Holy crap. I just figured out the REAL reasoning behnd AZ sb1070.

[smoogatz]

It's all about voting. It's Jim Crow all over. The intent is to intimidate Latino voters into not showing up at the polls. If you can't prove your citizenship when challenged by law enforcement, you could be detained. If the Republicans put poll challengers at Arizona polling places--or even threaten to--and challenge the eligibility of any Latino-looking voter in the presence of a law enforcement officer, that could be enough to trigger the "reasonable suspicion" rule in the law. They're trying to end-run the demographic shift that will, over the next ten years or so, cost them the entire southwest. That's the real reason they're doing it.

On edit: no doubt many other posters here have had the same revelation; it's not my fault I'm a little slow.

[Binka]

1. Of Course It Is

Read this Greg Palast article.

http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-arizona-immigration-lawgop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election/

[jdlh8894]

2. If you are legal to begin with

Then what is the problem?

[nichomachus]

4. It's just pure and simple intimidation

Unlike other people in the US, if you have brown skin in AZ, you care considered guilty until proven innocent. I had to drive through a checkpoint the other day. White folks were waved through. Brown-skinned folks were pulled over, ordered out of their cars, and made to kneel on the pavement with their hands on their heads until they could prove who they were.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. Don't you have to show papers in order to register to vote?

I had to where I live.

We don't have a 1070-ish law and I'm as white as they come.

[Junkie Brewster]

9. What papers did you have to show?

All I had to show was my driver's license, and I live in Georgia. In fact, the repugs in the state don't want to accept driver's licenses for voter registration cards because you don't have to prove citizenship to get one.

[smoogatz]

10. Proof of residence, not citizenship.

You can use any of the following to register to vote in Wisconsin:


For purposes of voter registration, acceptable forms of proof of residence include:

1. A current and valid WI driver’s license.

2. A current and valid Wisconsin identification card.

3. Any other official identification card or license issued by a Wisconsin governmental body or unit.

4. Any identification card issued by an employer in the normal course of business and bearing a photo of the card holder, but not including a business card.

5. A real estate tax bill or receipt for the current year or the year preceding the date of the election.

6. A residential lease which is effective for a period that includes election day (NOT for first-time voters registering by mail).

7. A university, college or technical institute fee card (must include photo).

8. A university, college or technical institute identification card (must include photo).

9. A gas, electric or telephone service statement (utility bill) for the period commencing not earlier than 90 days before election day.

10. Bank statement.

11. Pay Check.

12. A check or other document issued by unit of government.

[nichomachus]

12. What papers did you show? Birth certificate? Passport?

Read the Palast article.

Brewer, then Secretary of State, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

Which raises the question: were these disenfranchised voters the criminal, non-citizens Brewer tagged them, or just not-quite-white voters given the José Crow treatment, entrapped in document-chase trickery?

The answer was provided by a federal prosecutor who was sent on a crazy hunt all over the Western mesas looking for these illegal voters. "We took over 100 complaints, we investigated for almost 2 years, I didn’t find one prosecutable voter fraud case."

This prosecutor, David Iglesias, is a prosecutor no more. When he refused to fabricate charges of illegal voting among immigrants, his firing was personally ordered by the President of the United States, George W. Bush, under orders from his boss, Karl Rove.

[laughingliberal]

46. And I'm sure, at the time, DUers condemned this. What a difference a few years makes. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Do people bother readying anymore?

Yes that has been condemned as well as SB 1070

[Confusious]

120. No, it seems they don't

read that is. They just react to whatever some else tells them.

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. What papers do you have to show, exactly?

Are they called visas?

[kctim]

16. Sounds more like

they were pulled over because they COULDN'T prove who they were, which is something EVERY driver must be able to do by law, when asked.

[nichomachus]

20. Nope

Agents just looked through the windshield -- white folks were waved ahead, brown folks were waved over to the side. No one was asked for papers until after they were kneeling on the ground.

[laughingliberal]

48. +1 nt

[havbrush]

78. Pulled over

No one is pulled over because they couldn't prove who they were. Think about it. They had to have already been pulled over for the officer to find out they couldn't prove who they were so they were really pulled over for something else. And that's the reason for all this uproar over the AZ law. A bad cop or a good cop who's just having a bad day (might have had an argument with his/her spouse or just gotten chewed out by their boss)might decide to take it out on a driver who looks Latino. And that person could be a Mexican American whose ancestors were here long before the United States was even a country. This person may not have a birth certificate on them and the cop, being a hardass, won't accept their driver's license because he thinks it looks 'fake.' Bingo! Someone's going to jail and it sure isn't the cop having the bad day.

[kctim]

91. Read the OP

it was at a checkpoint. You pull up, show info and drive on. If you cannot show info, you 'pull over' to the side and a more detailed check is conducted.

And you're fear based 'having a bad day' scenario is silly. Why would the evil white cop go through all that crap when he could just say the driver was doing a hundred mph and arrest him for that? Much easier.

