Can you guys explain your flag thing to this Brit?

[Zix]

I've always been slightly confused by it.

I've seen many threads on this site about the American flag, seen it prettily wafting away, nicely backlit in various movies, stuff like that. You all seem to really, really like it.

Now... the Union Jack...:




(ugly looking thing. I've never liked it...)

... is a bit of a figure of fun in the UK. You're much more likely to see it on baseball boots or T-shirts or coloured in wrong in the UK. Nobody "respects" it. It doesn't really symbolise, to me, a set of ideas, but stands as a psychic place holder for "those guys over there, you know, the black pudding eating bumbling jokey guys that sing "always look on the bright side of life" at the drop of a hat."

Its sort of silly. Maybe that's because British people are!

What we have instead is the royal family. But... we don't really take THEM very seriously, either. We do think setting fire to them is probably bad, I guess.

I genuinely don't understand what you're thinking when you think about your flag.

Can you tell me?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just don't think we really have an equivalent over here.

[Sinistrous]

1. A symbol of our higher ideals.

[Yeahyeah]

26. A replacement for our higher ideals.

[Generic Other]

47. You said a mouthful right there!

That's what I see when I see the flag worshippers fawning and simpering.

[Uncle Joe]

104. I agree, it's an emotional replacement for reason, thus making it easier for the

powers that be; to divide, manipulate and use the American People.

I believe this is the reason they don't have children Pledge Allegiance to the Constitution.

[CTyankee]

170. I think the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag was written after the Civil War.

It seems to me that it was a reaffirmation of "one nation, indivisible" to underscore the Union's victory over the Confederacy and to emphasize that we are ONE NATION. I think that was its purpose and who knows, maybe it will have to be that again, if we have another secesionist party come into being...

[Uncle Joe]

172. Yes in 1892 during the Gilded Age originally conceived as a marketing ploy to move flags and

magazines.

"The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954. The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered. Congressional sessions open with the swearing of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, meetings held by the Royal Rangers, Boy Scouts of America, the Fraternal Order of Eagles, the Freemasons and their concordant bodies, other organizations, and some sporting events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, in a campaign to encourage patriotism and the display of the American flag in public schools."

My question still stands if you want to reaffirm "one nation indivisible," why not have the pledge to The Constitution of the United States of America promoting "We the People and perfect union?"

No army was waving the Constitution during bloody war against it's brother Army, of course the "Under God" divider phrase added during the McCarthy Era would have been more difficult to incorporate had it been, a pledge to the Constitution and not a symbolic macro gang color.

[Greyhound]

232. Yes, an astonishingly large number of what Americans think of as "Patriotic

All-American Traditions and Values" were nothing more than advertisements and cheap works of fiction in the 19th century.

From the rags-to-riches mythology to the Wild West, substituting consumerism as "The American Dream", and far more were part of a message crafted by the the robber barons and their sycophants. Fear and bigotry were The most common tools, followed closely by the appeal to greed. It's an old game that still works today.

[hippywife]

207. Bingo!

Faith in a symbol rather than what is true and equitable. :thumbsup:

[BlueMTexpat]

231. Too true, unfortunately. nt

[Bert]

130. Symbol is right

I think George Carlin and Bertrand Russell said it the best about people who worship symbols. Personally I care more about ideals than any symbol, be it a flag or a cross.

[Zix]

146. Yeah, but WHAT are the higher ideals?

[mr blur]

174. Higher than whose? Ours?

Thanks.

[Ned Bro]

181. "it's gotten a lot of use."

Tommy Lee Jones, just before flying it upside down at the end of In the Valley of Elah.

[XemaSab]

260. E Pluribus Unum

Not only the idea of the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states coming together to form a cohesive whole, but people from all nations, races, and religions coming together to form a country based on a shared identity and heritage as Americans.

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. You're fairly close with "what we have instead is the royal family", I think

The flag, to many Americans, is the enduring symbol of their country. The royal family gives continuity - a set order of succession (look how they still haven't managed to change to 'eldest child' rather than 'eldest son, and only resort to daughters if there are no sons' - the conservatism and insistence on tradition at the heart of royalty is still huge, and if that involves sexism, they're fine with that), and the new members get introduced gradually.

But for the USA, the president changes at least once every eight years, and can switch between 2 parties. So the flag is what is always there, whatever happens in elections.

[Captain Hilts]

61. I like the continuity that the royal family represents. A non-political figure with the long view.

Think about it. Liz is the LAST head of state that is a WWII veteran.

She's been sleeping with a red phone and getting intelligence briefings for over 50 years.

And it's been revealed that Liz roots for West Ham.

QEII: Yeah, what of it?

[Zix]

228. Liz herself has managed to be a very appropriate symbol for Britain, I think...

I like her. I don't really like the idea of a monarchy but I *do* like *her*...

[Arkana]

249. I suppose in some sense it was the first symbol of our national identity

during the Revolution.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

267. Well, it's been several centuries since anyone tried to burn the royal family, I think...

N.T.

[dipsydoodle]

3. Was composed from a combination of crosses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag

[Zix]

4. Yeah, I know where MINE comes from...

I as asking you about yours... :D

[dipsydoodle]

8. I misread

and thought you were talking about the origin of MY flag. :rofl:

[Zix]

112. OOPS!

sorry... teach me to make assumptions... :D

[Pharaoh]

35. Much like the Nazis used the swastica

It is like a brainwashing symbol to obey the status quo:party:

Really it is just a piece of cloth. Why some folks get all bent out of shape about it I have no clueO8)

[Moochy]

41. Your answer is in your post

to expand on that..

Nationalism is a poison, it addles the mind.

[VPStoltz]

198. The so-called confederate flag (really a battle of one of the Virginia regiments)

also uses the St. Andrew cross. Many of the slave owners in the Virginia area were of Scottish descent and used that symbol for their battle flag.
The first real flag of the confederacy looked somewhat like out "stars and stripes." It was called the "stars and bars."

[Art_from_Ark]

5. Well, for starters, our National Anthem is all about a flag

that survived a night of bombardment in 1814

[Zix]

13. I'm sorry but that doesn't really explain anything to me.

Could you elaborate?

[Art_from_Ark]

34. Are you not familiar with the lyrics of America's National Anthem?

Here they are (first verse), written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key after the Battle of Ft. McHenry:

Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

[marions ghost]

36. Good point Art from Ark

we are all taught very young to sing this Star Spangled Banner song and worship the sacred flag. It's ingrained.

The connection with the anthem is key.

[Zix]

118. Ah, so it's perseverence in the face of adversity?

I see.

Interesting contrast with my flag. My flag means tea, crumpets and apologising to people when *they've* trodden on *your* toes!

[Art_from_Ark]

240. The flag has been a popular theme of songs

For example, during the Civil War, there were such songs as "The Battle Cry of Freedom"

Yes, we'll rally round the flag, boys
Rally once again,
Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom
We will rally from the hillside
We'll gather from the plains,
Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom!
Chorus:
The Union forever!
Hurrah boys hurrah!
Down with the traitor, up with the star,
While we rally round the flag, boys
Rally once again
Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom!

and
"Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys"

Rally round the flag, boys,
Give it to the breeze,
That's the banner we love,
On the land and seas;
Brave hearts are under ours,
Let the traitors brag,
Gallant lads, fire away!
And fight for the flag!

George M. Cohen wrote a flag song that became an American staple

You're a grand old flag,
You're a high flying flag
And forever in peace may you wave.
You're the emblem of
The land I love.
The home of the free and the brave.

Every heart beats true
'neath the Red, White and Blue,
Where there's never a boast or brag.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
Keep your eye on the grand old flag.



Then there's this song that was in my 2nd grade music book:
Raise the flag above us, raise it to the sky
See the sign of freedom beat
To welcome every eye

And speaking of second grade, that is, grade school
It was considered a special honor to raise the flag in the morning and/or lower it and fold it after school.

[VPStoltz]

200. Set to an impossibly stupid melody.

[Aristus]

220. Yeah, an old English drinking song. Pretty apt, I think...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anacreontic_Song

[kestrel91316]

199. At the hands of the Brits, no less, lol.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I don't understand it either...

I'm not American either, and I still get bemused at what looks like a Cult Of The Flag thing that some Americans get into. I really don't think the Royal family are really comparable coz nearly everyone takes the piss out of them, but with some Americans I get the feeling they'd love to hang, draw and quarter anyone who disrespects their flag.

