Academic Evidence that School Choice Works

[BrentWil]

I have been having an interesting discussion in a thread concerning education reform. To me, the best choice would be a plan that allows the poor to have control over federal resources in order to attain education wherever they see fit. In other words, I want to empowerment of people who do not have much power, at least in this very important area. One thing I can't get over, is that academic research tends to show a positive effect for kids, if there is competition and choice for the parent. It is something that is quantifiable and seems to work in different cultures. Certainly there are a few studies that show no effect, but this does not represent the majority of the body of work. However, this seems to be a sensitive area for certain members of DU.

My main problem with conservative education reform is that the resources will go to those who already have a choice. A 2K voucher will simply be a tax cut for someone already sending their kid to a private school The resources have to be focused and the program has to make sense, but I have yet to hear why providing choice for the truly needy is a bad thing. Anyway, as a means to continue and widen the debate (and at the risk of being called rightwing), here are a few academic articles that present evidence that certain types of policies do in fact work. There are far more I could provide, but I thought this was a good start


Title: Private school vouchers and student achievement: An evaluation of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program

Author(s): Rouse CE
Source: QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF ECONOMICS Volume: 113 Issue: 2 Pages: 553-602 Published: MAY 1998

The results using the quasi-experimental applicant control group and the random sample of students from the Milwaukee public schools as a comparison group (when I include individual fixed-effects) are remarkably similar. On the one hand, I find that, on average, students selected for the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program and those enrolled in the participating private schools likely scored 1.5–2.3 percentile points per year in math more than students in the comparison groups.

School vouchers in practice: competition will not hurt you
Author(s): Sandstrom FM, Bergstrom F
Source: JOURNAL OF PUBLIC ECONOMICS Volume: 89 Issue: 2-3 Pages: 351-380 Published: FEB 2005

Because the decision on which school to attend is a choice variable, sample selection models are used. To account for the potential endogeneity of the share of students attending independent schools, we use instrumental variable estimation. We also estimate panel data models on 288 Swedish municipalities. Our findings support the hypothesis that school results in public schools improve due to competition.

Education vouchers, growth, and income inequality
Author(s): Cardak BA
Source: MACROECONOMIC DYNAMICS Volume: 9 Issue: 1 Pages: 98-121 Published: FEB 2005

Increased economic growth has been largely ignored as a potential benefit of education vouchers. In a setting where households can opt out of public education in preference for private education, private-education vouchers have been shown to offer increased economic growth. Taxes were held constant and it was shown that a given public education budget can be redistributed through the use of private- education vouchers in a way that will increase per capita human wealth and in some cases increase the human wealth of all households.

Private-education vouchers generated increased economic growth through a fiscal spillover. The tax base grew through a redistribution of the wealthier public-education students into the private education system where they accumulated greater amounts of human capital. This drove increases in public education expenditure, generating growth for the students remaining in public education. Similar growth enhancement might be generated by ability-tracking or selective-entry schools; however, such systems require some decision rule on how to select students.

itle: School finance - Raising questions for urban schools
Author(s): Reyes AH, Rodriguez GM
Source: EDUCATION AND URBAN SOCIETY Volume: 37 Issue: 1 Pages: 3-21 Published: NOV 2004

Decentralized budgeting, or campus-based budgeting, allows instruction to drive the school bud- get rather than a central office business manager with district-wide budget allocations; however, there is little evidence of successful budget decentral- ization models. Also, there is evidence that suggests that when charter schools compete with local public schools, there are improvements in academic performance for students who remain in the public schools; however, only in comparison with underperforming public schools are vouchers and charters effective

Access, school choice, and independent black institutions - A historical perspective
Author(s): Bush L
Source: JOURNAL OF BLACK STUDIES Volume: 34 Issue: 3 Pages: 386-401 Published: JAN 2004

The miseducation and undereducation of African Americans certainly creates a critical need for alternative forms of schooling. Though IBIs have been willing for some time now to serve in this needed capacity, their growth has been challenged by financial concerns. In the short run, funds from voucher and charter pro- grams appear to allow IBIs to expand their physical schooling operations to some degree. The degree to which the ideological paradigms of IBIs have been able to expand in the short run seems to vary. Certainly, this area needs some future research.

Title: Differences in Scholastic Achievement of Public, Private Government-Dependent, and Private Independent Schools A Cross-National Analysis
Author(s): Dronkers J, Robert P
Source: EDUCATIONAL POLICY Volume: 22 Issue: 4 Pages: 541-577 Published: JUL 2008

The main differences in the gross scholastic achievements of private and public schools in these 22 countries can be explained by differences in their student intake and by the related differences in school composition. But our analysis also shows that private government-dependent schools have a higher net scholastic achievement in reading than do comparable public schools with the same students, parents, and social composition. This higher scholastic achievement is also substantial because the reading score difference between attending a public or a private government-dependent school is equal to the negative effect of having two more siblings. The explanation is the existence of a better school climate in the former versus the latter. The different admin- istrative, learning, and teaching conditions in private government-dependent and public schools do not explain differences in this net scholastic achievement. This does not mean that private government-dependent schools do not have a more favorable student intake and social composition or that it explains the largest part of the higher gross educational outcomes of their students. Rather, it only means that next to student characteristics and social composition, the more favorable school climate does provide the explanation of the net higher educational outcomes of students from private government-dependent schools, in comparison to both public and private independent schools with the same students, same composition, and same conditions.

[bluestateguy]

1. I do support public school choice

I don't think anyone should be trapped in a lousy school just because of where they live, but as for private school vouchers, I must oppose that. My tax dollars are not going to be used to fund some all white "Christian" school that teaches that evolution doesn't exist, gay people are going to burn in hell, the Jews and Muslims are going to hell, and global warming is a fiction. I think private schools can be great for some people, and if that's how they feel, I'm sure they will find a way to pay for it on their own.

[BrentWil]

2. I agree...

That is the threat of unregulated vouchers. However, a private school that has certain controls over its curriculum as a pre-condition of getting government money, might be a solution worth looking at.

[dflprincess]

27. I agree with Bluestateguy

tax money should go to public schools not private ones. It makes no sense to spend money policing private schools to make sure they're not using public funds to teach religion - and if money isn't spent to police them, there will be plenty of the private schools who do teach whatever nonsense they choose to.

[olegramps]

262. I am of the opinion that providing choice is a Trojan Horse.

Those who are the most vehement about providing parents and their children with free choice are those who are operating private religious based schools. Under the guise of providing educational opportunities to disadvantaged kids in under-performing schools their real intent is to be able get tax dollars to support their brainwashing mission. It certainly isn't a coincidence that many Republicans also support the destruction of public education since their real target is the teacher unions.

The intent of their propaganda isn't to improve the teaching core but is solely determined to destroy the system by undermining the public's confidence in the competence of teachers' ability. They never address the primary cause of the kids' poor performance as being firmly rooted in systemic poverty. It has been demonstrated time and time again that when parents are concerned and involved in the children's education that regardless of their economic condition that they can excel. A child's performance is influenced far more by what is happening at home and in their neighborhoods than by what is happening at school.

A common complaint of those who send their kids to private schools is that they pay taxes and should be reimbursed since their kids are not taking up room in the public system. Single people and couples without any kids or maybe one or two could make a better claim based on that type of reasoning. Perhaps they would like to get tax rebates because they haven't call the fire department of the police in the last year.

[minavasht]

3. How about this -

every kid can apply to four or five schools he/she wants.
Then every school accepts the students with the highest grades, until it reaches the number of students it can handle. The kids that are not accepted in the first school are accepted in the next school where their grade is high enough.

Kids who are smart and want to study have incentive to study and get to go to to good schools.

[Catshrink]

4. What are you going to do about special ed students?

[dflprincess]

5. Exactly

private schools have the luxury of choosing which students they want - they can even make their decisions based on their impressions of the parents and how involved they may be.

Taking more money from the public schools will not help the students who need special ed or the kids who may be very bright but get no encouragment at home and pretty much have to fend for themselves.

[Catshrink]

6. Nor does it help the kids who are "throw aways"

those who don't get into the top schools. What is the plan for them? Is vocational training a part of this or do we just say fuck 'em and create a permanent underclass?

Armchair education reformers... meh

[BrentWil]

11. No, I think vocational training is very important..

With more resources, poorer students would have more choice for vocational training.

