his honor. You would then have done your job while serving a higher purpose.

[superduperfarleft]

238. I was using the word "state" as in The State, not the state of Washington.

And, no, I don't agree with you. You were the one (1) claiming that their actions were wrong and (2) they were somehow hypocrites because they were incorporated.

Oy vey indeed...

[msanthrope]

247. Yes--you do agree with me.

You agree that using suspect class determinations is an incorrect rubric for judging a corporation's actions.

That would be agreeing with me.

As for state agency, if the officer in question is not an agent of the state of Oregon, then what state is he an agent of? Is it a metaphysical one?

[kctim]

219. Hmmmmm?

About as ridiculous as believing they would NOT demand help from such an oppressive state when their business is threatened or robbed?

To the bottom of the "respond to" list for them.

[superduperfarleft]

220. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Anarchists like these don't call the police for anything. I don't always agree with them (one case I remember involved sexual assault, and the community "handled it.") but they are usually consistent about this.

[kctim]

224. Sorry

But I have ran into these 'anarchists' many times and they are no different than the right wing groups who think they can "handle" everything themselves when it is from within their little dipshit 'community,' But when put into the position from somebody outside their 'community,' they WILL and DO plead for help.

SFFS ;)

[superduperfarleft]

225. As have I, and that's not been my experience at all.

And on with the Anecdote Cage-Match.

I have no idea what SFFS means.

[kctim]

232. Glad to hear that

and I was in no way trying to say they were not. Just that mine have been. Probably due to the different lives we probably live.

[HuckleB]

227. You visit Portland frequently?

:shrug:

[kctim]

230. I've done my share of rides

out west, early 90s or so. I've run across the 'anarchist' types all over. Wasn't meaning to put Portland down in any way.

[HuckleB]

231. So you haven't met the people at this cafe, then?

[kctim]

235. Nope, don't need to either

I've run into many people, and even more who "know" some people, who "don't call the police for anything" and 99% of them will take police help when they know they should. The other 1% either ride, live in the woods or are menatally unstable.

I know, the people at THIS cafe are "different." THEY are true anarchist. etc... etc... blah blah blah. I've heard it all before.

[HuckleB]

243. So assumptions are all you need.

Got it.

(BTW, I'm wondering. Did you publish the study after you gathered all your data?)

[kctim]

244. Yep

Assumptions based on previous experiences are all I need here. Well that and that picture. :rofl:

[HuckleB]

245. Anecdotes are fun!

And the caricatures that can be built from them! Oh, man!

:popcorn:

[msanthrope]

233. Wanna expand on how the sexual assault was handled? n/t

[superduperfarleft]

234. Badly, in my opinion.

The police should've been involved so that the individual wouldn't be free to prey on someone else.

[msanthrope]

239. Ideological orthodoxy doesn't always take individual

Needs into account, does it?

[superduperfarleft]

242. A bit more serious than the need for a cup of coffee. n/t

[msanthrope]

249. Interesting that the ideology could handle neither situtation well. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Anybody?

Anybody at all?

African-Americans? Muslims? Jews? Children? Gay people? Lawyers? Teachers? Accountants? Dog owners? Atheists? Native Americans? Polynesians?

Where do you draw the line that says "We don't serve your kind here?"

[Cleobulus]

12. Here's a hint, federally or state defined protected classes.

Simple yes/no dichonomy, yes meaning they can discriminate, no means they can't.

African-Americans? No.

Muslims? No.

Jews? No.

Children? Yes.(Indeed, a LOT of businesses operate on the assumption of age discrimination(Movie theaters)

Gay people? No.(Depends mostly on State/Local anti-discrimination ordinances.

Lawyers? Yes.

Teachers? Yes.

Accountants? Yes.

Dog owners? Yes.(Excepting guide dogs, would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act)

Atheists? No.

Native Americans? No.

Polynesians? No.

Honestly, I'm surprised at how ignorant people are about anti-discrimination laws and who they protect, why, and how they work.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. It ain't that simple, Sparky.

"Clearly, the law does not allow a business to arbitrarily exclude a prospective customer. In order for courts to determine what constitutes arbitrary discrimination, the court will examine whether the action taken by a business owner is reasonable and for good cause.

Good cause is established when there is evidence of improper, illegal or immoral conduct by the customer that occurs on-premises and that is contrary to the public's welfare or morals. To determine whether a customer's conduct is "contrary to the public welfare," the patron's actions must be evaluated and found to be harmful and undesirable.

In some cases, this will be based on what the local community perceives to be immoral. The courts actually look to the particular local community to decide what the standards are to determine whether or not good cause has been established for the denial of service."

http://www.gaebler.com/When-Restaurants-Can-Choose-Not-to-Serve-a-Customer.htm

And this:

"In the 1960s, the Unruh Civil Rights Act was interpreted to provide broad protection from arbitrary discrimination by business owners. Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were."

http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service

[Cleobulus]

35. We are talking federal, not state laws, those may be more expansive...

read your second link again.

[msanthrope]

89. DU cheered when Grayson went after the dr. who discriminated against Democrats.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/alan-grayson-urologist-who-put-anti-obama


Apparently, it was really bad for one business to discriminate, but it's really good for this business to discriminate....

[Cleobulus]

93. Oh please, tell me you aren't serious in comparing the two. n/t

[msanthrope]

97. One business discriminates against a non-protected class, and that's bad.

Another business discriminates against a non-protected class, and that's good.

The difference is that one business is a for-profit corporation that calls itself an 'anarchist collective.' Therefore, they get to discriminate against people we aren't supposed to like.

[Cleobulus]

99. No, they are using it as a protest of the conduct of the Portland PD...

and because of that conduct, Police Officers in their place of business would cause a disruption of that business. Really, it doesn't take long to look up WHY this happened in the first place, and WHY this business isn't facing overwhelming negative publicity in Portland.

[msanthrope]

109. Right. Discrimination to make a political protest -- e. g., against 'Obamacare' is bad.

But discrimination in furtherance of the political causes YOU support is good.

As long as the corporation in question is being mean to people you hate, you support the corporation's right to do so.

But should a corporation discriminate against people you like, then, that's bad.

[Cleobulus]

110. Do you understand that the business in question had a VALID fear...

that catering to police is bad for business because the police have a bad habit, in this particular city, of shooting/beating innocent people. Just saying.