[xchrom]

9. It really is a cult. It's about propagandizing

A narrative that never quite existed.

And here individuals do so much of the displaying.
Not corporate or government sponsored - but
the people.

It's not really a good thing because it's a symbol
of how much people don't know about their history
and what that history means.

[Moochy]

44. Yes a cult, except its a majoritarian cult

Hubris without shame at what the symbol is currently used for, and means. Not what we are taught, but what the flag actually represents, not in symbological terms but in tangible ways: ecological, commercial and political. The flag represents supporting ruthless, tin-pot dictators, crony capitalists and the unfettered pursuit of the most extreme forms of depraved resource extraction supporting our gluttonous energy, food and pop culture needs.

But watch this neat trick... for those wary of saluting the country, those without the care for the macro-political, the flag does not indicate these larger things, NAY it is honoring those who have died carrying out those Big Concepts, those willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

[flamingdem]

70. In fairness the British aren't looking too good either right now due to the BP disaster nt

[Zix]

116. BP hasn't been British for ages.

It's a transnational. Nothing in particular comes back to Britain from BP except for the tax they pay on installations that are actually in the UK...

[Captain Hilts]

121. 40% of stock is owned by British. nt

[Zix]

128. Hmmmmmmm.

that kinda means 60% of it ISN'T... :D

[Captain Hilts]

132. 39% by US. Then there's everyone else. But Brits have the plurality. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

203. It's a transnational company. Plus it's got nothing at all to do with the flag question n/t

[flamingdem]

157. Nice Try. The "empire" is behind this bugger nt

[Zix]

179. It's a conspiracy! nt

[xchrom]

171. when it comes to flag worship never has there been a time

when it was understood with real meaning by the majority of people.
american patriotism and skepticism of government and institutions is quite distinct say from europe.

its always been a cult here.

[proteus_lives]

98. It's not a cult thing for most of us.

It's an E pluribus unum thing.

[Violet_Crumble]

204. Cultists always deny they're doing cultish things!

There ya go. Sorry, but I do find the worshipping and flag humping that some Americans do to be really bizarre and OTT.

[HereSince1628]

7. It's explained pretty well at these links...can you explain Cricket?

On the flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States


On the pledge of alligiance to the flag and the republic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[TheMightyFavog]

117. Cricket is easy to explain...

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game.

[A HERETIC I AM]

134. I have this overwhelming urge to slap you.

But I won't because that is one of the funniest things I have read on DU in a long time.

:spray:

[dixiegrrrrl]

189. Ah so...clarity at last.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[struggle4progress]

236. !

seems simple enough

:D

[Manifestor_of_Light]

254. Is that anything like 23-Man Squamish???

Game invented in MAD magazine.

[Zix]

227. Cricket is about doing a sport that isn't a sport.

Its a competitive sport that doesn't have too much emphasis on the competition, so that nobody feels left out.

The idea is to go about it in a slow, comfortable, summery sort of way. The whole village would come out and watch an participate. Wives would make sandwiches and lemonade.

The game goes on for days so that the one week of summer isn't wasted, the whole village goes outdoors to celebrate the warmth and laziness and there's a small amount of running about but that's not the point, the point is to come together and enjoy the sun.

[Skip Intro]

10. I like our flag. I'm glad that we revere it. It is a symbol of our country.

Not that the Brit flag isn't a symbol. But I for one have become respectful of our flag. There was a time when I wasn't. Maybe Obama plays into that, not sure. But I do love my country, and I do respect its flag. Won't apologize for that.

[Rage for Order]

54. You're obviously a brainwashed neo-con

:sarcasm:

[Moochy]

56. It's a Big Tent

DU'ers who have no plans to unpack nationalist lessons drilled into their heads during formative years are welcome, nay encouraged to beat their chests as the battle hymn rages on.

[Captain Hilts]

62. Me too. I love the flag and the ideals it stands for. I'm also proud of the British and Canadian

flags as well. Hell, I've got a Welsh flag to fly on St. David's Day.

Why not be proud?

[proteus_lives]

100. Pride is seen as a sin by many on DU.

Especially national pride.

Usually by the ash-eating brigade.

[depakid]

102. That's because pride IS a sin- the deadliest one at that...

[proteus_lives]

105. Everything in moderation.

I'm not really religious so the I don't put much stock in things or concepts being naturally sinful.

Pride is like anything else, too much can hurt but everyone could use some.

[Captain Hilts]

119. BINGO. nt

[Cleobulus]

191. Doesn't the TYPE of pride matter?

For example, saying you take pride in your accomplishments is perfectly reasonable.

Saying, however, that you are proud of your country because you happened to have been born in it makes absolutely no sense.

Ancestral and Group pride seems to be a co-opting of other people's accomplishments to make yourself feel better, it has nothing to do with what you did, either directly or indirectly. It also leads to exceptionalism and all the ugliness that stems from that.

[proteus_lives]

194. I disagree.

I take pride in my country's accomplishments, history, landscape and culture.

I'm a part of that. In my own small way, I add to it.

Ancestral and group pride can be flawed and poisonous like any other thing but if viewed in a healthy way, it can guide, inspire and lead you.

It's about keeping your eyes open.

[Cleobulus]

212. Define this healthy way?

Because, from what I can see, what it inspires people to do is violence, and leads them to war. Rather poisonous if you ask me, and this is the NORMAL way its expressed.

Here, let's take this a different way, would you betray your country to protect a friend?

[proteus_lives]

218. Eyes open.

Seeing the good and the bad. Embracing and nurturing the good while trying to fix the bad.

"Because, from what I can see, what it inspires people to do is violence, and leads them to war. Rather poisonous if you ask me, and this is the NORMAL way its expressed."

I agree, that does happen. But it's not the only way and I don't even think it's the standard or normal expression. Look at science, athletics, exploration. National pride has often positively effected those pursuits and fields.

"would you betray your country to protect a friend?"

An oldie but a goodie. And like all what-ifs, it has endless x-factors to add.

I'm sure there are situations where I would and wouldn't. Can you admit the same?

[Cleobulus]

242. Hmm, maybe, then again, from my own perspective...

I would just have to make a decision on whether to help/protect my friend or not, honestly, whether helping them or not will involve betraying the country simply wouldn't enter my thoughts, and I surely wouldn't agonize over it.

As far as your three examples, with science, I'm not sure how much of an affect patriotism has on scientific pursuits, indeed, I'm puzzled by the implication here. To give famous examples, even things such as the Manhattan Project were, more or less, international pursuits, we had scientists from all over the world collaborate on that. It was lead by Americans, however the actual advancement of the project could be more attributed to anti-Fascism or anti-Nazism than to patriotism.

I'm not saying that all scientists aren't patriots, I just find it rather odd to claim they pursue their studies because of patriotism. Does Stephen Hawking study cosmology "for England" as it were? I doubt it, it sounds silly.

On Athletics, well, this is yet another aspect of culture I do not understand, probably for the same reason I don't understand patriotism. Indeed, the similarities between the two are striking, especially when we are talking about soccer(violence). I don't understand people cheering on the sidelines for their team.

Exploration, this one's controversial, and while I don't doubt explorers are motivated by patriotism. Most explorers were, to a certain extent, conquerors, I wouldn't use that as a positive example of patriotism.

[proteus_lives]

252. It's all a matter of perspective.

"Exploration, this one's controversial, and while I don't doubt explorers are motivated by patriotism. Most explorers were, to a certain extent, conquerors, I wouldn't use that as a positive example of patriotism."

For example, what were the men of the Apollo mission conquering except the unknown? And didn't competition with Soviets in that area lead us to new heights?

[Veruca Salt]

148. Agreed, I've also got my Italian flag and my rainbow flag

they're part of who I am.

It's the rightwing who has made a mockery of the US flag and twisted what it stands for, and now they're doing the same with the Gadsden flag. :-(

[Captain Hilts]

152. We can't let them co-opt our symbols. Good on you! nt

[Dappleganger]

154. Well said, the RW'ers have ruined it for all of us.

I suggest we take it back and beat them over the head with a flagpole.

[Captain Hilts]

158. That's exactly as Eleanor would want us to do. Grab that sucker back! nt

[Dappleganger]

165. Which is why I love her so...

all compassion with a healthy dose of badass.