[minavasht]

19. It is a matter of choice

you put the effort and get good grades and get rewarded, or you skip class, don't study and end up without future.
Are you suggesting that those kids should be given special treatment? Maybe a little bump in the test scores, because they just cannot do it on their own?
There will be always some who are good at something and some who suck at it. That's why there are school grades, to show the abilities of the students graded.
You can't make everybody a rocket scientist. Somebody has to actually paint the thing too. Or clean the launch pad after the rocket blows up :).

[BrentWil]

22. Education has to work for all students, regardless of ability..

[aspiesrule]

28. One size fits all schools don't...

[BrentWil]

34. I agree

[aspiesrule]

36. Been lurking here for a while...

really suprised to see someone does. I try telling teachers about my experiences, they play it off like it was nothing. Yea, I spent my middle and high school years in suicidal depression for nothing. I am like, "Yea, keep telling yourself that."

[minavasht]

38. Hu?

So everybody becomes a professor?
How does education work for every student when students have different abilities?
It's like saying marathon running should work for everybody, regardless of ability...

[Catshrink]

24. And this is why you are not an educator.

[surrealAmerican]

50. At what age do you propose to give up on a kid who's ...

... not putting in enough effort to succeed? In the early grades, at least, the unmotivated students do NEED special treatment, or should we just give up and be assured a population of illiterates.

Not everyone will be a rocket scientist, but everyone should be able to read, do basic math, and understand the scientific method.

[aspiesrule]

52. But then again

We should also give the resources needed to those who will be rocket scientists so that they acheive their full potential. I once had a friend give me a good similie (sp?) to such a situation: pulling a truly gifted kid out of the regular education for 20 minutes every day (a luxury in most schools I have ever been in) is like educating a "normal" kid in a special eduation room all but 20 minutes every day. In other words, they just don't learn anything.

[knitter4democracy]

212. I teach those kids.

I'm a writing coach at an alternative high school, and we get those kids' grades where they should be (through effort and proof of mastery of material/skills). We teach college prep kids, kids with jail/prison records, special needs kids, and those who've fallen through the cracks. You'd be surprised what some of those "least of these" kind of students are capable of when put in the right environment and believed in.

[Mojeoux]

256. Bless You

I always wonder about that attitude that poor kids can make it out of the ghetto if they really try.

It pisses me off because the more advantaged kids get chance after chance after chance.

Kind of like G. Bush II.

These children that you teach are as deserving and worthy as any one. Who knows how many brilliant and talented people are just junked?
I pray for you and your kids.
MJ

[knitter4democracy]

265. They do make it when you support them.

We've found several brilliant kids this year alone, gotten others to finally feel successful and believe in themselves, and are pushing the rest along to get them to graduate and hopefully get into a trade program.

[bluestateguy]

21. Simple

Special ed students who have wealthy parents can go to private schools that cater to their particular challenge.

As for other special ed students, oh well, would you like fries with that?

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

[dflprincess]

31. This time I caught your sarcasm

:hi:

[Dappleganger]

7. Charter schools pretty much pretend they don't exist

in order to not skew their testing scores.

[BrentWil]

14. Much of the research takes into account external factors that affect performance

[aspiesrule]

33. Spectrum Charter Academy

Look it up.

[laughingliberal]

40. +1000 nt

[BrentWil]

10. I think you would have to up the amount of resources given to these kids..

In other words, if a private school can work with them and the parent thinks it is the best choice, they can go there. Otherwise, public schools would get more resources for each student, if the amount of the voucher were raised.

[dflprincess]

17. And where are these increased resources going to come from?

If the money was there you'd think it would already be going into education. The fact is, the feds have never provided the special ed funds they promised to the states and they aren't going to start now.

One more time, private schools get to choose who they educate and they don't take the kids that will hurt their image or bring down the test scores. If they have to they'll refuse all voucher students if that's the only way they can retain control of who they admit.

[BrentWil]

20. I am suggesting a new federal program..

I would suggest federal weighted student funding that takes into account the needs of the child, but special needs and income

[aspiesrule]

35. Sounds good to me

Charter schools that are just in it for the money (according to most people here) would be crazy to turn down a kid worth 15,000 a year), charter schools that want to really help kids now will have more resources for doing so. I don't get how some charters do it, I thought about trying to organize a committee to start a charter in Chicago for some time for special needs kids, but then I realized those kids would get even less then they do in public schools and we probably would need a lower student-teacher ratio... how could that work?

[minavasht]

23. Don't get me wrong

I am not talking about vouchers.
I am talking about the european system, where every student "carries" a certain amount of money to the school. Let's say $1000 per student. You have the same number of schools, same number of students, they are just not stuck with their "local" school, but can go to any school they want, as long as they have the grades to do so.
The schools get the same budgets, just the students have choice.

Every student puts the schools he/she wants to go to in order.
School A is the best school, everybody wants to go there. School A can take 550 students. The 550 students with the highest grades are admitted. It does not matter if they are rich, poor, black, white, brown - only their achievements matter.
School B is the next one - it can take 830 kids, the ones that wanted to go there with the highest grades get to go there.
And so forth.

It is very simple.

[BrentWil]

25. The system does little to take into account income and economic/social condition of the child..

More resources should be directed to those kids, not to kids that already have all the advantages.

[Catshrink]

26. It's segregation.

It's a RWer's wet dream.

[BrentWil]

37. agreed

[laughingliberal]

41. +1000 nt

[minavasht]

15. What about them?

They get to go to schools that can handle them, based on the same grading criteria. If they have good grades, they go to good schools. If they don't, they don't.

[Catshrink]

16. Wow!

Just wow.

[BrentWil]

18. +1000

[donco6]

95. No shit.

Where was I reading about people today having no sense of empathy?

[dflprincess]

30. At what age do you start applying this criteria?

If you're in 2nd grade and you're parents aren't paying a whole lot of attention to what you're doing is it your fault you're failing? Is it just your tough luck you didn't pick better parents?

[minavasht]

43. Hey, you still go to school

and you have many more years to get better.
And it does not mean that a better school is better for you - some kids I knew actually went to "bad" schools, where they looked better than the average students and got better grades that they could have gotten in the elite schools.
It's not all black and white.

[aspiesrule]

48. At what age do kids start being gifted

I was about 3 years ahead by 2nd grade..., I didn't learn anything thoughout most of those years. Just saying.

[dflprincess]

90. Even a gifted child can fall behind if you don't have the right support

both in an out of school - especially in the early grades.

[aspiesrule]

93. I know a bunch of gifted kids school choice would really help out

Sadly, that would kill the public education system, oh well I am still for it :).

[donco6]

97. You're in favor of killing public education?

Great.

[aspiesrule]

102. I am in favor of providing every kid an adequate education

If that happens to coincide with killing the public education system as we know it, oh well.

[donco6]

104. How far we've fallen. n/t

[aspiesrule]

110. Probably so.

But I am tired of seeing exceptional kids getting ignored or, worse, abused by the system... sorry... but if the system has to die for that to change... oh well. Maybe a better system will come back in its place.

[donco6]

112. Ah. I knew you sounded familiar. n/t

[aspiesrule]

116. Ummmm okay.... not sure how but okay...

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. Bingo!

[Catshrink]

152. Indeed....

[Catshrink]

108. Define adequate education.

[aspiesrule]

115. Okay here are a few ideas

No having a 135 IQ and a 1.8 GPA.

No learning nothing day after day because they are teaching so far behind your level.

No learning nothing day after day because they are teaching too far ahead of your level.

No getting denied a decent IEP that reflects your needs because your mom doesn't have money for a lawyer.

No being bullied right in front of your teacher and having it be ignored.

No being bullied by your teacher.





I could go on here but I think you get the picture :).

[Catshrink]

119. Oh yeah, I get the picture.

Loud and clear, even without your response. Clearly, your opinions are drawn from personal experience and not knowledge of education policy and certainly not from pedagogy. You are seeking revenge.

[aspiesrule]

126. Personal experience, partially

I also help parents on several sites for Aspeger's kids, all of whom have similiar horror stories. Personally I actually maintained a 3.4 GPA with my decently high IQ (was frequently taught below me level, but oh well). Go to wrongplanet sometime, see the horror stories are in that education board. 95% of asperger's kids get bullied on a daily basis in some areas, its not just me. Of course I may not understand education policy as well as you and probably not pedagogy (getting my certification in special education and elementary education now, but classes certainly don't teach you everything) but I get what goes on in these schools. Sorry, there is something wrong there.