[msanthrope]

120. 'Valid' fears of democrats are bad. 'Valid' fear of this cop, good.

I get it. You support corporations who have VALID fears of a particular group being able to exclude them.

[Cleobulus]

123. You know the fears of democrats wasn't, and isn't valid...

your comparison again makes no sense.

[msanthrope]

138. But you support the right of the corporation to decide what is a valid fear, and act on it, right?

I mean, you claim that this corporation, this cafe, had the right to decide that cops were bad for business, and discriminate against them.

Surely you aren't denying that right to other corporations?

[apocalypsehow]

213. Incorrect: the pretzel twists in *YOUR* logic make "no sense."

The comparison between the excluded "democrats" (Sic) and the excluded police officer is apt, and spot-on. Please try again.

[depakid]

103. You're citing California law!

[moriah]

131. What I wonder is, would they have cared if the cop was not in uniform?

Okay, so here's something a lot of people seemed to have missed.

The business has a "Safer Space" policy, and here is how it reads:

http://redandblackcafe.com/safer-space-policy/

We strive to eliminate any oppressive actions, behaviors, and language in this space. These include, but are not limited to, racism, sexism, ageism, sizeism, classism, ableism, transphobia and heterosexism. We want this to be a comfortable space for everyone. Please feel free to approach a collective member in confidence should anyone here make you feel unsafe.

The following behaviors must result in 86-ing:

* OLCC violations (suchas bringing outside alcohol onto the premises or giving beer to minors)
* Theft of money or property
* Violating our Safer Space Policy
* Physical, verbal, or mental abuse
* Sexual harassment

The following behaviors may result in 86-ing, at the discretion of the worker(s) present:

* Inappropriate / unwelcome comments and behaviors
* Disruptive or disrespectful behavior
* Causing a worker or patron discomfort or distress for any reason (including violating our Safer Space Policy)

Emphasis mine, of course.

Obviously, their policy, at least, does not specifically say police officers are banned. But given the nature of the establishment and the known issues in Portland regarding police, I can see where a uniformed officer might be considered to cause a worker or patron discomfort or distress. And in the first article on the subject, both the police officer and the worker (a co-owner, not "the owner", btw, since the business is a co-op as their website says) said that the issue was the presence of a uniformed officer, and that any hostility was directed to the uniform and not the person.

Also notice that obviously a worker HAD to have served him at first, even though he was in uniform, or he wouldn't have had his cup of coffee in his hands when he was trying to leave, before another patron stopped him and started a discussion regarding police activities in the city.

So, what I wonder is this: Would they still refuse to serve him, or other police officers, if they were not on duty and out of uniform?

I kind of doubt it. How would they know?

We can debate whether it is wrong to exclude police officers, and I stated before I think it was silly for the co-owner to eject someone who was already on their way out the door. But the efforts to exclude him did not start until he engaged in a discussion with the right-wing blogger about police activities in the city. Unless they now start excluding officers out of uniform and in uniform, and before they engage in any discussions that could make other patrons or workers uncomfortable, I don't think you can get the "arbitrary" thing proven.

[superduperfarleft]

218. It's right there in the article. They said they have no problem serving cops out of uniform. n/t

[msanthrope]

182. Using your rubric, are you advocating for discrimination levels that mirror EP categories?

Because if you are, then I have some questions for you.

You would agree that discrimination based on race and ethnicity is right out....

But what about discrimination against women? Gender doesn't have the EP classification that race and ethnicity do. It's a lower standard of review...so is the cafe then allowed to discriminate against women more than they are allowed to discriminate against men?

The MR and the elderly have a lower standard, so is a little discrimination okay against them?

What about gay people? How much discrimination against them is okay?

Please give me a workable equation of how much discrimination is okay, per class, based on your knowledge of EP classes.

[Rex]

17. Your kind? My how narrow focused people are here on DU.

ANYBODY that legally they can refuse service to I'm all for it. People only suggest race because they don't like the fact the owners said to F off to the cop!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. Correct, as long as they are not discriminating against protected classes...

It's a private property owners right to admit patrons based on non-protected classes.

Simultaneously, I hope the local PD sets up a speed/enforcement trap so tight around that block people won;t come within 100yds of there. I don't agree with the business owner's choice - but it his right.

[LeftyMom]

11. You want the police to enforce the law unevenly to make a political point?

I mean they do that anyhow, which is why they're not welcome, but way to just come out and admit why cops suck in trying to defend them.

PS I'm sure most of the customers arrive via bike or transit anyhow. At least, any time I've been there they have.

[Cleobulus]

16. No, he wants the police to illegally harass the business's customers to prevent...

them from entering or leaving the area. In other words, he's a police state advocate. Fucking disgusting.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

50. I never said anything about illegal harassment.

writing citations for people actually breaking laws is not illegal.

Jaywalking, occupancy limits, riding bikes/skateboards on sidewalks, loitering, speeding, turn signals, rolling through stop signs...
All I'm saying is patrons better be circumspect while in the area.

[Cleobulus]

52. Ratcheting up police presence and hauling people in for bullshit and exaggerated...

reasons is stupid. Considering the tension that exists in Portland, it could trigger a riot.

[Zix]

208. Baaaaad policing.

Really really bad policing.

[Rex]

14. Yep, you got it.

I say fuck the police.

[fishwax]

47. that's a strange thing to hope for n/t

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

156. So you're advocating that the police harass the place and it's patrons?

I think that's part of the reason the cop wasn't welcomed in the place to begin with.

Since when is the advocation of such abuse of power part of the progressive credo?

[JVS]

172. As far as things to hope for goes, that's pretty pathetic.

[msanthrope]

206. "It's a private property owners right to admit patrons based on non-protected classes."

Would you care to cite the law that underpins that notion? Federal, Oregon--I'd like to read the law that governs access to public accomodations via the EP protected classes....

While you are loooking, let's go with your rubric that public accomodation law is based on protected classes---So, race and religion isn't a reason to throw anyone....but gender, being gay, being elderly, since they are classified as less-suspect, get less protection against discrimination?

Is that how that works? We determine who gets less discrimination in public accomodations based on their position in suspect class chain?

[petronius]

92. I wonder though, if they didn't abandon that right when they served the officer

I'd suggest that part of the product in a cafe is use of the space, and there may an implied contract once the transaction is made, which the cafe would have violated by ejecting the officer.