[jdlh8894]

99. It was a checkpoint

Maybe,they were looking for a certain type of car.

[Confusious]

22. If you're talking about an immigration checkpoint

That's federal government, not state.

I've been pulled over in New Mexico.

[yodermon]

23. Did you see this? Did you literally, really, actually, see this?

"Brown-skinned folks were pulled over, ordered out of their cars, and made to kneel on the pavement with their hands on their heads"

[blondeatlast]

34. I've experienced it more than once. Yes, it is Federal, not state,

but this blonde, blue-eyed white girl was passed along while I saw (on two occasions out of many) brown skinned folks asked to step out and once I did see them made to kneel . I haven't been at the stops on other occasions long enough to see what happens after they are asjked to step out of the car.

Just outside Tombstone every time.

[Confusious]

37. So you heard the entire conversation

And know for a FACT that they were citizens?

and know for a FACT that they didn't do something illegal?

and you know for a FACT that the cops were racists?

Just playing devils advocate.

[blondeatlast]

86. Nom, Mr. Nuance, I just saw what I saw--and they gave me nothing more than

a passing glance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. You don't live by the border region

I take it...

Just saying.

[Confusious]

92. I don't make massive assumptions

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"

Just saying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Well then I'd invite you to LISTEN to those who LIVE

on the border region... especially among the Latino community.

Ever since ICE stepped up their raids the level of fear in this community has gone up to incredible levels, and not just among illegals.

Hell the checkpoints on the way to LA have become rather busy, and yes they go by what you look like... and yes these days I CARRY a passport when I go to vote... after all I got an accent...

Should I have to carry a PASSPORT? Now you tell me.

Yes SB 1070 is a new version of Juan Crow... like it or not. And what was described to you IS HAPPENING.

[Confusious]

101. You don't need a passport

you just need a drivers license for this law.

Besides that, ICE is FEDERAL, not STATE. They have their own rules, and can do pretty much whatever they want, which is enshrined by laws which were passed near the start of the country.

Which is to say, the founders of the country passed those laws.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Well locally I do carry my passport

and SHOW IT to make sure I am allowed to vote... and it is not Arizona, and it is not State Law either. But I gotten challenged.

You are telling me that this will not happen in Arizona? I take it you are white, you got no accent. Dime on the dollar.

Oh in case you wonder, tomorrow morning, before we go to vote, I will take out my passport to go vote... that is the way it is.

And yes I know the difference between ICE and this Arizona Law, which will lead to more people having to have to carry a passport... instant voter suppression. If you do not get how power elites control a population, there is no way I can help you there by the way.

[Confusious]

104. I happen to be white

With a sioux great-grandmother.

I would make a bet with real money that my eyes are darker then yours, and during the summer, my skin is darker then yours.

I was even stopped at a New Mexico checkpoint. They let like 20 cars go, and then stopped me.

"which will lead to more people having to have to carry a passport"

No, a drivers license will do. But you can carry a passport if you wan to. If it allows you to keep that hate going.

As far as the "elites," ( I'm starting to see that as justification for whatever YOU want ) they like illegal immigration. Cheap labor. Don't have to pay actual citizens real wages, and you can treat them like virtual slaves.

[Junkie Brewster]

109. Oh COOL! DU has two way cameras?

How great is that?

Oh no, that's not good. I like to post in the morning, when I'm not wearing makeup. And, sometimes I post in the evening, just wearing a sports bra and shorts... Shit. That is not great. NOT GREAT AT ALL.

How can we opt out of the two way camera thingie?

[pinboy3niner]

113. A driver's license SHOULD do, but it may not

You have an excellent and precise grasp of the law's ID requirements. An officer is required to accept a DL from AZ and 44 other states as PRESUMPTIVE PROOF of legal presence.

But we've seen recent examples of fed ICE/Border Control agents arbitrarily refusing to accept valid proof of legal presence, and there's no guarantee that some AZ cops will not act arbitrarily in enforcing the new state law (if it takes effect).

The level of intimidation and fear already is high in Arizona, with reports of some even long-term Hispanic residents fleeing the state. Even in CA, Nadine has enough experience with discrimination not to take any chances, and to take EXTRA documentation, just in case. She's not being paranoid or delusional--just realistic. As she points out, it's worth LISTENING to those who live in Arizona and have some experience with law enforcement practices there. Do I even need to mention MARICOPA COUNTY and SHERIFF JOE?

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. +100

Exactly that is the problem...

I live in a fairly purple, used to be red, district. But the people working the polls are still not precisely representative of the broader population. And if you happen to have an accent, at times they ask questions they should not ask... and a driver's license, all of a sudden, is not good enough. Oh never mind the law might say one thing... they are doing whatever they want.

And we have had people end up in ICE facilities, or worst abroad, because they cannot prove their birth place... even when that is in the US.

