Police can give speeding tickets if they 'think' car is going too fast

[cheneyschernobyl]

"In Ohio, if a cop says it looked like you were speeding, he can write you a ticket - no proof needed. Makes things so much easier for law enforcement if they don't have to be bothered with the burden of proof. True story."

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/03/police-can-give-speeding-tickets-if-they-think-a-car-is-speeding/?hpt=T3

Great. Just what we need.



:crazy:

[HopeHoops]

1. Hey, a cherry red Mustang looks like it is speeding when it is parked!

Does the cop give it a speeding ticket or a parking ticket?

:shrug:

[county worker]

64. I drive a cherry red Mustang convertible. People constantly drive in the next lane with

the front of their car parallel to the rear of mine. My wife thinks it is because they think that if we pass a cop it will be me that gets the ticket.

[cheneyschernobyl]

65. I got a ticket for parking

the wrong direction in a parking spot! I contested it and lost. The reason I was told was "when I am entering and/or leaving a parking spot I'm driving against the flow of traffic...even if only for less than 5 seconds".

What a bunch of nonsense! If that's true, then everybody should get a parking ticket. The only way to avoid that I imagine is if one is parking curb-side on a 1 way street.

:banghead:

[HopeHoops]

70. Most municipalities have that law in place. In mine, it is a $10 fine.

As for a one-way street, at least around here it is legal to park on either side, but a cab can only pick you up on the right side. PA law forbids passengers from entering a cab on the driver's side. It is also legal to make a left turn on red at a light on a one-way street (obviously only if the traffic direction MOVES to the left).

[unpossibles]

2. jesus

add to this the weakening of Miranda Rights and the states which will arrest you for videotaping a policeman, and this is getting a bit too f'd up for me.

[RKP5637]

11. It's the NEW America. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. My god.

Next they'll be able to give a ticket if they think the care is wavering in or out of the lanes, or if they think the driver didn't signal while changing lanes.

Fucking corporatists.

[hobbit709]

4. Back in 1969 in Marion, OH

my buddy got a ticket for speeding.
He was cited for going 32 in a 35mph zone with clear, dry pavement and light traffic during daylight hours.

He went to court and even the crooked small town judge had a WTF look on his face before dismissing it.

[coti]

5. Yes, but you can still contest the ticket in court.

I imagine the law is much the same in many states. Police are trained to eyeball vehicle speed, and that training gives their judgment probative value as evidence for a speeding violation, whether they use radar or not.

That doesn't mean that the officer's claim can't be attacked in court. A person written up for a ticket on a pure eyeball could put the officer on the stand and probably do a pretty good job of impeaching his credibility with regard to that skill. I've heard stories about people doing just that.

[MadHound]

9. Umm, in most states cops have to have a radar gun reading, or pursued the vehicle

And noted the speed. They can't just "think" or "eyeball" a car and determine it is speeding.

And yes, a person can go to court and fight this, however even if the person is found innocent it is still time lost, money lost, all because a cop is being an asshole.

And as far as a person being able to tearing down a cop's credibility, that's not so easy to do. After all, it is going to be a case of your word against theirs, and the uniform, for better or worse, carries a lot of weight in the courtroom.

[coti]

15. I'm not sure as to the prevalence of such a requirement, that's why I said "I imagine..."

And I still imagine that many states don't have a radar requirement- at least Ohio doesn't. In any case, if you could provide a citation, I'd accept it.


However- impeaching an officer's credibility with regard to a skill such as this one is not as difficult as you'd imagine. It's not a pure "his word against yours" situation- during examination, one can use demonstrations to show that the officer's skill is inaccurate. One example I've heard used is dropping a quarter from a certain height and asking the officer how fast it was going when it hit the ground. A calculation can be done that, based on physics, mathematically tells how fast the quarter should be going at that point. Likely, the officer's determination will not be very close to the actual speed. It's not a perfect demonstration in that there are differences between watching an accelerating quarter and eyeballing a car, but it does help to get the point across that eyeballing speed isn't that easy, and mistakes can be made.