[Catshrink]

132. God help us.

[aspiesrule]

136. Can I make a suggestion

Considering you are obviously so good with knowing how schools are run, how about you go help parents of asperger's kids out.

[Catshrink]

149. This isn't an aspie board

and we aren't here to help you with your unresolved problems from school. I'm not about to take on your issue for you. If you want to play victim, fine. Just don't expect to go very far in the education field, if anywhere, with that huge chip on your shoulder.

[aspiesrule]

I expect "this chip on my shoulder" to help me

How many teachers out there do you think were abused by the system. How many do you think had a gym teacher yell at them and call them retarded for losing focus for a second? How many gay teachers out there do you think had teachers make homophobic comments right in front of them? How many teachers out there do you think know what its like to be the kid in the back of the room with nothing to do? How many teachers out there do you think were bullied and belittled. Most of these people avoid the public education system like the plague, I think I have plenty of reason to believe I will succeed because I understand where some kids are coming from, that no other teacher does. I think I will do quite well.

[Catshrink]

157. Actually, more than you think

I'm so glad you won't be in the public school system. Charters will be able to deal with you so much easier.

[aspiesrule]

160. Hmm, aspie here...

So what is that supposed to mean?

[Catshrink]

175. Oh you'll find out soon enough.

[aspiesrule]

177. If I found a charter school...

I doubt I will be fired from it. The hard part is founding it, but I already have a circle in Chicago, and like you said they love charter schools.

[olegramps]

264. I am so glad that you "founding it."

[olegramps]

263. You paint a very clear picture of nothing more than unsubstainiated crapola.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. You didn't learn anything? But you sure know how to read and write.

How did you learn those skills? Did you just wake up one day and voilà! you were a reader?

[aspiesrule]

139. My mom taught me how to read when I was 3, and I was always ahead of the class

Writing was a bit more of a challenge, and as you can probably tell I am still a horrible speller. Also have the phonics skills of a 3rd grader (or at least I did when I was a freshmen in college, 5 years ago).

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Thank you

You know that's always my first thought.

[aspiesrule]

32. Give private schools the same amount that public schools get for said kids?

If said kid required an individual aide in public schools the school would get more money then they would for a kid who required no special resources. And don't give me the old "but public schools have to pay for these students out of their own pockets" line, we both know its not true, all public school money comes from tax dollars.

[Spike89]

39. Are you aware that this already is law?

Public school systems are required to pay for the assisstive technology used by ALL students in their district--including those attending private schools. If a child requires a speech therapist, the public school system must make one available and it doesn't matter if the kid goes to public or private school. It a kid needs special vision equipment to see the whiteboard...the public school system is required to provide it and again, it doesn't matter what type of school the kid attends.

[aspiesrule]

44. They have to provide assisstive technology

But I don't believe they have to provide an aide for example. Also for example, I have a younger friend who goes to a special needs school, but all of it comes out of his moms pocket, despite the fact that his new school educates him for far less (though far more then his mom can afford for another 4 years). Would be nice if he would at least get, say, 7,000 to help out, but even better if they gave him the amount he got in public schools. Just a thought.

[donco6]

98. They already do get this money - even in private schools.

They still don't take them.

[aspiesrule]

103. Then may I ask why my friend with severe ADHD

is not getting they money that was spend on him in the public system?

[donco6]

111. Non sequitur

I have no idea. I was talking about private schools receiving funding for special education services, and how that doesn't provide enough incentive to enroll them.

[aspiesrule]

117. Public schools will pay for technology

They won't pay for individual aides. They won't pay for reduced class sizes (sortof neccesssary if you are going to educate a lot of special needs kids in one classroom). They won't pay for a lot of stuff, just one for one trade, and they will fight for that trade with every fiber of their soul, just like they fight it in the public school system (hence I never had an IEP).

[Catshrink]

122. So you're pissed because you didn't get an individual aide?

Hell, no one gets those. The aide/teacher ratio for the severely disabled in our district is something like 3 to 1 and those kids can hardly feed themselves. You want a better ratio than that? Sorry Princess, that doesn't happen.

[aspiesrule]

130. No I am pissed that I didn't get an IEP

I am pissed that if my mom would have requested it they threatened to stick me in an ED/BD room. I am pissed that I had no services for me. I am pissed that I was taught on an equal grade level when I was ready for work several years ahead. We can educate special needs kids better for less, lets try it.

[Catshrink]

138. You'd better get over it before you start teaching

or you won't have a prayer of a chance.

[aspiesrule]

140. I don't plan to teach in the public education system

[Catshrink]

143. That's probably for the best.

[aspiesrule]

146. Yea, I always thought so

Maybe as soon as the public education starts changing I will respect it more, until then, no thanks. I am starting to get typers cramp here fyi lol.

[donco6]

137. We pay for individual aides all the time.

Sorry about your experience.

[aspiesrule]

141. Glad someone is

Most people here seem to be blaming the victim. The problem is individual aides are hardly as useful as providing a school for various needs.

[donco6]

154. So you really wanted your own school? What would it have been like? n/t

[aspiesrule]

159. I would have liked it to be...

A free charter school, this is first and foremost, too many of these schools out there cost too much money. Of course this poses a problem with funding. To provide kids services and an education that they don't get anywhere in the public education system. To do this I would want it to primarily serve kids with milder special needs like ADHD, Asperger's, HFA, learning disabilities, etc. It would also have things like a speech pathologist on staff to help kids with social issues in a way that generally costs parents 10,000 a year to try. I could go on a bit, but I think you are getting a good picture. Of course this is assuming that you actually care, aspie here so I don't always know.

[Luminous Animal]

187. There you go. Throwing money at the problem.

[laughingliberal]

224. +1 nt

[harry_pothead]

228. They do pay for individual aides.

I spent most of the 2008-09 school year employed as an inclusion para-educator for a single student with muscular dystrophy.

[Catshrink]

113. What? You think they hand over a check to every student?

What kind of services is your friend receiving? Special education teachers, psychologists for testing, classroom aides, teacher training -- all these things get factored in. Or do you think money grows on trees?

[aspiesrule]

121. You mean at the private school or public school

Private school- just classroom teacher, aide, and resource room access.

Public school- special education teacher, aide in the classroom (but not individual), psycatric services, speech therapy, and a few other kinds of therapies, all this is actually cheaper when you streamline it.

[Sabriel]

173. And ELL students?

Grades don't necessarily equal "intelligence" or initiative.

[Richard Steele]

225. And all the kids who actually NEED good teachers end up in garbage dumpsters, as Ayn Rand intended,

How about NOT.

[Spike89]

8. A complex subject without easy answers

I appreciate the research and believe in exploring many options to improve education, including public school choice. One of the big problems judging a school's effectiveness is that the school/teacher is NOT the primary factor in a child's success--parents are. This gets magnified when choice enters the equation. Parents that highly value their child's education (and understand the process) are more likely to a) make an informed decision on which school will best suit their child b) motivate their child to succeed at the choice that they made. Finally, in areas where many parents are involved/motivated, you're more likely to have choice because they demand it.

What much of the research in education shows over and over again is that "solutions" that worked exceptionally well in school "A" generally don't work nearly as well when imposed on school "B". It isn't difficult to see why--the solution isn't nearly as important as the motivation and innovation. You simply can't impose motivation and innovation.

[Catshrink]

9. Word

"You simply can't impose motivation..." The most frustrating thing about education.

[BrentWil]

13. No you certainly can't.. you can however find solutions that work in current circumstances

[BrentWil]

12. Many of the studies take social/economic factors into account and correct for their influence

[Luminous Animal]

176. Some of them aren't studies, at all.

Others, it is impossible to assess the methodology as you've provided no links to the actual research.

[laughingliberal]

42. I see. It's Reagan appreciation day on DU. Unrec. nt

[leftstreet]

45. snort

:spray:

[aspiesrule]

46. Yep you have to be conservative...

to want kids to have a choice of a school that works for them. God damn anyone who doesn't agree with the one size fits all education.

[leftstreet]

47. Not at all. You just have to be wealthy n/t

[aspiesrule]

49. Thats the current system you are talking about

Not the system that most of us are advocating. Thanks for your support.

[laughingliberal]

59. Yes, the current system the RW has fought against funding. Then they can point to how it's failing

Just one more RW 'drowning government in the bathtub' scheme.

[aspiesrule]

65. Money isn't everything...

How the money is spent matters too. I just think one size fits all schools are an outdated system. Being an aspie who was abused in schools... I think I have earned that opinion.

