Watch the BP Cam! Thread #9

[gateley]

Link to Thread #8: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8465950&mesg_id=8465950

Thanks to NYC_SKP, jaxx, Subdivisions and many others for keeping this series running!

WKRG Video Stream: http://www.livestream.com/wkrg_oil_spill

ABC Video Stream: http://abcnews.go.com/video/video?id=6046305

Akamia Link: http://mfile.akamai.com/97892/live/reflector:46245.asx?...

Explanatory video: http://bp.concerts.com/gom/kentwellstechupdatelong053110.htm

Thanks to NYC_SKP for making these links easy to cut and paste. I don't have the cool pics he does, but I'm sure he'll be adding them soon!

WELCOME TO The DU Under Sea BP ROV CLUB! :party:

EDIT #2 :eyes: I should just leave the links to NYC_SKP who was kind enough to inform me a couple of mine were on the fritz. Operator error. It never occurred to me to actually CHECK them! Hope they're working now, if not, kindly let me know.

Thanks, NYC_SKP! :hi:

[RandomThoughts]

1. Either the reports, or the intent to stop the damage to society

is not the priority.

At the original estimate of 5000 barrels a day, that would be a leak that would fill a barrel in 15 seconds.

That pressure is not that much, and it could be stopped by dropping gravel and fill on it.

That is logical and shows their primary intent is not to stop the leak, but more likely to be a distraction, or even something worse.

[gateley]

3. The various options have been discussed at length at The Oil Drum, which is

frequented by engineers and I would venture to guess if your suggestion were viable, it would be being discussed repeatedly. It isn't.

And, I disagree about their intent to not stop the leak. It's in their best interest to do so because for each gallon/barrel spilled, that adds to the fine they will pay. And, one thing we ALL agree on, money is their primary concern, so that's incentive for them to stop it asap.

[defendandprotect]

8. BP has been playing "hide the oil" since this began . . . that's what the

dispersant was about -- a quite toxic dispersant, btw!

[gateley]

16. Oh, I agree with that -- totally, but I disagree with the statement that they're

not trying to stop it. They gain nothing by letting it continue. I think the Powers That Be are hip to their 'hide the oil' scamming. And their attempt to do that proves that money IS their primary incentive.

[defendandprotect]

102. There is very little trust for BP, anywhere . . . in fact, Olberman last night

was questioning the validity of the LIVE FEED of the oil spill . . .

didn't hear all of his comments on that, unfortunately.

[Webster Green]

6. The pressure is not that much? The pressure is 13,000 psi!

Gravel and fill would do nothing to stop the leak. It would get thrown around quite a bit though.

[RandomThoughts]

15. What about a few million cubic meters of fill?

That would probably stop the leak.

assuming that is the pressure, 13000 psi. At that pressure, 7 tons of weight would stop it per inch.

So if the leak had a surface area of 100 inches that would only be 700 tons. Then the added to create the proper stacking.


and one ore carrier had 26,000 tons on it, according to this song.

Gordon Lightfoot - Wreck of the Edmonds Fitxgerald
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvKGz4s3kuU


So I still think it is a distraction or worse, because of how people are demanding financial reform and other measures.


(On a side note, roger that on the meal break, and depends on what you think winning is.)

[gateley]

18. Nope, can't agree with you. I'm of the belief that if they could have stopped it

that way, they would have. It's not just BP that's working on it, but experts from other oil companies, and independent experts from around the world.

Great song, by the way. :)

[Webster Green]

22. Wow!

There's so much wrong there that I don't know even where to start, so I won't.

Your username however, is right on the money. :thumbsup:

[Statistical]

28. You are confusing weight with density/pressure.

13,000 pounds per square inch means exactly that. 13,000 pounds for every square inch.

If you dropped a weight that was 13,000 pounds onto the leak and it was 2" by 2" guess what that isn't 13,000 psi. that is 13,000 pounds / 4 square inches = 3,250 psi. The pressure from the well would simply flip that weight aside like it was a tin can.

