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My Fear Factor - Does Oil EVER biodegrade and Is This It? Basically forever?

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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:57 PM
Original message
My Fear Factor - Does Oil EVER biodegrade and Is This It? Basically forever?
Let me preface my thoughts with this:

I pray that there is some hope, But I am losing it.

Bear with me: I am a writer and mostly here I just rant or argue - but these events are deeply fearsome to me and sad and I do not want to be in denial about it. I need, like that oil, to vent because the pressure is too much and I need some release. So i rise and spill, or rather, effluze:

When I was a kid my sister and her husband and their kids had a place in the keys, a little fishing joint in Marathon. Not too far from Bahia Honda (which is a wildlife refuge among other things near the seven mile bridge)

My grandma and uncles lived in Miami and my uncle was a birder - took me to the Everglades and we watched the birds all the way down to Flamingo. Gators and Crocs too.

I have never been to the Islands in the Caribbean - to me paradise was always the Florida Keys, Big Cypress, Anhinga Trail, Panthers (yeah real panthers), Bahia Honda, Big Pine, Key Deer on No Name, Mangrove Mama's (Hippy seafood and reggae and margaritas and joints out back under the Banana tree). I picked mangoes and avocados and papaya and sold watermelon as a teenager at Sunset at mallory Square for a quarter a slice with the Conch's from conch village (a shanty town then now something more catchy). I'd snorkel at Fort Jackson where they have artificial reefs with real coral growing (fierce wizardly Barracuda and aquamarine green azure pink coral parrot fish and manta rays and Big scary eels and SCHOOLS of things like clownfish and engelfish and which you need an underwater scorecard to even remember them all in every color and shape imaginable - like meteors and showers of fireworks they pranced and swarmed) --- and I scavenged scrap metal on the (illegally( military proving grounds where we recovered brass fittings from ammo dumps on the islands where they tested handgrenades (aluminum full of shrapnel buried in pits 20 feet across) and spearfished off Christmas Tree Island for Grouper drinking pineaplle wine on the boat of some Cubam refugees who'd escaped to the Keys. Saw three waterspouts dancing together beautifully, twisted around like a cotillion before they smashed into the neighboring island and rained and stormed down on us with salt, gulf, water pouring down from the spouts.

As the years went by and I had kids I's take them back. Go get devoured by mosquitoes in the Mahogany hammocks of the Vast Salt Marshes, look at the gators lolling, the anhinga, the roseate spoonbills maybe, ibis and great blue herons - patient, watchful, observant, fishing, like great tiny dinosaurs, predators from millions of years past, lurching at their prey, tossing it.

I watched the Pellys. The gracefully humorous brown pelicans or gray ones. Their huge pouches full of salt water and chum , like seagulls, you can feed them and they appreciate it They looked like they were laughing and they were like majestic monsters when they flew - graceful and strange and absurd.

There was a dolphin harbor (and I used to go to the Seaquuarium where the original Flipper was filmed and see Flipper, REALLY< dance and jump and chatter and play and smile out of the Miami seashore outer banks (Key Biscayne) near Pig Pine and there were a mated pair who lived there, but were free to come and go. But they LIKED hanging out with the humans and they would come near and let you pat them as they swam by from the shore, or dock, and occasionally they would head out for a few days and then come back cause the chum was free and the people were amused (or maybe we were amusing to them too because we loved them).

I read a post in the prayer to the Spaghetti Monster, Goddess or God thread by a weeping NorthofDenali who says that twenty years later the Exxon Valdez crude death sludge is STILL there. It is STILL awful.

And I thought: If a plastic bag can last a thousand years. How long will tar sludge last? How long will a thick muck of viscosity move around and will it simply EVER decompose or decay? Nah. It doesn't. It will break aprt but just into more and more tiny visuous pieces of illness and death.

These thick wastes of sludge from all the waste which has been oozing down into that deepness and pressure for HOW MANY MILLIONS OF YEARS? is NOT going away.

What is going away is our earth, our paradises, our joy, our memories, our palm trees.

When I drive down I like to go to the Native archeological site at Crystal River on the west coast and look for Manatee. I used to sytop at the Micosukee craft shops (before the casinos) and last year I took my teenage kids, and daughter's boyfriend and we camped on manatee Lake and in the park and near Bahia Honda at the Aquaranch where you can swim with HUGE Cobia in a primordial experience unlike anything I can imagine, They are like giant catfish and you pet them and be careful because they are ancient and monstronomous (and apparently tasty) and we pet the baby sharks in the shark pool.

And I hear St Pete's and Tampa can SMELL the wretched chemical smell of oil and I think back to changing my oil last month and how my hands stank and the smell made me wretch and I could not get the slippery ooze and grease off of me - and I wonder what kind of art this would make Dali create (for his Museum in St. Petersburgh is on the Bay and surely the hell will smell there and the black sheen will coat the docks by his sculptures of time , a clock, standing still or melting on a park bench on the dock. It is unreal. Surreal. Bizarre, It will be revolting. Would Dali have shined his moustache with that sheen? Would he have cried? Would he have?