[laughingliberal]

66. Fail. The refusal to adequately fund the public school system is the problem.

No accident. Underfund, scream that they're failing, and start pushing for privatization. Thar's gold in them thar hills!

[aspiesrule]

68. LOL Then how do you explain my friend

The public school spends 20 grand on him, he struggles and barely can maintain a 1.8 GPA. His mom removes him from that school, goes to a private school that costs like 14 grand, he is getting straight As now and is 10 times happier. Oh... but money is the entire problem right?

[laughingliberal]

80. Lol. You ain't seen nothin' yet. Wait til we turn the system over to the for profits.

You're wasting your breath. I was employed as a nurse during the years they sold the public on how turning our hospitals over to the for profits would create competition and bring costs down and improve quality. How's that workin' for you?

[aspiesrule]

82. Whatever you say

I suppose I should go thank all the teachers that abused me and made me suicidal from 7th grade on. God forbid anyone go to a school that is meant for them, I mean so what that when I worked with this kid at summer camp he spent his nights crying himself to sleep, no biggie right?

[laughingliberal]

87. Fund the fucking schools to allow for individual needs. Money IS the problem.

You are not the only aspie in this conversation. Difference is I went to school in the days before the Reagan 'starve the beast' crap went into affect. Again, the plan has always been to cut funding so as to provide inadequate services and then scream that 'government can't do anything right!' Then the vultures move in, take over, become more and more profit driven. Costs go up, quality declines, CEO buys a new yacht. Mission accomplished. I saw what it did for health care. Everyone except the industry execs is worse off. System is astronomically expensive, leaves a lot of people uncared for, destroyed the nurses, and increased medical errors in a big way. Expect the very same if we privatize the school system. It was a scam when Reagan started this crap. It was a scam when Newt was pushing it. It's a scam now. And it will be a scam tomorrow when they succeed in stealing yet another chunk of taxpayer money to enrich the corporate raiders.

[aspiesrule]

88. Was it a scam when teachers unions were pushing for it?

How about when Ted Kennedy was? The public school system spend 20,000 on my friend... he was still struggling horribly and crying himself to sleep at night. 20 grand isn't enough? Really? Then how come he is doing so much better, is so much happier, spending 2/3s of that.

[laughingliberal]

92. I'm sure they got it a lot cheaper from a school we were funding. Not the same thing.

Guess which part didn't happen. Sorry about your friend. But, as I said, I went to school in the days when we funded our system. You are seeing the results of 30 years of 'starve the beast' policy. Time to reverse it.

[aspiesrule]

94. Here is my problem with that...

My mom who is probably also an aspie struggled in schools in the 70s. As did my dad who was probably dyslexic (he denies it but when both of his sons are, chances are he is too). Course at least the public schools taught him to be right handed, we shoud thank them for that, left handed people are so evil! Special needs kids have been struggling in public schools for decades... what exactly is your point? Then when you consider kids that the public education system spends 20,000 on are still struggling... sorry you lost, face it.

[Catshrink]

106. Because of these experiences you're making wholesale pronouncements

about how education should be funded?

Thankfully, you aren't in charge and never will be. Oh wait, Arne Duncan has about as much experience and he is. We're screwed.

[aspiesrule]

134. Yea, thankfully Ryan Patrick Halligan will never be in charge too

Public schools killed his ass... oh well.

[laughingliberal]

226. I lost, face it? ROFL!!!!

In the 70's we did not know much about aspies or ADHD. Your privatization idea would not have helped much back then, either. I am ADHD and apies also. I attended school in the 60's, early 70's. Class size was reasonable and, alhough my teachers did not understand the implications of my particular issues, they did have time to spend with me and I did well in school. Since then, we've been underfunding and starving our schools for resources. It's the RW way, dontcha know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. I knew you sounded familiar!

The friend at summer camp story! Weren't you TS'ed a couple months ago?

[aspiesrule]

162. Uhhh no?

[Catshrink]

178. Uhhhh yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=14856

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=15449

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=15164

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=15312

[donco6]

209. I was right the first time. Good job.

[Catshrink]

180. and bye bye....

[proud2BlibKansan]

204. Thank you mods!

[maryf]

210. +1,000

Profit can be found in any human need...air next...

[CTyankee]

203. Oh, please. I raised money in Greenwich CT where EVERY family I raised money

from sent their kids to PRIVATE school. Please don't tell me that "money didn't make a difference." The very rich send their kids, at great expense to private schools so they can get into Ivy League schools and succeed. Please don't tell me money doesn't matter. The rich --and Greenwich is very, very rich -- don't follow your advice and never has!

Bullshit.

[laughingliberal]

51. You have to be conservative to want to turn yet more of the public money over to profiteers. nt

[aspiesrule]

53. So you are saying that every private/charter school is run by profiteers

Just trying to make sure I understand your arguement so I can better refute it.

[leftstreet]

54. If they were non-profit, wouldn't we call them Public Schools?

:shrug:

[aspiesrule]

61. Uh no...

But wow...

[laughingliberal]

55. I have yet to see one public service privatized that did not result in increased expense & less serv

Feel free to name one. I have yet to find anyone who can. Over time more and more of the funds are diverted to profit and less and less is used to provide service.

[Catshrink]

58. There is ample evidence for this.

Sure there some successful charters but they are overshadowed by corruption and misuse of public funds. Best to just ignore the charter shills.

[BrentWil]

60. One.. very easy to find..

http://www.au.af.mil/awc/africom/documents/kenya_airways.pdf

[laughingliberal]

63. Perhaps one from our country

You know. Where 'uniquely American' means spending more and more of our tax dollars so CEO's don't have to make do with last year's yacht.

[aspiesrule]

67. How about YMCAs building gyms for schools

Happens all over around here. Schools are desperate for new gyms so they can have swimming pools and weightrooms. YMCA (a private coorporation) needs more cheap/free land to build on. So they team up and the YMCA builds a typical YMCA onto the school, it serves its purpose greatly during school hours, then they can use it after school hours. I went to a school without one, and DAMN was I jealous of schools that had it. Their weightrooms were twice as big, the pool was three times nicer, the gyms were a lot cooler, etc. Sadly, I bet your against this arrangement too.

[laughingliberal]

83. Building gyms is not on the level of running an entire school system.

The arrangement is fine. But there is no evidence the YMCA built the gym for less. They had the money and they did it. It benefited the school and the Y. This is, in no way, shape, or form the same as turning the public's money over to a private, for profit system to provide education for all the nation's children.

[aspiesrule]

84. How much money would have the land that the gym was built on have cost?

Though looking beyond that, just curious, what % of private/charter schools are for-profits, I have always heard it was far less then half. Do you have evidence to the countray

[laughingliberal]

100. Not the same thing. I'm sure the school we built was able to offer the land cheaper.

The real question is what percentage will go for profit if we go down this road and what will happen to the not for profits when we do. We still have some not for profit hospitals around, too. But they are now just as expensive as the for profits. The whole system becomes contaminated when you start turning the public money over to private systems. I've seen it in health care. I've seen it in our state where they privatized the state workers' disability system, I've seen it in our military where we now contract out services the military once handled themselves. In every case, EVERY case, the bill got higher and services got worse and harder to access. You're being scammed.

[aspiesrule]

105. I got no services

Hard for it to get worse.

[laughingliberal]

114. I did

As I said, I was in school in the days before the RW set out to defund and destroy our government. Time to make it a priority and restore funding. Money IS the problem.

[aspiesrule]

142. So your education was perfect?

Wonder why my parents would argue with that...

[laughingliberal]

227. Not perfect but nothing is perfect. But I was in a public school system that was funded.

And I did well, yes. Your parents experience may be different. It sounds as if they are a bit younger than me which means you have really not ever lived in a world where we funded our public services. Having no experiece with which to contrast the current, underfunded system you are ripe for the picking. Whatever new snake oil the RW is selling in an attempt to divert more tax money into corporate coffers to benefit a few at the expense of the many is good by you.

[Luminous Animal]

179. Non-profit does not mean that money is not being made,

and allocated to the operators and cohorts in the education industry.

People really do not understand non-profit, at all. Several GOP operatives run non-profits and audits usually reveal relatives on the payroll, and rent and services paid to facilities owned by the operative or family members.

[WinkyDink]

253. As noted, a pool does not a school system make. Nor does swimming get a standardized test.

[BrentWil]

72. Okay..

Homestead Act of 1862, Chicago's Parking , Fedex (alot more trusting of them then the USPS)...