Such a demonstration, combined with sworn testimony of the ticketed that they were not speeding, could very well put enough doubt in the judge's mind to throw out the case.

You're right about it being a hassle to go to court, though.

[HooptieWagon]

50. In 1974 I got a ticket for "unclocked speed"...

which was a lower fine and less points than a speeding ticket which specified the speed. I don't know if that's still on the books or not these days, what with radar and all.

[Echo In Light]

6. Carlin on how to handle a ticket: "Fuck you, and your ticket, too."

And then crumple it up and toss it back at his chest, and tell that public servant you're thirsty, and he'd better run and get you a drink of water.

[Oregone]

7. This will bring a whole new meaning to the term Driving While Black

[dsc]

8. As a math teacher I would dearly love to see the training they get which allows them to estimate

speed within a 1 mile an hour window.

[Supply Side Jesus]

29. Then request a ride along with a traffic cop

they'll be more than happy to show you how they do it. It's very easy to get one, and it might shed some light on a cop's profession you never knew about.

[dsc]

46. there is no way on earth

that a cop sitting in a car can estimate speed with that level of accuracy. No way, no how. Maybe if both cars are moving, but even then I doubt it.

[Supply Side Jesus]

56. ok, go for a ride along then

ask for a traffic officer. i can get mine down to 3-4 mph.

[dsc]

58. 3 to 4 is very different from 1

To see that take a ticket in Ohio written for 67 in a 55 zone. 11 mph over qualifies for points while 10 doesn't. Under the accuracy claimed in the article (1 mph) that ticket should get points, under your claimed accuracy it shouldn't. Here is my whole problem with that supposed level of accuracy. A car going 67 miles per hour is going 98.2 feet per second while a car going 66 miles per hour is going 96.8 feet per second. So say you can clearly see two posts that are 1/10 of a mile apart (528 feet). The first car takes 5.38 seconds to travel that distance, the second car takes 5.45 seconds to travel the same distance. That is 0.07 seconds difference. Even if you stretch it to half a mile the difference in time is 0.35 seconds. I just can't see how anyone could possibly measure time that accurately without some sort of mechanical equipment.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Traffic crimes are civil infractions

"preponderance of evidence" not "proof".

I don't like it either. If the officer can articulate a good account... pay up.

[MajorChode]

20. Moving violations are generally covered under criminal statutes

Perhaps there are some states where this is not the case and there are other exceptions like red light cameras, but for the most part speeding infractions bear the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

[unblock]

12. as a general legal rule, a ticket is an accusation; proof is only needed to make it hold up in court

that said, there are obviously problems in giving the police a free hand in ticketing willy-nilly, on a capricious or discriminatory basis.

to issue tickets knowing that it most likely won't hold up in court is a highly dubious strategy.

[coti]

16. Right- that's part of the point I'm trying to make upthread. nt

[Echo In Light]

17. Not if it simultaneously provides them further excuse to nose around in your car/business

Phony war on drugs, and other potential for state revenue

[unblock]

42. right, as i said, it's easy to abuse. "nosing around" still requires probably cause

and mere ticketing is not, in and of itself, probable cause.

but, of course, drivers need to know how to assert their rights and protect themselves.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

13. Come court time everyone simply demand a jury trial.

Make the officer appear in court and simply say "prove it". Slow the courts down to a crawl and they'll capitulate quickly enough.

[Supply Side Jesus]

33. A Officer's training, experience, and observation is proof.

[coti]

37. Evidence- "proof" is a tricky word. nt

[Supply Side Jesus]

39. ok...Is admissible In Court

Fair enough :)

[coti]

40. Certainly. nt

[Hannah Bell]

47. lol.

[eShirl]

49. first they have to bother to show up

many times they don't, and the judge dismisses it

[awoke_in_2003]

51. that's right...

cops shouldn't have to demonstrate fact, they are a noble breed and much superior to us common folks.

