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U.S. Soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan are not "heros" Nor are they defending my rights.

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:26 PM
Original message
U.S. Soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan are not "heros" Nor are they defending my rights.
They are merely cannon fodder.

They are not fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan to spread democracy and human rights.

They are not fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan to defend and protect my "free speech" and other democratic rights we have under our Constitution.

The GI's are fighting in wars that have been built on a mountain of lies and deception. And they are the ones who have been misled and betrayed more than anyone, subjected to constant pro-war and right-wing propaganda by the military brass, corporate media and right-wing talking heads.


-------------------------------------------


Heroes don't come wholesale
By Andy Rooney
Tribune Media Services
04/08/2004

Most of the reporting from Iraq is about death and destruction. We don't learn much about what our soldiers in Iraq are thinking or doing. There's no Ernie Pyle to tell us and, if there were, the military would make it difficult or impossible for him to let us know.

It would be interesting to have a reporter ask a group of our soldiers in Iraq to answer five questions and see the results:

1. Do you think your country did the right thing sending you into Iraq?

2. Are you doing what America set out to do to make Iraq a democracy, or have we failed so badly that we should pack up and get out before more of you are killed?

3. Do the orders you get handed down from one headquarters to another, all far removed from the fighting, seem sensible, or do you think our highest command is out of touch with the reality of your situation?

4. If you could have a medal or a trip home, which would you take?

5. Are you encouraged by all the talk back home about how brave you are and how everyone supports you?


Treating soldiers fighting their war as brave heroes is an old civilian trick designed to keep the soldiers at it. But you can be sure our soldiers in Iraq are not all brave heroes gladly risking their lives for us sitting comfortably back here at home.

Our soldiers in Iraq are people, young men and women, and they behave like people — sometimes good and sometimes bad, sometimes brave, sometimes fearful. It's disingenuous of the rest of us to encourage them to fight this war by idolizing them. We pin medals on their chests to keep them going. We speak of them as if they volunteered to risk their lives to save ours but there isn't much voluntary about what most of them have done. A relatively small number are professional soldiers. During the last few years, when millions of jobs disappeared, many young people, desperate for some income, enlisted in the Army.

About 40 percent of our soldiers in Iraq enlisted in the National Guard or the Army Reserve to pick up some extra money and never thought they'd be called on to fight. They want to come home.

We must support our soldiers in Iraq because it's our fault they're risking their lives there. However, we should not bestow the mantle of heroism on all of them for simply being where we sent them. Most are victims, not heroes.

Read the full article at:

http://www.wmal.com/goout.asp?u=http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2004/04/08/newsopinion/hjjfjfjbhghbid.txt


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Soldiers Are Not Heros
A Facebook Group

This group is intended to point out the absurdity of the many groups on Facebook that portray all soldiers to be heroes and shower the armed forces with unconditional praise.

Putting on a soldiers uniform does not make you a hero. Supporters of the group generally agree that the wars that our armed forces are participating in at the present time and in recent years are unnecessary and unjust. Therefore we don't feel that we should be pressured into offering "support" to people fighting and killing innocent people for causes that we don't believe in.

We recognise that the government are mainly to blame but also think that members of the forces need to take responsibility for their own actions in choosing to support these causes. Soldiers have free will and the opportunity to not sign/re-sign up if they feel they are being asked to participate in an unjust war, so they also deserve a proportion of the blame if they choose to stay.

We also find it amusing how so many of those who claim to "protect our freedoms of speech" tell us to shut up, or be duffed up.

Soldiers are not heroes. They can be heroes, they can act heroically, they can do heroic things - but the act of putting on a uniform for the next so many years does not make your life more important than others, it does not make your opinions and insights more worthy of respect than others, it does not exempt you from moral judgement. It does not make you a hero. And we should not fall prey to hero-worship.” http://whoviating.blogspot.com/2008/06/heroics.html

We are peacefully protesting against the groups protesting (with needless threats) against our peaceful protests against the forces!