[laughingliberal]

109. ROFL! Fed Ex costs a lot more than USPS. And we don't fund them with tax payer dollars. nt

[BrentWil]

125. Actually, they do..

Each year, traditionally around $30m a year, http://www.lunewsviews.com/psnews.htm ... plus fedex has never lost anything of mine and the post office themselves contracts their priority mail to them.

[Hannah Bell]

166. the post office has never lost anything of mine. in 50 years.

and the fed ex contract is a george bush policy.

telling you admire it. rentier economy.

[BrentWil]

222. I don't care..

I just know who I trust when it is something important and it ain't the USPS

[laughingliberal]

229. See how easy that was? You have a choice when you use your own money.

I don't want my tax dollars going to a company that diverts some of it to profit, and I don't want to pay their prices. People who want to spend their own money on a private school are free to do so. My tax dollars need to go to properly funding the public school system.

[donco6]

238. Really? Why?

We ship with them all the time. Works great. We use the others, too. But most times the USPS price is better.

[BrentWil]

56. Or pragmatic and in search of a better world.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aspiesrule]

70. I have a feeling we are fighting a losing battle

People that were served well by public schools and work with them, never could believe that public schools don't serve everyone good. That is pretty sad but true.

[laughingliberal]

123. I know the public schools aren't doing well. The RW has fought adequate funding.

And you're right. You will not get far with life long Democrats by colluding with the Reagan/Norquist 'starve the beast' plan.

[aspiesrule]

170. So more funding ALONE will make the public education system better?

I am sorry I have to disagree with that. Can you give me an example where throwing money at the problem will solve it alone?

[Luminous Animal]

186. Parents of children who attend elite private schools seem to believe

that throwing money at the "problem" goes a long way to solving it.

[laughingliberal]

216. Disagree all you want.

Nice RW talking point there "throwing money at a problem.' Does seem to work better than the Reagan/Norquist solution of starving the system. More money means more teachers, smaller classes, more individual attention, more supplies, programs to help students with special needs. We have starved the system til it can't function. Their plan is working perfectly.

[Catshrink]

127. And no public institution will meet every single person's needs

It is sad, but it's a reality. You can whine about it or overcome the obstacles.

[aspiesrule]

145. Maslows hierachy of needs

If a kid is being bullied, assulted, belittled, etc., there is no way in hell they will overcome the obstacles. I might seem the exception to the rule, but I actually acheived far less in school then I was capable of, and mostof that was thanks to my mom's assistance.

[laughingliberal]

217. Diverting the public funds for a few cherry picked students in charter and private schools

is not the solution. It benefits the cherry picked and leaves the rest of the system with still less resources. This is exactly what the RW has been pushing. The more funding they divert from the system, the worse it will do, the more they will scream how the system is failing. Of course the system is failing. They've been at work starving it for 30 years.

[Starry Messenger]

57. With CATO foundation sponsorship

It's free market Olympics kids, yay!!

[laughingliberal]

64. +1000 nt

[waiting for hope]

233. Ha! + 1 zillion.

[The Straight Story]

69. Choice ONLY matters when it comes to abortion. Schools, Where to drink, etc, need to be controlled

For me, pro-choice is more than one issue - it is a broader ideal that really believes 'Your body, your choice'. You won't find many who truly believe such a thing though.

You don't need, should not have, choices - if you make ones that others do not like.

I home school - because I can and that choice is best for my daughter. Some don't think I should be able to.

I don't own a gun, or have a CC permit. But my dad does, and some think he should not have such a choice.

I choose, when I used to be able to go out and have a few drinks, to go to a bar that allowed smoking. Some believe that allowing businesses and people to make such choices is bad and they need to make those choices for them.

My sister had a choice to home school her kids, and did so. But others will rail against such choices. They want to tell her and her family how to live their lives.

Pro-choice - it has a core value and it shocks me often that people who claim to be pro-choice really are not.

[aspiesrule]

71. *hands you a flame proof jacket*

Ummm you might want to put that on, you will be needing it soon.

[The Straight Story]

76. Sad one would need a flame proof jacket to be pro-choice

But there it is :)

[donco6]

91. That explains a lot. n/t

[bluestateguy]

96. I'm inclined to agree

But while I agree with your point on choice (the right to homeschool, own a gun, watch porn, smoke pot or cigarettes, etc.), there is a difference between that, and the government subsidizing your choice to a private school that may well be exclusive, religious, and/or bigoted.

[aspiesrule]

99. Or it could not be.

There are a lot of public school teachers out there that are bigoted (trust me, aspies see a different side of things a lot of times.) Are we really going to hold all private schools accountable for that? Beyond that it should be the kids money, not the public school systems money, not the teachers money, not the teachers unions money, but the kids money and the kids money only.

[laughingliberal]

223. +1000 nt

[laughingliberal]

118. You can make any choice you want with your own money. Tax dollars need to fund the public schools.

And we need to adequately fund them so they are effective. Turning yet another public service over to private industry (along with our tax dollars) will have the same result it has with every other system when we've done that.

We never learn.

[aspiesrule]

151. So you disagree with tax dollars going to any public coorporations?

What about doctor's offices? Psycatrist offices? Etc. Can tax dollars go to them?

[laughingliberal]

218. I think we're all well aware of where for profit health care got us.

And it wasn't doctor's fees that destroyed the system. It was the conversion of our hospital system to a for profit system. The conversion of the hospital system to a private, for profit industry is the analogy for what you are proposing.

[mmonk]

73. I'm against privatization. My response

is contained within this piece on a particular school system: http://americancommentary.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/suffer-the-children-the-war-on-public-education-one-school-districts-story/">Here.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrentWil]

78. Yep, I have GOP backers who support my polices of higher taxes on the rich and giving it to poor

parants.. every word I writes gets me a little more money.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

75. I worked on this study many years ago. The evidence is inconclusive at best. Some "school choice"

approaches work. Others don't. Some of them work simply due to the underlying economic/structural conditions inherent in a given neighborhood. Regardless of the approach, when you change the underlying, systemic conditions and work to improve them, you'll find that most policies will work.

To be fair and honest, we as progressives need to start holding the teachers' unions accountable as well. Our argument against conservative policies like education vouchers is weakened as long as we are not honest about the stronghold that the teachers' unions have on the Democratic Party and the impact on public education as a whole. Innovative approaches, improvements in teacher preparedness are a must.

[BrentWil]

77. Well, certainly other factors matter..

You can look at students in the same economic conditions and figure out plans that work better then others. That is what most academic work does.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

201. Of course, but the purpose was to conduct empirical work and to make sure that what we

found reaffirmed those assumptions. And what we concluded was that there is no conclusive evidence that ALL forms of school choice policies work or that there were demonstrable results that could be generalized. That was the point that I was simply trying to make.

[donco6]

89. Some stronghold.

The AFT president just made a movie extolling the virtues of charters.

And the NEA is breathing its last.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

202. A very interesting story on the power/influence of the teachers' unions and how

the Obama administration is take them on. See May 23rd's New York Time magazine's expose on the unions called "Are Teachers' Unions the Enemy of Reform?" It's worth the read. Very interesting.

And for the record, I'm not condemning the unions outright. (I belong to one.) However, if we are going to hold the right accountable for their intellectual dishonesty regarding education vouchers and a host of other issues where they've not been proven right, then we must hold our own accountable where it is overdue.

[laughingliberal]

235. No surprise, there

The Obama administration has no problem whatsoever standing up to workers. No daylight between them and the right on that front.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

241. I agree with you on this. He seems hellbent on throwing progressives under the bus. I don't understa

the disdain for liberals/progressives. I just don't.

[Spike89]

147. Exactly! Even bad ideas can work...

It is amazing and so hard for so many people to grasp...pay attention to schools and they do better. In many ways, schools are super affected by the placebo effect. That is because when people pay attention to schools, parents pay attention and so do students. Coming up with gimmicks, plans to gut and rebuild the system, and virtually all privatization plans will have the same short term boosts to any criteria you publicize.

Improving the schools isn't a trick and it doesn't require tossing out a system that has been a global model. Fund them like we used to, then increase that level because education is important. Pay teachers, pay them a lot. Make it once again a profession that our best and brightest aspire to. I do get that the best teachers aren't truly salary driven, but the truth is that in our society, salary is virtually a measure of respect.