13,000 psi means exactly that. 13,000 pounds of force on every single inch.

An ore container may weight 26,000 tons but that is spread out over a massive surface area. If it wasn't the ship wouldn't float.

A few million cubic meters of fill wouldn't do anything, help a few billion cubic meters of fill wouldn't do anything. To stop the well you must exert a force equal to the well pressure (at least 13,000 psi may be 3x to 4x that).

[RandomThoughts]

32. I agree that there would be spread.

So 7 tons on each square inch, and what is needed to prop up that weight would do it.

And one group built an island for an airport at a quarter million cubic meters of fill per week, and 500 blocks for support by dropping fill, so it might take more then one ship but seems rational.

My math does not sound incorrect. Even if the leak was 20 inches by 20 inches, that would still only be 400 times 7 tons on top of leak, and supporting buttress.

[NYC_SKP]

34. Yep. Do the math: The riser opening has an area of 314 sq in.

I get 4,082,000 pounds that would need to be applied to resist a fluid at that pressure over that size opening (20" diameter).

However, isn't this 13,000 psi pressure resisted by water pressure of about 2,400 psi at that depth?

Yielding a net 10,600 psi, more or less, still considerable?

:shrug:

[Statistical]

42. Yup however containing pressure in motion is far harder than a static pressure.

If the well wasn't leaking designing some structure with enough density would be possible. You could build it and then someone could turn the well on and there would be enough density (and thus pressure by gravity) to counteract the well pressure.

However the well is already spewing. So first time someone tries to assemble a "cap" weighing less than 3 million tons the flow will simply push it the first block/piece out of the way. It doesn't matter if you try to dump a shipload full of fill material (will simply be blown apart like sand into a fan) or giant 5000 pound blocks at a time (will get knocked over by the flow). It would be like trying to build a house in a hurricane or building a levy when a town is already under water. A levy can stand up to flood water (static) but you can't build a levy with flood racing past where you want to build the levy (pressure under flow).

Nope the only way to stop flow is in one giant shot. Something that can generate millions of pounds of pressure (once again via the effect of gravity plus pumps). That is a relief well.


At the instant the relief well penetrates the main well it has 6 miles (5 miles of well + mile of riser to surface) of mud behind the drill bit. Oil will attempt to flow up the relief well but won't have a fraction of the pressure needed to overcome the downward pressure created by 6 miles of mud. Engineers can then use pumps on the rigs to slowly force the mud column into the main well. At which point gravity starts to work against the well. The oil gets pushed slowly down the well and flow stops.

3 largest blowouts in history all solved the same way. A single massive weight to stop the flow. The only know method to assemble a multi-million pound weight is mud inside a relief well.

[Feron]

37. Top kill and the junk shot were fill..

But the trick is that you have to force the stuff down at a high enough pressure to curb (and eventually stop) the oil/gas mix from rising ,but at a low enough pressure so that you don't totally destroy the BOP at the same time.

And if you want a distraction...just get Tiger Woods to wag his member around. It doesn't take much for the media to find a new shiny object. You don't need a catastrophe.

Not to mention that BP would much rather that oil be sitting in a tanker or barrel than floating around in the Gulf. The oil spewing into the Gulf is money BP is losing.

[RandomThoughts]

81. To add some context.

It seems there is some vagueness in some peoples thoughts. And even some judgement.

So...

Love Shack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leohcvmf8kM

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Is that psig or psia?

The only pressure that matters is PSIG (the gauge pressure); the relative pressure differential between the oil in the pipe and the surrounding water.

[Statistical]

33. Flow rate is not same thing as pressure.

One can have very low flow rate and extremely high pressure (think pressure washer).
On the other hand you can have very high flow rate and extremely low pressure (think Mississippi river).

At the extreme put liquid under enough pressure and it can cut steel.