On the other hand, "eject" may be the wrong word - someone elsewhere in the thread used the word "ask", and if the cafe owner asked the officer to leave, explaining his reasons, and the officer voluntarily agreed, then he was never kicked out at all. (Sort of like when cops ask to search a car and a driver voluntarily consents...)

[Rex]

168. The owners have just as much right as consumers have to boycott

their store or whatever it would take to lose revenue. Really, it is the authoritarians here on DU that just cannot STAND the fact that the LAW lost and had to move on to another coffee shop. There really ain't much more to it. It has brought out all the Freedom loving posers that really hate freedom and love a good cop beatdown. Sad that they post at DU.

[petronius]

185. I suspect they have a right to refuse service, but once they've agreed to provide

service and accepted payment, do they have a right to renege? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like an interesting question...

[Rex]

250. Now that is a good question, is it a per visit or once

you serve someone you must from then on.

[petronius]

252. I don't know about future visits, I'm just wondering whether an establishment that

initiates service and accepts payment has an obligation to follow through similarly with all customers...

[saras]

260. You got it

Unfortunately, I think you got it exactly.

The actual incident was entirely civil and polite, given the extreme provocation on both sides. Cops are cracking down, people are protesting, cop goes into anarchist cafe and sits down in uniform, cafe politely serves him, then asks him to leave, as the uniform is uncomfortable for patrons at this time, the officer gracefully complies.

Fer chrissakes, it's a liberal SUCCESS story!

But some people just aren't happy until that eye gets poked out. An eye for an I.

[WildEyedLiberal]

154. They made sure to take his money first, though, didn't they?

What a bunch of hypocrite "anti-establishment" posers.

ETA: The coffee shop "anarchists" are the hypocrite poseurs to which I refer, though I've no doubt DU has its share as well...

[WolverineDG]

186. yup nt

[krabigirl]

164. I agree.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

181. Yeah, there's plenty of folk who are uncomfortable with women, Jews, Muslims and gays...

I certainly hope there's anti-discrimination laws in the US to stop wankers like the guy in the OP discriminating against groups of people who make him uncomfortable...

[fascisthunter]

199. comparing racism to this is actually over-board

[Violet_Crumble]

236. I didn't compare it to racism. I compared it to discrimination against other groups of people...

That guy in the OP saying he's uncomfortable with cops isn't any different than someone denying to service to Muslims because of being uncomfortable with them. I'm not sure if the US has anti-discrimination laws like we do here in Australia, but if it doesn't, it should. It's one thing for a restaurant to set a dress code where uniforms aren't allowed, and quite another for some wanker in a cafe where people pop in to get coffee to refuse to serve cops. I would have felt very differently if the cop who was kicked out had actually done something to warrant being kicked out, but he didn't...

[JonLP24]

253. Being uncomfortable around cops

Is VERY different than being uncomfortable around Muslims. Cops have the power to arrest, spy, etc. on you.

[Parche]

2. They should have one of those in Beaverton

the cops here are mostly gung ho....:hi:

[Greyhound]

216. All the suburb departments and the county sheriffs are like that.

Almost 100% ex-military brownshirts. One of the many contradictions of Portland and Oregon in general.

[jp11]

5. They look like they are loitering.

Move along, move along....this might not end well.

[gratuitous]

9. Nice

"Five threats of arson and other violence." Genuflect at the altar of the High Church of Redemptive Violence, or we'll burn down your precious little cafe. Am I getting the message wrong? Because there are lots and lots of restaurants and diners that cater to the police. One doesn't, and it apparently has to be destroyed according to some of our good citizens.

[LeftyMom]

18. A cop who really needed a cuppa could buy one literally next door.

There's another coffee and pastry shop (also vegan- that's Portland for you) maybe 50' away, around the corner on SE Stark. They make perfectly lovely coffee as well.

[gratuitous]

29. I may have to make it a point to drop in now

I've known about the Red and Black for some time, but have never stopped in. My reading of the original story is that the proprietor simply asked the uniformed officer to leave, and he left. The proprietor explained that a lot of their clientele isn't comfortable around police, and given Portland's history with its police force, it's not surprising. I've had generally positive interactions with the cops, but I've talked with enough people (and been involved in enough litigation working in various law offices) to know that not everyone who shows up carrying a badge and a gun has your best interests at heart.

[LeftyMom]

36. The tea is really, really good.

I don't drink generally coffee, so I can't speak for that, but I need to find out who their tea supplier is because that stuff is amazing.

[HuckleB]

39. There are other odd pieces to the story.

The blogger who "broke" the story was the woman who was talking to the cop in the cafe. She is a religious, conservative blogger from the suburbs. (I'm not suburb bashing, just pointing out the fact that she does not live in Portland, yet she made a point to thank the cop in a time when so many Portlanders are very concerned about the department's actions.) It's quite a coincidence that a conservative blogger from quite far away was in the cafe at the same time a Portland police officer went in to buy a cup of coffee.

I'll stop there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. An anarchist in a dress shirt and tie?

Seriously? Button down collar? Seriously?

And are those New Balance shoes?

:rofl:

[Quantess]

19. He's a hipster.

I bet he also wears rockport loafers with velcro closures.

[LeftyMom]

23. NB makes non-leather shoes from US labor. Do you have a problem with US manufactured goods?

Or are you just upset that somebody isn't living up to your stereotypes about what their politics should look like, in terms of footwear? :wtf:

[cherokeeprogressive]

49. Close. You might wanna check where the majority of New Balance shoes are made, LM.

Green America states in the New Balance Responsible Shopper company information page that around one quarter of NB's shoes are made in the United States. That's down from about 70% in 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Balance

But hey, with all the geedahs coming into his coffee shop now, he can get that new car also... What do self-respecting Anarchists drive these days? Beemers? Altimas?

[LeftyMom]

51. Yeah, I know how to read a label. The non-leather ones are almost all made domestically.

Because vegans care about shit like that. http://www.veganstore.com/vegan-shoes/vegan-shoes/vegan-shoes-by-brand/vegan-new-balance.html Look at all those US-made no dead animals shoes. I guess omnis must be buying up the China-made ones. :shrug:

In Portland? He probably "drives" a bike.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

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[HuckleB]

33. There's a dress code for anarchists?

:shrug:

Talk about grasping at straws -- and ugly caricatures.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. R. Crumb.

