Am I alone here? I find a memorial day that singles out Americans offensive.

[howard112211]

Especially during times where America is engaged in wars of aggression. Why? Because it is an affront to the victims of America, if they are left out of the commemoration. The soldiers that died on the "highway of death" for instance, didn't choose the policy either. Plus the act of killing them indiscriminately is viewed as a warcrime by many experts. So why are they not mentioned on memorial day? Making the argument that soldiers should be commemorated independent of what the orders are which they were following, since they didn't choose them, is certainly a valid point of view. But if you single out a specific group of soldiers and not mention the others, you are elevating the sacrifice of one group, and thus diminishing that of the other group. Thus the argument becomes hypocritical, since it is not the soldier per se which is being commemorated.

Would we see it as offensive if Germany introduced a day celebrating the memory of their "fallen hero's" of the second world war, that did not mention the victims of Germany, the soldiers of the "other side" and the fact that Germany started the war? Probably yes.

[LAGC]

1. Shut up and support the troops!

Memorial Day really irks me too.

[UndertheOcean]

2. Totally agree with what you said.

[jobycom]

3. A nation has to form a cult around its military if it wants to be a militaristic nation.

Memorial Day isn't so much about our fallen, it's about creating a cult of worship and idolization around the idea of the military, to romanticize and glorify it. If you tell an 18 year old to sign up to become cannon fodder and die for a politician they probably wouldn't vote for anyway, the 18 year old is going to act like any sane person and refuse. If you tell that 18 year old to join an elite corp of heroes who will forever be immortalized as the bravest and the best America has to offer, you'll get a less sane but more desired response. If you create a cult around America and all its symbols, and demonize the enemy as a threat to family and friends and God and everything else, the 18 year old will be chomping at the bit to become one of those heroes.

Nationalism, patriotism, worship of the uniform, and immortalizing of those who die in war are all tools necessary to convince anyone to go to war. Label anyone who rejects those fake ideals as traitors and abettors of the enemy, and you stifle most resistance at the same time. Sparta did it, Rome did it, the Soviet Union did it, Japan did it, we do it...

I don't mind a holiday to honor our fallen. They deserve the honor. I despise the people who politicize it, though. They use the sacrifice of our military to wave flags and romanticize war and criticize those who work for peace, and by doing so they spit on the graves of the people they pretend to be honoring.

[unhappycamper]

4. A very dear Veterans For Peace friend of mine told me the same thing last month.

It's still rattling around in my brain processing.

[PufPuf23]

11. A very well-written expression of reality and empathy for the victim and heroes. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. I cannot *stand* the holiday.

For all the reasons you mentioned plus the mindless bloviating of the media and the conflation of the "honor the dead" with "support all things military". Witness all the moronic air shows and the like that categorize the celebration of the holiday around the country.

The holiday was created to honor the dead; not to mythologize them.

[aquart]

6. You want to weep for Nazi soldiers?

You go ahead. And be sure to tell any soldier you meet that you're honoring his victims as well.

What silly, sanctimonious parsing.

[howard112211]

9. So you are saying that all German soldiers were nazis?

Get it. So you think the soldier sets the policy after all. Good that we have clarified that.

"Tell that to a soldier. He will whoop your ass."

Ah, the good old bullying line.

Maybe. We had a few show up at sparring class. They are not generally all that tough, unarmed one on one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

52. Absolute bald-faced 100% misquote. Why would you do that?

Why would you imply that the reply you were posting to said ANYTHING like "He will whoop your ass."?

You tough boxer you... I like the way you slid that in there... at sparring class. They have classes in sparring do they? You needed to take a class in that? Sparring? Seriously? Seriously?

[ET Awful]

15. Did you know Germany conscripted soldiers to fight? Did you know that

if they didn't fight, they could be summarily executed?

Not all German soldiers were Nazis, and not all fought willingly.

[Forkboy]

29. You are easily one of the most simplistic people I've ever seen.

[Moochy]

31. Good lord

the force is strong in this one.

s/force/stupid/g

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JCMach1]

8. Offensive? I think that would completely depend on how you would celebrate it...

For example an anti-war group in Gainesville, FL puts up a small plastic tombstone for every soldier killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100530/ARTICLES/5301012#

[Obamanaut]

10. If you don't want to single out Americans in your observance of Memorial Day, then

don't.

If you don't want to observe Memorial Day, then don't do that either.

It started with grave decorations at Arlington Cementery, decorations of graves of the dead of both sides of the Civil War. It should be meant as a time for remembrance and reconciliation.

ETA You don't have to observe Christmas either, if you don't want to.