[Confusious]

118. reply

But we've seen recent examples of fed ICE/Border Control agents arbitrarily refusing to accept valid proof of legal presence, and there's no guarantee that some AZ cops will not act arbitrarily in enforcing the new state law (if it takes effect).

Well if they do, whoever they do it to, I hope they sue and win.

And as I've said, ICE/ Border control has a lot more power in how they deal with things.

As for the rest of your argument, it can be applied to ANY law. Why should we pass it when it can be abused? I will admit, there may be more of an opportunity for abuse with this law, but if someone is going to abuse the law, they will do it with any law.

This law hasn't even taken effect yet, and there is still sheriff joe.

BTW I live in Arizona, in the south of the state. Tombstone is 45 minutes away, if I drive slow.

[pinboy3niner]

126. reply :)

As to abuse, we agree that feds have more authority, and that abusing officers/agencies at any level of government should be held accountable by the courts. (Though that's easier to pursue for someone of means than for those immigrants who may be at or below poverty level. In the case of the new law, though, civil rights groups will be actively monitoring and looking for abuse cases, and that will help.)

As to your "any law" argument, I've made the IDENTICAL argument multiple times in these threads when someone has objected to my simply trying to post accurate information about the text of the law on I.D. requirements. It happened again on another thread today, despite my attempt to insulate against it, and AGAIN I made our argument:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8506634

In THIS subthread, though, we were discussing Nadine's feeling that she wants to carry extra documention above and beyond what a law requires, as extra insurance against abuse. So, in acknowledging the possibility of abuse, I wasn't asking, "why should we pass it" or challenging what the law says, or the value of offering that here.

Sheriff Joe is an example of abuse of law, though THIS law is not now in effect. That seems to validate the fears of anyone who, like Nadine, understands what the LAW says is required, and still wants to take EXTRA precautions as additional insurance against negative consequences.

Living in Arizona--AND having been stopped because of your appearance--I'm not sure why you would take issue with what Nadine expressed.

[Confusious]

128. I'm not sure why you would take issue with what Nadine expressed.

This:

nadinbrzezinski Mon Jun-07-10 07:37 PM Response to Reply #37

87. You don't live by the border region

I take it...

Just saying.

Was a response to this:

Confusious

37. So you heard the entire conversation

And know for a FACT that they were citizens?

and know for a FACT that they didn't do something illegal?

and you know for a FACT that the cops were racists?

Just playing devils advocate.

Which was a response to this:

Blondatlast

34. I've experienced it more than once. Yes, it is Federal, not state,

but this blonde, blue-eyed white girl was passed along while I saw (on two occasions out of many) brown skinned folks asked to step out and once I did see them made to kneel . I haven't been at the stops on other occasions long enough to see what happens after they are asjked to step out of the car.

Just outside Tombstone every time.

Give me snark, you get it right back.

I also don't make assumptions about what I see on the road, or anywhere else for that matter.

I worked with electricity for a lot of years. Assumptions get you killed. It may be a failing of mine, but I'm still living, and my teeth aren't fused together.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. As I said, you do not raise hackles

I don't, that is until I open my mouth. I happen to be white... but my eyes are quite dark too...

And that is the point. People in the Hispanic community, whether they are here legally or not, know what this is about. And it ain't about keeping illegals out, but about keeping people off the voting rolls.

I hope it has the same effect the RNC managed to get in California with 97, but brewer has already managed to disenfranchise legal voters by the thousands as a Secretary of State. So they have taken the precaution to make sure the people they want to suppressed are already suppressed. Try listening to them ok. This is Juan Crow all over again.

[Confusious]

119. I still have to disagree

They've already passed those laws.

This is about Jan Brewer getting elected, and embarrassing Obama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. And voter suppression

these people can chew gum and walk at the same time. They have proven this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Given that she engaged in voter suppression as SOS... I think I can make a case for that.

[pinboy3niner]

124. Bingo! Multiple purposes, levels, motives.

It really is a mistake to underestimate the nativist, white power, enforcement-through-attrition crowd. They have been laying the groundwork for this for YEARS. They are organized, and they are smart. And they're not done yet....

:hi:

[Junkie Brewster]

93. I was pulled over once for being Hispanic

I was near Coco Beach, FL. I was pulled over because the local police had been told to keep an eye out for a Hispanic woman driving a red sports car with out-of-state plates. I was driving a green, four-doored Volvo at the time, although the sunroof was kind of sporty, and I did have Georgia tags and I am a Hispanic woman. The cop asked to search my car and I told him no, he didn't have probable cause, because if he'd had probable cause he wouldn't have asked. I ended up on the side of the road for two hours, but eventually, they let me go. No ticket was issued.

[pinboy3niner]

134. Stories like yours need to be heard

Surprisingly, a lot of people believe racial profiling won't be used to enforce SB 1070--even though that's virtually the only way to find "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is not in the country legally.

It sounds like Coco Beach is very lucky you didn't decide to sue.