:evilgrin:

[Captain Hilts]

166. Yep. She'd just get in the 3 point stance, lower a shoulder and bowl 'em over, then

sweetly reach back, pick 'em up to knock 'em down again.

Do it with a smile...

[AsahinaKimi]

195. I happen to think that

The Canadian flag is very cool looking! So well designed.




I also like the Japanese flag because of its simplicity.

The Japanese Naval Rising sun flag is also very impressive looking.




As for the American flag, I once visited Betsey Ross's house in Philadelphia. She must have worked a long time sewing it. I could just image her, in her bonnet, and 1700 style dress sitting in a rocking chair, discussing the events of the day, while sewing the flag.


Pretty cool, ne!

[proteus_lives]

99. +1000

It's a E pluribus unum thing.

Brits just wouldn't understand.

[Captain Hilts]

123. The British do, but they don't have the same protocols, etc. for their flag as we do. In fact,

they don't have a 'set' way to fold it. You can drag it on the ground and still use it.

[miscsoc]

11. It has to do with anxieties about identity.

America has a short history and won't be able to develop any sort of real national identity for half a millenium or so. They have to fetishise flags, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution|scribblings of half-educated colonial magnates> etc. to give themselves some sense of belonging to something.

[Smarmie Doofus]

17. What a dirty trick:

>>>>>They have to fetishise flags, the scribblings of half-educated colonial magnates etc. to give themselves some sense of belonging to something.>>>>>>


Why, I oughta........

[Regret My New Name]

52. hahaha @ "scribblings of half-educated colonial magnates" [and where it linked]

I'm going to that as my stick as I poke some people.

[rockymountaindem]

81. Still bitter you lost?

Can't say I blame you. The USA is a pretty nice place to have, being big and roomy and geographically diverse as it is. If my country had let it slip through its fingers, I'd have a chip on my shoulder too.

[Moochy]

82. Toby Keith circa 2002 found a time machine!

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA !

[rockymountaindem]

87. That was quick. Looks like I touched a nerve n/t

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moochy]

89. Time Travelling Toby Keith you are a national treasure!

[dixiegrrrrl]

101. Doubt we will be around for even another 100 years.

The fact that our anthem comes from an ode to a battle instead of our anthem being America the Beautiful
says a lot about our country.

[TheMightyFavog]

120. Have you ever seen an English translation of the French anthem?

Let's go children of the fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us tyranny's
Bloody flag is raised! (repeat)
In the countryside, do you hear
The roaring of these fierce soldiers?
They come right to our arms
To slit the throats of our sons, our friends!

Refrain

Grab your weapons, citizens!
Form your batallions!
Let us march! Let us march!
May impure blood
Water our fields!


This horde of slaves, traitors, plotting kings,
What do they want?
For whom these vile shackles,
These long-prepared irons? (repeat)
Frenchmen, for us, oh! what an insult!
What emotions that must excite!
It is us that they dare to consider
Returning to ancient slavery!

What! These foreign troops
Would make laws in our home!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would bring down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brows would bend beneath the yoke!
Vile despots would become
The masters of our fate!

Tremble, tyrants! and you, traitors,
The disgrace of all groups,
Tremble! Your parricidal plans
Will finally pay the price! (repeat)
Everyone is a soldier to fight you,
If they fall, our young heros,
France will make more,
Ready to battle you!

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare these sad victims,
Regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But not these bloodthirsty despots,
But not these accomplices of Bouillé,
All of these animals who, without pity,
Tear their mother's breast to pieces!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Sacred love of France,
Lead, support our avenging arms!
Liberty, beloved Liberty,
Fight with your defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags, let victory
Hasten to your manly tones!
May your dying enemies
See your triumph and our glory!

Refrain

We will enter the pit
When our elders are no longer there;
There, we will find their dust
And the traces of their virtues. (repeat)
Much less eager to outlive them
Than to share their casket,
We will have the sublime pride
Of avenging them or following them!

Refrain

[awoke_in_2003]

168. "Doubt we will be around for even another 100 years"

same here

[Withywindle]

230. Our anthem was written by a poet who watched the long DEFENSE at a random Baltimore fort

and was amazed to see the flag still there at dawn against all odds. War of 1812. We were the defenders. Guess who the invaders were?




Yeah, the OP's people, but I have no problem with that because, 200 years later, I love British music and literature.

[DevonRex]

138. At least we managed to get free of England. You folks in Scotland? Not so much.

You lost your land, your language, even your frickin' tartans.

And I say that as somebody of Scottish heritage. But MY Scots ancestors left rather than be beaten down.

[Zix]

153. Oh, gosh. That's me told, eh?

I do wish I could be a big, brave handsome American like you. Could you send me some cash? I need my heroin fix.

[DevonRex]

213. No, that's miscsoc told. I didn't reply to you at all. nt

[Zix]

223. Well, you did say "you Scottish" an' all...

And that includes me... :D

[Tailormyst]

243. Okay, think of it like this then

Think of our flag like a Tartan. It an identity thing, a pride thing. Being from New England the flag has great history here.

[Zix]

262. Best one yet!

I approve :D

[DevonRex]

251. But until you replied to me above, you hadn't insulted us. You had simply

asked a question. Misco... whatever his name is... went out of his way TO insult us and got what he deserved in return.

[awoke_in_2003]

167. and your well trained military...

got beat by a bunch of farmers and (to add insult to injury) the French navy- all of whom were financed by the Dutch.

[Scuba]

12. You have to remember....

...that EVERYTHING in the USA is about spin.

That said, I'll have several flags out in the yard this weekend, to remind neighbors that despite my Obama bumper sticker, I am a patriot. That's my spin.

Burning the flag has become the purest form of political protest, I guess since we're all reluctant to immolate ourselves.

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. This insomniac will take a run at it.

Time was, when I was growing up in the late 40's, 50's, etc. we said Pledge of Allegiance
in school ( to the Republic, for which it stands).
And were taught to respect the flag, to display it properly, etc.
My country, my flag, and all that.



By the end of the Viet Nam war, the flag and country stood for hypocrisy, in my mind.
It has been abused as a political tool to wave around at conventions,
and as a symbol of jingoism that is plastered on the clothing of US troops.



I don't disrespect the flag. It simply has little awe inspiring meaning anymore.

I think Bush stated his feelings for the flag pretty obviously:

[Mist]

18. I'm with you, dixiegrrrl--it's come to mean hypocrisy and political bullying, here and

around the world.

I never had an emotive response to the flag, other than thinking, design-wise, it's too busy. I remember having an argument with my father about the meaning of the flag. During the Vietnam era, some older kids in my high school were refusing to say the pledge of allegiance because of the war, and I thought (little 7th grader that I was) that I might refuse also. My father, a WWII vet, was also strongly opposed to the Vietnam war, but said I should honor the flag for what America could be, not as a symbol of what it was currently. He was quite upset I would even think of not saying the pledge of allegiance. To him, the flag was a symbol of the future possibilites of America, and I should honor that.

[noamnety]

40. political AND religious bullying

That's what it's symbolized to me, since a very young age. (Specifically since the age where I had to go in front of the whole class in elementary school and say the entire thing by myself, my face burning with anger and embarrassment, because the teacher noticed I had stayed silent during the "under god" part on account of being an atheist.

To be honest, since then even though I served in the army and all, I'd just as soon pee on the flag as salute it.

[depakid]

68. Americans revere their flag so much they even have a holiday for it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Day_%28United_States%29

Which people don't really celebrate much less get a day off for anymore. It's sort of been forgotten or rejected- just like the ideas the flag once stood for.

[proteus_lives]

197. LOL as always.

Even if you eat as much vegamite as you can, you're still an American.

:rofl:

[depakid]

202. Which makes me uniquely qualified to laugh at the lunacy from a saner vantage

How pathetic is to have a holiday for a flag?

That's really taking fetishism to another level... don't you think?

[proteus_lives]

209. No sillier then celebrating the Queen's birthday.

We don't celebrate Obama's birthday.

That's really taking fetishism to another level...don't you think?

[depakid]

211. That's an excuse for a party or a fishing trip!

No one cares about the Queen. Long weekends on the other hand....

[proteus_lives]

216. Long weekends are nice.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard any about Flag day since grade school. Mostly, it's a sales day now.

Memorial Day on the other hand, that's one to think about. I plan on going to the graves of veteran family members with my father (a vet himself) and have a potluck dinner with friends.