THIS GROUP ISN’T A SOLDIER HATRED GROUP, JUST A GROUP AGAINST THE HERO WORSHIP OF SOLDIERS.


http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2216265717


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General Smedley Butler
United States Marine Corps


Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" and "Old Gimlet Eye", was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America during the Banana Wars, the Caribbean and during World War I, he served in France. By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism. He is one of 19 people to be twice awarded the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

In addition to his military achievements, he served as the Director of Public Safety in Philadelphia for two years and was an outspoken critic of U.S. military adventurism. In his 1935 book War is a Racket, he described the workings of the military-industrial complex and, after retiring from service, became a popular speaker at meetings organized by veterans, pacifists and church groups in the 1930s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

WAR IS A RACKET by
General Smedley Butler

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Read the full article at:

http://www.historyisaweapon.org/defcon1/warracket.html
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. As a former sailor, I agree.
Military people are not some exceptional group of people, they are just another stiff just like the next guy.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Same here. (nt)
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Meh...
I see alot of inferiority complex in the OP. Some need to drag others down due to their own lack of accomplishment.

As for you... your mileage may vary but if I am given a task and then told I can choose between a random cross section of 18-25 year olds from the civilian side of America or I can receive a group of young Soldiers...? It's not even a choice. There is literally no task they would not be equal or better suited for than their "peers."
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. I would really like to test that theory.
So, if I understand you correctly, soldiers are a superior group of people then their peers?

What anadotal proof do you have for this claim?

As I said, they are no better then the next guy. Just another stiff. The military has some good people, it is also its share of absolute idiots.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. our kids are being sent to protect corporate profits. thats all.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep, these wars are not like the second world war, that was actually necessary for world peace. n/t
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. That was probably the last time our military fought for our freedom
Though having a strong defense is necessary, we shouldn't be using it unless absolutely necessary.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's sad when the troops are used as pawns in a political fight.
I think they deserve some respect.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Agree . . . new attempt at perpetual war . . . control of ME/Oil . . Heroin . . .
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VAliberal Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent
Cannon fodder. Victims. Exactly.

I'm quite tired of the canard, "If you don't stand behind the troops, you're welcome to stand in front of them," and the fascist mentality behind it.

Thanks for the post.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can agree with Mr. Rooney on the following:
"We must support our soldiers in Iraq because it's our fault they're risking their lives there. However, we should not bestow the mantle of heroism on all of them for simply being where we sent them. Most are victims, not heroes."

But if and when we are attacked on our shores they will be the ones who will defend this country. There will be those Militia minded groups who think they can defend it and they might give their lives doing it but it will be our Navy, Marines, Army and Air Force that do it make no mistake.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Or the government may use the military against the people as it has done in the past.

Remember how General McCarthur led troops to drive the World War I veteran "bonus" marchers out of Washington, D.C.?

And remember or read about how often the National Guard and federal troops were used to break up mass demonstrations and defeat striking workers?

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I recall somthing about Kent State too. n/t
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Hempathy Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. + to the infinite.
but...but....I thought that EVERYONE who puts on ANY military or police uniform is AUTOMATICALLY a HERO.

The word no longer has any real meaning.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. They're cannon fodder for politicians and those who pay the politictians. K&R
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well
Neither my daughter or my son consider themselves "heros". Or cannon fodder.

What I think is that I'm extremely grateful my son is safely back from his tour in Iraq--just the other day in fact--and that my daughter--also safely back from a tour in Afghanistan-- left the army after 9 years a few years back.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. I hate that threads like this get support.
If you have a problem with the wars we are currently fighting take it up with the politicians who sent the military to fight.

The military does not control the wars they fight, they follow the orders of the elected government they swore to serve. It is not fair to hold the wars the military is told to fight against them. For every war that there is controversy about there is another that most agreed to be fought. The military has no say in which ones they fight in.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Are you familiar with the anti-Vietnam war movement organized by GI's
at military installations in all services across the United States and Europe and the anti-war activity and actions by soldiers in Vietnam?

The active duty anti-war soldiers movement was growing and becoming a powerful force, especially in Vietnam, and the military brass couldn't destroy or stop it.

I urge you to study the anti-war "send us home now" U.S. soldiers movement that swept across Europe and the Far East right after World War II, in 1945 and 1946.

GI's can and have organized against wars and potential wars. Soldiers do have a say and do act once they know the truth. It's the politicians and military brass that insists they must follow orders, even illegal ones, while they conceal the soldiers proud anti-war history against unjust wars.
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Obamaknowzz Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Excellent, there is also Iraq Veterans against the war.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. I hate that guys like you volunteer to slaughter people all over the world in order
to enforce global enslavement.

At least the Romans made life better for the peons in the lands they conquered.


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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Check this out.