[Hannah Bell]

79. those studies don't show shit. only one actually looks at schools, & it's a tiny study from 1998.

i notice you didn't link them either.

[BrentWil]

81. THey all look at schools with different sample sizes and use different types of academic methods.

There is no link, because they are not publicly available on the web. If you would like the PDF of any of them, please message me

[Hannah Bell]

85. no, they don't.

[aspiesrule]

86. Proof that they don't?

[Hannah Bell]

120. read the abstracts: carefully.

[BrentWil]

128. IF you wish for the studies, I can provide them for you...

[aspiesrule]

167. She doesn't

She just wishes to downplay your evidence. Keep going I like it.

[laughingliberal]

219. I'm well aware of the 'facts' the RW has been pushing in their quest to divert more of our tax dolla

to private, for profit industries. They need to fund our public school system adequately not start diverting our tax dollars into charter and private schools to benefit the cherry picked students and the corporation's bottom line.

[DefenseLawyer]

101. Let me ask you a question sir, what is this country doing for the doomed?

they’re doomed, they’re lost, they’re helpless, they’re somebody else’s meal, they’re like pigs in the wilderness.


Fuck the doomed!



H.S.T. R.I.P.

[BrentWil]

107. Well, something I was going to do was ensure they had money and resources to get a better education.

Sorry I can't solve the worlds problems with this thread.

[DefenseLawyer]

124. Your "selected" students are not the issue. They'll do fine. n/t

[BrentWil]

131. If you saw what I wrote,

Only the poor would get this benefit and all of them would get it.

[DefenseLawyer]

144. And who is paying to send every child in America to private schools?

And who is building all these private schools? Because guess what? There isn't enough space in private schools to send "everyone" to private schools. And how exactly do you force private schools to take "every" child? Not only that, once you overwhelm private schools with the sheer number of students this would entail it will either cost more than the national debt or we will have the same over crowded subpar schools, but at a much higher cost to taxpayers. Sorry. This is typical free market bullshit where the true end goal is to destroy a public good and replace it with a privatized system at a hefty profit. It is utterly impractical and could never be done. Next.

[BrentWil]

153. Did I say that every child would go to private schools...

What I said was each child in poverty would get get an amount of money (10K). That could be used wherever the parents sent the child. If it was a public school, the district would get federal money for child that came from poverty. If the tuition was lower then 10K the parent could save it for later educational use.

[DefenseLawyer]

158. And children whose families are above the poverty line can suck it in bad schools?

Oh right, they have to in order to keep your scheme profitable.

[aspiesrule]

164. Most private schools are not for profits

But nice try :)

[DefenseLawyer]

169. Directors and administrators of non-profits work for free?

Wow, I'm impressed. See? It's all free. Free money doled out to the poor by a private "non-profit" all for free. We need to get started on this right now.

[aspiesrule]

172. LOL do principals work for free?

What about super-indentants? Does Duncan work for free? Do teachers work for free? Being a not-for-profit doesn't mean you work for free.

[BrentWil]

192. It doesn't have to be a private school. It is federal money and could easily go to the local

public school.

[laughingliberal]

220. Oh, just wait til we open the gates for tax dollars to start being paid to them.

Hide and watch how fast that changes. We've seen this movie before. We know how it ends.

[BrentWil]

182. What are you talking about?

I would means test it and slowly eliminate the benefit as income goes up

[aspiesrule]

163. Why would every parent in America want to educate their kid in private schools

Aren't all kids being educated perfectly in public schools?

[laughingliberal]

221. No, they are not. We have been underfunding the public schools for years

The answer is not to further cut their funding and send the lucky few, cherry picked students to private or charter schools.

[laughingliberal]

129. Sure. We see how well all the competition and free market crap worked out for our health care system

:)

[BrentWil]

135. Bad example...

That hasn't really been a free market since before WWII

[laughingliberal]

211. That's why I called it free market crap. Results will be exactly as they've been in health care.

It's a scam the RW has been selling to Americans for the past 30 years.

[aspiesrule]

168. You misunderstand

We are advocating public funding to whatever the individual feels they need, like single-payer health care would be. Do you really think that if we pass single-payer health care all hospitals and medical offices will suddenly be run by the government? Of course not, but you advocate that don't you?

[laughingliberal]

213. I understand perfectly. You're being deceived.

Sounds good. Will be disastrous in practice. Just like every other privatization scam the RW has sold us for 30 years. I believe you might be sincere in thinking this will work. Many Americans thought Reagan's philosophies sounded good. We reap the results now and, yet, some still cling to them.

All for profit health care should go the way of the dinosaur. I was a nurse before this disaster was implemented. People got real care. Today, they pay a fortune for hit or miss care and the sociopaths pocket the money and laugh all the way to the bank.

[knitter4democracy]

214. We're teaching them. Send them my way.

Those of us in alternative education are taking those cast-offs who are bringing down test scores and getting them to graduate and succeed.

[WinkyDink]

156. May all those in favor have to plan a public school budget, with staff, sports teams, textbook pur-

chases, bus routes, etc.

[Xithras]

161. Correlation/Causation etc. etc.

Study after study has consistently proven that the single largest factor in the academic success of a child is the involvement of the childs parents in their education. Students from well funded, highly respected public schools still fail if mom and/or dad aren't involved and make no effort to ensure the quality of their childs education. Students from underfunded, crime filled schools have excelled when their parents are actively involved in their education.

Parents are a childs first teachers, and parents remain the most important part of a childs education until adulthood. The best funded school, with the most eager teachers, the best crime prevention programs, and the greatest art and sports programs, won't keep a kid interested and succeeding if they go home every night to parents who aren't involved and don't care about their kids education.

Students who participate in school choice programs, by definition, have parents who are actively involved and care about their educations. Even without changing schools, this gives them an academic advantage.

When compared against the background masses of kids who did NOT participate in school choice programs, kids whose parents run the gamut from "sitting with the kid to do homework every night" to "vaguely aware that there are little people in the house", there's naturally going to be a documentable difference in the academic achievement of the two groups. One is comprised entirely of children with involved parents, and the other is a mix of involved and uninvolved people. A third grader, from a public school without choice and with uninvolved parents, could tell you the result of THAT comparison.

I would be interested to see an academic comparison between students who do, and do not, participate in school choice, filtered by parental involvement (say, 5 hours a week minimum spent assisting the child with their studies). I would guess that such a comparison would show no net performance difference between the two populations.

[BrentWil]

183. The studies correct for this..

And factor in where the child comes from. THey still find an affect from the type of school

[gravity]

165. The studies seem promising

It is one of the few school reforms that actually have some evidence of improving outcomes.

I don't see a need an area with good public schools, but they should try it in failing school districts as long as the charter schools are well regulated and held up to the standards of the state.

There really isn't many other ideas out there to help improve the education of the students in these districts.

[Hannah Bell]

171. the studies aren't studies. there are plenty of ideas; they just don't benefit the rulers.

[BrentWil]

185. Really? How so... where is the data/analysis error in the studies..

Again, if you want to PDF of any, just message me.

[Luminous Animal]

181. Where did you read these studies?

The OP didn't provide the links and if you search for them, you can only bring up the abstract. Some of them aren't even studies.

[BrentWil]

189. If you want the PDF, just email me..

They aren't publicly available on the internet.

[Luminous Animal]

194. I was asking Gravity.

Perhaps I'll email you when I get home from work.

[aspiesrule]

174. A little help here...

Charter schools are evil right. Well I was looking at this story, that was describing charter schools, yet it didn't seem evil. So I looked at the schools website... and it STILL didn't look evil. So maybe some of you can help me out here... and tell me how it is evil.

News article: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705354696/New-help-for-autism.html (wimp, I stopped having to be dragged to school when I was 12... after then I just gave up)
Schools website: http://www.spectrumcharter.org/ (I hate the puzzle piece, but still don't see the evilness).

[Gormy Cuss]

184. "After Milwaukee"

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/september-october-magazine/after-milwaukee

After Milwaukee

By Frederick M. Hess Wednesday, September 24, 2008

Nearly two decades have passed since the enactment of the landmark Milwaukee Parental Choice Program by the Wisconsin legislature. The program and its many supporters had hoped this experiment in school choice would lead the way in transforming American schools. But it is by now clear that aggressive reforms to bring market principles to American education have failed to live up to their billing.
(snip)
Yet things have not worked out as intended. Chester Finn Jr., chair of the Hoover Institution’s Koret Task Force on K–12 Education and a champion of choice-based reform since the 1980s, has voiced “growing sympathy” with choice skeptics and warned against “too much trust in market forces.”