And the Florida Museum of the Holocaust - there in St. Petersburgh, will the odors there remind visitors of the smell of the petrochemical plants of the Buna, of Bergen Belsen and Buchenwald and Oswitz, Upper Silesian oil and mineral fields exploited by the Bushes and the Rockefellers and Morgans and Esso and most probably BP and Aramaco (since the Arabs with oil deal also had deals with the Swine and EVERYBODY did business with them too - but especially the oil comapnies BECAUSE Auschwitz was a PetroChemical plant and MUST HAVE SMELLED< aside from the Creamatoria (which are probably coming next for the "natural" disposal of corpses like dolphins and Pellys and turtles and whales and bluefin tuna because they will smell like shit too soon along with the little birds and rotten decaying eggs).

Will people remember (if they were in the Shoah there) that the smells were not too different from the fascist petrochemical cartel ops at the slave camps wit their synthetic oil and tires and munitions and pharmaceuticals.

Of course WE will not remember because we were NOT there.

We are HERE. And the memories NOW will be of nausea and death and inaction and greed and the folly of "reasonableness, appeasement and looking forward and not back. of letting Cheney Bush halliburton and the Oil Companies get away with a Naiziist Naziphilic raping and despoiling of the earth.

For Capitalism. For Fascism. For Greed.

My beautiful places will be almost all gone. Maybe forever. Certainly most of my lifetime yhey will be crippled and smeared (tarballs will always be sticking to our feet).

Will it EVER break down? Ever? Its been there 65 million years hasn't it. Can it EVER be washed away?

Can ANY of us be washed clean of this? Can our President?

Can humanity?

Or do we just need to turn to the drak oil sooner rather than later and let the Earth heal herself with the plague of human beings forever silenced and buried?

Just asking. I think its pretty much over.

Please tell me I am wrong.

Or raise a toast to what was a pretty sweet place at times (just ask papa Joe - he knew - and he revelled in it).

No more.


I know that plastic stays in the environment for many many years.
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burnsei sensei Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:06 PM
Original message
This is an excellent question.
I have yet to see the long term issues addressed concerning this disaster.
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
37. I found this link on fast acting oil-eating microbes. Very interesting!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes oil is biodegradable
and this, though not natural, is an asphalt volcano, and they occur in nature.

There are bacteria that love the stuff, and eat it

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/05/oileating_bacte_1.php

It just takes a while...

And in it's natural state nature actually is able to process it.

By the way, here is info on the ones off the Cali coast

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100426-asphalt-volcanoes-domes-california-underwater/

They were pretty much part of the landscape.

Will it take time? Yes... and perhaps longer than a human life time. But the reality is that the gulf will recover... life is far more resilient than humans want to even comprehend.

Right now it's not good, but the gulf will certainly recover.

And yes for some I am too glib, suffice it to say I am not thinking in terms of ten years (though that is the time it took for the damage from the Ixtoc to mostly recover) but in terms of a couple of human life times.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. A COUPLE OF HUMAN LIFETIMES??? Oh - that's nice.
But how can we EVER recover from the experience.

How can i EVER take my kids swimming by the seven mile bridge again or snorkeling at the coral wildlife sanctuaries offshore (Peenkamp) when they are all soaked in oil,

How LONG will it take these coral reefs t recover?

A COUPLE of Human Lifetimes...

and so MAYBE, my grandchildren or great grandchildren MIGHT see something like it one day not in a museum or artifically reconstructed.

IF

IF IF

There are NO MORE such events. such spewing, such death.

IF we even survive anpother generation or two.

PLEASE do not be glib, Nadin. We are really really really totally fucked. It may not yet be TOTAALY ruined.

But it is for the bluefin and some whale species and pelicans and turtles. They may be DONE. Forever. Perished. Extinct (well maybe to be replicated a la splice or Dolly or Jurassic Park)

I understand your point.

The earth will recover one day (as a whole). Some species will survive. We will for a while at least so ...

I guess everything's okay.

i feel better now.

Actually, i am not.

I am getting sadder...

Two or three (or maybe four or five or six) generations...?

MAYBE?

I am really lost here...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. That is a worst case scenario
given that it took TEN years for the mess in Campeche to recover...

But it will not be FAST, and Americans in particular don't have any fucking patience. These are warmer waters than Alaska and light crude might be easier to process. But life will recover...

And you asked... you got a serious answer, and the serious answer is that life will recover.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Really?
Do you really see that conditions will improve.

That the quality of the Gulf can ever fully recover from this?

I simply do not believe that. It is irreparably harmed and forever altered; mutated, aborted; consigned to a faster death along with the rest of the planet which is dying as well from the obscenity called man. (figuratively speaking of course)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Then I cannot help you
but in GEOLOGIC TIME the gulf has had a far worst event in it's geologic history. You might want to google K-T impact... this is nothing, and yes it will recover.

Life is far more resilient than we humans like to give it credit to. It always does, it has over the last 4.5 billion years and five great extinctions. I might not be able to see it... but life will recover. Hell the actual worst case is that humanity goes extinct, with a slew of other species... life has time to evolve two more sentient species before the local star goes critical.

Perhaps my POV is driven by science, not emotion, as well as disaster relief, but in a very short (geologically speaking that is) term, that is ten to twenty years, that oil will be gone, as bacteria that evolved eons ago to eat it, since the stuff comes off onto the surface in places, and naturally mind you, will eat it up.