A long time ago. One panel has a hairy disheveled anarchist thinking "Is this a system" while a dullard in the same panel is thinking "I gotta make a BM".

[msanthrope]

78. When a corporation calls a press conference, the spokesmen dress

appropriately.

[Zix]

209. Do you know anything at all? Outside weird stereotypes?

Do you know any real anarchists? Or only cartoon ones on the inside of your head?

Do you understand what the philosophical position of anarchy IS?

[HuckleB]

15. The cynic in me wondered if the decision was "inadvertent" from my first hearing of the story.

It was clearly a good marketing move for this cafe from the word go. Perhaps it was "inadvertent." But then again...

[grasswire]

20. PPD has poor community relations

Several incidents lately of them killing mentally ill people with what some deem undue violence.

[Arctic Dave]

22. I'm out of the loop on this one, why don't they want to serve the cop coffee?

Confused.

[Cleobulus]

26. Apparently Portland PD have an itchy trigger finger that involved killing...

people they shouldn't, apparently its common there.

[depakid]

37. and repeatedly using excessive violence against the very types of people who frequent this cafe

Part of the trouble is that- due to the fearful thin blue line mentality, even when prosecutors DO attempt to charge rogue officers (some with histories of abusive behavior) grand juries won't indict them.

Thus, the cities (or counties) end up paying big money settlements (or judgments) to many of the victims or their survivors- which the which the cash strapped public entities can ill afford.

[Arctic Dave]

41. Oh, I see.

[Mudoria]

34. Looking at the crowd standing outside I'd find a better cafe..

[Tarheel_Dem]

38. My thoughts exactly. I think it's better that the cops & the public know

that they're not welcome. It lessens the chance that some asshole puts something undesirable in their food/beverage.

[depakid]

40. That's the right approach- as you wouldn't feel comfortable there

why hang out with people you don't like the looks of?

[HuckleB]

43. Don't waste your time visiting Portland, at least not if you're coming for the good food.

You'll end up eating at the crap places, if you're making decisions based on the appearance of the people who work there. Thus, you'll miss out on all the wonderful food.

(And by saying that, I am not promoting the food at this particular cafe. I've never been there, and the people I know who've been there give it middling reviews.)

[LeftyMom]

48. Seriously.

I mean, the best food I've ever eaten, bar none, came from one of Portland's finer eateries where the staff look pretty much like that* (come to think of it, I don't think I've eaten anyplace in Portland where the staff weren't dressed about like that. Except Pirate's Tavern, and they closed years ago.)

*Portobello. Go if you haven't. AMAZING food.

[HuckleB]

54. Thanks for the recommendation!

We haven't been yet, though it was on our radar, at one time. I'm putting it back on the short list.

:toast:

[LeftyMom]

55. Iirc, they move to bigger digs last month, so you can probably get a table without too much hassle.

They old space was super small, so getting in was kind of dicey.

[proteus_lives]

108. +1

It looks a place to score drugs from, not grab a cup of coffee.

[Occulus]

158. The best coffee houses in my town are staffed by people who look like that.

And I mean, packed every day, all afternoon, and they've been there for years.

A uniform and a nametag do not mean "better".

[proteus_lives]

160. Sometimes you're right.

But this place looks skanky and dirty.

[LooseWilly]

265. mmmm... drugs.

[krabigirl]

163. really? wow, I'm certainly not their age nor do I dress like that (anymore :) ), but geez

I don't care what clothes my "baristas" wear. I prefer independent coffee places vs. those horrible corporate ones anyday.

[Zix]

210. Naked prejudiced drivel. You know NONE of them.

How would you like it if everyone stared askance at you for stupid bullshit reasons like how you looked?

Pathetic.

[Dappleganger]

42. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is here.

The owner understands the the presence of the officer brings unwanted variables into his establishment. While I am pro-2A, I think that an owner has a right to decide to not have that in his cafe if he wants to keep a certain kind of clientele returning. What's the harm done? There are plenty of other places which the officer can get his coffee fix at, no doubt. The owner's clientele (and the owner as well) may feel that the officers in that area look down on people such as them. While it may not be my personal preference, I can respect their reasoning.

[LeftyMom]

46. There is another coffee shop and pastry shop right around the corner.

[petronius]

45. I think it would have been more honorable to eject the guy before taking his money rather

than after - I wouldn't be surprised if the cafe had technically lost the legal right to eject him at that point (at least not for the reason given).

However, the officer doesn't seem too bent out of shape over it, so I don't know why anyone else should be. The cafe's clientele is happy, and I suspect that in the broader court of public opinion the PD will get a boost (unless the cops actually do something retaliatory), not that either entity likely cares about the court of public opinion. Win-win, really...

[Supply Side Jesus]

53. Great you turned away the Vegan cop...

nice, maybe he was a rational person on the department and you alienated him.
Great, now you are all guilty of the intolerance you preach against.
Instead of reaching out and trying to gain an understanding between two 'factions' you choose to do the opposite.
Congrats "liberals" you are bunch of posers.

Enjoy your bump in business, it will be short lived.

PUBLICITY STUNT

[HuckleB]

56. It may have been a publicity stunt on all sides.

The cop just happened to go into a place where cops don't usually go on a day when a religious/conservative blogger from the far suburbs was eating there. Then, she, who doesn't even live in Portland, chose to engage the cop in a discussion about how great the police are in an establishment that has been closely watched by the police (to be kind) for years.

Hmmmmm

Does that add up as legitimate coincidence?

Perhaps. But...

:shrug:

[msanthrope]

75. She posted about why she was there---

She was writing an article on a book that had its opening scene there, and she was taking her vegetarian daughter downtown before she went back to college.

http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/why-i-went-to-the-red-and-black-in-the-first-place/

You don't have to believe her, but I seriously doubt the PPD is setting up COINTELPRO in the Red and Black using a beat cop, a soccer mom, and her vegetarian daughter.....

[LeftyMom]

84. Nah, I still think she's full of shit.

I suspect this is more about driving traffic to her website than anything.

[msanthrope]

100. So you think the cop was colluding with her? The Oregonian?

(She published her article on the book in question this morning for them. Do you think they colluded with her?)

[LeftyMom]

101. I don't have to dream up some alternative explanation to think hers is sketchy.

[HuckleB]

146. That's her claim.

Since then, she's been pushing her blog post every place she can, and she's using it to push a religious book that was just reviewed in the local paper. BTW, the author of the book has not backed up her claim, and the cafe in the book could be any cafe in Portland.

