ABC: American, 19, among Gaza Flotilla Dead (shot in head X4)

[mod mom]

American, 19, Among Gaza Flotilla Dead
Furkan Dogan Was Shot Five Times, Including Four Times in Head

By ZOE MAGEE
June 3, 2010

A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.



Dogan was a high school student studying social sciences in the town of Kayseri in central Turkey. He was born in the United States and moved to Turkey at the age of 2. He will be buried in his hometown tomorrow.

Dogan's body was returned to Turkey today along with eight others, all Turkish nationals, who were on board the Mavi Maramara.

-snip

A Canadian on board, Farooq Burney, described watching an elderly man bleed to death. The head of a Turkish charity that organized the aid flotilla said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach and a photographer was shot in the forehead.

-snip

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848



I hope our government seeks justice for this death as well as others!

[gratuitous]

1. Mr. Dogan was obviously a particularly nasty terrorist

Otherwise, our good friends the Israelis wouldn't have pumped five slugs into him. If they did. And he didn't just shoot himself to make Israel look bad. Israel has the absolute right to self defense!

Lather, rinse, repeat, ad mortem.

[mod mom]

5. He had no right being in INTERNATIONAL WATERS!

I hope Helen Thomas grills the hell out of the WH on this. All the deaths are tragic but our government needs to protect it's citizens against piracy.

[kenny blankenship]

23. Four shots to the head of a US citizen - Has Israel finally gone too far?

If they had stopped at two in the head I'd say don't worry it will all blow over. But four - that's tough. Can't say "oops, my finger slipped!" with four.

Couldn't they have just crushed him with a bulldozer?

[mod mom]

25. the fact they wore mask tells me they intended to do something that they needed to protect their

identity over.

[tiptoe]

49. you're right. nt

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[proteus_lives]

114. Terrorists attack the families of soldiers and politicians.

Cops wear masks for the same reason.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[SnakeEyes]

93. Has it been determined that only one person fired at the 19 year old?

Possible scenario: he went for a weapon and the other IDF fired a shot.

[Ticonderoga]

105. Even that is no justification

as the Israelis were pirating a ship in international waters. There is no justification. Israel claims to have been enforcing an illegal blockade. Israel is flappin in the wind...again.

[SnakeEyes]

113. How is the blockade illegal?

The Hamas leadership of Gaza is an enemy of Israel, as stated by Hamas themselves. Israel is not blocking neutral ports and they have public stated their blockade. Those are the requirements and they have been met.

[Ticonderoga]

104. Or shot him in the face with a tear gas canister

and took his eye out?

[Confusious]

80. Ha!

A few American dead vs Israel Pirates = Israel Pirates.

I think you'd have to have at least 100 American dead before we'd say "We weakly, begging your pardon Israel, condemn this. Now if Israel wants to something for the dead, whatever they feel like will be good. Case closed. NEXT!"

I think something like 500 might get a normal condemnation. Of course, if it's over a week, nothing will happen.

[burnsei sensei]

81. In any investigation of this event,

the word "piracy" must be brought up.
If piracy gains any quarter in acceptable conduct, no one traveling anywhere is safe.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

118. Or a flesh eating zombie. I mean come on, we've all seen the movies. nt

[sandbar]

2. Our gov has not condemmed this horrible incident. I doubt they

will seek 'justice" .

[kenny blankenship]

27. It's not too late for Obama to get out in front of this problem

All he needs to do is to declare Dogan an enemy combatant without US citizenship. Retroactively. That solves the pesky problem of arising from the murder of a US citizen by a foreign power. Then all that remains to do is to apologize to Israel for letting him slip by our Predator drones - and voila! we're back in Israel's good graces like nothing ever happened.

[Grinchie]

52. Touche`

It's definately plausible that he may yet do this...

[deminks]

3. K&R If the US behaves like it has in the past

for incidents that evidently have to remain nameless this morning or the posts get removed, nothing will be said or done.

[Poll_Blind]

4. Killed defending himself and others from piracy. The U.S. just happens to...

...be close friends with the pirates. Changes nothing, however.

PB

[backscatter712]

6. Israel's paid shills appearing to smear this guy as a "terrorist" in 3...2...1... n/t

[LakeSamish706]

7. "I hope our government seeks justice for this death as well as others!"