[Violet_Crumble]

205. You spelt Vegemite wrong

Besides, what does depakid's nationality have to do with anything he said in his post? Or are you one of those anti-Vegemite types I've been warned about?

[proteus_lives]

208. Meh, Vegemite is ok.

Had it once.

I just enjoy yanking on DK's chain, He's a one-trick pony who never varies from his script. I find it amusing.

[Smarmie Doofus]

15. It stands for "Conform, or ELSE....". That's pretty much it. nt

[B Calm]

16. It stands for corporate FREEDOM!

[WinkyDink]

19. You never had a revolution to become free from a tyrant. :-)

[Zix]

20. Erm...

Are you sure about that?

[WinkyDink]

23. Do you mean Boudicca? Were you a nation then? Wat Tyler? Not quite a success.

Guy Fawkes? Another wannabe (my birthday is 11/05).

Hitler? Not a home-boy.

[eShirl]

22. Wait, what about

that guy who lost his head... Charles, was it?

[WinkyDink]

24. Why, yes, it was Charles I. Vs. Oliver Cromwell. It's called a Civil War, not a revolution.

The Cavaliers vs. the Roundheads.
As opposed to the Boston Celtics.

[Posteritatis]

137. It was as much a civil war as the American Revolution was, just with a different outcome. (nt)

[WinkyDink]

25. Did you have a revolution to form a new nation?

WITH A NEW FLAG?


The Romans left.
The Vikings were never "tyrants" in control.
The Norman Conquest was just that, not a war "to break away from a tyrant".
The Inter-Regnum was the result of a CIVIL War, not a revolution.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Yes, they did change the flag, actually

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-inter.html

And don't pretend that what happened in 1776 wasn't another civil war. Many British subjects in America didn't like what the British Parliament and king were doing, and rebelled. Some didn't, and fought against them. The people concerned (Washington, Adams, Jefferson etc.) were all of British descent; there were no significant American Indians in positions of power in the war, nor colonists from other nations.

Charles I was, of course, far more of a tyrant than George III, who had a lot less power. The American Revolution was against the British political system of the time, which included a powerful parliament. The Civil Wars in Britain and Ireland of the 1640s were far more against the king himself.

[Captain Hilts]

125. Most of the colonists didn't even support the Revolution! nt

[KharmaTrain]

21. Can You Explain The Bowing Down To The Queen Thing...

To each their own...

The flag is supposed to be a symbol...a logo...of the "concept" of a United States. Since we don't have a monarch or diety as a symbol, the flag takes its place.

[tanyev]

27. Nope, really can't.

I don't get it either. :shrug:

[DailyGrind51]

28. Can YOU explain British reverence for a family of "free-loaders"?

What does the Queen actually do besides glancing disdainfully at everyone else?

[Zix]

57. Nah, man, you go first.

[DailyGrind51]

162. Hey, I have not displayed the flag in years!

[Zix]

229. Ok, i'll give it a go....

The freeloaders symbolise the people. It's a difficult job for them because they've got to figure out what the people's values are and actually embody them.

That's why you've got so many Royal Societies, these things are all expressions of the desires of the people of the UK. The UK is an animal-loving nation so you have the RSPCA the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. The UK is a star-gazing nation so you have Royal Observatories.

The Royal Family have to live as if they are living embodiments of British values. That's why Elizabeth had to go into the factories to work during World War II, because the British people did.

The wealth of the monarchy is the wealth of the nation.

Swans belong to the Queen, but what that really means is that swans belong to the whole nation, and not just politically but *in perpetuity*, the Queen's not elected. Its a way of ensuring that certain things are ALWAYS there.

And its not necessarily big things. Just important things. British things.

[DailyGrind51]

253. Let's say our flag symbolizes our supposed unity as a country, which is a joke, given

our obvious disunity. What should bring all 50 states together on one piece of cloth, merely separates them into pockets of finger-pointing and blame. In truth, we have become the "Divided States of America".

BTW, we have "Royal Pudding" and "Royal Jello" without having a queen.

[Captain Hilts]

156. Most of Liz's money goes waaaaaay back. It costs us more to keep the president going. nt

[DailyGrind51]

163. Back to when her ancestors earned it from the backs of oppressed serfs!

The president has one hell of a lot more on his plate than that pompous old biddy who probably has someone to remind her when her wig needs cleaning.

[Captain Hilts]

164. It costs us a lot more. Just sayin'. nt

[Hosnon]

214. Damn straight. Monarchs represent the pinnacle of the oppression of the poor by the rich.

It wasn't enough for her god-damned ancestors to be the wealthiest fucks around? Of course not - so they decided they'd annoint themselves with political power as well.

I have no respect for monarchs or monarchists.

[Mudoria]

29. Doesn't look that way when England takes the pitch for a game

All you see is a bunch of flags with the cross of St.George on it being waved furiously. Explanation?

[Moochy]

46. You are right they are identical to the USA

[stray cat]

31. Its a reminder of the sacrifice people made to gain independence from Brit and its kings

[Robb]

33. And over the years, every other sacrifice, too.

Put a few friends into the ground underneath one, it reinforces the idea. Velcro it to your arm and run into danger and It becomes totemic.

[surrealAmerican]

32. It has more to do with indoctrination at an early age ...

... than anything else. It is displayed in every classroom, from kindergarten to high school, and "pledged to" every day. For people who don't understand our country's history, it becomes a sort of surrogate for the country's ideals.

[pipi_k]

39. I was going to post the same thing

From our earliest days in school, we're taught to pledge allegiance to our flag.

And I don't know about anyone else, but I was always taught to love and respect the flag as a symbol...maybe even the very "soul" of our country.

The teaching was so thorough that the one time I caused a US flag (displayed on a stand) to fall on the floor, I was terrified that I had brought disaster upon myself and the country (I was maybe 14 or so).



That having been said, I really really like the Canadian flag, and have one on display on my home (below the US flag). :)

[Moochy]

37. Soft Power's Symbols are Softer

:evilgrin:

You have a more healthy and idiosyncratic view of your national identity than does the typical American, who is quite oblivious to the depth of the flag symbolism and ritualism.

Fascist Propaganda is less effective in countries where the entire population had to live through the ravages of it first hand, and not just send armies and see news reels. Here after the war, The US welcomed Nazis into normal US life: The space program, the training of anti-soviet espionage assets, etc.

Plus like you say, you've got the royals, whose main purpose seems to be being the butt of jokes, and live as inbred reminders of the silliness of the 'embodied' State.

[lynne]

38. A good question for Memorial Day weekend -

- I stand at attention for our flag. I also put my hand over my heart when I say the Pledge. Its an act of respect not only to our country but - at least for me - for those who have died defending our liberties and who have served in the military.

Those that went before us - those that died defending us - our ideals and dreams - that's what I'm thinking about when I see our flag.

[polmaven]

42. Well said, lynne

My thoughts exactly.

[Captain Hilts]

127. Yes, I agree. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. When I was in school, every morning started with the Pledge of Allegiance

"I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation (under God--a phrase added in 1954 during the McCarthy era), indivisble
with liberty and justice for all."

When I was in second grade, we even had a curriculum unit on proper treatment of the flag, how to fold it properly, never to let it touch the ground, etc.

Looking at it from an adult point of view, it seems quasi-religious. The intent behind it was to assimilate immigrant children and turn them into patriotic little Americans.

But a lot of people have never grown out of that childish level of "patriotism."

That's why the first flag burnings during the Vietnam War period were such powerful (and, to many people, offensive) protests. That's why the right wingers make such political capital out of their periodic proposals to pass a Constitutional amendment (!) to ban flag burning as a political protest.

It's all the result of indoctrination.

I notice that you Brits are much less reverent about your flag and realize that it's just a symbol.

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. Most British people never swear an oath of/pledge allegiance to anyone or anything

The police do, the Army and Air Force do (though, curiously, not the Navy or Marines), and judges, magistrates, MPS, scouts and guides. And naturalized citizens.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7289504.stm

[marshall]

45. It's a way to unify an idea/ideal, in the same way "Green" unifies an idea/ideal

I'm hearing green used in everything these days. It was the main trope in a librarian conference I went to a few weeks ago. It peppers the advertising one sees on television. It is used to indicate areas of conservation of resources. I saw that bicycle lanes are being painted green in NYC (and perhaps other big cities).