It took the Bay of Campeche ten years to recover... and I have eaten fish and shrimp from that bay... well after Ixtoc I. So yes it will recover.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. And I have to add one thing
this is oil au naturale. Plastics are processed and in the course of aeons I am sure life will evolve critters that will be able to process that too.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
43. I have a hot tub full of 30 weight care to take a dip.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. I did HAZMAT at one time
also that oil is PROCESSED, not the natural stuff that bacteria have been eating for oh eons.

Science is not your strong suit, is it?
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
42. Your delusional
Because you have eaten shrimp from Campeche Bay 10 years later everything is Oky Dokey. I have some beach front propery to sell you.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. Is your children learning?...nt
Sid
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. No I am not, these are facts
nature will recover.

It has and it will... or you are telling me that those oil eating bacteria don't exist?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
54. A very logical and credible view.
But I can also understand why its still not a very comforting thought for many. lol.

One of my favorite fictional characters is the one Jeff Goldblum plays in Jurassic Park, making similar statements about how life finds a way, and of course I find science fascinating in general.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
79. I get it, but there is also another thing
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 07:14 PM by nadinbrzezinski
not only do we have willful ignorance, but people are letting emotion take over. At least those who cannot afford emotion are not letting it take over.

Oh and yes the Gulf way of life is over... every disaster in any region changes life. Sometimes they are minor changes, most of the time they are significant. This one will generate 50 million ecological refugees, I am using not nice terms, but that is the truth.

I get it, but I prefer to look at the big picture and the big picture is that nature will recover in the end.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. 21 years for the fisheries of Prince Williams Sound, still counting
10 years Huh where did you pull up that figure , let me guess, It rhyme's with gas.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
59. I saw that on TV the other day
that 21 years after the Exxon Vadez disaster, some of the beaches are still dealing with oil. Sometimes you have to dig down a couple of inches, but it's still there.

So I'm also of the opinion that this one could take a couple, if not many, human lifetimes to remedy, and things may never be completely what they were.


sad and frightening.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
77. How hot is the water in Prince William Sound?
What is the average temp of water in the Gulf?

Here is a hint for you, the bacteria in Prince William Sound have only the SUMMER, to do their natural magic. The Bay of Campeche they were at it for 365 days a year and actually had blooms.

Again, science is not your strong suit, is it? Drama on the other hand...
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
89. The smell is the oil dispersing into the atmosphere.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-10-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
93. On NPR they said that the microbes devoured the Ixtoc oil in a very
short period of time. What were the on-going effects that lasted a decade? Was it from oil that made it to shore? From fish or other marine life that were killed?
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
56. But look at it this way. With toxins in the environment human lifetimes will go way down.
If our earth keeps getting more toxic a couple of human lifetimes might become 40 years. Between the pesticides that contaminate our food to corporations destroying our environment the lifetimes of human beings will certainly go down. So on the 'bright side' a couple of human lifetimes might only be 40 years in the future. Ahhh, a conservative utopia, free enterprise, no regulation, no laws, and we are left with the freedom to die young.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. Nah the worst case is already happening and has been ongoing for
the last three hundred years. On the bright side the conservatives will inherit the wind and then nothing.


We are in the midst of the sixth grand extinction... yes that means us.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Oil is made of biomass..... it is biodegradable.


You could have googled it quicker than typing that screed.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. How rude, and DU is usually not rude.
This was a poignant tribute to the beauty that we in the Gulf Region are losing. We dearly love all things natural in our Gulf, and it is like a horrible death in our family. Some compassion and sympathy should be given, not criticism and superciliousness.

I am ashamed of the posts by the DUers critical of this post. Wherever you live, just hope that a hurricane or tornado doesn't lift this oil and deadly dispersant onto your roof or garden.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Thank you
with humble gratitude (and a wry smile of amusement)

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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. I wish DU was not usually rude, BUT
Those exhibiting that trait on this thread are habitual offenders. If the forum were mine the door would leave an imprint on their ass on their way out. Alas, it is not.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
73. I agree with scheming demons.
OP asked a simple question and instead of looking for an answer, went off on an overly long rant based on the wrong assumption of the wrong answer to a question he/she apparently wasn't really interested in.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
44. I'm impressed by your goggling abilities, care to join me for a shrimp dinner
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 04:19 AM by bahrbearian
sauteed in crude.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
61. Hahahahaha...sweet irony!
And you could have pressed the "back" button or "ignore thread" button faster than replying to a topic you thought was pointless...


:+

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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here, read this
From Scientific American: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-microbes-clean-up-oil-spills

It will be degraded in the environment. Oil is just too reactive to stick around long. Where ever you find it on the surface, it's because it is upwelling from some recently fractured geologic formation (like east Texas, or mid-town Los Angeles at the Tar pits).

That said, it can take a long time or a short time. High temperature degrades it faster; that's why oil is still in Prince William Sound 20 years after Exxon Valdez. It's cold in Alaska and degradation takes place over a few weeks in the summer then shuts down the rest of the year. With the warm Gulf temperatures, it should happen faster.