Even staunch proponents of school choice are conceding disappointment. Earlier this year, Weekly Standard contributor Daniel Casse reported, “The two most recent studies show that, since the implementation of the voucher program, reading scores across all Milwaukee schools are falling.” Howard Fuller, patron saint of the voucher program, has wryly acknowledged, “I think that any honest assessment would have to say that there hasn’t been the deep, wholesale improvement in MPS that we would have thought.”

Remember that AEI and Hoover are the kinds of institutes that one would expect to support market based models.

[BrentWil]

188. I have provided studies that contradict that..

And that isn't what I would suggest we do anyway. You have to target vouchers to the poor.

[Gormy Cuss]

193. Why do you have to target vouchers to the poor? Why not just fund their public schools?

I could systematically gather the resources to refute each of your citations but Hannah Bell already made an effort in that direction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8472465&mesg_id=8472465

Public schools can and have done a good job educating low income children. It takes enough funding to hire and keep qualified teachers, safe and up-to-date school campuses, and books and other educational tools. Vouchers bleed off public funds that are already in short supply.

[BrentWil]

195. Because I want the power with the poor..

Not public schools. Give families some choice. If there is money attached to their kids, schools will want that kid, rather public or private. Funding isn't everything. New York states spends an amazing 16K per student,http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/of-all-states-new-york-schools-spend-most-money-per-pupil/ . However, there are serious problems. The method I propose gets resources to those most in need, and provides a measure of power to them.

[Gormy Cuss]

199. If you want to empower the poor, fund the public schools and public universities.

Funding is almost everything. It also requires a community commitment to public education and vouchers undermine that.

Parents already have education choice. They can home school or they can send their kids to parochial or other private schools on their own dime. Vouchers are parental choice subsidized by tax payers at the cost of funding to public schools. It's that simple.


eta: another thread link for you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8471844&mesg_id=8471844

[BrentWil]

200. It would be federal money..

Not taking away from any current funding source.

[Gormy Cuss]

205. Federal money is taxpayer money.

Take the same funds and give them to the school districts.

[BrentWil]

206. For what results?

Why not give power to people instead of public schools? Let them decide.

[Gormy Cuss]

207. The results of better educations for all children regardless of parental circumstances.

Public schools are power to the people.

[BrentWil]

208. 16K per student hasn't helped in NY...

WHy not empower the poor with 10K. If they take it to the public school, so be it. If they don't, so be it. They know what is best for their kid.

[laughingliberal]

230. There you have it. 10K won't get you through the door of most private schools.

You give a poor kid a voucher that pays part of the tuition and his parents can't make up the difference. This program is about giving our tax dollars to the well off to send their kids to private schools and rob the public schools of still more resources.

[knitter4democracy]

246. Where do you live? That's more than they cost here.

We pulled our kids out of the Catholic elementary when it $10K a year for two kids, and the high school is definitely under that a year, as well.

[BrentWil]

261. The person can send the kid to public school...

And the system would get the money. Plus the average rate of private schools is less then 10K . It is $8,549 http://www.capenet.org/facts.html

[jmowreader]

190. I've ranted against vouchers before...

I'm the headmaster at a private school. I charge $20,000 per year, all expenses paid, because all my teachers have Ph.D's, all my technology is state of the art, we've got an electron microscope, a particle accelerator, an Oxford English Dictionary, and a gymnasium built from the blueprints for New Boston Garden, the lunchroom has a chef I recruited from a Michelin two-star restaurant who cooks only organic gourmet meals...and all my graduates receive full-ride scholarships from the top universities like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech and Duke. We are the state's largest producer of pre-med, pre-law and pre-you-name-it students. People willingly pay the twenty bills a year because it's worth it--in fact, I've got a waiting list.

If the government comes in and gives every parent a $5000 voucher to use at any school they want, I am going to immediately raise my tuition to $25,000 per year. Why not? The parents will still be paying $20,000 per year and I can use the extra money to create a Social Studies Seminar consisting of putting the kids on a plane and sending them to a foreign country for two weeks--a different one every year.

Any private school that opens in response to vouchers coming out is going to believe the source of all truth is the Bible so they'll try using the New Testament as a chemistry book.

[BrentWil]

191. If you read the thread, the vouchers would be for low income families

And would fad out as income goes up. As a condition of receiving the voucher, you would have to accept certain conditions on your curriculum.

I also, highly doubt the truthfulness of your post

[jmowreader]

196. Watch the "conditions" fade away...

also watch the means-testing part go away. The people who are pushing vouchers fall into at least one of two broad categories: rich people who have their kids in private schools now but hate the idea that their taxes are going to public schools, and hardcore Christians who don't want to support a public school system that offends their religious sensibilities. So...you're a fundie who pulls down $200k/year as the CEO of a Bible distributor; you probably would not support a voucher initiative you couldn't personally take advantage of.

BTW, I make printing plates at a newspaper. My product costs 75 cents most days, and $2 on Sundays.

[BrentWil]

197. I can't take advantage of it..

nor would I support one that wasn't targeted to those who needed it.

[jmowreader]

242. You're probably not one of the ones pushing it

People of modest means who don't want their kids in public school tend to homeschool, or they've got them in a Christian school with a good scholarship program. (Look at small Catholic schools, the kind that are still small enough to use the church's fellowship building as classroom space. If you're a member of the church who owns the school, they will figure out how to get your kids in. You probably wouldn't see that with the ginormous one we've got in CDA, but in a real small one they still do it.) The people who are the most vocal about wanting vouchers don't really need them--they just don't want to pay taxes.

I don't know, but as a LIBERAL who got all his education from publicly-funded institutions, I tend to think we need to fix the public schools. They are NOT irreparably broken! There is nothing wrong with the public schools that spending the right amount of money in the right way--hiring the right people, having them led by people who don't have privatization as their agenda, and buying the right materials--will not fix.

[BrentWil]

260. The people who are the most vocal about wanting vouchers don't really need them

Actually, I agree. The resources have to be targeted for it to work.

[BrentWil]

198. I can't take advantage of it..

nor would I support one that wasn't targeted to those who needed it.

[laughingliberal]

231. +10,000 nt

[knitter4democracy]

215. Actually cleaning up their schools and making them work works better.

There is school choice in my state (Michigan), and there are free options (charters). The governor threatened to close most of the charters in Detroit for failing to meet standards awhile back--those same schools you're proposing the parents send their kids to.

I teach in a unionized charter school, an alternative high school run by the local district. Our choice exists, too.

[BrentWil]

232. Again,

I want parants to have the power. I am not saying anything works in all situations.

[knitter4democracy]

244. Parents do have that power, even in poor neighborhoods.

Charters are free, most private schools (not just in our area) have sliding scale fees and scholarships available, and there's always homeschooling. There are options available, but many parents aren't aware of them. I run into parents all the time who don't know their rights when it comes to having a child with special needs (don't know about 504s or IEPs or any of it). Part of it is parents not looking for their options, and part of it is not enough money to market schools properly. Our local paper does a supplement at the end of the summer every year with big ads for all the public and private schools in our county, with the charters paying big bucks for the full-page ads, but even then, people say they've never heard of this or that school.

When I taught in Cleveland, I was amazed at all the educational options available. There were hundreds of schools kids could choose from, many of which were free. It's the same in every metropolitan area--it's the rural areas I worry about more. Not enough population to sustain a big charter school and a local public school.

[BrentWil]

271. And part of the problem is that school have no reason to want them to attend...

Give them some money attached to them and you give them power.

[LWolf]

234. Public school choice works

without privatization or union-busting, with more regulation to prevent fraud and abuse, without selection/segregation of students for class, race, religious, or political reasons.

If we dumped the intense focus from private and corporate groups to privatize public education, we could instead focus on expanding choice within the public school system.

But then, for the privatizers and union-busters, "choice" is part of their propaganda. The nation's voters have allowed them to standardize a dysfunctional and destructive model of education for public schools, making private schools and charter schools more appealing. If we focused on giving public schools and the public school system the flexibility and incentive to expand choice within public districts, it wouldn't favor privatization, and "choice" would no longer be so important to them.

Privatization and union-busting, in any form, is anti-Democratic Party. The fact that the so-called "New" Democrats are embracing conservative REPUBLICAN dogma is appalling, to say the least. The fact that Democrats are nominating and electing "New" Democrats, turning their back on the party's core values, helps to make the Democratic Party dysfunctional, ineffective, and irrelevant.