Waterjet cutter. Uses a tiny amount of water but puts that water under 40,000 psi of pressure.

If you put you hand under that stream you won't have a hand to pull back.

[Webster Green]

45. That's a really neat tool.

The thing cut that impeller out of a slab of metal? Amazing!

[Statistical]

53. Yeah I saw one in action, pretty cool stuff.

Awfully loud though. Kinda amazing to watch because you literally just see the metal disappearing as it comes out of the waterjet. The one I saw was a pure waterjet cutter. Some models use grit mixed into water to increase cutting speed and handle harder materials.

Supposedly they are "green" technology because they don't waste much material (leave large sections which can be recycled) also it requires no physical cutters (blades, drills, grinders, etc) that need to be replaced. Makes very small cuts similar to laser cutter buts uses a fraction of the power.

[nenagh]

58. The problem with this fix is that the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico..

is the consistency of pudding, probably thick pudding..

And is that pudding consistency down a for a few thousand feet

If you took a straw and blew into the muck you'd get bubbles blowing back at you

I think that gravel would simply sink out of sight, slowly maybe, but there are no rocks down in the Gulf of Mexico to hold up the gravel sufficiently to stop the oil/gas flow.

(This is from reading TheOilDrum.. there is some great info there esp in the tech talk stuff.)

My understanding of why is it pudding consistency? The Mississippi delivers silt to the Gulf of Mexico is my simplistic understanding :)

[Webster Green]

70. TOD is the go-to source for sure.

A lot of the regulars really know their stuff. "Rockman" for example.

[nenagh]

79. That's Rockman's answer for sure... from TheOilDrum..

And he keeps reiterating the fact that BP should have been monitoring the mud returns when they were removing the mud from the riser..

I am a true addict now of the whole procedure to stop this oil gush from the Gulf.

Love the DU ROV Club, especially because it is hard to understand just what is happening..

Many thanks..

[HughMoran]

2. 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer

The cutting is slowwwww...

[gateley]

4. I'm just "back" after a couple of hours being away. Don't tell me nothing

happened during that time?!?!?!

[NYC_SKP]

5. I don't know about everybody else, but I'm relieved that they got this far today.

The shear took longer to finish it's job than I expected, but I'm happy to see the final cut already this far along!

:bounce:

[gateley]

9. I think they're really zipping along! Considering what they're doing, I'm

waaaaaay impressed! :wow:

Are they going 24/7?

[NYC_SKP]

10. No reason to stop unless it's to replace the diamond wire or some mishap...

Right now I think they might have struck the hardened steel drill pipe inside the riser.

This is gonna slow things down, then past that it'll speed up again, then go slow for the last bit as they saw across a greater cross section.

Then ba-dum! all the way through.

I'll probably be in bed, I'm thinking it'll be over by daylight on the West Coast.

:thumbsup:

[NYC_SKP]

7. Here's the Graphic of What is Going On Right Now.... (without all that oil)

This is what we'll see right AFTER the cut is complete.

Presently, the wire is cutting from the backside of the pipe, and cutting through the riser away from the diamond wire saw device (big yellow thing).

[gateley]

That is so cool to compare the two!

[gateley]

11. DELETE Dupe. Boy, I just need to sit on my hands tonight, stay away from the keyboard.

[NYC_SKP]

12. Quick, think of something clever to write....

before anyone sees it...

:P

[gateley]

13. Bwah! Great idea! But I'm used to embarrassing myself, so it's okay. :-) nt

[cwydro]

83. What they are doing will release MORE oil

into the Gulf.

Does NO ONE get this?

Why does everyone think THIS trick will work when none of the others did?

And if this one is so great, why didn't they try it FIRST?

[NYC_SKP]

14. They appear to be trying to get a look at the progress scale drawn on one of the rails.

In yellow paint pen, hand-drawn. It was easily seen before all the oil gushing from the cut.