The one thing man can do is to enhance the conditions for the oil to degrade. This means getting enough oxygen to the microbes that are going to eat it. Right now, there is not enough oxygen in the water to handle all that oil, and when it washes up into anoxic marshes, it's not going to get any there either. People should be demanding that boats get out on the water with air compressors and hoses, pumping air into the water. If it can't be sucked up and refined, it needs to be bioremediated.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Aren't there pockets of dead water (no oxygen) ALREADY where fishkills are the norm
in the Gulf.

I am not reassured. Plus there is MUCH more oil than Alaska AND these are migratory routes and salt marshes.

I see birth defects and sepcies destruction too.

You cannot heal that. Ever.

My question was actually more rhetorical though. The impact is PERMANENT, the biological dispersal takes a little longer.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Dead zones
The fertilizer runoff from the Mississippi has created deoxygenated zones of tens of square miles in recent summers, usually still in the continental shelf area. If the bacteria bloom off of this oil, this summer's dead zone could be from the TX-LA line all the way east to FL and much, much deeper than before.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. That is scary
I do not get the attempt to try and minimize the harm.

What is that?

Why?

Your post makes my point for me: dead zones can't really allow for the scavenging and consumption of the oil in any meaningful way, if at all. It just sits and either gets absorbed into the atmosphere or the soil or just keeps floating around mixed in the water.
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
38. I found this cool link on oil eating microbes. Really cool!
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. That is so Cool, but unfortunately is not going to save the Gulf of Cheney
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. Care to back that up - because that's where they did it before
Or did you want to just state an opinion without justification?
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
45. Great everything is Hunky Dory.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. Hey, that's life
Before there were flowers, there was a big, stinking dead corpse creating a LOT of fertilizer. What BP has done is to create a big, stinking, dead corpse that stretches from Texas to Florida. For a long time that area will be devoid of life, and bacteria will be the only things that can survive, eating from the edge in. However, as was pointed out above, if we wait a couple of human lifetimes, Earth will use all this fertilizer and life will come back.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yes it does. No, it won't last forever.
Edited on Sun Jun-06-10 10:16 PM by Canuckistanian
But that's not the point.

The point is that there is SO MUCH of it in a relatively small area (the northern Gulf coast). Natural forces WILL consume the oil, eventually.

But not before it does great damage to wildlife.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. two or three lifetimes is, like... to me.... basically forever
Edited on Sun Jun-06-10 10:28 PM by Liberation Angel
the impact is forever

the place is destroyed for maybe my kids lives (or permanently altered for their lives)

We will probably Always have tar balls and ooozey gook/slime shit and stained feet and bodies.

This is a paradise lost (for me and probably my kids - it was already HUGELY degraded since I was a teenager).

I guess I just wanted to paint my image of what we are losing and what it means to me.

But I am NOT as optimistic as many of you.

Not at all.
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zazen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. "screed?" OP "could have read something?" WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MEAN?
I cannot for the life of me understand the apparently easy cruelty of responses to someone who is talking about their personal experiences growing up in the area affected (or to be affected) by the oil catastrophes, and their attendant fears.

Do y'all care that your responses might brutally hurt someone who's feeling and being vulnerable, who's reaching out to other humans, which takes more courage than it does to just tear them down? Can you not think of ways to be more constructive if you have some issue about someone venting?

God help us if we can't even practice loving kindness in a community of mostly like-minded participants. I know it's hard and many of us are facing unusual daily losses, but that makes it all the more important to take a few minutes and some deep breaths so that we respond to people with compassion.




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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. If he is so delicate that his feelings are "brutally hurt"
by snarky message board responses then he probably should avoid message boards; that's part of the terrain.

Liberation Angel isn't that delicate, however -- his participation in spirited debate is not unknown around these parts. ;)
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. Funny, but I've never considered this board, a snarky one. NT
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. You haven't read much of Codines work
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. I'm snarky, but not nearly the snarkiest.
My snark is Amateur Hour compared to many.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
81. You new to GD?
Because, well, wow. I just don't know what to say.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks - I appreciate this, but I'm fine. The toxic sludge hurts much more than...
toxic comments.

unlike the seabirds and porpoises, it will wash over or off me with no harm.

I expected a few caustic snarks (I tend to attract them).

But damn i thought someone would appreciate the picture of paradise I experienced and the tragedy of that and identify or maybe really grasp what this means to many of us (even if we are not there now).

Really. Thanks, though.

I'm okay. At least about DU. It is to be, sadly, expected more or less.
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Hempathy Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. I guess you never heard of Ixtoc 1?
And I always assumed that writers would do a modicum of research before putting pen to paper fingers to keyboard.

But maybe that's only the good ones. :shrug:
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. yeah, that was a totally different scenario
150 feet down

far less crude and easier to reach.

The nearest analogy I've read is Nigeria where the salt marshes there are permanently destroyed and covered in oil FOREVER (unless it is simply destroyed and extirpated by machine)

Good writers also occasionally use rhetorical questions, figurative speech and allusions.

Plus, dammit, I wanted to talk about how hurt I am by the destruction,for the rest of my life, of my beloved Islands in the Stream which is now the BP Loop Current.
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Hempathy Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Far less crude?
Edited on Sun Jun-06-10 11:03 PM by Hempathy
Guess again.