The color green and the word has been latched onto by modern society to unify folks toward the notion of saving the planet. It's really the same process that the flag was used for--especially in times of crisis such as the American Revolution, World War Two, or the Cold War.

[MorningGlow]

48. "Team" mentality

Too many people see Murka as a "team" (my team can kick your team's ass) and the flag as the team colors. It's also been co-opted by too many people in an overly moral sense; that is, if you're a "good person", you're a Kee-ristian and wear your flag t-shirt/pin/denim jacket/etc. along with your cross, and if you don't, then you're a heathen.

I honor my country, but the "team colors" are secondary to what the country actually is.

[asjr]

49. It keeps flag makers in business.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. The US flag was made to set us apart from Britain

So it is fitting that you would not quite get it. Personally, I think you are making too much out of the difference.
While you speak of the Royal Family, you fail to acknowledge the very word 'Royal' which is applied to oh, so many things. That is a word of patriotism, a very high blow sort. Here we have U.S. Mail. Yours, however, is Royal. Here, we have American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to animals. Yours, however, is Royal. Not the British Society. The Royal Society. If you chew on that for a moment, while meditating on a photo of Abbie Hoffman in an American flag shirt, you might get some insights.
I think you have the flag equivalent many times over, actually. I've seen with my eyes thousands of people lining the streets to catch a look at one of your living symbols of state. Never seen that for a flag.

[Moochy]

55. facepalm

"it is fitting that you would not quite get it"

[Zix]

58. Yeah, this is a diatribe about the Royal Family.

It doesn't really have anything to do with your flag.

So, what about your flag?

[TransitJohn]

51. This one?

[Martin Eden]

53. Well, I can tell you my own feelings and thoughts ...

I was never a big flag-waver myself, though for most of my life I viewed the American flag with a degree of pride and reverence. Growing up in the 60's I said the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag every morning at school and learned from the standard history books that cast the United States in a very positive light. As a kid I was very interested in WWII and I loved to "play army" with toy guns. I was proud of my country and how it won the Big War and how it was standing up against the Soviet Empire that denied people so much of the freedom and liberty we enjoyed.

However, I was not one of those "love it or leave it" patriots. I understood there were significant problems and injustice in my country, and I was ardently opposed to the war in Vietnam. I did not support desecration of the flag (burning it, etc) but I also had no respect for people who cling to and wave the flag as a knee-jerk reaction to criticism of our country's foreign policies.

I experienced very strong conflicting emotions about the flag during the presidency of GW Bush. Like most Americans I rallied around the flag after 9/11. I was given a small flag decal for the inside window of my car, and I still display it the newer car I drive today (the same rear side window has a decal of the baseball team I root for, the Chicago White Sox).

The war in Iraq caused the conflicting emotions. I was convinced before we invaded (and still am) that it was illegal, immoral, and a colossal blunder. I live in a Republican district (DuPage County, west of Chicago) and I still have a distinct memory of walking through my neighborhood and seeing all the houses flying the American flag just before and a long time after we invaded Iraq, and I remember thinking how those symbolic displays were in support of a war that I found utterly abhorrent.

The flag for which I always had some reverence was the most conspicuous symbol of something I rejected with every fiber of my being. It made me absolutely sick to see Bush and his cohorts wrapping themselves in the flag while wiping their asses with the Constitution, and to endure all the hypocritical shouts of treason! for daring to exercise my right to question my own government and stand opposed to its crimes.


I think the obsession for the flag in this country is mostly on the "conservative" side of the spectrum, and to some degree is a symptom of our deep political divisions. By clinging to the flag and their Bible, rightwingers reassure themselves they are the ones who are moral and right and standing up for core American values. This reassurance is to a large extent the product of rightwing media from Rush Limbaugh on AM radio to Fox News on television, but it is also cultural and has been around for a long time. It can be found in some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian churches, and is indeed a form of indoctrination.

It is extremely difficult for people to objectively seek knowledge and understanding beyond (and perhaps in conflict to) the beliefs and attitudes that have been ingrained since early childhood. When those beliefs are challenged the instinct is to cling to them more tightly -- and the American Flag is a major symbol to which many of their beliefs are attached. It is sad and ironic that charlatans like Glenn Beck are usurping the flag to promote false propaganda that undermines many of the principles the flag is supposed to represent.

And I am personally saddened that when I look at the flag all of that comes to mind instead of the pride that I once felt and hope to feel again.

[Zix]

113. Thanks for a moving response... and it reveals something , perhaps...

My mother grew up in a bombshelter in World War II, in London, during the Blitz. It wasn't so much a war of principles as a war of survival. There was a very real possibility that Germany would invade and subsequently conquer the UK.

My grandfather fought in WWII and went to the concentration camps to free the prisoners. He wouldn't talk about it. At all.

I once asked my grandmother if I should join the Army. She told me not to. She said she'd seen enough of her relatives going through "that sort of thing." She was very sincere about it, she held my hand and kissed me. "There's trouble in life," she said, "and there's no point going and looking for it."

You'd expect us all to be obsessed with the Union Jack, waving it at every opportunity, but we don't.

It's probably because of WWI. I wonder sometimes if a lot of American's aren't so clear on WWI, but it was the first World War that kind of destroyed the idea of war as a development of nationhood in Europe, not WWII.

[Martin Eden]

177. WWII heralded the end of the British Empire and the rise of ours

While your mum was growing up in a bomb shelter the US became the "arsenal of democracy" and was the indispensible country in defeating the Axis powers. Was the Union Jack by any chance a little more revered when Brittania ruled the waves?

But with Americans it goes deeper than pride in empire. We were raised to believe that we are the champions of liberty in a world that has a long and terrible history of tyranny. "American exceptionalism" is especially embraced by those who view the world in terms of black and white. When you try to explain shades of gray they call you an "apologist" for the bad guys. As I said before, the American flag is a symbol to which they attach their strongly held beliefs and much of their identity. In the no-holds-barred world of American partisan politics, the Republican strategy has been to constantly hammer home their core message that they stand for God and Country and that "liberal" is a derogatory word. The flag is used as both a potent symbol and a political weapon.

It has gotten to the point where a politician who doesn't wear a flag pin on his lapel has his patriotism called into question. Those who lend credence to such superficial measures of patriotism only serve to diminish that which they profess to hold dear.

Many of us on the left understand that ultimately our flag cannot be desecrated by those people, just as hymn-singing hypocrites cannot discredit the true teachings of Jesus. We still value the flag for what it means to us, and we hope that our efforts will lead to the day when it is not abused for political purposes and all of us can wave it proudly.

[Captain Hilts]

59. The Union Jack - Liz's flag - is considered the world's 1st piece of 'modern' art. It's great!

I fly it on Magna Carta Day and Liz's birthday.

[Catherina]

60. Starts in the US Flag Code. Unlike other flags, the US Flag is a LIVING thing

The laws relating to the flag of the United States of America are found in detail in the United States Code. Title 4, Chapter 1 pertains to the flag; Title 18, Chapter 33, Section 700 regards criminal penalties for flag desecration; Title 36, Chapter 3 pertains to patriotic customs and observances. These laws were supplemented by Executive Orders and Presidential Proclamations.

j. ... The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.

k.The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

[Moochy]

64. Creepy... almost like transubstantiation in the Catholic dogma

speaking as an ex-catholic, who finds the transubstantiation commonplace...
(Yum Jesus flesh for sunday brunch! I'll have the white meat please!)

[pipi_k]

72. The Jesus flesh in my church

tasted a whole lot like Wonder Bread.

The "wine" tasted like Welch's grape juice.



That was years ago, and it was a Protestant church, so maybe that was why...

[Moochy]

75. Actually the "host" was more like styrofoam cup

I used to think if Jesus was made of this stuff, this explains why he was so easy to nail to a cross!

[pipi_k]

79. OMG!!!

bwahahahahahahahahahahahhaahah!!!!!!!!!


I know I shouldn't laugh, but....



hhahahhahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

[Catherina]

74. It's creepy beyond belief

I used to have to sit through daily ceremonies of watching French, US and British soldiers raise and lower their flags in joint commands.