I wanna see it, too!

[gateley]

19. Report back if you do - I'm afraid I'd see it and not realize it. nt

[flamingdem]

17. So @ 1 inch per hour approx. how many more?

from theoildrum.com

Definitely moving from right to left, so as it falls to the left, the string won't get caught. I'd say at this rate at least three hours or more to complete the cut.


RISER PIPE inner circumference = 21"
RISER PIPE inner diameter = ~7"

+1" for far side of pipe
+1" for near side of pipe

RISER PIPE diameter = ~9"

We are no more than 2" in at this time, or less.

---

edit: So our rate is about 1-inch PER hour, yes? And that might be BEST SPEED.

[gateley]

20. Holy cow! Can the blade last that long? nt

[flamingdem]

21. Diamonds are a BOP's best friend?

:shrug:

[NYC_SKP]

23. I disagree with that opinion.

~~~

For one thing, the correct team is "diameter", not "circumference", which would be the distance a tape would measure wrapped around the pipe.

~~~

We got through the one inch wall hours ago, that's when we saw oil coming out.

I was able to watch the one inch scale on the rail and it made 1/2 inch progress in about 15 minutes.

I think they're now at the drill pipe, 9 inch O.D., I think, heavy wall, harder steel, so this part will take some time.

Correct dimensions, I think:

RISER PIPE inner diameter = 20"
RISER PIPE inner diameter = 22"

DRILL PIPE outer diameter = 9"
DRILL PIPE inner diameter ~ 6-7"

Once through the drill pipe that's inside the larger riser, it'll be quick going again until the last couple inches where it'll be cutting through a large cross section again, as it was in the beginning.

I think they're more than 30% though this whole thing.

:hi:

[gateley]

24. Whoa -- what's that hole? It looks like a blast off of the space shuttle! nt

[flamingdem]

29. That sounds accurate. OK I can sleep

and probably not miss anything save a giant squid attack.

[Subdivisions]

25. I've got one eye on the sawing and one on my work =) n/t

[gateley]

26. This is much more exciting, I'm sure! I wish those people who are going "what's

taking them so long?" would watch this!

[NYC_SKP]

27. Diamond Wire Saw is Kicking Riser ASS!!!

:popcorn:

[gateley]

30. Woo Hoo!

:woohoo::woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo

[Subdivisions]

31. Do you see that weld seam? That should be right about the half-way mark. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

35. I did see that and wondered the same thing.

It would be half way if the seam is symmetrical to the flange and the saw is not mounted at some off angle.

Half way through would be terrific!

[HughMoran]

36. That's what I was figuring

[yowzayowzayowza]

50. Thru the riser, but do we know if the drill pipe has been hit yet? n/t

[inna]

38. why so many threads? why not keep them consolidated? just curious, k&r anyway.

[gateley]

39. Because we keep on "talking" and asking questions, and some people want

to refer to the previous threads to partake of all the wisdom. :) And the BP guys are working full tilt, so there's lots to see and comment on. It is getting a little unwieldy, though.

[gristy]

72. I suggest letting them run a bit longer. 200 replies or so

Things just get too broken up when you start them so often.

[NYC_SKP]

41. After about 60 or so replies, they take longer to load and become dated as things change.

Thanks for the K and R, inna.

Anyone following this will later turn to CNN and say, "damn, they don't really know what's going on down there!"

I'm pulling for success, of course, and am as excited for a conclusion as I am outraged that it happened to begin with.

:thumbsup:

[inna]

56. "After about 60 or so replies, they take longer to load",,,,

HAHAHA, that is just TOO funny!! :D

So sez the biggest fan of... um, the ***Thread**... :scared:

you know the one I'm referring to... the one in the lounge... that will never, EVER load and should never, ever, EVER, under no circumstances be linked to...

nm

:yoiks:

[gateley]

62. I'm going to follow you back there, Inna - you've got me curious!

:yoiks:

[Cleita]

46. Because those of us on dial up speed find it really hard to

load up heavy threads.