(research really is all it's cracked up to be.)
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Okay - much easier to reach, nearer the surface, and
because BP has lied we do not know EXACTLY how much more oil is leaking in this accident as opposed to the previous one (but this one looks substantially larger by some estimates).

I do not really get why folks want to act like this is no big deal and there is not PERMANENT and irrevocable damage,

I suppose if there as a nuclear war and humanity wiped out, then the earth would eventually recover for the most part too.

Doesn't mean that it isn't permanent damage though.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. You don't have to do research to write prose or poetry, and this post
you denigrate was quite beautiful and poetic. Thankfully, not everyone on this board is a cranky oil monster. Me thinks thou dost not want to give up your ride, or do you work for an oil giant?
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
63. No surprise there
Gone.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. damn - TS'd
I hope I'm not the reason

I hate to see those pesky TS's.

Let the debates rage, i say!

I do...
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. link: Gulf damage will last 'for years if not decades'

Gulf damage will last 'for years if not decades'

Snorkeling along a coral reef near Veracruz, Mexico, in 2002, Texas biologist Wes Tunnell spotted what looked like a ledge of rock covered in sand, shells, algae and hermit crabs. He knew, from years of research at the reef, that it probably wasn't a rock at all. He stabbed it with his diving knife. His blade pulled up gunk.

"Sure enough, it was tar from the Ixtoc spill," Tunnell said.

Twenty-three years earlier, in 1979, an oil well named Ixtoc I had a blowout in 150 feet of water in the southern Gulf of Mexico. The Mexican national oil company Pemex tried to kill the well with drilling mud, and then with steel and lead balls dropped into the wellbore. It tried to contain the oil with a cap nicknamed The Sombrero. Finally, after 290 days, a relief well plugged the hole with cement and the spill came to an end — but only after polluting the gulf with 138 million gallons of crude.

snip

Ripple effects
Ecosystems can survive and eventually recover from very large oil spills, even ones that are Ixtoc-sized. In most spills, the volatile compounds evaporate. The sun breaks down others. Some compounds are dissolved in water. Microbes consume the simpler, "straight chain" hydrocarbons — and the warmer it is, the more they eat. The gulf spill has climate in its favor. Scientists agree: Horrible as the spill may be, it's not going to turn the Gulf of Mexico into another Dead Sea.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37535767/ns/us_news-washington_post

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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. Check this out - skip the beginning
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. Do you have a good feel good video of dispersant's too?
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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #48
65. I'd say this is very obviously the opposite of that. nt
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is a good article:
Snorkeling along a coral reef near Veracruz, Mexico, in 2002, Texas biologist Wes Tunnell spotted what looked like a ledge of rock covered in sand, shells, algae and hermit crabs. He knew, from years of research at the reef, that it probably wasn't a rock at all. He stabbed it with his diving knife. His blade pulled up gunk.
"Sure enough, it was tar from the Ixtoc spill," Tunnell said.

Twenty-three years earlier, in 1979, an oil well named Ixtoc I had a blowout in 150 feet of water in the southern Gulf of Mexico. The Mexican national oil company Pemex tried to kill the well with drilling mud, and then with steel and lead balls dropped into the wellbore. It tried to contain the oil with a cap nicknamed The Sombrero. Finally, after 290 days, a relief well plugged the hole with cement and the spill came to an end -- but only after polluting the gulf with 138 million gallons of crude.

That remains the worst accidental oil spill in history -- but the Deepwater Horizon blowout off the Louisiana coast is rapidly gaining on it.

The spill has now been partially contained with the cap that BP engineers lowered onto the mile-deep geyser Thursday night. That means roughly a quarter to half of the flow is being piped to a surface ship, the national incident commander, Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, said Saturday. BP hopes to improve the rate captured in coming days. If official government estimates are correct, 23 million to 47 million gallons of oil have spewed so far.

Ecosystems can survive and eventually recover from very large oil spills, even ones that are Ixtoc-sized. In most spills, the volatile compounds evaporate. The sun breaks down others. Some compounds are dissolved in water. Microbes consume the simpler, "straight chain" hydrocarbons -- and the warmer it is, the more they eat. The gulf spill has climate in its favor. Scientists agree: Horrible as the spill may be, it's not going to turn the Gulf of Mexico into another Dead Sea.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/05/AR2010060503987.html

It can take years, decades. Marshes are extremely sensitive but "cleaning" them can make them worse.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Is oil didn't biodegrade the oceans would be full of it by now 5 million barrels leak into oceans
Edited on Sun Jun-06-10 10:48 PM by Statistical
every year and that is from natural seepage. Thats 5 billion every millennium. 10 billion since that guy Jesus walked the earth. Undersea oil fields have been "leaking" for hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of years.

In recent years mankind has artificially spilled another couple million barrels a year into the waterways. Most of these via thousands of "small" leaks rather than a few super leaks.

Nature has evolved to consume that dense energy source. Certain microbes thrive in a hydrocarbon rich environment. They break the hydrocarbons down.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I love you. nt
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. This is ridiculous
you really need to cite some sourves.