The enemy within is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the enemy without.

Once upon a time, when this board actually bore some resemblance to a "left-wing" discussion board, favoring privatization over public education, under the guise of "choice" or any other Republican propaganda, wouldn't have been considered. It says a great deal to me about this board and the Democratic Party that supporters of privatization and union busting regularly appear on education threads, and start threads pushing privatization.

[CTyankee]

236. my grandson's school is a good example of public school innovation.

He just finished his kindergarten year at a public school that offered 90% immersion in 3 foreign languages: German, Spanish and Italian. My grandson is in the Italian class. The school also offers traditional kindergarten classes. It is a very good school and has a very diverse population, reflecting the community it is in.

There was a problem, however. My duaghter lives in the LA County school system. My grandson's school is in Glendale. To go out of district my daughter simply had to say that there was no LA County school that offered Italian immersion. But then the County school Superintendent tried to stop the practice because the district lost money. The Superintendent has since dropped his opposition, mostly because he did it so late in the year, after pre-registrations at schools had been arranged.

In this instance, you have parents who either a) speak another languagae and would like their child speak/learn it in school, b) have an ethnic connection in the family with the "heritage" language or c) neither of the above, but want their children to learn another language besides English. The Glendale schools also have programs in Korean and Armenian (reflecting the diverse population of the area). Several of these parents had already sought out and even proposed the idea of foreign language immersion programs within the LA County School district but were ignored. These parents are actively involved in the school as volunteers and the kids are doing very well.

I realize that this situation could be viewed by some as either oddball or maybe crypto-racist but this is far from a lily white school and it has helped preserve a public school that has been in the community since the 1920s.

Of course, there are funding issues involved but here is an innovative idea that could be replicated within the LA County schools. In this case it is not public vs. private schools, it is a question of "thinking outside of the box."

[BrentWil]

239. it is a question of "thinking outside of the box."

Agreed

[LWolf]

250. Immersion schools are one great example of choices that public ed

can, and should, offer. Our students are better educated and more well-rounded when they are multilingual. We need support to make these kinds of choices wide-spread in the regular system. Without a concentrated focus and support for fundamental shifts, it's hard to make it happen on a wide scale.

[CTyankee]

258. I wish you could see this school! When I visit, I notice a sea of diversity

and some really dedicated teachers and administrators. I've also attended the evening parent meetings with my daughter. Their involvement is extraordinary! The physical plant of the school is certainly not grand. In fact, it is kinda spartan but there is a lot of positive energy! I think this kind of program, woven into the traditional school's fabric, attracts parents who "get it" about multilingual education but maybe for different reasons. And the Italian class is no different in terms of energy and enthusiasm from the German and the Spanish classes...

I've even had to sharpen up my Italian when I visit the classroom, since maestra doesn't allow English spoken during the 90% of Italian immersion that the kids get every day...! So when I "help" I have to do it in my rudimentary Italian...oh boy...

[BrentWil]

237. How is what I suggesting union busting?

Did I mention taking away anyones freedom to associate?

My beliefs belong more in the Democratic party then the Republican party. Thus, I am a Democrat. We are allowed to disagree with each other and have different views. But I don't see how someone that believes in more tax on the rich, gay rights, pro-choice, pro-immegrant, and thinks that people need universal health care belongs in the GOP.

[knitter4democracy]

245. Charters and private schools aren't unionized.

If they are, the union is very weak, usually, unless (like mine) a public school district runs the charter school.

When I taught in the Catholic schools in Cleveland, it was made very clear to us that, if we mentioned unionizing (and this at a very liberal school), we'd be fired immediately. Those peace-and-justice sisters would not tolerate talk of solidarity and unions.

[BrentWil]

251. The money doesn't have to go to a charter school

It could very well end up in a pubic school

[knitter4democracy]

252. Your Freudian slip is showing.

Charters are public schools, by the way, that are free because of being supported by tax dollars. So, yes, some of that money would go to a public school, but it doesn't mean it would go to the local public school system.

[BrentWil]

259. That isn't what I am saying..

I am saying that the money could go to the local public school district if the child goes there. It would be up the the parents. If they do decide on that, then the public schools, not charters, get the money.

[LWolf]

254. Union-busting is one of the main goals of the charter movement.

Study the history, and the way it has played out across the nation. Look at the powerful supporters, and examine their agenda. "Choice" is the carrot to draw people in. It's a tool to achieve goals that are inimical to public education, not a goal in itself.

See the forest.

[donco6]

240. Yes.

It's sad how far we've fallen here.

My district is a district of choice - all public schools. www.mapleton.us

It can be done, but districts need help to pull it off. They don't need to be destroyed.

[LWolf]

248. Your district is a perfect example. With a focus on supporting

that kind of choice, there would be no purpose in charter schools.

[BrentWil]

268. How would this sort of federal money destroy them?

[BrentWil]

243. I find it interesting that no one has asked for me to email them the study...

I mean, it like people here aren't even interested in looking at the truth.

[knitter4democracy]

247. It's because those of us in education know most education studies are crap.

Too small study sizes, many variables not taken into account, and on and on. Why would I want to read the study only to find that it's crap? I can find other studies that entirely contradict everything you've posted, so why bother reading it?

[BrentWil]

249. because that isn't the majority of the evidence...

And because many of the studies I posted do correct for what you are worried about.

[knitter4democracy]

255. I doubt it. I've read too many studies in my time.

They're usually very good in how they write the study in order to hide the bias and hide the flaws and weaknesses. After years of reading JAMA and the New England Journal, I'm not impressed with the so-called evidence out there. What about the studies that show charter schools (and often private schools as well) have lower test scores than their host district? That one's clear enough that our governor was looking at revoking charters.

I've taught in Catholic schools and now a charter. I've interviewed and subbed in privates, charters, and public high schools. Kids are kids no matter where you go, but the rest are only as good as their principal. Fix the administration, and you're more than halfway to fixing a school.

[BrentWil]

257. Love the amount of academic curiosity the board shows when there is evidence the world doesn't work

the way you think it does.

[DebJ]

266. Sure its better. All the troubled kids get shoved out of the

charter schools and come back to public school. They only keep the best. We see it every year.

[BrentWil]

267. It isn't about charter, public, or private schools..

It is about making kids worth something to this society by giving them educational resources.

[MadHound]

269. You want to give them educational resources, then start fully funding public education

Our current funding model for public education has finally broken. Relying on the property tax base of a district, with decisions placed in the hands of the voters and having the electoral process stacked against education by requiring a supermajority of voters to approve and educational funding decisions is a certain recipe for disaster, as we're seeing.

Rather than basing funding upon the districts property tax base, we need to have a more equitable distribution of education funds. We need to take funding decisions out of the hands of voters, and stop allowing those who aren't experts in education, who have a political agenda (I'm talking of the Christian right who've taken over many school boards) to direct how our schools are funded and the direction our schools take.

Oh, and we need to inject more money into education. You want the best teachers, then you've got to start paying for them. You want the best facilities, you've got to pay for them. We've spent the last forty years trying to run our education system at the least possible cost, and when the predictable problems arise, we blame teachers, students or administrators rather than they politicians who actually set policy.

Charter schools and private schools are simply another assault on public education. They continue to drive down the wages of teachers, drive down the amount spent on facilities and infrastructure, and ultimately drive down the quality of education.

This arises from the misguided notion that we can run education on a capitalist model, turning out students like widgets for the lowest possible cost. This simply doesn't work, students aren't widgets and schools are factories. In the top rated education countries we don't see this. Schools in Japan and Finland are fully funded, teachers are well paid and respected, which draws the best qualified teachers.

Following your economic model is what got us into the mess we're in. Continuing to follow such a failed model only guarantees that our children won't get the full education they deserve.

[BrentWil]

270. A few points..

1. THe best way to get the right resources to the right places is by doing it on a per capita basis. If you give the money to the poor and allow them to make the choice, the money will follow them. In other words, if they take it to their local district, that district will receive federal money. Whoever educates the poor will receive the money.

2. I agree with certain controls on curriculum. As a pre-condition to receiving federal money, schools need to have some controls over what they teach. In other words, real science in the science room, not religion.

3. Money does not solve all problems. NY state schools spend over 16K per student.

4. The point is that they are widgets now. The poor are simply a statistic. Providing them with direct access to power and choice is the means to make society value them.