The funniest thing was when it was raining. The Brit and French soldiers would just yank down their flag, ball it up and get out of there. The US soldiers had to go through a ridiculous ceremony of slooooowly, respectfully bringing it down, then sloooowly, ceremoniously handling points of it to each other as they sloooowly, ceremoniously followed the protocol of which corner to bring against the other in an eleborate folding ceremony where the flag could never touch anything lest the offending soldier be punuished. They looked down on other soldiers for not respecting their flag. The whole thing was pathetic but you understood the psychological manipulation that got them to the point that just seeing the flag gave them a *lump in the throat*.

What kind of cynical government does that to its young boys? This is why US soldiers would rather die than leave the flag behind where an *enemy* could *disrespect* their beloved.

I refuse to give that rag any respect knowing what misery it causes and the propaganda that goes behind this sick game of convincing perfectly decent young men/women to sacrifice for it. This is idolatry at its finest and every single monothestic religion should be speaking out against it. Instead they send in chaplains to reinforce the sickness.

[Moochy]

86. The "Others" are those who don't share the cult mindset.

That same trained reaction that you call out in our soldiers to the European soldiers lack of respect for their flag you see here against the OP, it's present in all it's obscene glory.

That being said, I don't think a "superpower" with an all-volunteer military force is possible without huge, organized support from the organs of state control reinforcing these lies of American Exceptionalism.

[Catherina]

95. Well said. "In all its obscene glory"

I agree with your second point too but your first point is more upsetting.

Nobody can even ask a question of a brain-washed cult as if the questioner were the freakish offending party. Wake the fuck up America.

[dixiegrrrrl]

108. Arundhati Roy said it well:

"flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds & then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead."

[GoneOffShore]

135. Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!

Well quoted Dixie Girl -

I'm sixty two and got turned off to "flag worship" when my high school won the Francis Bellamy prize. All the adulation and bowing just sickened me.

[flamingdem]

71. The flag is considered a living thing? That's animism! We're all pagans nt

[TK421]

190. I think that is quite disturbing, actually...it's a piece of fucking cloth!

[Tailormyst]

63. its the history behind it, the men that have died for it, the freedom it represents.

If you don't get it, that's okay, I just can't really explain it to you. Your people, for the most part, have always been on the soil you are on, there is a history there that binds you together. In American, we come from all over, a nation of immigrants. The flag, IMHO, represents a point of unity for us all.

[Captain Hilts]

65. The 48 star version played a big role in defeating Hitler. Pearl Harbor was the best Xmas gift

Churchill and the British could have gotten in '41.

Eleanor: Everybody say 'Cheese'!
FDR: Cheeeeeese!
WSC: Wha...?

[treestar]

183. Good point.

I wonder if our apparent love of war is related to that too. After 911 there was so much on how we were united. Like that's so rare.

[Burma Jones]

66. We had to assimilate people from all over Europe, and then the rest of the world

So, the Flag serves the purpose of a shared ethnicity or a state religion or other common experience.

[Moochy]

92. Who is we kemosabe?

I think that you make a fair point about the utility of assimilation, especially when you put yourself in the fine shoes of a colonial land owner, in the tumultuous 18th century.

[Zix]

115. Interesting, I hadn't heard that theory.

Makes a lot of sense. Good practice, really, if you think about it...

[Captain Hilts]

161. It's specifically because we're so diverse that the flag takes on an extra meaning. nt

[Zix]

265. Now THAT's a thing worth respecting.

It would be nice if some people made a bit more of that point...

[MrScorpio]

67. Jingoism = The only authorized official state religion n/t

[aikoaiko]

69. It's a symbol of our ideals. What's with your monarchy worship?

:shrug:

[flamingdem]

73. And the cult of Diana! lol nt

[pipi_k]

76. The only Monarchy I worship...

is Prince William.

Oh, to be 40 years younger again.... sigh.... :loveya:






Middle aged American lady with a shameful crush
:+

[Zix]

84. Well, if it's bad for US to do it...

Why is it okay for you?

Hm?

You're not answering my question, anyway. If it makes you feel better I think the Royal Family are a hoot! It's a bit like being related to a family of weird eccentrics. Nobody worships them!

What I want to know is what you think of your flag. Ideals, yeah, what ideals? What my post asked is what YOU were THINKING.

[Enrique]

77. it's because we're #1 and you're not

just kidding. I love the Brits, except for BP. :hi:

[Cleobulus]

78. Notice, even on a so called "liberal board" the nationalism, and indeed patronization of Americans

who basically do not know the answer themselves, and yet still they dismiss your question, and yourself, simply because you are a foreigner. I find it deeply disturbing, as far as flag worship, well, I see it in others, don't understand it, I'm not nationalistic, and find it rather distasteful, personally.

[Moochy]

83. community standards have lapsed

with regard to jinogism, its much worse here than it was in 2003-2004 when "The Bad Guys" were wrapping themselves in the flag and treating it like godflesh.

[Cleobulus]

85. True, though honestly, even the most leftist of Americans still act like Americans...

most of the time. Nationalistic, Jingoistic, and insular, and that's putting it kindly.

[Zix]

90. No-one actually seems to have anything positive to say other than mentioning "ideals". WHAT ideals?

Nobody seems to know what they are.

I'm not even trying to say it's a bad thing. I don't KNOW whether or not it's a good or a bad thing, I just don't understand it. And everyone's either coming out with vicious poison about how awful it is or being weird and defensive.

No-one's coming out with anything substantial or positive.

[Cleobulus]

93. Hell if I know, I mean, I believe in democracy, rule of law, civil rights for all...

equal rights for all, etc. but I don't think the American Flag is a symbol for that, hell, given the actions of the American Government over the past 50 years, the American flag should mean death before anything else.

[Posteritatis]

139. Part and parcel of exceptionalism - people like to believe those are unique to the US. (nt)

[Tailormyst]

256. You've had your question answered over and over politely

I now think you never wanted answers you just wanted to act like an ass this weekend. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner.

[krabigirl]

149. Me too. I was born here and have never gotten the extreme flag worship thing.

[NoGOPZone]

91. No I can't

My neighbor, a lifelong American who often complains about overly patriotic attitudes when he isn't complaining about something else, recently decorated his front lawn in the most garish display of flags I've ever seen. I hope it's just for this weekend.

Having said this, I'm not sure the behavior you describe is unique to Americans. Flags and decals from foreign countries around the world can be found on and in the cars and houses around where I live. With the World Cup about to be played, I'm going to see even more. We'll even get the third generation American who doesn't even like soccer flying another countries flag for a month or two

[Zix]

110. Okidoke.

See, for sport it makes sense to me. that's fair enough. (I guess. Maybe it's not!)

[branders seine]

94. red is for the innocent livesAmerica has snuffed out while attempting

to conquer all the brown- and yellow-skinned countries with oil.

The white stripes are for the only color of skin that is Gawd-approved.

The blue is for how sad America makes anyone who loves freedom or truth.

The stars are the little twinkling reflections of light that sparkle on the oil-coated beaches of the world.

Glad I could help.

[proteus_lives]

103. God, that's stupid.

It's like what a ignorant freeper saying America is perfect.

[Mudoria]

238. Isn't it though...

[proteus_lives]

96. A symbol of unity and our higher ideals

It's about different people coming together to form something wonderful.

E pluribus unum.

For example, 13 colonies coming together to give the British army a good kicking.

The flag still flying in the face of adversity is a big part of American culture.

[Zix]

111. So it's a stoicism thing? M'kay, I get that.

I do wonder why it isn't the same in Britain. My mother grew up in a bomb shelter during the Blitz! But she wouldn't fly the Union Jack except as a joke. Maybe we're at fault.

[proteus_lives]

192. Different strokes for different folks.

History tells us that Brits are very patriotic but express it in different ways.

[NYC Liberal]

97. Different people have different traditions.

Some take theirs too seriously, others maybe not enough. Most probably respect the traditions of their own country without getting too crazy about it, whether they participate or not.

There is tradition with the US flag, just like there are traditions in the UK. Aren't there some people who defend the Royal Family at all costs? And others who maybe have a hatred for them that goes beyond reasonable? Don't most accept the Royal Family as part of history and tradition without having irrational love or hate, whether they want to end the monarchy or not?

Same with the US flag.

[fascisthunter]

106. well right now there is a feverish display of our poor flag by right wing nationalistic nutcases

a few years of propaganda regarding the 9-11 and the fanatical and uniformed will display it everywhere. You'd think some Americans were paranoid somebody might mistaken them for foreigners... I wonder if the flag is being used as a way to ward off the xenophobes or to promote the xenophobia itself.