Not holding my breath on that. The US has made the claim that Israel can investigate this disaster themselves, so that has to tell us where the US stands.

[CarlaLevin]

8. I hate that this involves Israel but

there is no way to defend it. Four shots in the head? That is not self defense from an attack with chairs, that is a mob style assasination. If they cant do the tests, I am afraid they will find that some or all of the shots were from close range too. If you were shot once in the head, you would fall down and die. Four shots sounds like standing over someone and shooting repeatedly.

[mod mom]

9. article says "shot at close range"

[Cassandra]

10. It's possible that he was shot by...

multiple people shooting at about the same time.

[mod mom]

11. 4 soldiers at close range couldn't see the others were about to fire?

:shrug: He's still dead, pretty much execution style. Why not shoot to impair? A Shot to the head is definitely deadly.

[Donnachaidh]

13. yeah - in an EXECUTION.

:eyes:

[rhett o rick]

69. At the same time? Or one after the other? Doesnt compute. nm

[Statistical]

14. Guess you have never fired a semi automatic handgun.

Good shooter can put 3-4 rounds into a target in half as many seconds.

Pistols lack stopping power while person may die from wounds they may not be "stopped" immediately. Anyone who trains with firearms knows to use multiple rounds especially at close range.

[mod mom]

17. A decision was made to shoot in the head VS maiming in another area of the body

The weaponry used by Israel greatly over powered their victims. The fact that the masked soldier (so there is no way to confirm just who did the shooting) made a conscious decision to shoot at the head over a non vital area of the body means it was intentional deadly attack.

[Statistical]

18. Of course it was a deadly attack

A firearm is a deadly weapon. I am just saying nobody (except idiots and people in movies) aim for hand, or weapons, or guns.

You shoot to stop the target. A FIREARM IS A DEADLY WEAPON. Trying to use it as a nonlethal weapon is like trying to use a hammer to fasten screws.

[xocet]

26. To Wit:....

Here is an example of exactly that which you say is never done save by idiots and by actors in movies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHvWaviIXsk

[Statistical]

28. You can't tell the difference

between someone engaged in combat (and with handgun) and a sniper who is in no danger and whose presence is unknown to the attacker?

There are exceptions to every rule. Generally speaking you aim center mass and fire until target is no longer a thread. Many special forces until train defeat drill which is alternating head and body shots to "defeat" any potential body armor.

[xocet]

56. Of course....

I am only pointing out that you did not express your position very carefully and, hopefully, providing compelling evidence thereof. Nobody is an inclusive term. Also, the hyperbolic labeling of people as idiots is not useful to any debate or discussion.

It certainly would be nice if people here could carefully discuss their arguments and provide citations, but that, especially the latter, seems frequently to be too much to request.

"Generally speaking you aim center mass and fire until target is no longer a thread.(sic)" is another example of careless argumentation though it might be a roughly-stated strategy of a troll attack on a discussion board (and I am not implying that you are a troll) or a figurative description of a moderator taking action against said troll attack. Of course, it could be that one is attacking a textile fragment with a firearm, but, sadly, I am unable to differentiate the three without getting the answer zero. I will leave this for you to clarify at your leisure.

In conclusion, I do ask you to explain why people's positions should be taken seriously if said positions are not worth stating carefully.

[disillusioned73]

43. Thanx

that was a hell of a shot. I wonder where "Hollywood" got that idea?

[RaleighNCDUer]

107. You want to stop the target, and the target is obviously not wearing

body armor, you shoot for center mass - you DON'T put 4 shots in the head.

The person you responded to did not say to use it as a non-lethal weapon. He was pointing out that ALL firearms training for professionals emphasize body shots, not head shots. It is the head shots that make this something other than SOP.

You, of all people, should know this.

[Lance_Boyle]

32. Attempting a head shot (much less 4) under duress is not common training.

Evidence points to execution, not an innocent pair of incredibly accurate double-taps.

[Ignis]

63. +1 for Occam's Razor

[Pavulon]

117. or 3rd position on M4 trigger control. Full auto

that would put 4 shots downrange in less than a second. Makes more sense than an execution. But does not fit your agenda.

[Recursion]

54. My own guess is four people opening up at once NT

[proteus_lives]

19. "Four shots sounds like standing over someone and shooting repeatedly"

Or backing up as a crowd advances towards you with pipes and knives.