[Mari333]

14. and a good lawyer can contest it

I see a LOT of cases clogging the courts in Ohio, a state I intend to avoid

[depakid]

45. In many courts, a speeding ticket- regarldess of the evidence presented, will get ruled on

in favor of the officer.

Your best hope challenging a ticket is for the officer not to appear.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. put a dozen donuts...

outside the courthouse. That should stop them :)

[cheneyschernobyl]

54. Perhaps driving with a dozen donuts

in the car will solve this problem?

"Hello Othifur...how fast was I driving?...hmmmm...not sure...but I just got these donuts at Krispy Kreme.........what was that?.....you want another donut?.....no problem....thank you Othifurr for the warning..."

:think:

[NNN0LHI]

18. Its been that way in Illinois for as long as I can remember

[Dragonbreathp9d]

19. When can we start giving cops tickets for parking illegaly?

or for any of the other numerous traffic violations the incur while on the quest for donuts or the scourge of speeders

[MindPilot]

21. This cop wrote the cite based on the car sounding like it was speeding

http://autos.aol.com/article/audible-speeding-tickets/


There are numerous tools and techniques available to police officers to issue you a speeding ticket: four different radar bands, lasers, and VASCAR for instance. The one thing they have in common is that they use a precise method to determine how fast you were going. Even if a radar gun isn't calibrated correctly, it will assess your speed based on a fixed mathematical process, and even though it's wrong it will be wrong in the same way for every car.

Police can even pull you over based on their observations and cite you for driving too fast - but they can't say they knew how fast you were going based solely on their observations.

Nor would one suspect that a speeding ticket could be supported based on an officer saying he could hear a driver exceeding the speed limit, but that's exactly what happened to Daniel Freitag.

[Ohio Joe]

22. A girl I know in Lima Ohio got ticketed for running a yellow light

The cop felt she could have stopped, she was found guilty and had to pay the fine.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

23. I was given an "estimated" speeding ticket in ohio.

I was doing like 90mph in a 55mph area though. :shrug:
It was almost humorous when I asked the officer "what's the problem officer".
He didn't radar me... he just said he knew I was going way to fast.

He wrote me a ticket for "75mph" because he didn't want to have to arrest me for going too fast over the limit.

[Supply Side Jesus]

31. What a jack booted thug!

Another prime example of police state America! A cop cutting a guy a break so he wouldn't go to jail!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

38. I know... what as asshole, right?

Denying me of 3 hots and a cot AND a public defender... the nerve!

[awoke_in_2003]

53. the cop cut him a break...

because of the extra paperwork involved in arresting a person. WIth that 75 mph ticket he brought in a fair amount of revenue for little work, and got closer to meeting the monthly quota.

[Supply Side Jesus]

55. is that so Nostradamus?

Perhaps you can use your powers for solving the worlds problems instead of a single cop's actions.

[awoke_in_2003]

59. yeah, it is so...

and it doesn't take a genius to see it. The person you responded to said he was driving 90 in a 55 mph zone- that is reckless, and he should have been locked up. But, of course, then you have to take him in and book him, hence the increased paperwork.

[Supply Side Jesus]

61. what paperowrk is that?

additional to an arrest vs a ticket? how much more exactly? please enlighten me to what "paperwork" you speak of.
Since you know so much about being a cop...

[awoke_in_2003]

63. oh, come on now...

you think they just need the ticket as record when locking someone up. Are you that obtuse? Finger prints, photos, arrest records- fuck it, you aren't going to listen anyway. Glory be to our fine boys in blue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8

edited for a video with better sound quality

[Supply Side Jesus]

66. i'm referring to the arresting officer's paperwork

what paperwork do they do? come now, you are a bright person. enlighten me. cuz it wouldn't take but a mere 20 minutes to do that affidavit.