[blondeatlast]

31. I've seen it on occasion when deriving to Bisbee. the stops were located just north of Tombstone.

My ex-husband, who is Indian, was looked over pretty good but not asked to step out. He's a citizen of the US (by our marriage) of asian Indian descent, although his skin is lighter.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. Holy fuck!

When you get an article that provides this information please PM me. I need something I can use as a reference. Don't doubt you, but I'm too far away to confirm it myself.

[Mojeoux]

117. OMFG!!!!!!!

That should be on You Tube.

That is evil personified.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Even though I didn't do anything wrong I would avoid going to a place where some goons ...

... with guns were rounding up everyone who fit the same general description as me.

Don

[smoogatz]

7. Can you prove you're a citizen?

I can't. My passport's expired and I have no idea where my birth certificate is. My WI driver's license makes no assertion one way or the other about my citizenship or lack thereof. If I was forced to produce documentation of citizenship in order to vote, it wouldn't be impossible, but it would be a project. If you added in the possibility that I might be detained, arrested and/or deported if I failed to satisfy a police officer's demands for proof of citizenship, I might just give up on the idea of voting altogether. Wouldn't you?

[Confusious]

24. You have to prove legal residence

Not citizenship.

Read the bill. Be informed.

[smoogatz]

27. Okay, can you prove you're a legal resident?

Got your green card handy?

[Confusious]

29. I have my drivers license

It took proof of legal residence to get that.

Had to show a birth certificate.

[smoogatz]

39. Here's the applicable part of the statute:

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
27 C. IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS
28 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM
29 IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE ALIEN SHALL BE
30 TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND
31 CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.
32 D. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY
33 SECURELY TRANSPORT AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES
34 AND WHO IS IN THE AGENCY'S CUSTODY TO A FEDERAL FACILITY IN THIS STATE OR TO
35 ANY OTHER POINT OF TRANSFER INTO FEDERAL CUSTODY THAT IS OUTSIDE THE
36 JURISDICTION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.
37 E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON
38 IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED
39 ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

It says you have to verify your immigration statues with the federal government. Your AZ driver's license won't do that for you. If you can't, AZ cops can send you to a federal detention facility. Still think voting while brown in AZ is safe, as long as you're here legally?

[Confusious]

42. That was the old version

That was not the bill passed.

Look again.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/4/26/860946/-Which-version-of-Arizona-SB-1070-was-signed-UPDATED

[smoogatz]

45. Nope. It's the amended version.

Maybe you'd better look again.

www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[Confusious]

50. You didn't read my link

The version you posted is not the amended version.

The amended version requires a drivers license as proof. I looked quite hard to find out what proof was.

I'm sorry if I'm ruining your chance to get your hate on.

That was the senate version. The house version passed.

[smoogatz]

64. Your link wasn't there when I responded.

You added it after the fact. And it's inconclusive. The one posted below is much better. But in substance you're right--a driver's license is sufficient. Still, lots of registered voters don't have valid driver's licenses, and even in Arizona a driver's license isn't required to vote. So I guess I can still get my hate on if I want to.

[Confusious]

71. Arizona nonoperating identification license.

State ID.

Even kids can get one.

If you live in the west, you need a car to get anywhere. So you probably have a drivers license.

[jberryhill]

How much do they cost?

Aside from having the time to hang out at the DMV...

[Confusious]

97. The point?

An identification (ID) card is available to all ages (including infants) for a fee of $12. For persons age 65 and over, or anyone receiving federal Supplemental Security Income disability payments, there is no fee. You may not possess an Arizona identification card and a valid driver license at the same time.

[pinboy3niner]

67. What you have is what theSenate initially passed before the House modified it

The Senate SUBSEQUENTLY adopted the House-modified version.

The easy way to tell: your version says, "Senate Engrossed"; the ACTUAL final version that was signed by Gov. Brewer will say, "HOUSE ENGROSSED SENATE BILL" right on the front page.

[pinboy3niner]

Your text is from the version NOT enacted

The problem is that Google searches can turn up different versions of the pre-enactment bills.

Here are the links to the law (SB 1070) and the subsequent amendments (HB 2162):

SB 1070:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm


Amendments:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.htm

[obxhead]

96. no, your proof of residence is

proven with a billing statement such as a utility or a rental lease agreement for a home. Your birth certificate was used as a form of identity in the case of getting a license.

[blondeatlast]

35. I don't carry a green card. Of course, I'm a white skinned blone--but this Arizonan remembers

the Chandler Roundup where good citizens, who happened to be brown-skinned, had to scramble for some identification just because they were walking the dog.

[Confusious]

40. One other thing

Legal immigrants are REQUIRED by the federal government to carry their "papers" at ALL TIMES.

You don't have them, your in a lot of trouble.

[smoogatz]

47. Citizens, on the other hand, are not.

But as I say, you can't prove you're a citizen with your driver's license. Hope you've got your passport and birth certificate handy.

[Confusious]

59. You just don't want to let it go do you?

You don't need to prove you're a citizen. Just legal residence.