It's quite obvious that she had something up her sleeve. Of course, since that doesn't fit your tidy little fictional world view, well, you're not going to care. You've made it clear that you only want to consider the evidence that you want to consider. Anything else is to be dismissed. Well, that's your choice. However, some of the rest of us choose to look at the whole picture. I know. I know. It's just confounding, isn't it?

:rofl:

[msanthrope]

76. She posted about why she was there---

She was writing an article on a book that had its opening scene there, and she was taking her vegetarian daughter downtown before she went back to college.

http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/why-i-went-to-the-red-and-black-in-the-first-place/

You don't have to believe her, but I seriously doubt the PPD is setting up COINTELPRO in the Red and Black using a beat cop, a soccer mom, and her vegetarian daughter.....

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[msanthrope]

112. Dude, all I did was double post. It happens. Take a breath.

Or do you think it's a conspiracy????

[HuckleB]

147. Dude! You're the conspiracy theorist here.

Why so defensive?

[depakid]

58. In case you didn't notice- this was given media attention via a right wing blogger from the suburbs

and as I've said to others who react without knowing what's going on- if you had the slightest understanding of what's been going on in the community- or the curiosity to find out, you understand not only why this is happening, but also why the "bump in business" will be rather permanent, considering that the Portland Police (and their union) are unlikely to change their ways any time soon.

[Supply Side Jesus]

60. Who had a press confrence?

ok..
I'm sure these Hip too cool to be capitalist and their capitalist but non-conforming vegan shop will enjoy their 7 1/2 minutes of internet fame.

I wonder if Portland PD is hiring...

[depakid]

62. The point is the cafe didn't start this-

and I'm sure the Portland PD would love to have you. You seem eager to fit in with their prevailing culture.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Supply Side Jesus]

67. what's that?

The ability to think?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[depakid]

125. pretty much self evident

if it weren't this behavior among the Portland PD would dissipated several years ago- Portlanders wouldn't continually be marching in the streets and holding rallies (some in front of city hall).

...but more importantly, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Supply Side Jesus]

128. Answer me this..

sincerely...

Who appoints the Police Chief?
And why haven't the people held those elected official(s) responsible for the conduct of the police?

The patrol reflects their supervisors. I know first hand. A neighboring agency graves shift had a really bad reputation. when their Capt. died, they mellowed out when the new Capt. set a different tone. Where is the accountability? This agency has a very strong Union also.

[depakid]

136. Police oversight is a bit complicated under the city charter

In this latest instance, we have yet another police chief fired (by the mayor) who's now also assumed the duties of police commissioner, which like other "portfolios" or management responsibilities, is divided up among elected city commissioners from various districts.

The trouble here lies not so much with the chiefs, but with the institutional culture among groups in the rank and file... which is not dissimilar from what one saw for years in LA the LAPD and the County Sheriff's. Indeed, there have been more than a few transplants from those agencies.

[Supply Side Jesus]

143. Sounds convoluted

Besides redrawing up the city charter, sounds like you got the work cut out.

Police need over sight. Crooked cops covering for crooked cops and everyone loses.

[depakid]

149. Portland and surrounding communities have had this problem brewing for a decade or two

because it wasn't nipped in the bud (for reasons I and several posters have gone into) it's reached a boiling point.

Next incident may well end up with a major riot.

[msanthrope]

82. The for-profit corporation had a press conference.....

I've gotta admire their business model---sell the revolution.

[Raineyb]

214. Well they always need more people who turn a blind eye to thug like behavior from their officers.

I guess you won't have a problem.

[LeftyMom]

61. That's the part I don't get.

I mean, if I was a religious conservative suburbanite, and I had a hankering for coffee and vegan pastries and happened to find myself at the corner of SE 12th and Stark, I'd go to Sweet Pea (it's right next door,) not the Red and Black. The Red and Black doesn't really strike me as a place that would seem at all inviting to somebody with that mentality, so I can't figure what this lady was doing there.

[depakid]

68. Interesting, isn't it?

Another thing that I've wondered about for years is why, for all the incessant howling about taxes, do these sorts of people support police behavior that ends up costing the city millions of dollars every year?

I believe learned the answer after Bush left office- they not only support this sort of behavior as long as it's directed at those they don't like or are afraid of but the also want it carried out with impunity. In other words- with no redress whatsoever for the victims.

Unless the abuse happens to them personally of course. Then they're invariably the ones who cry and whine the loudest.

[msanthrope]

94. She posted about why she was there. You don't have to

beleive her, but it did take me all of 5 seconds to find out why she chose to take her veggie daughter there.

http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/why-i-went-to-the-red-and-black-in-the-first-place/

I'm pretty sure COINTELPRO isn't being re-activated, just as I'm sure that the PPD isn't pulling psy-ops using a beat cop, a soccer mom, and her veggie daughter.

[HuckleB]

152. It's all just a happy coincidence, of course!

Why she didn't buy a lottery ticket that day is beyond me.

[boppers]

83. The cop is a Vegan? Where did you get that?

Is he also an anarchist?

[JonLP24]

254. LOL!!

:rofl:

[aquart]

65. A retailer who didn't want a cop in the store? WHY?

We LOVED having cops around. We stocked special items to appeal to cops. We WANTED cops in the doorway.

Maybe those vegans were worried about being shot by cops (it would match the general vegan paranoia) but we were more worried about the guys who came in, herded everyone into the back room, cleaned out the register and then raped a few women on the way out. But that's just us.`

And shoplifting. Nothing like a loitering uniform to make that idea seem like a bad one.

One of my favorite memories is a massive anti-war demonstration just before we invaded Iraq. We were working our way out of the Times Square subway when a cop beckoned me over. She wanted to tell me how happy she was with the ring her fiance got from us.

[Cleobulus]

66. Look up the reputation of the Portland PD before you post anymore.

Yes, quite a few people ARE worried about being shot by the cops, and its not just paranoia, its a pattern of behavior.

[LeftyMom]

70. He should look up the AEPA and AETA too,

if he's wondering why vegans might not be super keen on cops lingering in their spaces. This is a good place to start: http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/

[Warren Stupidity]

71. Free advertising!

Works every time.

[stevedeshazer]

72. I started this thread, I didn't intend to start a war, so let me comment here.

I should have made clear my position on this in the first place.