[subsuelo]

22. so you trust IDF Spokespeople over peace activists? n/t

[proteus_lives]

44. Depends on the situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

100. Sorry, but you've always totally swallowed everything the IDF says about any situation...

I can't remember a single situation where you haven't trusted everything the IDF says...

[proteus_lives]

115. Ok.

You're a member of the anti-Israel brigade so I don't recall you ever defending Israel on anything.

[Violet_Crumble]

116. I don't give a shit what you think about me...

I'm not the one who was falsely trying to make out I was objective the way you were in the post I responded to...


on edit for those who haven't read my posts regarding the conflict: While I criticise Israel when it's committed a crime, as in this case, there are instances in the past where I haven't believed Israel has been in the wrong and have said so. Unfortunately there are people who on seeing the slightest criticism of Israel, forget everything else and start labelling any criticism as being 'anti-Israel' or in the case of some people 'anti-semitic'

[WolverineDG]

30. someone in a mask jumps on my boat in international waters & threatens me with a gun

will get everything I can throw at him to protect myself.

dg

[proteus_lives]

40. Are you trying to break a blockade after being repeatedly warned off?

And refusing to off-load your cargo at a port because that isn't as good press?

[WolverineDG]

47. That does not excuse what happened nt

[Warren Stupidity]

86. at what point would you admit this was indefensible?

Is there any evidence that could be presented that would change your position? What would it be?

The embargo precludes many clearly non-military goods. You know that, your stupid canned talking point is pathetic.

[truedelphi]

96. This was not done inside the legit waters of Israel but 40 miles out.

In International waters. The only actual term for those boarding those boats is this one:
"pirates."

Our government has no excuse for permitting this to slide by.

Of course, our government is becoming increasingly marginalized. If Israel responds at all to this massacre, it will be because of the other more real nations of the world and the protests of the citizens of those more real nations.

Our government, though clearly bought and paid for by corpoRATions from all over the world, needs to rely far too much on everyone from the Chinese who continue to flood our shores with cheap products, (So those of us living on food stamps and unemployment can continue to somewhat exist.) And our government must bow and grovel to British Petroleum to provide the oil for our military (80% of BP oil from the Gulf ends up being sold to our military.) And we need Israel so that we can continue to feel we have a "friend" in the Mid East "oil" arena.

Personally I cannot really think of what that friend has done for us lately. I suppose the nation of Israel did have diplomats who encouraged our "statesmen" and "stateswomen" in waging our two wars against Saddam, so that their Armed Forces didn't have to fight there.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. They were in international waters. Plus that blockade is illegal...

Israel is acting like a totally out of control rogue state. It doesn't have any right to do what it did in international waters, and it can fuck off with its demands that shipping MUST go where it tells them to.

btw, murdering a whole bunch of civilians like Israel just did is what's bad press...

[Lance_Boyle]

33. The IDF says they specifically targetted LEGS once they opened fire.

It smells like bullshit. This kid was executed.

[proteus_lives]

41. Why?

Why would he be executed?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. And deck chairs!

Don't forget the passengers were armed with deadly deck chairs.

[Ignis]

71. Deck chairs?!? Clearly, they HAD to be shot.

Being hit with a deck chair could cause serious harm to an IDF commando...














...'s pride.

[whattheidonot]

21. backwards.

Israel did the attacking. Their self defense claim is not strong. this was extreme overreaction on international waters. Israel had the capacity to take the ship into port and inspect it. without any arms. to claim self defense when you have done the invading is very chutzpa stuff.

[backscatter712]

50. Just watched an interview from the Al Jazeera reporter who was there.

They were firing live bullets from the helicopter. Yeah, real self-defense situation there. :sarcasm:

[Ignis]

72. Just saw that video as well. But I'm sure the journalist will be smeared.

He talks with one o' them funny accents, after all! And his skin is so...dark!

:puke:

This short AJ breaking news video shows highlights from that video: http://www.youtube.com/v/mpkpurTPjzo

[SnakeEyes]

94. Likely for crowd dispersal

Did you see the video of the people with pipes and weapons as the IDF was repelling onto the ship?

[Whisp]

12. fucking murderous bastards.

*spits

[femrap]

15. Shot in the head 4

times? There are no words....