[Catherina]

12. No, you are not alone.

Rec'd but still 0

[aikoaiko]

13. I'm sure you're not alone, but I don't feel the same way.

I have no problem with us memorializing our military folks and not from other countries. I have no problem with other countries memorializing their military dead and not ours.

[ET Awful]

14. On Memorial day, on another forum I frequent, I saw someone comment that they had been to

a cemetery on Memorial day to visit the grave of a relative and noticed that a lot of graves had US or Confederate flags on them and asked that the forum recognize those who gave their lives for freedom . . . .

I kind of thought that a lot of those Confederate veterans gave their lives for slavery, but what do I know? I mean, to be fair, most likely not all of them were in agreement with their Government and just fought because their neighbors told them they should, but still.

[pipoman]

16. Go ahead and honor anyone you wish..

after all it is a free country...thanks in no small part to US men and women who have given the ultimate sacrifice. Of coarse there are many who piss and moan and weep for the enemies of the US yet take full advantage of the spoils of war while treading through the blood of those who purchased the right to do just that.

[era veteran]

17. Not with you here

The holiday is for decorating the graves of Americans that served the country. You may not agree with our countries policies but these, mostly young people, died for you whether you like it or not.

[lynne]

18. Don't acknowledge Memorial Day if you find it offensive -

Same goes for Christmas and Easter since they only apply to Christians. Veterans Day acknowledges only one group, too. And Columbus Day ignores all the other explorers!

You could always begin "Victims of America" day. I'm sure Hallmark would be willing to design a set of cards just for the occasion.

:crazy:

[Tailormyst]

19. Umm, I think that's really reaching

Your feelings are your feelings and I respect that, but I have to say that I find it a bit over the top.

[stray cat]

20. Are you the only one who thinks its forbidden to think of others on memorial day?

[stray cat]

21. You certainly should not take the day off or do anything besides work on Memorial day

otherwise your protest is shallow.

[el_bryanto]

22. well it's an American Holiday - but one in which you and your community are allowed

to celebrate as you wish. If you wish to celebrate the fallen of all lands that's fine. But I'm not sure you can mandate that others celebrate that.

Bryant

[Odin2005]

23. I've never thought of Memorial Day as applying only to fallen American soldiers

To me it meant EVERY fallen combatant on ALL sides. Because War sucks, it's HELL, no matter what side one is on.

[LibertyLover]

24. No, not really

Most of Europe celebrates November 11th, Veterans' Day, as we do Memorial Day. The British have a major ceremony at the Cenotaph in London for example, to honor their fallen war dead. One my professors in college explained it this way - World War I was incredibly traumatic for Europe, so using the date of the Armistice as a remembrance day made sense. It was not as traumatic for America, so Veterans' Day gets less play here. Also, like the European May 1st holiday for labor versus the US' Labor Day, Veterans' Day somehow became tainted with too much "European" symbolism, whereas Memorial Day is strictly American. While I wish we were not fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, I have no problem with a holiday that honors my family and friends who served in the military.

[county worker]

34. When I was growing up Veterans day was called Armistice day.

I remember my mom explaining WWI to me.

[LibertyLover]

43. Same here

I remember it being called Armistice Day as well. My mom was a history teacher and she explained the various wars to me when I was pretty young. I grew up knowing the difference in strategy and tactics for example. Of course she did have a few blind spots - Cromwell was a non-person in our house. Montgomery was just about as bad and was Hap Arnold. Chennault was cool, Patton was a troubled genius and Doolittle just about walked on water.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. National holidays are unavoidably nationalist. n/t

[kctim]

26. Doubt that you are alone here

but considering the enemy to be 'victims' is definetely a lonely stance in the real world.

[Forkboy]

27. It's a trite holiday. If we really honored our vets 1 in 4 wouldn't be homeless.

[Echo In Light]

28. We need to make sure more young people realize their role BEFORE making the mistake of enlisting

[HillGal]

30. Call me suspicious but I'm starting to wonder if threads like this are done just to make

us look bad.

[Moochy]

32. "Making Us Look Bad" is the secret agenda of all with whom you disagree!

:grouphug:

[HillGal]

With the mid-terms coming up I just think people need to be aware how we're perceived

you don't want to alienate potential voters and threads like that can do it.

[Moochy]

36. Then say what you think is bad about it

I just think that DU should let the owners worry about "how threads look" and the members should comment freely.

[blondeatlast]

58. It'as a good thing this "concern" has never come up before in the almost 10 years and, what,

6? elections we've experienced?

Thank God you've arrived to save us from ourselves!

[HillGal]

35. With the mid-terms coming up I just think people need to be aware how we're perceived

you don't want to alienate potential voters and threads like that can do it.