And a drivers license will do.

[jberryhill]

95. Not everyone HAS a driver's license

And you can say, "Oh, well, you can get a state ID if you want" - if you can spare the time from work in order to wait in line at the DMV for a document you really don't need BUT FOR the fact that someone is going to require this proof from you at any arbitrary time.

This is how the "driver's license at the polls" thing works. Basically, it requires the working poor to go through an extra step for a document they don't need, relative to persons with higher incomes who generally have driver's licenses.

They don't hand those things out like candy. It takes time and expense to get one, and basically imposes a "voting fee" (i.e. the fee required to get the non-driving license ID).

[Confusious]

100. Been to the DMV lately?

I haven't. Not in about 10 years. I do every thing online.

I have to go down and get a new ID, since my picture hasn't been updated lately. I expect the lines to be nothing.

I also have to get my car IM'd. Could I use the same argument?

"if you can spare the time from work in order to wait in line at emissions for a document you really don't need BUT FOR the fact that someone is going to require this proof from you at any arbitrary time."

"They don't hand those things out like candy. It takes time and expense to get one, and basically imposes a "living fee" ( Of course, if you don't drive, you don't live )"

Or does that not count?

O, and a state ID, they do hand them out like candy. I had one at 14. You're joking on that point right?

[wolfgangmo]

62. That's true. I carry mine with me 24/7.

I don't leave home without them, because it is grounds to deport my ass if I am asked for them and do not immediately produce said "papers."

[Vickers]

114. My wife never carries hers locally, and has never been asked for it other

than when she applies for a job or is re-entering the USA.

[Junkie Brewster]

8. How do you prove your citizenship on a moment's notice?

A cop pulls you over and accuses you of being illegal. How do you prove your citizenship with the documents you have in your walet? As the Freeps are fond of pointing out, a driver's license isn't proof of citizenship. Most people don't walk around with their passports (and that's a terrible idea anyway, assuming you are one of the minority of Americans who actually has a passport) or their birth certificate (another terrible idea, even assuming the cops will accept it). If you were born in the US, you won't have a green card, and in fact the BCIS won't even know who you are (and why should they? You're a natural born citizen).

[Confusious]

25. You have to prove legal residence

Not citizenship.

Read the/a bill. Be informed.

[Junkie Brewster]

49. Okay, how do you prove legal residence on a moment's notice?

Think about the documents currently in your wallet. Is one of them a green card? How about a US Passport? A foreign passport with an I-515 stamp? Maybe a birth certificate that is an original, certified copy? No? Then how would you prove you're a legal resident?

[Confusious]

63. Christ

A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license
A drivers license

[Junkie Brewster]

65. A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident

A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident
A driver's license doesn't prove you're a legal resident

[Confusious]

69. Yes it does

You have to show proof of legal residence to get it in 46 states.

[Junkie Brewster]

81. No you don't

For instance, in Georgia, as in most states, all you need is a driver's license from another state.

[Confusious]

88. This is Arizona we're taking about

46 states require proof of legal residence to get a drivers license.

If you received it in another state that DID NOT require it, you would have to prove legal residence in the state that DOES.

If we're taking about sb1070, it is in the bill. That bill you are up in arms about, remember?

[Junkie Brewster]

106. Actually, as you've already established...

... Georgia will grant a driver's license to non-residents. Once you have that it's no problem to get a driver's license in Arizona, and, according to you at least, if not the Federal government, proof that you are in the US legally.

[Confusious]

111. This is pointless

As a post you made above shows.

For the last time, you need to show legal residence, which the link I posted proves, which you can't, or won't, understand.

[KonaKane]

11. Its called voter intimidation and disenfranchisement, if you recall.

Perfectly legit and legal citizens can be scared away from voting. They did this with many inner city polling stations during the 2004 election. The cons excel in that sort of thing. It is entirely plausible that enough intimidation of brown citizens at the polling stations would cause them to go back home without voting.

Surely your memory is not that short?

[William Z. Foster]

14. there we go

That didn't take long, did it?

"If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear."

[dgibby]

15. Here's the problem:

I'm an American citizen, born here or naturalized. I go to vote, am asked to produce my proof of citizenship. I produce the appropriate paperwork. Someone in authority questions if my papers are legitimate or forged.

I'm removed from the polling place, taken to the police station, and placed in a holding cell. I'm then held until the authorities can be bothered to confirm my identity/proof of citizenship, a process which could take days.

Then, depending upon whether or not the authorities are satisfied with my papers, I may be released (having missed the opportunity to vote). That would be the best case scenario.

Worst case, I'm deported, then have to hire a lawyer to fight to get back into my own country.

Many people have already been deported illegally, so it is not farfetched to think this could happen again.

[jdlh8894]

36. You know,

I have been voting since 1972. Off years and General. I have always!! been asked for ID !!! So, why don't they they they do this for everyone?

[dgibby]

72. I'm living in SC.

All I have to show is my voter registration card. No DL, no photo, nada.