[Sherman A1]

42. Precisely

[subsuelo]

16. ABC's 'Breaking News' headline is about a Golden Girl passing

I guess in the corporate-run news programming world, Israel murdering an American high school student doesn't merit that kind of importance.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnnyBoots]

20. Israel is the Eddie Haskell of the world stage. NT

[Dr.Phool]

38. Israel is the Charles Manson of the world stage.

[Wizard777]

46. Manson could only dream of starting race wars like Israel does.

[stray cat]

24. Activism sometimes can be dangerous - Americans tend to forget that

People in many other countries know differently

[Forkboy]

29. You're always so deep.

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. kick and recommend!! VERY IMPORTANT!!!

[newtothegame]

34. I hope we don't.

Starting a war with an entire country over 1 person's death is exactly what the Neocons would do.

[mod mom]

35. Neocons, like Netanyahu?

The neoconservatives have had Iran in their sights for more than a decade. On July 8, 1996, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's newly elected prime minister and the leader of its right-wing Likud Party, paid a visit to the neoconservative luminary Richard Perle in Washington, D.C. The subject of their meeting was a policy paper that Perle and other analysts had written for an Israeli-American think tank, the Institute for Advanced Strategic Political Studies. Titled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," the paper contained the kernel of a breathtakingly radical vision for a new Middle East. By waging wars against Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, the paper asserted, Israel and the U.S. could stabilize the region. Later, the neoconservatives argued that this policy could democratize the Middle East.

"It was the beginning of thought," says Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-American policy expert, who co-signed the paper with her husband, David Wurmser, now a top Middle East adviser to Dick Cheney. Other signers included Perle and Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy during George W. Bush's first term. "It was the seeds of a new vision."

Netanyahu certainly seemed to think so. Two days after meeting with Perle, the prime minister addressed a joint session of Congress with a speech that borrowed from "A Clean Break." He called for the "democratization" of terrorist states in the Middle East and warned that peaceful means might not be sufficient. War might be unavoidable.

Netanyahu also made one significant addition to "A Clean Break." The paper's authors were concerned primarily with Syria and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, but Netanyahu saw a greater threat elsewhere. "The most dangerous of these regimes is Iran," he said.

Ten years later, "A Clean Break" looks like nothing less than a playbook for U.S.-Israeli foreign policy during the Bush-Cheney era. Many of the initiatives outlined in the paper have been implemented—removing Saddam from power, setting aside the "land for peace" formula to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon—all with disastrous results.

-snip

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/03/whitehouse200703


I don't understand how liberals who were vocal against the neocon policies of the * administration can turn and defend Netanyahu's aggression.

[entanglement]

65. Many of those "liberals" are opportunistic - liberal in America, ultra-right when it comes to Israel

It is not progressive at all.

[glitch]

74. Don't call them liberal. They resent it.

DLC doesn't have a problem with neocon policies.

[liberation]

45. Israel is the only US ally whose armed forces have killed American citizens advertenly

Heck, they are basically the only US ally to actually bomb the shit out of one of our Navy boats.

We have leveled entire countries for less attacks on our military/citizen than Israel has carried out.

[crim son]

39. Self defense my ass.

Israel claims self defense when they shoot kids who throw rocks at them. It is time the U.S. did something in response to their endless bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

82. +1000% --

[SnakeEyes]

95. Israel doesn't shoot at kids with rocks

They shoot at the people that are hiding behind the kids with rocks.... the real threats. Sometimes the kids get hit.. which is what the people hiding really want. It makes for great propaganda.

[RaleighNCDUer]

108. Not that the US would have to do much. No retaliation. No censuring. No sanctions.

Just stop ALL US aid to Israel.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

[freddie mertz]

48. This is very very very bad.

Saw Gibbs today, and he said nothing substantive, as usual.

[Moochy]

89. Can we get a new spokesliar?

I think this one is all tuckered out from the hard work.

[opihimoimoi]

53. Who Ordered/allowed/ the Raid and the shooters must all face trail and subsequent punishment

Murder on the High Seas is Series Shit....protected by the Geneva Convention and UN laws concerning safe passage...

The Izreally dudes messed up...acted like them hijackers but with deadly Force

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. Yep. This conversation would be entirely different if Israel had simply

waited until the ship was in Israeli/Gazan waters. Even if everything had played out the same way.