[MajorChode]

24. Personally I'm more concerned with cops who issue speeding tickets based only on radar reports

If the police can provide proof they attended training and certification that required them to judge speed within a mile or two I would be more satisfied than a clueless cop sent out with a radar gun to gather revenue with zero training on how to use it. Radar guns are certainly not infallible and there's a number of situations where they can give erroneous readings even if the gun itself is functioning normally (which is not always a safe bet either).

[no_hypocrisy]

25. Calibrated eyes won't stand up in court for a conviction.

[Supply Side Jesus]

26. Nothing new here...

An experienced cop can ESTIMATE how fast a vehicle is traveling within a narrow margin of error. There is no 'guessing.' I'm able to estimate it within 3-4 mph on a straight road. But I won't pull someone over for estimating 30 in a 25 or 55 in a 45. It's going to have to be much more than that. Last visual I did was at least 50 in 35. It is rare for a cop to issue a ticket based solely on observation, mostly because we don't to end up dealing with bullshit like this. Cafferty sounds very naive in his blog.

[coti]

41. Your assessment of your skill and how you're using it sound fair.

I see you're from Colorado. Can you give us any insight into the law as far as when radar is absolutely required, and when it isn't?

[Supply Side Jesus]

57. Radar is not required.

I'm not a traffic officer, but I did get my fair share of training in it. As long as the officer can articulate the manner of speeding, it should hold up in court.

Read up on your state traffic laws. You'll be surprised at the amount of discretion officers' have when it comes to enforcing traffic laws.

If a cop was really wanted to, he can pretend to zap him with the radar, and make up a speed. We do not have to show the radar reading or anything. All we have to do is SAY what the reading is. So obviously there is room for abuse, and agencies have tools to hold us accountable and true to our tickets.

Here is our Reckless and Careless driving laws



42-4-1401. Reckless driving - penalty.


(1) A person who drives a motor vehicle, bicycle, electrical assisted bicycle, or low-power scooter in such a manner as to indicate either a wanton or a willful disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of reckless driving.



42-4-1402. Careless driving - penalty.


(1) A person who drives a motor vehicle, bicycle, electrical assisted bicycle, or low-power scooter in a careless and imprudent manner, without due regard for the width, grade, curves, corners, traffic, and use of the streets and highways and all other attendant circumstances, is guilty of careless driving.


That's kind of vague, which is why articulation is important.

[Dogtown]

67. No, you can't.

You may want to believe it, but it is not possible.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

69. How is it not possible?

I was a collegiate baseball player back in the day... a catcher to be precise. Worked with sports radars and pitching coatches for over a decade. I'd bet as a batter, observer or catcher I could estimate the speed of a pitch to within 5mph, identify the type of pitch (spin & action), and whether or not that pitch was a ball or strike. I'll bet you could estimate 1 cup of water without measuring it or the speed you are driving +/-10mph without looking at your speedometer. If you do something enough times with measurement tools in place, estimating observations without those measurement tools is not difficult at all.

All this is no different than a cop working the same roads for years... you get to know how fast things should be traveling. We're talking about officers writing tickets for obvious speeding, not people doing 37mph in a 35mph zone. That kind of accuracy is not expected or likely supported when issuing citation based on observation alone.

[Dogtown]

71. Several points

1. As a baseball catcher, the ball was thrown directly at you; hence, your sole attention was on that ball. You didn't have to factor in parallax, relative velocity, other approaching objects, your own control of a vehicle.

2. With minor variances, baseball diamonds are very much the same in all ballfields. No overpasses, pedestrians wandering around, multiple balls in play.

3. There were no consequences to a failure on your part. No one paid a fine, did jail time, or lost their insurance.

4. The claim was made that the poster could tell the speed of all vehicles to within 3-4 MPH, I believe; thus, your 37 MPH in a 35 zone is *exactly* what was predicted. (Granted, the OK in question said he wouldn't write that ticket, that doesn't affect his claim that he can judge the speed of a vehicle w/in 3-4 MPH) Of course, a trained officer with years of experience can guess that you're doing 85+/- in a 55 zone. That was NOT the claim being made. "I'm able to estimate it within 3-4 mph on a straight road."