You act as if this Gulf spill is just business as usual

oh wait...

Oh 0 _ I mean mother nature's business as usual.

But if you make claims like this you need to post links (I read links and sources)

See my scientific american link in this thread.

SOME particles do NOT completely break down. They do, however, disperse and spread (and cause mutations).

But, with a claim like this - you need sources which apply to a flow like this. Yeah some natural oil leaking is is "recycled" but there have been almost NOTHING like this one (Yeah, a few, maybe, but none exactly like this with the deep sea drilling) and the Gulf may partially recover but it will be forever altered and mutated by this event.

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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. check it out
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
49. Is your children learning?
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. Here is one answer (maybe never): Scientific American "How Long..."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-will-oil-spill-last

If anyone thinks that this will EVER fully recover (at least while humanity continues to exist) then they are denying reality.

This article clearly states that some areas have NEVER recovered from some major spills and that due to the deep water cold the stuff will be around for a LONG LONG TIME. Some areas will NEVER recover until the material is physically removed (and that will altere the environment in other ways so that it will need to be rebuilt).

Mutations of dna and extermination of species will occur and some populations might be reintroduced once the areas is cleaner, but will be wiped out in situ.

I see nothing which justifies the optimism of some on this thread.

Nor are there any easy answers which some of the smugger responders seem to think i am an idiot for not knowing.

The above article makes it pretty clear this is uncharted toxic territory.

Sure, it will be dispersed SOME day, but also so will the earth and the sun.

and jeex all I was really hoping for was some sympathy and props for my prosaic memories of the paradise I loved and fear losing forever (and extinction of, say, the manatees or crocs is pretty much forever, though, again, i guess you can always import or clone new ones and keep them in aquariums near the oily-fumed marinas for the tourists.


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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. As you know by now, I am from So. Louisiana. I honestly feel your pain.
Many of us here are so traumatized that we can hardly speak out loud about the horror that has overtaken us and spoiled our sunrises and sunsets, and the wonderful wildlife we revere.

To all of you who dare attempt appeasement, go straight to hell, where I hope you will be thrown into a pit of oil mixed with unimaginable additives and that your suffocation will be as long and painful as is the suffocation of our beautiful birds, fish and other gulf inhabitants. Although you collectively could care less, as you are without soul, I will refrain from praying for your betterment. If you pray, you should probably pray that God, if there is one, is not wrathful. Glad to be signing off of this disappointing, but ilucidating thread.

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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
57. I spent a lot of time in Lafayette
and environs..

Crawfish, gators, etouffe, zydeco,

New Orleans too.

Friends and lovers there (one fled Katrina and is still a refugee in Texas)

I appreciate your support and know, Juajen, that most of us here see the truth...

Destruction of humanity, of culture, of nature, it IS hell...

I said in my post that I have some small hopes and one of them is that this disaster be not quite so severe..

that there will be substantial recovery...

one day

but right now that looks like a long long way away and perhaps never in our lifetimes

so

Keep the faith

One thing I learned about folks down there is that they are resilient and they know how to shine and have a good time even in the face of dire troubles

We LOVE you Louisiana!

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Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
32. The Gulf recovered from Ixtoc..
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 12:25 AM by Feron
and that was still a much larger spill than this one.

The problem is that it is getting into the marshes and you can't clean those. I've read conflicting things about how well marshes recover from a spill. We'll certainly find out.

But yes, oil breaks down and a plus is that a warm Gulf will likely accelerate that process.

ETA: Exxon crude was different from Louisiana sweet crude. The less asphaltenes oil has, the better in a spill.

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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
50. Did it really?
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. I am from Florida and have been to places where you went
I lived in Homestead/Florida City for years. I know where you're coming from. I am horrified by this awful spill.

I rec'd and someone unrec'd. I don't understand why some DUers feel need to be rude.

I completely understand. I was a member of "Friends of the Everglades". I loved going to there and to the Keys, too.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. I'm shocked and disappointed when DUers dare to rudely UnRec a thread with which I agree. n/t
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
35. Take a look at my avatar - That's Florida Ibis
They often visited my backyard from the Everglades which was 3 miles away. I hope never to see them covered in oil. Seeing those pelicans covered in Oil in Gulf Coast is bad enough and sad. :(
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
70. I always thought it would always be there
it has degraded a lot since I was a kid, but at least the sun was shining and the water was sparkling and clear (for the most part) - the beaches were clean and the Everglades were awesome -- though a LOT less wildlife than I remembered as a kid.

For me just knowing it was there and trying to get back there made winters and life in general much more bearable.

I drove all the way from New York to the panhandle once to swim with my kids cause I had a little vacation and wanted them to see the white sand beaches and swim in the Gulf (we stayed all day and then had to head back North cause I had to start a new job (I'd been unemployed but got an advance on a major project and said I'd start in two weeks and packed up and went south.

Gas was 69 cents a gallon in Tallahassee (I had a compact too). Went to Savannah, the Okeefenokee (POGO POSSUM!), and the Meher Baba Center to camp near Myrtle Beach. A little over ten years ago.

I could not make it all the way to the Keys and Everglades but made it to the panhandle and man it was just beautiful after a hard and broke winter.