The problem in AZ is that now they can request proof of citizenship, not just a DL or voter ID card. Now you'll have to carry your birth certificate or passport or naturalization papers, social security card, whatever.

Even if you have the proper paperwork, there's always the problem with someone deciding that the documents "might" be forged. You're not going to get to go home and wait for the authorities to figure it out.

Imagine what would happen to your identity if you were robbed while carrying you birth certificate and social security card. Talk about identity theft!

[blondeatlast]

43. EXACTLY. That was what Arizona's voter ID law wasprecisely DESIGNED to do. nt

[Confusious]

74. I got stopped without my license on me one time

They have these things called radios. They checked, I got my ticket, and let me go. They also have networked computers, and databases. I don't think they have an old guy traveling at .1 miles an hour checking filing cabinets anymore.

Besides, I believe if you're held like that, you could probably sue and win.

I'll take the illegal detention and deportation in exchange for a couple mill. Sounds like a deal.

[blondeatlast]

38. Do you carry your passport on you at all times?

And, what color are you? This blonde, white Arizonan has never been asked to prove residence--but I have friends who were part of the Chandler Roundup.

Why don't you read up on that and be informed.

[jdlh8894]

51. Point Being?

[anigbrowl]

75. Point being that if you don't some overzealous state trooper might put you in jail

Sure, you say you were born here or naturalized and have lived here all your life but then if you were an illegal alien its the sort of thing you might lie about. So off to jail for you, if you really have a US passport you can use your phone call to have someone bring it to your deportation hearing.

[blondeatlast]

77. Are you REALLY that dense?

Hint: Voter ID and SB 1070 are racist--and I don't mind saying so, nor do I mind calling those who support it racist, either.

[blondeatlast]

83. Nuance isn't your strong point. nt

[laughingliberal]

41. Same problem it was in the South when legal African Americans were intimidated into not voting.

Back in the day, Democrats opposed those tactics.

[wolfgangmo]

56. Do you carry provable ID with you at all times.

Passport, certified birth certificate, etc. I has to be more than a DL.

If you don't then realize that anyone rounded up could be shipped to another country whether or not they are from that country. There are pockets of America where people speak their own languages (Cajun country, Cranston RI, the South West, Minnesota (norwegian), etc.) but they aren't checking the whites.

This is about racial intimidation.

[jdlh8894]

90. If I (or my family) go out of country

Yes,we carry passports(and copies on our person if we go out) Plus , wife and I have international DL,s.

[dixiegrrrrl]

68. If ANYONE is challenged, they have to file a provisional ballot.

Then if the challenge is due to citizenship, they have to overcome the challenge, by proving citizenship, before their ballot will be counted.
Which would be a huge delay and a giant pain in the ass,so voter challenges are calculated to reduce
turnout.
Again, I point out, ANTONE...you, me, etc..CAN be challenged at the polls.

[nichomachus]

3. Bingo -- give that Smoogatz a cigar -- glad you figured it out

I posted the same thing here the other day with a link to the Palast article. It all makes sense -- especially since the flow of Mexicans over the border has been going in the other direction for quite some time. There are no "hordes" pouring over the border into the US to steal jobs, collect welfare, flood hospitals, and rob banks -- sometimes all on the same day.

[supernova]

13. Being in the South, it's the first thing I thought of

A-As had to present papers or more often, "proof" they could read and right in order to vote. And there was al sorts of game-paying by the municipalities and county gov'ts about what constituted "proof."

[nichomachus]

17. Here's a chilling story

My government professor in college was an African American -- this was back in the '60s. He was from the south and after getting his PhD he was teaching in the south for his first jon. He went to register to vote. His "literacy test" was that he had to recite the amendments in the Bill of Rights and then pick one and explain. He did -- his field had been the Constitution -- and he chose the 5th amendment because that was what he had written his dissertation on. He "failed" the literacy test and wasn't allowed to register.

[laughingliberal]

55. I'm from Memphis, originally. People have no idea. nt

[Whisp]

18. k&r

[Confusious]

19. Try again

You already have to show 3 forms of identification at the polls in Arizona.

Drivers license
Voter registration
A bill from your residence, with your name on it.

Last time I went to vote, I only had two. I had to go back home a get a bill.

[smoogatz]

21. You were misinformed.

See here:

http://www.azsos.gov/election/prop_200/poll_identification.htm

All you need to vote in AZ is a valid driver's license with your current address. If you don't have that, it gets a bit more complicated.

[Confusious]

28. Well that was my case.

I didn't have a current address on my drivers license, so it took three.

One photo,

Two address of elector.

#
# Two different forms of identification that bear the name and address of the elector (See List 2), or
# One form of acceptable photo identification with one form of non-photo identification that bears the name and address of the elector (See List 3)

So it requires two. Intimidation already accomplished.

[smoogatz]

30. The minimum is one.

If you're trying to vote in one precinct but your ID says you live in another, then you need a minimum of two.