This is a stupid law. The scariest part is that it allows "suspicion" as a variable in determining guilt. It's going to be allowed because the consequences are relatively minor, but allowing police to "guess" if you're a law-breaker, at any level, provides that proverbial incline-sans-traction.

[boston bean]

27. I got a ticket for "sounding" like I was going to fast.

I was driving a Chevy Blazer, moons ago, and the thing revved real high with just a little pressure applied to the gas pedal.

I was not speeding.

But the cop said I slowed down before the curve in the road where he was hiding, perched to hand out tickets.

[MadMaddie]

28. Statistics show that red and yellow vehicles get pulled over the most

lets watch the statistics on these vehicles and the ticket issuance.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[TK421]

34. Oh...they'll be along shortly! Can't have the revered ones slandered so

without the usual BS excuses

[Supply Side Jesus]

35. Do you usually sound this whiny?

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[Skidmore]

36. What better way to shore up flagging revenues in economically hit areas.

[gravity]

43. How do police prove reckless driving?

I don't think going 70 in a 60 mph zone should hold up in court, but if someone is going 100 in a 60 mph zone, you don't need a radar gun to prove speeding.

[MindPilot]

62. The police officer's job is to micromanage your life.

You as a mere civilian without the 'special training and experience" can't possibly be capable of making your own safe and expedient decisions from the driver's seat.

Cops are the chosen ones who get to make those judgments for us ordinary mortals.

[Xithras]

44. Always been the case with the Basic Speed Law.

My wife was pulled over and ticketed for driving 40MPH in a 55MPH zone in a heavy thunderstorm a few years ago. The officer arbitrarily decided that the fastest safe speed on the road was 25MPH, given the rain and hail.

I don't have a huge problem with the basic concept of "too fast for conditions", but it does give rise to one troubling legal concept. Your violation of the "law" is entirely dependent on the opinion of the ticketing officer. If the speed limit is 55, you think it's safe to drive 40, and he thinks it's safe to drive 25, you're getting a ticket and there isn't a judge around who will toss it out.

You are legally sanctioned because your opinion differed from the officers opinion...even when there is no way you could have known the officers opinion before he pulled you over to ticket you.

THe law has ALWAYS given great weight to officer opinion in traffic enforcement.

[Sebastian Doyle]

48. The cops who pull you over just because they're bored shitless will love this.

I once had a cop pull me over in the middle of a winter storm. The posted speed limit on the road was 40 MPH. I was doing about 25, due to the conditions. Cop tells me that I was "going too fast for road conditions". As he's lecturing me on driving 15 miles UNDER the posted speed limit, some assholes are speeding by in their monster truck easily exceeding the posted speed limit, let alone the officer's arbitrary idea of "safe for road conditions" speed.

I asked him if he was going after them. He just gave me a dirty look and walked back to his car. Had he actually wrote a ticket for that non-violation, I would have definitely fought it in court. As if the Supreme Court weakening Miranda rights wasn't bad enough, this does not help matters at all.

An officer's opinion is NOT the law, and cannot be interpreted as such.

[MindPilot]

60. I got pulled over once for following too close.

Even though traffic was quite literally stopped...as in not moving. It was several minutes--several VERY LONG minutes--while I waited for the car in front of me to move so the car behind me with the flashing lights could follow me to the shoulder.

I came right out and asked the cop if he was lonely and just wanted some company. I got a stern lecture about being a smartass and a verbal warning not to follow too close which--given the context of being stationary--to this day I do not understand.

[cbdo2007]

68. My wife got pulled over for not stopping at a stop sign while she was stopped at it.

There was some drug activity in the area (she is a social worker who makes home visits) and they were stopping all the cars to determine if they were suspicious or not. What's she gonna do?