Just to give the experience of the Gulf Coast to my kids at a tender age was REALLY important to me (plus my Mom's peeps are from down home too so it was "roots" time as well)

I love the organic farms in Homestead (and they had their tragedy too with Andrew as well as the damn Nuclear plant poisoning the area there (Turkey Point), south of Miami0.

Tamiami Trail is like a twilight zone ride and back in the day the Miccosukee stuff was awesome to behold (alligator wrestling and airboat rides out to the Chikee Hammocks and craft islands in the swamps - just unbelieveable.

Favorite place in the world might possibly be "Robert is Here" (at least for an hour or so to get mango and sapodillas and Mamey shakes and cookout goodies and supplies and tupelo honey).

Homestead. The South. The Gulf. The Keys. The Sunsets. The clean Ocean breezes. Flying fish and leaping solphins


Oh the tragedies. And what beauty to be harmed.

I am sick over it and feel like already the fumes are reaching me through the ether...



,
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
55. Knowing about American's mental capacities and long term memory
This will be completely forgotten in about a year..
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. No it won't
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 09:16 AM by Liberation Angel
The exxon valdez is not forgotten and is still toxic in some areas.

Maybe those who are far away and who have their heads far enough up their asses to ignore this will do so.

But I think this will be in the news for many decades and for those who endure the suffering it will NEVER be forgotten or far from their minds.

At least after Katrina there could be a cleanup (slow and hard and sad but at least it ended).

This is just the beginning of the death and destruction which will continue for decades or much longer.

I expect tar balls from this spill to reach the Eastern Seabord, all of Florida, NC, SC, Georgia, Bermuda, even the UK, based on scientific models.

It might reach Long Island and New England and Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod (I am sure some tar balls and sludge will).

So I get your point.

But i do not think folks will be able to forget.

Some will just not be reminded as much (until they get that sticky shit on their bathing suits, ankles, and in their hair and crevices..).

One reason for my post (OP) - we CAN'T forget this and we MUST use all available resources to do ALL we can (and cease this oil and nuclear insanity - and coal insanity too)

we clean up the Gulf and the oil and sludge

and we clean up our environmental futures by REFUSING to bend and bow and submit ANY MORE to the energy cartels and fascist thugs of oil, nukes and coal profiteering and death (and this includes our fearless leader who needs to hammer this home for all humanity and for all time)
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
58.  I am no expert but leave the same gas in your lawn mower for a year and try to start it
Won't start. That gas in that little sealed gas tank may as well be water. So my opinion is that over time all petroleum products degrade. How much and how fast I don't have a clue.

Don
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
60. Thanks for this, Angel
And just try to ignore the BP enablers. Obviously they have never snorkeled in the Keys.
If they had, they'd know better than to tell us there is nothing to worry about.

The surface oil is not the biggest problem. It is the dispersant laced deepwater plumes under the horizon which will be there for ?a hundred years? killing almost all it touches.


Were I running an ad campaign for Florida, I'd be telling people to come on down, it will never be this good again. This is your last chance, better get down here before its gone.
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rotund1 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. Pardon, may I ask a question please? How does pointing out that oil is biodegradable
equate to 'enabling' BP? Aren't they two completely areas of discussion?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Are you a BP enabler?
If not, what the fuck do you care?

Have you ever snorkeled in the Keys?
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rotund1 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Sure, I have snorkled all around the world. Would you care to answer my question?
And thanks for the warm welcome. :D
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
82. So, you have been in the keys?
All around the world, eh?
Prince William sound, too?

Everything biodegrades... duh.

The BP enablers are those that are trying to soft sell this catastrophe. They enable BP to say: "So what"

If that's not you, good. But I find it hard to beleive, with what you say about being in the ocean, that you too wouldn't hate the idea of anyone soft selling this largest catastrophe ever to hit one of the most treasured bodies of water in the US.
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rotund1 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I've been in the keys many times, I lived in Florida for 22 years.
And yes, around the world, not necessarily at high latitudes...there isn't a lot of snorkling in Alaska...and NOT everything biodegrades, only organic compounds do. I guess you're not a chemist or scientist...and I hate the fact that this accident is fouling the waters but you got all defensive about my simple question that you still have not answered...how does pointing out that OIL biodegrades have ANYTHING to do with 'enabling' or 'excusing' or doing anything else to defend the company that caused the mess?
Please look up "non sequitur".

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Your question
To my statement of:" And just try to ignore the BP enablers"

Was:

" How does pointing out that oil is biodegradable equate to 'enabling' BP?"

You don't want an answer. You asked a stupid question that you just made up as a trick.
The BP enablers in this thread, with their excuses and soft selling of the catastrophe is what I was responding to when I told Angel " And just try to ignore the BP enablers"

So, what do you think of the gist of my post:
"The surface oil is not the biggest problem. It is the dispersant laced deepwater plumes under the horizon which will be there for ?a hundred years? killing almost all it touches."

Do you think those plumes will rapidly biodegrade?
Is the statement incorrect?
You have put yourself up as a judge of what "a chemist or scientist" might be, so now the onus is on you to get on with the science, quitting your stupid game of asking stupid made up questions.