[Echo In Light]

38. No, the *real* problem re perception is that the Dem party isn't nearly anti-war enough

If voters are also Hawks, fuck them and their votes

[HillGal]

44. So you don't care if we lose the mid-terms? NT

NT

[Echo In Light]

47. So you don't care about substance/ethics over 'feel-good' appearances?

[HillGal]

48. What progressive agenda will ever get through if the mid-terms are lost? You have to think ahead

and realize that the mindset of this board isn't indicative of the majority of Americans. I said it before, the extremes on either side drive the primary but not the general election, it's not right but the moderates choose who wins and some subjects won't sit well with them.

[Echo In Light]

49. That premise is only used to get people acclimated to staving off change indefinitely

Our "elections" and entire corporate/state nexus is one big rigged system, so the notion of Changing It From The Inside has as much validity as the Tooth Fairy. And from where I stand, "moderates" are usually the ones promoting this dead-end strategy (re national elections, for what they're worth in america, I almost always vote Green or indie, while supporting some local progress dems)

[HillGal]

51. OK, so vote third party and feel good about it. NT

NT

[Morning Dew]

41. Where's Ari Fleischer when you need him?

People should watch what they say, after all.























do I need the sarcasm thingy?

[MrScorpio]

40. Right wingers are pissed off at us anyway

No amount of weaseling to make conservatives is going to change their minds about us.

So we might as be honest with ourselves and say what we feel.

"The American people are tired of liars and people who pretend to be something they're not."

Hillary Clinton>

[Skittles]

57. define "US, Ballygrl

:rofl:

[Hempathy]

33. It's an American holiday, not a worldwide day of rememberance...

So why would it be odd that it's mostly about people paying tribute to their fallen countrymen? :shrug:

[Romulox]

37. I cleaned my house on Monday (rainy). I retroactively dedicate that house cleaning to the victims

of American aggression.

Better now? :patriot:

[howard112211]

39. ....

:spray: :hug:

Yes. And I apologize for making a provocative OP, but I believe there are holy cows in our country that need to be tipped for the sake of a better future.

[MrScorpio]

42. You didn't say anything wrong

We shouldn't be afraid to question ANY sacred cows in the "Home of the brave and the land of the free".

[Romulox]

46. Yes and no. It's not Memorial Day that's offensive. It's multiple wars of aggression

on foreign soil that's offensive.

That's my take.

[chrisa]

45. Oh god. Your last paragraph makes heads spin. :-)

Some would say that using the hyperbole of comparing the US military to a group that systematically helped in the extermination of 20 million (?) + people diminishes any point. :)

[Zix]

50. Well, you're not alone but I don't agree with you.

Nations exist for a reason and honour their own dead before others for a reason.

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. Don't honor ANYTHING you find offensive. But don't denigrate what others wish to honor. n/t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rasputin1952]

55. Let me give you some historical aspect of why we have this day...

It began after the Civil War to remember Federal soldiers and sailors who lost their lives preserving the nation. 600,000 lost their lives in that conflict, and it is fitting they be remembered for their sacrifice. Eventually, all soldiers and sailors from both sides would be remembered, as the wounds would recover after the conflict and the realization that both sides were Americans that fought for their country.

After WWI, the day became Memorial Day to remember all those cut down in the wars the US had been involved in and that tradition continues to today. It is not our day, it is their day, they followed the orders of the of the time and they lost their lives, we owe them a huge debt. As a veteran, I see one day out of the year to honor these men and women not as something that is somehow offensive, but something that reminds us of the true cost of war, and perhaps, we can think of new ways to have peace break out because we see the cost.

I can't speak for other nations, but I have never heard of Japan looking at the remembrance of Hiroshima and then having to toss in Pearl Harbor and the victims they created, which eventually brought about the act of the dropping of the bomb. Are we to think of the Germans who lost their lives defending beaches in France after they invaded the country? Should we honor the Tories of the Revolution?

War is horrific, there is not that much that is glorious about it, it is death, carnage, people suffer incredibly and I am against it. But the reality is, it does exist and while I consider the two wars we are in now wrong, I cannot "blame" those who have fallen in them. bush and his minions from hell brought this upon us, and I am hoping PO can get us out of them, but I cannot disparage those who sacrifice so much, often to the point where they become the focus of Memorial Day...the dead.

Choose another day to disparage those who have laid down their lives for this nation. The men and women that gave everything deserve better.

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. Very well put.

I always knew you were smart!

[dflprincess]

59. Very well put but, sadly, I think there are those

who have twisted Memorial Day into the U.S. version of May Day in Red Square.

Rather that reflecting on the cost of war those who died are used to rationalize the sacrifice of even more military personel and civilians to the U.S. policy of never ending war.