I was born in Portland and have lived in Portland and the surrounding area my entire life.

The police here are far too aggressive. Sure, there's crime here just like any other city. And we need cops. Most cops, I have no problem with.

But Portland cops killed my friend James Chasse in downtown Portland in broad daylight. The Portland Police Bureau "investigated" themselves and, to no one's surprise, found themselves not guilty. The process is opaque, anything but transparent, and there is NO citizen oversight.

This shop politely asked a cop to leave. The people on this thread who say that cops are some sort of disadvantaged class are wrong. In Oregon and I'm sure in many places in America have the right to refuse service to an individual. To say that this somehow compares to discriminating against gays, blacks, or whatever your favorite oppressed group consists of is absurd.

The Portland Police Bureau (PPB) is staffed largely with white officers who live in the suburbs and exurbs. The culture within the PPB has not matched that of the community since at least the 1980's. Perhaps some older Portland-based DUer's will recall the infamous dead possum incident from the early eighties in which white cops were caught tossing dead opossums on the front steps of a black-owned business.

I could cite many instances of police misconduct in this town, and I have personally felt the sting of pepper spray as a peaceful protester in my own home town on August 22, 2002.



I was roughly 100 feet from this woman that day.

These coffeeshop people should be CELEBRATED. They were polite, they had good reason, and guess what? Their business went up! They did nothing wrong. People are '86'ed from place every day for less than the Portland cops did.

I'm sorry, but when my hometown cops beat the shit out of and crush the ribcage of my friend who is mentally ill because they thought he might be taking a leak behind a tree, I'm gonna be critical.

Most of this criticism comes from two groups of people:

1. People who don't live here, and

2. People who are right-wingers and live in Portland suburbs but still think they live here.

I hope this clarifies a few things. I'm just as sure that for some it won't.

edited to add: Here's what happened to my friend Jim-Jim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Chasse

<snip>

Chasse died after a physical confrontation with three Portland and Multnomah County police officers on September 17, 2006. Officers at the scene described Chasse as a homeless person and said that he ran away from them and fought with them.<1> He was beaten and shot with a Taser multiple times. After the beating, Chasse was cleared medically by fire and ambulance personnel. He was then restrained and driven to jail, where nursing staff refused to admit him because of his injuries. The officers were told by jail staff to drive him to a hospital across town. He died en route.

Chasse suffered fractures in 16 of his ribs and had a total of 26 broken bones, as well as a punctured lung.<1><2> The Multnomah County Medical Examiner ruled the cause of death to be "accidental".

Over 500 friends and family members remembered Chasse at a candlelight vigil and memorial on October 14, 2006.

James Chasse, surrounded by police and medical personnel. He would later die of the injuries sustained during his arrest.

[Cleobulus]

88. I'm sorry about your friend, its just that we have too many scum on this board...

Authoritarian jackasses who CELEBRATE police running roughshod over citizens.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[Cleobulus]

142. Show me where I defended the Bloods or the Crips.

Proof helps, you defended the Portland PD(and the abuses they perpetuate).

[Supply Side Jesus]

144. Your advocation for abolition of Police

de facto supports criminals. Blood and crips equals drug dealers? interesting racial profiling....

show me where i supported PPD. Cuz I only mocked the uber-edgy vegan revolutionaries and their press conferences with corporations.

[Cleobulus]

150. Where have I supported that, I support this cafe in refusing to serve...

Uniformed police if they want to, no more than that.

[WolverineDG]

246. no, you support them taking money from uniformed officers & THEN demanding they leave nt

[jotsy]

165. Excellent post.

Too much loss have you faced of late!!


For your critics:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x473164>

[redqueen]

193. Thanks for this post.

I'm so sorry about your friend's 'accidental' death.

[HuckleB]

196. Good post.

Yes, it looks like this thread is going off into ugly-land, just like the one I started on Friday night. My personal take is that the cafe missed a good opportunity to take the high road, have the officer sit down and talk with the members of the cafe. Still, I don't have a big problem with the action they did take. It's within their rights. Though, again, I would have loved to see them get the true upper hand by asking him to sit down and hear their grievances. Also, I have repeatedly brought up the Portland Police Department's record the past few years, though you did so much more thoroughly.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Again, great post.

Cheers!

:toast:

[flvegan]

74. 5 threats of arson and other violence?

Oh, the irony. I don't even know where to begin.

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

79. I mean half the posters on this thread could do federal time just for posting that news.

Oh wait, that only counts the other direction. Riiiight.

[flvegan]

85. Where the fuck is my VETA?

FFS, there some idiot upthread talking about this place "smoldering" and a "bullseye"

Terrorism advocates on DU. Makes me sad for the children.

[LeftyMom]

91. Vita's clear across town on Alberta. They make excellent breakfasts.

[flvegan]

96. *shakes fist*

I'm calling Kucinich tomorrow. According to this thread and the incidents it discusses, a Vegan Enterprise Terrorism Act is needed. STAT!

That is lest some mullet-headed mouth-breathing knuckle-dragger actually wish to end their (redacted) by pulling some seriously ironic shit.

I crack me up.

[LeftyMom]

98. Damned paranoid vegans.

But hey, does this mean that the PoPo and their supporters can be America's New and Improved #1 Domestic Terror Priority?

[flvegan]

115. Doubtful

That's something we'll *always* have.

*cue romantic music*

[LeftyMom]

119. I laughed.

Because really, what else can you do?

[boppers]

107. I haven't been to Vita since they moved across the street...

Is it better? Worse? I loved their greek salad. Very nummy.

[LeftyMom]

113. Jesus, that was what, four years ago?

Nobody ever did take over the other space, which is amusing since they left because the landlord jacked up the rent. I miss the outdoor seating, but the food is still good. The Bye and Bye is over there too, and that's my favorite bar in the whole damned world, easily (Hungry Tiger Too would be the second. I have major PDX jealously.)

[boppers]

180. That long?

I just remember that the last time I went, neither was open.

I was grumpy about it.

[boppers]

80. By mid-day on Saturday they were out of hummus.

For a vegan cafe, such a thing is *massive* (no hummus? WTF?). I substituted a pasto made with garbanzo beans on my Mediterranean bagel (jalepeno bagel), it tasted freaking *amazing*.

Definitely going back.

[LeftyMom]

90. No hummus? *shudder*

That's even worse than the time I ran out of nooch.