[Feron]

40. Article about ROVs from NPR

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127042269

Interesting stuff.

[NYC_SKP]

48. Thanks for that, Feron.

Very interesting, indeed!

:thumbsup:

[gateley]

55. That IS interesting - thank you! Boy, I never thought I'd see the day when I'd

get excited about stuff like this!

[Clio the Leo]

43. And so ALL of this massive amount of oil we're seeing now was expected?

I understand that when the thing was cut, the oil flow would increase ... is this on par with how much we were expecting?


..... cause it's A LOT!!! lol

[NYC_SKP]

47. Yeah, it's an increased flow for a presumably short duration, after which there will be none.

That's why we're all so excited.

In the DU Under Sea BP ROV CLUB!

[Clio the Leo]

57. There'll be none after it's capped you mean? NT

[NYC_SKP]

64. Far less, if any, than we've had since this started.

There may be some minor leakage at the LMRP connection, and there's been a rumor of a plume coming from the seabed (probably false), but for all intents and purposes, this will end the leak if successful.

:hi:

[Subdivisions]

52. Unfortunately, no. this is not on par with what we're expecting. We're

actually expecting an increase of about 20%. I'd say we're not near that yet.

[Webster Green]

54. Yes. The riser is still bent over and restricting some of the flow.

Any new opening is going to start venting the oil and gas instantly.

When they finally cut through this riser, we'll see the full-on well flow for the first time.

[Cleita]

44. Thanks guys for keeping up the reporting.

I'm sorry I can't help out with some inputting, but I'm checking back for your reports.

[gateley]

59. I wonder if there are any TV stations covering it? nt

[Subdivisions]

51. Ok, something I see on the ROV cam keeps distracting me from my work.

It's beginning to concern me that the cut hasn't seemed to have advanced much in the past 30 minutes. This could mean the wire blade has gotten dull. If that's the case, they have to undock from the BOP and return to the surface to change the blade.

Whoops, as I was typing I noticed the blade wheel isn't turning. How long has it not been turning? Anyways, I hope they're not stuck there.

[NYC_SKP]

60. One potential problem: The inner drill pipe is not rigidly fixed within the riser.

If it moves one way or another after the wire saw is part way into it, I can imagine a binding phenomenon occurring.

Damn.

[Subdivisions]

65. I'd bet you're concern about that is unfounded. As tight as that kink is,

I don't think any inner pipe would be flopping around.

[gateley]

68. What was that big WHOOSH that just occurred?

[NYC_SKP]

69. That seems most likely, I hope you're right.

The kink should have it at one end, and the shear rams in the BOP may or may not have it at the other end.

But something has caused the saw to stop, or is it spinning again?

[Subdivisions]

71. No, it stopped and has retreated. I'd be willing to bet we need a new blade. n/t

[Subdivisions]

61. OOOHHHHHH!

It just pulled out.

[Morning Dew]

63. Thanks for keeping these threads going

Been watching a lot of sawing tonight... gonna go saw some logs myself.

Maybe they'll get through it by the time I wake up.

Proud to be part of the DU Under Sea BP ROV CLUB!

[gateley]

66. Sleep well!

[Subdivisions]

67. Have a good sleep, Morning Dew. n/t

:hi:

[gateley]

73. Wake up, Club chums! I've refreshed half a dozen times to see your explanations

of what's going on, but zip, nada. (And you know who I'm glaring at)

[gristy]

74. My only guess is they've pulled the saw off and it's on its way up for a blade change

The ROV is standing by.

[gateley]

75. Thanks! So they're just waiting. The stuff looks so turbulent I was concerned

something happened. Might be good to head to bed now - if I wait for more "real" action, I'll get hooked again and be up all night! Carry on! :hi:

[Subdivisions]

77. G'night gateley. Think I'll do the same. See y'all in the mornin'! =) n/t

[nenagh]

76. Thanks gateley and everyone ..DU Undersea BP ROV CLUB ..Love it..

I've followed the BP spill/blowout so long on TheOilDrum...