Here's some more information regarding GI's taking action to get home back in 1946.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8507667
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-06-10 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. "THIS GROUP ISN’T A SOLDIER HATRED GROUP, JUST A GROUP AGAINST THE HERO WORSHIP OF SOLDIERS"
Guess what it means when you have to say it in all caps?

It usually means you are.

It's like Jennifer Lopez, if she has to sing, "I'm still Jenny from the block", guess what? She's not from the block anymore.

:thumbsdown:
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Actually, Jenny was never "from the block".
Upper middle class, east coast. Spent most of her youth taking dancing classes.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. So your position is that it's either or?
Either you agree the troops are heroes or you are against them?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. For individuals absolutely not, but for groups I think it may be pretty close to that.
There are certainly a great many individuals who don't think being a soldier makes one a hero but don't in any way hate them (I am one).

But a group dedicated to spreading the message "soldiers are not heroes" is going to find itself under all sorts of pressures to move in the direction of promoting hatred of soldiers, for a variety of reasons (the two main ones being that it will attract people who do, and that human nature being what it is the desire to fight back against critics will generally lead to searching for and promoting facts that reflect badly on soldiers and a siege mentality).

It's much, much harder for an institution or group to promote sensible, nuanced, balanced views than it is for an individual to hold them, I think.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Blame the politicians, not the servicemen...
... with the 'poverty draft' and lies from sources like Fox news our servicemen and women are victims.

Yes, some are also heroes, risking their lives to save the guy next to them. During my service many GI's were vehemently anti-war, but would put their lives on the line for a buddy.

Don't blame the victims.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. The media portrays GI's as all pro-war who support whatever wars the politicians send them to fight.

And part of the pro-war media propaganda suggests they are all "heros" fighting to defend our "free speech" and to stop terrorists and export democracy around the world.

It's of course true that most GI's try to protect each other during combat. That's always been true, even among the most anti-war soldiers. And frequently they've have to defend themselves not just from "enemy soldiers" but from their own military brass.

How many military units did the brass lose control of in Vietnam? They didn't engage. They lived.

But, we're talking about large scale and significant actions here, not individual acts that can lead to isolation and victimization by the brass.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
21. As a Progressive I've known this all my adult life
It's the reason I'm against War. At some point, if we ever get intelligent enough we will simply stop war and deal with problems in a way that will actually solve them. It will be very difficult but then peace is a difficult thing to maintain. But it beats maintaining war which is mostly for profit for the few who create it.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. I've always wondered why anyone would enlist in a post-Vietnam society
... and no, I'm not seeking war defenders/justifiers to provide examples, since in my estimation enlisting to get $ for college doesn't exactly equate to fighting for A Cause.

Support anti-war Vets!

http://www.ivaw.org/
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Often because they're poor and have no alternatives.
We have a 'poverty draft'. Shame on us.
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howaboutme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
25. War = Commercial Interests
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 08:23 AM by howaboutme
It has nothing to do with defending our country or our "freedoms". The "elitists" (you know, the ones with all the $$$, graduate from Ivy League, and who never get get their fingernails dirty, and have never had a uniform on) convince young Americans to risk their lives for the interests of a few.

Smedley had it right. War is a racket and it it BS.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hence the enormous effort to strategically frame 'war$' within disinfo & volatile emotions
Problem/Reaction/Solution
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. I have corresponded with several soldiers and their stories are different...
When a mother and father or other family member loses their loved one in one of Bush's Wars they rarely speak out against the war. It's not because they support the war, it's because they have to justify their child having their lives put in danger or lost. How can any parent live with the fact that their child is at war for no reason at all? Or to die in war for absolutely nothing?

Soldiers do not have free speech. If they dare speak out they can suffer all kinds of consequences. But when they write in privacy they do disclose their doubts or even opposition to the war. And when I read their letters it is obvious they don't believe they are in Iraq or Afghanistan to 'free them' or to 'keep the US safe'. They know that is complete bullshit. And it's like all of the soldiers I correspond with have learned to write in a way where their real message is 'between the lines'.

NOTE: If you aren't currently doing so there are a lot of organizations where you can 'adopt a soldier'. You can write or send them care packages. They are greatly appreciated by the soldiers. It's lonely when you are away from home and it is even worse when you are in two countries that never once threatened the United States. Please volunteer to send them letters and packages.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. There was a well organized GI's "free speech movement" during the Vietnam war.