[boppers]

111. ...and the only bagel choices left were jalapeno, everything, and... (drawing a blank)

Hopefully this carries on past the weekend, and they improve their supplies. :)

[Pavulon]

81. They dont have on black masks and arent fucking up starbucks or my car

so they are kinda hard to recognize. Morons. Unless the guy did something they could have served him his coffee.

[stevedeshazer]

86. He got his coffee.

Read the article.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

145. The word is not used in that manner.

It has nothing to do with children, yours or the doofuses in the article.

[proteus_lives]

104. What a bunch of jackasses.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[proteus_lives]

114. No.

They're a bunch of jackasses.

[Cleobulus]

126. So...Context isn't important? n/t

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

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[MellowDem]

121. Bigotry is good business...

at least in some places. Usually the level of hypocrisy isn't this high though.

[Cleobulus]

124. How can you be bigoted against Cops? Least of all the Portland PD. n/t

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[Cleobulus]

132. When the group in question is a class of professionals with a history...

of CYA, violence, and killings, yes. This is like saying you are a bigot if you don't like the Mafia.

[proteus_lives]

135. Not the same at all.

Would a Mobster die to defend you?

Is every Portland cop guilty of violence and killings? If so, provide evidence. Without evidence, I don't put much stock in group judgments.

[Cleobulus]

140. You don't need every portland cop to be guilty of violence and killings?

Just like not all mobsters are murderers or hitmen. Its the corruption of their institutions and the abuse of authority that creates this type of situation. Its so bad that in Portland, outside of 5 threats, this cafe received GOOD publicity, think about that for a moment.

[boppers]

176. Would a cop die to defend you?

Not in Portland, they wouldn't.

They'd shoot you, and the attacker, and claim self defense.

It's safer to not call the cops, here.

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/

[Supply Side Jesus]

137. So Bigotry is OK!

I had a Italian steal a cassette tape from me once.

So all Italians are bad!!!??

[msanthrope]

141. Bigotry by a corporation, natch!!! It's okay as long as we don't like the

people on the receiving end.

[Cleobulus]

153. On what planet does your profession equal race, nationality or ethnicity? n/t

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

178. you have no idea what bigotry is, do you, Bunky?

Christ, you think bias against police and minorities are identical? What a pathetic response, and possibly one of the least intelligent and insightful posts I have ever read at DU...and that is saying quite a lot.

Congratulations: you look like a clown.

[fascisthunter]

201. you intentionally ignore the history between cops and anarchists in the area

I think your bias against anarchists is the reason for your obvious attempts at spin here.

Also, pick up a dictionary and study the term's definition before over-suing it for your agenda.

[MellowDem]

133. It's all about the prejudice...

in this case discriminating against a cop because he is a cop. Cops are a group. If you discriminate against someone based on prejudices you hold about their group, in this case a profession, you're a bigot. Lots of groups have bad reputations for one reason or another, and it may even be deserved. But discriminating against individuals due to prejudices formed about such groups is a good way to show one is bigoted.

[Cleobulus]

134. I'm prejudiced against cops in the same why I'm prejudiced against...

any profession that has a history of abuse of authority.

[Supply Side Jesus]

139. Bigtory against McDonald's Shift supervisors!!

I worked for some real assholes when I was a teenager who got drunk off their power!

[MellowDem]

148. At least you can admit your irrationality...

People with lots of prejudice love broad statements and generalizations. Hopefully you're more discerning with how you treat the individuals of these professions and don't base their treatment only on their profession.

[Cleobulus]

151. Depends on the individuals themselves...

the institution they are a part of may be corrupt, they themselves may not be. It depends on the situation and the specific department in question.

[MellowDem]

205. Well then you seem quite rational and not bigoted...

It's one thing (and quite human) to generalize based on experience. It may even lead you to distrust groups as a whole. But to treat individuals you do not know with that distrust of their group is generally not rational, unless being a member of that group tells you a lot about said individual's beliefs.

[proteus_lives]

159. So you hate doctors, lawyers, nurses, judges, pilots, landlords, all politicians, etc?

[LooseWilly]

162. I don't associate pilots, doctors or nurses with abuse of authority... otherwise, I'm down for hate

... lawyers, judges, landlords & politicians... sure, I'll presume them to be poor human beings until they prove themselves otherwise.

You have a problem with that?

[proteus_lives]

166. Yeah, I have problems with bigots.

You'll find a lot of people do.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LooseWilly]

173. Which makes you bigoted against bigots...

Which makes you a bigot.

Which... means you have a problem with yourself.

Might be time to seek therapy. Unless you care to celebrate your own hypocrisy...

[proteus_lives]

174. Still not clever.

Back to the drawing board with ya.

[LooseWilly]

175. Still thrice as clever as your forced re-working of the definition of bigotry.

And you're still as caught in your own bullshit definition of bigotry as you ever were. Either you're as much a bigot as any cop-hater... or you're abusing the term "bigotry".

You choose hoss. Are you a bigot?, or are you just trying to madly spin so as to try to undermine the credibility of those who are willing to vocally challenge police misbehavior?

You can't have it both ways. Bigot?, or not bigot? Calling on the mods to memory hole your bullshit argument for you will not save you from the consequences of your own half-witted spin attempts.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

184. sorry, you don't get the final say on definitions here, Bunky

"Bigotry" is NOT the same as disliking and distrusting police officers, no matter how much you want it to be so.

Try again, Beckett-head.

[LooseWilly]

198. Sure I get the last word...

especially if you choose not to make your rejoinder in any way effective.

1) Yes, "bigotry" IS the same as disliking and distrusting police officers, no matter how much you don't want it to be so... oops, your argument supports either side of the coin equally. Not a very effective argument there, Sparky.

2) If 1) above is true— then bigotry isn't a bad thing... because 9 out of 10 cops I've met in my life have been assholes. Bigotry can be good, like chocolate cake, when partaken of in moderation. ... (logic is a wonderful thing)

3) 1), and by extension 2), above is actually a load of shit... and you were actually correct— if you suspect that this is the case, then I suggest you talk with Proteus_lives and MellowDem... it's their definition. Maybe you've been partaking of your avatar too liberally to notice that though?

If you take the time to craft a rejoinder with some content, then you get the last word... take your best shot, Chief.

[DatManFromNawlins]

267. You're an idiot

And you're doing exactly the same thing that the Klan does while pretending to be progressive.