[nichomachus]

107. It's very easy to explain

Americans have an inferiority complex of epic proportions.

This results in the Nazi-like display of flags from everything that will hold a flag -- along with the endless mantra that "We're #1," despite the fact that we're not really #1 in anything except starting and prosecuting wars.

We lag in health care, education, upward mobility (despite the propaganda), manufacturing, etc.

[Zix]

126. Is that TRUE? I really can't believe that's true, really I can't.

I can't believe that Americans cling to their strong sense of nationality through an inferiority complex. We're talking about the nation that built the space shuttle!

What's the stuff of the inferiority complex? OK, the Greeks invented democracy and the British kicked off the whole parliament thing but that doesn't give the rest of the world an inferiority complex!

What's the rest of the world got that makes America feel inferior? This lagging behind in capitalist stakes, loads of people are like that, it doesn't make BRAZIL freak out, does it?

????

[proteus_lives]

193. He's talking about HIS inferiority complex.

Some people see only the bad or only the good.

[Cleita]

109. It's our coat of arms since we really don't have an

official aristocracy like your royals. However, it's the conservatives who are all bewitched by it, waving it, dressing in it's colors, plastering it all over their cars and in general proclaiming themselves as the idiots that they are.

[Greybnk48]

114. Well, first of all we're young. And we've fought to keep it twice.

Once with you blokes (a large number of which are us), and once among ourselves. Maybe that's it, at least in part.

[Zix]

122. See, ours is probably about to get chopped up.

I can't imagine the English are very keen on me right now (Scottish). It's essentially my fault that they haven't got a Tory Government, apparently!

A lot of them want rid of Scotland.

Might make things look a bit different...

[Captain Hilts]

129. Scotland did its bit to keep the Tories out...

Yeah, I'm a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce.

Got all the family silver to prove it!

[Zix]

144. Good lad!

You'll have a nice big saltire in your collection then!



Although I have to say I'm even more ambivalent about that flag than the Union Jack... It primarily symbolises haggis, bagpipes, heroin addiction and teenage pregnancy, these days...

And there's something ironic about the fact that it's name is a portmanteau of "salt" and "ire"...

[Captain Hilts]

155. It's the official flag of the Buckfast Belt!

[Captain Hilts]

124. I wrote the British Embassy to get instructions on how to respectfully fold the flag

that was on my grandfather's casket and got no response.

I then wrote an e-mail to Sandhurst - he graduated from there and was an instructor - and they told me to, basically, sod off.

[Zix]

140. Were they actually insulting about it?

[Captain Hilts]

143. Well, yes. I had asked how to fold it respectfully and explained that I got no response

from the Embassy - despite listing a local phone number - and they told me that it was parade season and they had no time for my inquiry. Despite his serving over 30 years.

I have his hand written diary of combat in France in WWI and am thinking twice about giving it to Sandhurst.

[Zix]

145. I don't think you SHOULD give it Sandhurst...

It's yours! I would keep it.

[Captain Hilts]

151. I love having it. But I think it belongs to history. Here in the US, folks

don't really give a damn about The Great War. My youngest great uncle, Richard, was killed on his birthday at the Battle of the Somme.

My great grandmother was invited to the Buck House for having 4 sons in uniform.

I figure it would be lost among all the stuff at the War Museum.

I would definitely have it scanned before donation.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

131. And yet Britons are going nuts now because they want to fly the flag during the World Cup

And some of your fellow countryman's words about immigrants have been as bad as our countryman's words on immigrants.

[Zix]

141. Well, that's more of an English problem than a Scottish problem, I think you'll find....

;-)

rib, rib

[muriel_volestrangler]

142. Some of the more idiotic sections of England are going mad, because they want an excuse to do so

and every World Cup (and maybe European Championships too), someone invents a story about flags being banned in some way, and then the English equivalents of teabaggers enjoy getting up in arms about the supposed threat to their avowed patriotism etc. It's all very predictable, and rather depressing.

[Captain Hilts]

159. LOVED how Bobbies went to Germany to control British fans in 2004! nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

258. Sadly, count my in-laws among those British teabagging ranks.

[TheMightyFavog]

133. Good Article on the flag by Rick Steves

http://www.ricksteves.com/about/pressroom/activism/letter.htm

Dates back to the start of the Iraq war.
Dear Editor, A few weeks ago the Lions Club decided to drape Edmonds with flags (a thoughtful service it provides on national holidays) as a show of support for our troops. They planned to leave the flags out until all the troops were home. I explained to the president of the Lions Club that for many, the flags mean, "support our troops" and we all agree with that. But for others, the flag used this way at this time also symbolizes support of President Bush's foreign policy. I was speaking for many business owners and citizens of Edmonds who consider this pro-war flag flying an abuse of our flag. He understood our feelings, checked with his fellow Lions, and agreed that the flags would be taken down. Last weekend, I helped the Lions put the flags away.

As a patriot and a good citizen, I am concerned that America is making a huge and long-term mistake in its foreign policy. We won the war but we are losing the world. At my church we learned those with a hammer as their primary tool are inclined to see every problem as a nail.

Flipping through the newspaper, I see so many social services (humane touches we could afford since I've been a kid) dying or in budget crises. Why? "Because there's not enough money." Any time someone tells me there's no longer enough money for desperate single mothers, special-needs children, ailing seniors, health care for the poor, or arts programs, I say there's as much money as ever...it's our priorities that have changed. We decided, instead, to spend $350 billion a year on our military and an extra $80 billion or so for "regime change" in Iraq.

The other day I got an email from someone who no longer buys Mr. French's Mustard. (Mr. French was an American. The company is English-owned.) Even though Edmonds' Café de Paris has a Swiss-owned sign in its window, this person would never stoop to patronizing such a place. They said that they have enjoyed many wonderful European vacations (and saved piles of money) thanks to my guidebooks. But now that they hear I am "pro peace," they'll never again buy one of my books.

Later that day, I stood on 4th avenue looking through waving American flags at my building, which has a "peace is patriotic" sign in the window. A man across the street asked, "Are you reconsidering your politics? Do you know how much business you're losing because of your no war sign?" I said, "It's probably very expensive." Then I asked him if he figured it was right for someone to base their decision to support or not support a war based on the effect it would have on their income. Lately, I believe standing up to my government — at whatever cost to my business — is standing up for my country.

Good patriots can support President Bush. And good patriots can oppose him. Good patriots can disagree with our new doctrine of pre-emptive war. Good patriots can respect the French. Good patriots can even believe in the United Nations...and feel sad as they wonder why our country is routinely out-voted in the UN 170 to 2. Good patriots can want to get along with the rest of our world. Good patriots can believe that spending more on our military than the rest of the world combined while neglecting vital people needs in our homeland is a sad and tragic mistake. But no good patriot would hijack the flag we all want to love as a logo for their politics. In this regard — I hope — united we stand.

I thank the Lions Club for their service. And look forward to seeing the flags again on Memorial Day.

Rick Steves

[GoneOffShore]

136. I don't use his guides but I like his politics.

[Martin Eden]

247. "no good patriot would hijack the flag we all want to love as a logo for their politics"

That's it in a nutshell.

I just wish all the nutjobs could understand it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

147. Think tribal, clan, totem. Lapel pin "patriotism".

[Jamastiene]

150. It is not a symbol of what we are so much as it is a

symbol of what we aspire to be as a country. At least that is how a vet in my family explained it to me. I don't get all teary eyed over it or anything, but this relative does. So, I asked. That was the answer, for what it is worth.

[Zix]

182. Yeah , yeah, I get that BUT

WHAT is it that the teary eyed vets want America to aspire to BEING?

I'M CONFUSED...

[Jamastiene]

184. You are not the only one.

I am too. :shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

160. Ok, my flag simply stands for 'laissez les bon temps rouler'

Someone in the 19th Century claimed the colours stand for: Justice (purple) Power (gold) Faith (green), but this is largely ignored if not mocked.

[Zix]

178. cool! nt

[CreekDog]

169. I never understood it either --a flag is just a thing...a symbol to be sure but still a thing

and because the flag is more a symbol of America than of freedom or liberty alone...that flag is not really the best symbol of those things.

so i don't get emotional over the flag.