But yes, it's confusing at first glance. I always try to make sure I've got my stuff together well in advance of election day, but voting is kind of a passion with me.

[Confusious]

33. Well, maybe the old ladies at the polling place were confused

They asked me for three. I remember it well, 'cause it pissed me off.

I thought it was complete bullshit. I don't think illegal aliens give a shit about voting.

It does say two forms though.

[blondeatlast]

80. "I remember it well, 'cause it pissed me off."

By George, I think you've got it...

[Confusious]

84. Like I said

I can see illegal immigrants doing a lot.

Voting? Not really. I thought it was bullshit.

Illegal immigration on the other hand is not.

As long as people aren't being singled out on race, I have no problem with the bill. Asking for a drivers license doesn't seem to rise to that, and cops can call it in if you don't have it. It happen to me once (or twice...).

Of course, if they do start hassling citizens, I will have a problem.

I know people here will hate it, but I'm a be informed, wait and see person.

[druidity33]

130. ok, let's say your name is Javier Gonzales...

and you've lived in AZ all your adult life. You live in a house with 6 other poor people. There are no utilities in your name, you don't have a license because you work with your roomates and they drive. Your Birth Cert is a copy of one made in Texas. The only Internet access you have is the local library. But you are passionately interested in voting. How do you establish you are here legally?

:shrug:

[Junkie Brewster]

52. None of those prove you're a legal resident N/T

[Confusious]

61. Your drivers license does

You have to prove legal residence when you get it in Arizona.

[Junkie Brewster]

76. No it doesn't

All you have to have is a driver's license issued by another state, a W-2 and a bank card, and you can get a driver's license in Arizona.

[Confusious]

79. As long as it's another state

That requires proof of legal residence to get it.

I read the bill.

A drivers license proves legal residence, as much as you don't want it to.

SB 1070:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm


Amendments:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2162c.htm

[Junkie Brewster]

82. Georgia will give driver's licenses to people who pass the test...

...if they have a valid foreign driver's license.

[Confusious]

94. Georgia

Requirements

# Provide proof of Georgia residency

1. Present a bank statement issued within the past 60 days
2. A utility bill issued within the past 60 days
3. Current valid rental contracts and/or receipts for payments made within the last 60 days for rent payments with valid Georgia residence address
4. Employer verification (letter from employer on company letterhead stating applicant's full name and home address) or check stub stating name and address.
5. Georgia driver's license of parent, child, guardian or spouse; the GA license/ID card holder must also be present for identification.

# Provide proof of identity

1. An original birth certificate, certificate of birth registration, certified copy of birth certificate or delayed birth certificate (Hospital birth certificates not acceptable)
2. If your name has changed from your original birth record or passport, you must present the complete trail of certified documents supporting all name changes. Documents include but are not limited to:
* Marriage license, marriage certificate or marriage license application (for all marriages) Please note: by law, same sex marriage certificates cannot be accepted for name changes.
* Divorce decree (if a name change was specified on the decree). Divorce decree may not substitute for marriage documents.
* Adoption – court orders
* Legal name change – court orders
3. Certified naturalization documentation
4. Immigration ID Card
5. Valid passport
6. Military identification card issued by the United States armed forces (must provide additional proof of citizenship).

# Provide proof of citizenship

1. For most customers this can be satisfied with a birth certificate issued by a U.S. state or territory (Military ID is not proof of US citizenship.)
2. Valid US passport
3. Valid and current immigration documentation.


http://www.dds.ga.gov/drivers/DLdata.aspx?con=1744173714&ty=dl

DAMN!

Drivers From Other Nations

1. All drivers from other nations, including Canada and US Territories, must pass Georgia's written, road and vision tests to be issued a Georgia driver's license. Knowledge (written) tests must begin at least 30 minutes before center closing time.
2. You should present your Out of Country/International License or Identification card to receive a Georgia license or Identification card. Out of country licenses/permits/ID cards are returned to non US citizens with the following exceptions: Commercial licenses and permits. US Citizens who hold a license/permit/ID card issued by any foreign jurisdiction or US territory must surrender the license/permit/ID card.
3. For those drivers who are not citizens and not authorized to work in the United States, you will need to obtain a Form SSA-L676 'SSN CARD DENIAL NOTICE' from a local SSA office before visiting a DDS Customer Service Center to apply for a driver's license.
* You may contact the SSA at [phone] or visit their website at http://www.ssa.gov/onlineservices/ and select 'field office locator' to find the SSA office nearest you.
* Form SSA-L676 is not available from the web site. After obtaining the form from SSA, present it to the Customer Service Center when you apply for your driver's license or identification card.
* In addition to the SSA Denial form, please remember to bring your valid passport and valid I-94 permit, any other original immigration documents in your possession, and proof of Georgia residency.

[Junkie Brewster]

103. Thank you for proving my point

You don't need to be a citizen to get a Georgia driver's license. And if you have a Georgia driver's license, then you can easily get licensed in another state, including Arizona.