Oh, btw, so you know what MM78 means?
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. I am thinking of going there to cover it as a journalist just to see it and
maybe see if I can help save it somehow.

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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
67. Yes, oil does biodegrade...
no, it is not forever.

Sid
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
80. Eventually, unfortunately for us and the oceans
I think the byproduct is CO2 which the seas are already overburdened with. Between deforestation and polluting waters we're heading toward an oxygen problem. We're destroying our world's lungs and ours will follow or lead considering our size.
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rotund1 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. If we don't 'flip' the atmosphere to a runaway greenhouse situation,
the carbon and oxygen will reach another equilibrium. Eventually. One problem with that, of course, is that it might not be conducive to mammals which leaves us between death and extinction. Eventually. It's all a matter of time scale anyway since there will come a time when the sun expands to consume the earth and later on when the universe either expands into cold nothingness or somehow reverses its expansion leading to a Big Crunch. I prefer not to worry too much about stuff more than a few thousand years anon. :-)
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
85. Ixtoc was in 1979
That was a very large spill, and if I remember correctly hit over 150 miles of US coastline. The oil gradually broke down in the environment. A lot of people have never even heard of Ixtoc.

Of course we don't yet know how long this one will run (Ixtoc took 10 months to finally completely plug) and how much oil will be in the Gulf in the end. By the end, Ixtoc was supposed to have dumped three million barrels (x 42 = gallons) into the Gulf.

But it will break down. Not to say that this isn't an environmental disaster, because it is. I have read that warm-water environments are a lot quicker to recover from major spills. I don't KNOW that is true, but the place where I read it (in connection with the East Timor incident last year) had a bunch of comparisons of different spills.

So 10-15 years?
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
86. I share your grief
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 08:19 PM by marions ghost
and fears, Liberation Angel. I'm a mid-Atlantic coastal native who gets what you're saying all too well. You have written so eloquently about what is at stake in this fragile and already seriously degraded ecosystem.

Will it come back? I would say, ONLY if big changes are made. Leaving it all to the "oil eating bacteria" doesn't really answer the question. Though well meant, such generalities being taken as solutions in this case only gives impetus to the exploiters who would change NOTHING about the various environmental assaults on the Gulf. It's a lot more complex than people realize. This is one big huge experiment now, and there's no way to rationalize away your very legitimate fears at the moment. I think you've done enough homework to have a good handle on the right questions, if not the answers. Everyone wants to know, can it come back?

Here's the real answer, the only honest answer at this point: It depends. There are countless variables.

Keep writing, expressing your thoughts. Some of us appreciate your beautiful love song to this place. It really took me right there. :thumbsup: :hug: We have to stop this insanity.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. You GET the Point, Right?
I know you do:

The fact is that we are )many of us here at DU and elsewhere) have been treating these issues as if --- "don't worry bout a thing, every little thing gonna be alright" (because microbes will eat it all eventually - which is not even really true)

We are in an acute and dire set of environmental disasters which are ongoing. Deadly. Existential threats, actually (certainly for many creatures and probably many many humans who will get sick and get cancers and die from this eventually - just like the cleanup workers at ground zero after 9-11)

The petrochemicals like benzene and toluene will get in the food chain (if it doesn't outright kill things and even if it does the remains will be consumes as well) Mutations will occur.

As with nuclear radiation spewed from operating nuclear plants on a daily basis (but invisible, tasteless and odorless) this shit will kill and mutate humans and othert living things for generations (some changes to dna may permanently alter gene lines of the affected).

So while I lament and weep for my beloved azure waves and waving coconut palms and the balmy caribbean sea air and pristine glistening diamond beaches

my MAIN concern is what appears to me to be a certain lethargy and lazines and apathy and denial and psychic numbing (or deliberate misinformation from trolls too).

My flourish here was an attempt to use what artistry I have to make this PERSONAL and meaningful and TRUE and DESPERATE.

Because this is a desperate situation. Not just BP and the Gulf but globally. The oil wars, the nuke rads in the fish in Vermont, the drone attacks, the hate, the "reasonable" responses, the calmness of FAILING to see the real dngers and true costs and terrible misery and harm and pain and suffering to come for ALL of us (but especially for our children).

So thanks for the support.

There is much to be done. Like the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers I feel like the guy screaming "They're HERE! DO Something!"

The apocalyptic rains of the viles of death are here. So it seems.

And some poet needs to recognize that. And tell others. Before it really IS all over and too late to "repent" of our consumption and love of filthy lucre.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-08-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. No Hollywood ending
Edited on Tue Jun-08-10 11:04 AM by marions ghost
I'm afraid. This Reality Show is REAL scary.

Artist/writers/poets/musicians have to put the dry facts about it into a place of feeling, acknowledging the loss and grief. Describing what really is at stake. And saying it over and over. This is a national disaster of huge proportions that cannot be denied. The awake must help the sleeping....
it's all too tempting to sit back and wait for the Hollywood ending.

Time to wake up...the theatre's on fire, folks.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Over and over: Repetition is the best mantra when the sky is falling and no one notices
The refrain must always be: we must CHANGE this.

Or we will not survive...
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-10-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
92. kick
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