[Festivito]

173. Reliving childhood through remembering saying Pledge of Allegiance.

Doesn't remembering a bit of your youth bring a smile to your face?

A bit of idealistic youthfulism rises for us in viewing our flag. The idealism of youth and the idealism that birthed America are probably conflated a bit.

America the committed to people, humble, vanquisher of despots, elevator of government of the people by the people for the people and with the consent of the people.

That idealism that was America's as she started wanes, but, then, our hope increases commensurately.

The above does not explain our disgusting Republicans. They seem to live for unearned inheritances, unjustified self-aggrandizement, disassociation from reality and simpletonism where propaganda then instills belief more in a flag than what it represents.

[Taverner]

175. "My daddy died in Korea for that flag!" "Funny, my flag says MADE IN KOREA"

Thank you Bill Hicks....

[Yeahyeah]

176. .

[Zix]

180. ?

:shrug:

[The Wizard]

185. Pagan idolatry (NT)

[KonaKane]

186. Hey, this Pagan never worshipped it.

It's attached creed doesn't appeal to me.

[The Wizard]

187. Like religion

It gives some people an excuse to act out some form of insanity or provides patriotic cover for not paying taxes or engaging in some other form of civic responsibility..

[struggle4progress]

188. Ah, Zix! Methinks tis a game played here: "I lovest mine flag more than thou dost!"

The simple rule being: whosoever fareth poorly of argument, may cry aggrieved "I lovest mine flag more than thou dost," whereupon all hearing must of right rally to sooth whom crieth so and to berate them that afflicteth him

[Zix]

221. Oi! Stop mocking my languange! We're sensitive about it.

:D

[struggle4progress]

239. I just wanted to explain it in language you could understand

I can't speak Brythonic, Gaelic, Norse, or Pictish. Frankly I can't even remember the names of the old Anglo-Saxon letters, nor of the Runes. There's not any chance of my passing at Cockney rhyming slang

Then I see you using a term like "baseball shoes." Stuff like that just confuses us English speakers terribly

Here: :beer:

[moriah]

241. I was going to mock your spelling, actually...

One should memorise the reasons you honour the colours of your flag -- it's not like it's made from aluminium or a prop in the theatre. And let us not forget that at night, one should always aim a torch at the flag. Too bad the torch won't light my fag, though.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[kestrel91316]

196. SOME people think it is an object of worship. They are usually the same people

who spend Sundays beating their bibles, wherein it says something about "no graven images" and "no other god before me".

Go figure.

Nobody ever said Americans were sane.

[Robeson]

201. I agree with everything you say. I did put out our little U.S. garden flag for Memorial Day...

...not so much for me, but for my Grandparents, who fought - what I would consider - our last legitimate war. So, putting it out for 3 days, is a way of honoring my ancestors. The other 300 and some odd days, it's in the closet.

But, again, you're right.

[Zix]

222. ??? what am I right about???? I was asking a Question!!!!

???

[Motown_Johnny]

206. Sure, but first you explain Steak and Kidney pie to us

[Zix]

226. Well, it's a pie, made of pastry

such as one might compose of flour and water with some lard. Don't forget the lard, that's important.

You fry up bits of steak in lard and bits of kidney (yuck, but you have to have kidney, cos this is a British dish) with onions and Worcester sauce and you make some gravy out of whatever you've got on the stove. Anything will do.

You make your lardy pastry and line a tin with it. Make sure you've wiped lard all over the inside of the tin. Then you put your mix of meaty stuff in the pastry. You're allowed to eat some while you're doing this.

You make a nice lid out of more lardy pastry and cover the top of the tin so that it makes a nice pie.

Put in a the oven until it's cooked.

Take it out once cooked, let it cool a little and then pour yourself a pint of bitter.

Sit outside in the beer garden with your bitter and your steak and kidney pie and think the following thoughts:

"I am BRITISH. This is important, because though I am fat and untalented and stodgy and unimaginative and prone to fits of British self-pity and self-loathing and an inescapably British feeling of impending doom, such as one might expect of a country that's seen the Great Fire of London, the Black Death, World Wars I and II and the Blitz and the expenses scandal and poll tax riots and the destruction of the mines and the miner's way of life and the end of common sense and courtesy, stupid drug problems riddling every housing estate in the land and bad-tempered, irrational people emoting everywhere left right and centre, none of this is matters, because I am BRITISH and once upon a time that meant fairmindedness and kindness to strangers and stoicism in the face of adversity and common decency and not taking yourself too seriously and being happy to be small, sturdy, humble, a bit silly and lovable and just generally an OK guy that most people would like to get to know and even though being British isn't like that anymore it was once and that's something. Munch, munch. Mope."

Geddit?

[boppers]

210. "baseball boots"? Whazzat?

(I can't believe I'm the first to ask...) Baseball is played in cleats, or shoes, boots would be slow to run in, so I'm confused....

edit: typo

[Zix]

225. These are baseball boots...

So whadda you call over there? I thought they were an American invention! Fine things they are, too...

[boppers]

234. Those are converse sneakers/trainers.

I can see why they might be called "boots" to others, but they're just regular shoes/trainers/sneakers here.

This is a boot:
http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=New+Rock+boots

[Zix]

235. That's not a boot that's a weapon of mass destruction!

:rofl:

[boppers]

237. The Spanish don't mess around.

They make New Rock boots, and you can't confuse them with sneakers/trainers.

[southernyankeebelle]

215. Well to me it shows how proud I am to be an american. I always show

honor to our flag. I make sure it is out there on the holidays. I don't like to see people wear it on cloths. To me its disrespectful. I am a military brat. There was a time when we were at the movie on a military base you had to stand up while the stars and strips were played. I loved it and it made me proud. Today I don't think people realize how hard the soldiers fought for us to have freedoms

[ohheckyeah]

217. I was born and raised here and I don't get it.

It's a piece of cloth. Whoopee.

[pepperbear]

219. ask this question in freepland. n/t

[Zix]

224. Don't wanna. Don't like freepland. nt

[TheKentuckian]

233. They used to program us to worship it as soon as we started school

including swearing allegiance daily. I figure it's some kind of conditioning program to instill loyalty to an idea that can be used as a lever to prod us into being pliable to the demands and receptive to the word of the authority system.

[QC]

244. Can you explain that old German woman with all those palaces and castles?

I've never quite understood that whole thing.

[Zix]

263. Yeah, she's an embodiment of tea and crumpets

And stoicism and counting pennies carefully and putting on a show when necessary and dropping all that silly rubbish when she wants a holiday.

Or something.

Actually she's there because she's there. There isn't a huge amount any of us can do about her... I bear her no particular ill-will, however..

[asdjrocky]

245. I'll explain the flag, if you'll explain royality.

Seriously, why have a Queen?

[Stinky The Clown]

246. So .... let me get this straight .... are you saying that you do NOT favor ....

.... setting the Queen alight?

:)

I just want to be sure I understand. :hi:

[Arkana]

248. Thank the Republicans for the flag wankery.

[Mendocino]

250. Now the Union Jack had a purpose,

Tony Blair used it to wipe off his mouth after kissing the ass of George Bush.:)

[Zix]

261. Yer not kiddin'.

We can still smell it...

[Orsino]

255. We use it to wrap traitors, mostly.

Because fish 'n' chips never really caught on here.

[datasuspect]

257. we derive these theories of pride from our british ancestors

who seem hung up on flags, the past, and national pride:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_flags

[Zix]

268. Now, now! That won't wash.

You don't need the British to tell you what to think and feel unless you're abdicating all responsibility for yourself.

[Skittles]

259. so says you

my mum lives outside Chicago and has Union Jack/Royal Family stuff all over her freaking house; yes INDEED

[Zix]

266. Oh. Well, hm...

Because it's your mum, I can't really say "OMG one of THEM," can I, even though a just did, sort of, in a sneaky way, sorry about that...

They are VERY RARE in the UK. VERY, VERY.

[Skittles]

269. she's 80, a WWII bomb survivor

maybe that makes a difference; who knows

[Zix]

271. More than possibly....

I retract my non-statement...

[Mari333]

264. you are right, I never saw such silliness when I was in the UK or Ireland

I have no idea why people here do it. some kind of nationalistic jingo, because no one knows where they come from.

[William Z. Foster]

270. the American flag

Since US nationality is not based on ethnicity, but rather abstract ideas, symbols take on a greater importance.