It's wonderful to see this so well done at DU..

Congrats :) And the ROV operators are really wizards..

[Subdivisions]

78. Yes, the ROV operators are top notch. If this works, they should get a parade. n/t

[nenagh]

80. Absolutely agree ..

And some recognition of the groups of experts who work so hard..

One of Rockman's comments from TheOilDrum also stays in my memory.. Some of those poor men who died, probably realized they were fighting a life threatening situation, but stayed to fight.. Some very brave men lost their lives.. some ticker tape for them also..

[Lochloosa]

82. Morning Bump

[csziggy]

84. Hey, Good morning!

Couldn't sleep, worrying about the blade being bound up.

If you are watching the feed, when they change to the view of the round, yellow framed thing - does that look like a circular bubble level to you? We had a little cheap plastic one that was great for leveling furniture that this thing reminds me of. Last time they showed it, I thought I saw a bubble in it move, but it is so dirty, I am not sure.

What do you think? Cause, if that is a bubble level and if it is moving, the BOP is shifting and there could be an even more catastrophic situation developing.

[gateley]

95. Good morning - yikes! Disappointing situation. Hoping they've got

something up their sleeve.

You were right about that level thing - here's what they say on TOD:

It's called a "bullseye" and it gives a visual indication of how vertical the BOP stack is.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6547

[csziggy]

103. I'm the one who asked on TOD

But I had not gotten a really informative response by the time I had to fold up and get some sleep. I stayed up until 3 AM, went to bed, could not sleep, got up, checked here and TOD, ate breakfast and went back to bed. Now I'm trying to catch up.

I'll see you on the newer threads - TOD seems to not be loading at the moment, probably exceeded their bandwidth.

[lamp_shade]

85. Present

[lamp_shade]

86. Current Oil Drum thread #6547

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6547

[lamp_shade]

87. Poster at OilDrum says "It appears that the wire saw wheel is now frozen over from

gas jet. The cutting wire now appears to be collecting ice as well."

[flying rabbit]

89. Ruh Roh,

Raggy.

[gateley]

92. Hi! I'm wondering if there's anything they could do?

[entanglement]

88. Thank you, Gately and NYC_SKP. These threads have been very informative.

:hi:

Add: I also realize I've been spending far too much time staring at the spill-cam livefeed, but I can't stay away.

[gateley]

91. I think we understand completely!

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

90. It's stuck. It's stopped. It's iced-up or jammed...

...ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

:mad:

[gateley]

93. Hi! Just dropping by on the way to the bathroom, had to check in and see if

everything was okay. Do you suppose they planned for this contingency? Can they bring it up and thaw it out or something?

:hi:

[entanglement]

96. It's a diamond wire cutter, it should be able to saw through anything shouldn't it?

??

[gateley]

99. If I'm understanding the comments correctly, the mechanism may have frozen

so it's essentially stuck. :(

I'm going back to bed. This is sooooo disappointing. Here's a post to TOD which is always helpful (when you can understand what they're saying)

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6547

[lamp_shade]

94. The build-up (ice?) on the chain is getting worse by the minute. I've been watching

for over 3 hours and it started out as just a tiny spot.

[gateley]

97. I'm switching feeds to see if I can see what you're referring to.

This is heartbreaking. :(

I'm going to head back to bed and send them my best.

Make sure you take a break -- or a nap. We can't DO anything from out here. :hug:

[Junkdrawer]

98. Speculation is that the saw is jammed on the inner drill pipe. n/t

[gateley]

100. I wonder if that's better than being frozen?

[gateley]

101. Here guys - THREAD #10. I think I fixed all the links...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8468094&mesg_id=8468094