The civilian anti-war movement organized legal and other support for active-duty "GI's Against the War" organizations based at military installations in the United States and abroad.

Soldiers do have limited free speech rights. And the GI's learned how to effectively excercise their free speech rights without needless victimization during the Vietnam war. There were of course attempts by the brass to isolate and repress the organizations but generally they were not successful.

And the brass could do nothing to stop the anti-war protests by hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers after World War II.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
30. Soldiers, as individual people...
...seem to have more camaraderie and sense of community then we progressives do. I'm sure that is their environment, where their lives depend on each other but then again I always thought EVERYbody depended on everybody else. I need my doctor as much as I need Russell Stover.

Just look at DU. We tear at each other constantly in some of the nastiest and pettiest ways...and we're supposed to be on the same side.

Soldiers laugh and joke with each other through the worst of times and they are as close if not closer than family.

I'm sure some real dirt bags slip into the military. There are soldiers convicted of theft, rape and murder but then again there are plenty of thieves, rapists and murderers in the civilian world too.

I don't envy them for the things they have to live through but I envy their sense of belonging to each other. I wish we had more of that here.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Those who believe in and champion hierarchical systems have a simplified model to support
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 11:22 AM by Echo In Light
It's when people are free to think/choose/speak outside of the pre-existing hierarchical framework of 'instructions' and talking points that complicated 'grey' human reality makes the button-down, black/white lock-step approach of RW hierarchical structures seem messy since those involved aren't following an overarching directive of what's considered either appropriate or inappropriate thought.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. I'm no fan of the military
Well, I've come to know a number of soldiers and I like them; I'm just not a fan of war.

But I cannot imagine an army trying to operate on democratic consensus.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. That's not exactly correct
It certainly can be, trust me. Probably in most cases. In my unit while we were over there where all hung out in certain groups like cliques or what not. Also fighting and arguing wasn't uncommon(I believe living thousands of miles away contributed greatly to do this). I recall my Platoon Sergeant who I mentioned down thread was trying to say things to get a long with everyone and I remember when he said, 'What's it going to take, for someone to die?'. While a few months later someone did die and a few months later we still had the same problems with regards to a sense of community and he said, 'I asked what's it going to take, for someone to die? Well someone did die' and he went on describing the same problems we always had. I paraphrased both quotes of course as I can't recall exactly what he said but it's very similar.

After we came back to the States I hung out mostly with people from other companies but still in the same battalion and rarely within my own unit. I didn't get a long with most of them and I have my reasons. One I well share is the fucking untrue rumors that spread around about me and other people inside the unit. Being in the Military was like being in High School in regards to relationships with other people.

I'm sure it's quite different in most units though.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. I was in the Corps from '62-'67...
from the Cuban Missile Crisis thru 13 months in Vietnam.

Never... I repeat.... Never...

did I do one thing to defend America.

Nothing to protect our freedoms.

Nothing to defend our homeland.

I won't speak for the people there now, but I imagine they are in a similar situation.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
32. Bring 'em Home!
Bring 'em ALL home
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joe black Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
33. Military-Industrial Complex.
Using them once again.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
34. I agree
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 11:22 AM by JonLP24
This is coming from someone who went to Iraq(7/06-7/07) so take it FWIW.

I just wanted to see at least when I was in there isn't a whole lot of pro-war propaganda. In fact whether we should be there or not is rarely discussed. I also recall during primary season my Platoon Sergeant urged us to register to vote because it really does mean something and he mention gas prices(which at the time were a lot higher than they are now) during Clinton's last few months in office so with that I believe he was a Dem. Plus he was the Equal Opportunity Rep as well and very knowledgeable in that department.
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Obamaknowzz Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
36. Great Post. I'm a vet and totally agree except....
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 11:31 AM by Obamaknowzz
for the spelling of "heros". }(

:thumbsup:

K&R
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proudohioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
39. What a sobering OP...thanks for posting, and K&R. n/t
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. Wilfred Owen (WWI) was disgusted by the RAH-RAH war poets back home
in England who glorified war. He died in WWI, just a week before the armistice. Here is one of his most powerful antiwar poems:
Dulce et Decorum Est*
Wilfred Owen


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

*Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori = It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. That was the first grown up poem both my boys got by heart.
"The old lie"
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besdayz Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
47. a
what are you talking about?

they're defending the rights of americans to kill foreigners with impugnity....its a tried and true form of american diplomacy



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