[boppers]

177. Discriminating against the KKK and Nazi brownshirts is bad!

I hear you loud and clear.

[MellowDem]

202. If you know someone is a Nazi or a racist...

you already know a lot more about their beliefs and attitudes than you do because someone is a cop or has a certain color of skin. That's the difference. Your discrimination isn't based on prejudice if it's based on what that person believes rather than just being a part of a group. In that case, your thoughts about that group are quite rational, considering that certain beliefs are inherently associated with being a part of racist or Nazi groups by its members.

[LooseWilly]

212. Sounds like your prejudgement of different groups is coloring your logic here.

Prejudgement of brownshirts as bad group-wide, but police as not-bad group-wide... also known as a prejudice.

Just because you knee-jerk judge the police to be less bad than the KKK (and you are undoubtedly right in many cases out of 10, though Mark Fuhrman comes to mind as a glaring counter-example)... doesn't mean that your distinction is anything more than a rationalization of your desire to condone prejudice against the KKK and the Nazis, while condemning "prejudices"/"prejudgements" that you don't want to rationalize.

Let's be honest... we don't know anything definitive about individuals in any of these groups... some members of the KKK might just be ignorant and going along because they've never thought to question the organization that Daddy introduced them to... just like a cop might be a swell guy and happen to, in a moment of panic, pull a 9mm instead of a taser... or they both might be racist assholes...
The point is, why are you defending the policeperson as being separate from the institution to which he/she belongs, but not giving the same individual consideration to the Nazi? Maybe the police can be judged in as far as they are police in exactly the same way that a Nazi brownshirt can be judged in as far as they are Nazi brownshirts... and leave the judgements of the individuals inside the uniforms to the Pope, who was a brownshirt himself...

[MellowDem]

258. It's pretty simple...

being a cop doesn't mean you have a certain set of beliefs. Being a racist or Nazi means you do. You are not prejudging racists and Nazis on their beliefs, you are simply judging them, because you already know what their beliefs are.

[LooseWilly]

261. It is pretty simple, cops have a certain set of beliefs, as much as Nazis or Klansmen do...

it may be a different set of beliefs between groups... but every cop is equally a state-power-enforcer and believer in "the powers that be". Brownshirts share a similar absolute faith in the rightness of whatever "policies" they are/were instructed to enforce... while Klansmen often feel that they need to act "independently" of the institutions that cops/brownshirts work as enforcers for.

The idea that cops don't share "a certain set of beliefs" is just rationalizing a difference to make you feel better about an arbitrary distinction that you want to see between brownshirt judgementalism and police judgementalism...

[MellowDem]

262. I don't think that cops have a "certain set of beliefs"...

that one can assume a cop holds. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

179. you have no clue what bigotry really is

but you sure understand sycophancy.

[MellowDem]

203. Sorry...

one liners don't qualify as an argument. If you don't think this is bigotry you might as well say why. Otherwise you're just engaging in personal attacks.

[Raineyb]

217. You really ought not lecture anyone on bigotry. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[MellowDem]

259. It's not lecturing, it's discussion. Your response is a personal attack. nt.

[WinkyDink]

187. They'd better pray they are never robbed, vandalized, or attacked.

[superduperfarleft]

191. Why?

[WinkyDink]

194. Ummmm....the police aren't welcome? Maybe their response won't be double-time?

[superduperfarleft]

197. Epic fucking facepalm at the idea of anarchists calling the police.

Yet another person on DU with an opinion but no clue what they are talking about.

[WolverineDG]

188. They had already served the officer, taken his money, he was walking out the door

and I'm presuming he was also in uniform, when someone stopped him & thanked him for being a cop. THEN the owner "feels uneasy" & asks him to leave? :wtf:

They then blather about "community groups for restorative justice" or some such, so are they anarchists or not?

If they truly believe cops are evil, they should have given the guy his money back.

dg

[LTX]

241. They're only part-time anarchists:

Full time anarchy is sort of inconvenient, what with the hospital bills and car repairs from driving under the influence of anarchy, and that whole rent and utilities thing.

[superduperfarleft]

189. Good for them.

And I'm sure the cops will be as diligent in tracking down the sources of the threats as they were with hassling the cafe patrons and sending Officer James O'Keefe in there to be a grandstanding douchebag. :sarcasm:

[Radical Activist]

195. This is what happens when a police force acts like bullies and thugs.

They no longer have the confidence and trust of the community. Imagine how many bad incidents have to happen before people who aren't committing a crime start feeling uncomfortable at the sight of a uniformed police officer.

[Greyhound]

215. Until the good Portland cops clean out the cesspool that their department has turned into,

the people will continue to revile and work against them.

It's too bad, because there are at least a few real peace officers still on that force.

[fascisthunter]

240. this is what people are ignoring is the history of cops harrassing anarchists

arresting them without due-cause and abusing their authority.

[LLStarks]

221. This is stupid, even for a hipster cafe. Refusing service to public servants is low. nt

[boppers]

263. Murdering the mentally ill is low.

Doing it repeatedly is criminal.

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/listofshootings.html

[NeedleCast]

226. No such thing as bad publicity...

[Enrique]

248. they're vegan

they don't serve pork.

kidding!

:hide:

[flvegan]

251. I'm stunned that it took this long for that one!

[Catherina]

256. Good. n/t

[rucky]

257. They're just casing the joint.

[Blecht]

264. I was harassed told I looked like a terrorist by a Portland cop

What was I doing? Taking photos on a public street. The asshole pulled up on his motorcycle and began talking on his radio in an attempt to intimidate me, saying loudly, "I've got somebody here taking pictures -- looks like a terrorist to me."

He then came up to me and told me that I was too close to the precinct building, and that they were receiving threats, and he repeated that I looked like a terrorist. I looked at him, looked down at me feet, and then I looked back at him and told him that I was on a public sidewalk. He tried to get me to show him my driver's license, and I refused and went to my car. He followed me and ran my plates. What a scared little piece of shit he was.

If I ran a business in Portland I wouldn't serve them either.

[TheKentuckian]

268. Fuck the police and trying to conflate them with minorities is sick in it's lameitude

People ought to be free to enjoy some java juice in peace without Imperial presence and oversight.

A cop is a poor substitute for a wary eye and a decent firearm until they learn to be officers of the peace rather than a street gang working for the wealthy.