They are so used to getting cover from the US that they don't even attempt at legitimacy any more.

[Liberal_in_LA]

57. omg. awful

[Odin2005]

58. IDF = cold-blooded murderers.

[SILVER__FOX52]

59. Fuck

Israel.

[Enthusiast]

60. Furkan Dogan was engaged

in the action of invading Israel. Besides, he's not a real Merican anyway. Not with THAT sort of a name. :sarcasm:

No, the death of Furkan is terrible. Israel should have to answer for this.

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I'm sure he was an anti-semite and therefore had it coming.

:sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

88. He was an ORGANIZED TURK(ish american)

and as I have learned in another thread, that alone is grounds for execution.

[entanglement]

62. Interesting: Most headlines have "U.S. Citizen" rather than the more emotive "American".Very subtle.

[Ignis]

73. +1, have to massage the message, right?

[Moochy]

87. Every Press Owner gets the chance to spin locally

Why else would you buy a press, than to influence its biases for fun and profit!

[geardaddy]

75. Good observation.

Thanks for posting that.

[defendandprotect]

83. +1000% --

Actually didn't notice that -- very observant --

very accurate -- !!

:)

[liberation]

97. Goebbelian, ain't it?

Good catch.

I remember a similar framing when that American student was killed by the Israeli bulldozer. The news was framing as "US student" or "US activists" and they never referred to her dead as being directly caused by the IDF, but rather how she died from her injuries. None of the main US outlets really covered the news, and the few that did... never did so in terms of "American woman crushed to death by an IDF bulldozer" directly, at all.

Never thought about the framing, but the propaganda angle is creepy indeed. huh...

[RaleighNCDUer]

110. That 'American student' was Rachel Corrie.

And the ship that was raided was named for her, the Rachel Corrie.

You notice how FEW reports mention that tidbit?

[Ticonderoga]

111. Wrong

The "Rachel Corrie" is steaming towards the blockade as we type. Hopefully they will drop anchor and await the Turkish warships for escort through the illegal blockade. Fuck Israel.

[RaleighNCDUer]

112. Oh.

THAT was why they didn't mention it.

My mistake.

[Catherina]

64. If our politicians don't seek justice for Furkan, I'm through. Finished. n/t

[Truth2Tell]

99. finished with what?

Since I promise you there will be no seeking of justice by "our politicians," I'm curious what you will be finished with? Serious question.

[Catherina]

103. Finished with them

Finished with anything that has to do with their tent.

[G_j]

66. our government?

"I hope our government seeks justice for this death as well as others!"

you mean the US of A?

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

84. +1000% --

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

70. Four shots to the head? Fuck the Israeli terrorists. US needs to take

away their allowance.

[branders seine]

76. he must have attacked those poor Israeli commandos

with his head.

[Ignis]

78. "Sprinkle some crack on him and let's get out of here!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFHpvPwq2i8

[BrklynLiberal]

77. This is such a tragedy, and horrific situation..for everyone involved.

[AmericaIsGreat]

79. Pre-dawn raid, in int'l waters, in SWAT gear with guns dropping from choppers?

Incredibly, and most likely deliberate, bad planning.

[Moochy]

85. Oh so now that an American is dead, it makes it all different

Those Turkish folks who were shot dead in cold blood... eh whatever.. but AN AMERICAN DIED?

Everyone knows that American Lives are Exceptional!

Nationalism is a poison.

[Warren Stupidity]

90. agreed, but it does make it more difficult

for the Obama administration to roll over on this outrage.

[cliffordu]

91. Shot in the head 4 times???? WHO THE FUCK CAN TELL AFTER THE FIRST TWO????

I dunno what my point is here, except he was prolly not recognizable after two.

[davidpdx]

92. I'm surprised Israel hasn't tried to claim compensation from the dead people's families

I mean what more sickening things could then do to make it worse? This kid will probably be called a terrorist even though he is dead. It's like stepping on dead people's bodies.

[Violet_Crumble]

101. Give them time. They'll get round to it n/t

[Bertha Venation]

106. "I hope our government seeks justice for this death as well as others!" -- HAHAHA

Our government cares more about Israel than anyone or anything else in this debacle. This relationship must be preserved at all costs, and fuck anyone or anything else. Seriously.

[blindpig]

119. Terrorism from a terrorists state.