[Confusious]

107. Really? Your point?

Confusious (1000+ posts)
19. Try again
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 06:36 PM by Confusious
You already have to show 3 forms of identification at the polls in Arizona.

Drivers license
Voter registration
A bill from your residence, with your name on it.

Last time I went to vote, I only had two. I had to go back home a get a bill.

Junkie Brewster (259 posts)
52. None of those prove you're a legal resident N/T

Confusious (1000+ posts)
Your drivers license does
You have to prove legal residence when you get it in Arizona.

Junkie Brewster (259 posts)
76. No it doesn't
All you have to have is a driver's license issued by another state, a W-2 and a bank card, and you can get a driver's license in Arizona.

Really? That was your point? Goalposts, meet the moon.

The point was "legal residence" not citizenship. That was my point. You seem to have gotten lost.

[Junkie Brewster]

110. You didn't know legal residency expires?

Really?



Seriously?



Wow.

[Confusious]

112. You're just bouncing

Not staying on topic, which just proves two things:

1. You have no argument
2. This is pointless.

[EFerrari]

26. Agreed. n/t

[MellowDem]

32. No, you still haven't figured it out...

the real reason behind that law was to throw a bone to the Republican base before mid-terms by passing a law that looks like it is doing something but actually isn't going to solve any problem related to illegal immigration. Which is the point, because Republicans know their business backers LOVE illegal immigration. Think of it as another form of "deregulation", but more like no regulation.

[smoogatz]

54. That was part of it, sure.

It helps those who employ undocumented workers if those workers are frightened and intimidated, too. All happy side effects, but I'm convinced that the real intent here is to suppress the Latino vote.

[MellowDem]

70. I don't think it will happen...

There are much more effective ways of suppressing votes out there that are much less obvious, if that's what they were attempting in the first place. As it is, this law has surely motivated more Latinos to vote than would have otherwise. In fact, I think we'll see an above average showing of Latinos voting in this mid-term in Arizona.

[wolfgangmo]

66. Not to be a complete gutter snipe, but I was talking to a friend

who is a nationally recognized expert (she trains police department, ATF, FBI, etc) on child abduction, and sexual abuse, etc.

She told me that it makes sense that business owners don't want immigration reform or amnesty or any rational regulation that would actually hold business owners accountable. Why pay for a hooker when you can hire an illegal and turn her into your own personal sex slave? It's the republican way.

[MellowDem]

73. Exactly...

and when you see the articles about business owners complaining about how the new law will hurt the economy, you know why it is such a concern to them. It is true that things such as labor rights, safety regulations, liveable wages, etc. can all hurt the bottom line.

[blondeatlast]

105. Good point. It may well backfire, though (I hope). nt

[seattle_blue]

44. Nail on the head

I agree with everything in your post, but I'd like to go one further. It also gives the police powers to arrest anyone. For example, let's say a cop wanted to bring you in but they had nothing on you. They could see a Canadian penny on your dash or a Euro in your wallet. Boom, they can bring you in. Papers please.

[Confusious]

121. boom. Lawsuit for illegal arrest.

A drivers license is valid ID for this law.

Boom. Boom. Boom. Couple of mill please.

[ChazII]

53. Vote by mail. n/t

[closeupready]

58. Latinos could shut down the polls if they showed up en masse, right?

Thus, wouldn't this law be counterproductive?

[davidinalameda]

89. good point

makes lots of sense

[Desertrose]

108. Yup. Among other reasons too. But this one is major.

[HopeHoops]

122. You're late. That was obvious all along.

[underpants]

125. Dualism and heading off the foreign labor from organizing & exposing the lie the white people bought

[DearAbby]

127. DING DING DING

Yeepers

[pinboy3niner]

129. I hate to go OT here, but...

Every time I see your sig line, it make me:rofl:.

[unc70]

131. Rehnquist involved in AZ vote suppression back in 1964

Here is an interesting discussion of ongoing efforts in AZ and elsewhere with further background on Rehnquist involvement in AZ. It is by Joe Conason at Salon.com

http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/conason/2004/10/29/injustice/index.html

[newtothegame]

132. I'm sure it's a combination of alot of things.

There ARE people living near the border who ARE scared. That's a fact. Pretending like everyone in AZ is racist and that there's no reason to be scared of border coyotes carrying drugs and guns is just plain foolish.

But there is also racism, and ignorance, and a host of other issues that have brought about this law. Repukes see the world in black and white; we don't need to do the same.

[Kablooie]

133. But don't you have to be legal with a social security number to vote?

Seems like the least likely place to find illegals.

[mmonk]

135. Yes. They have a history on that issue as well.

http://americancommentary.wordpress.com/2010/05/01/arizona-government-officials-dabble-in-fascist-legal-tactics-goal-could-be-to-continue-the-republican-party-practice-of-minority-voter-suppression-on-election-day/


And racists are involved as well.