Ah frustration

[nadinbrzezinski]

Mostly frustration with the American scientific illiteracy. Also with the lack of knowledge of how things truly work in the real world and falling for the press meme of inaction. There is also a lot of frustration with how emotion matters and fact don't.

Now here is the thing. Why is BP in charge of the Cleanup? Because the US Law passed by a US Congress and signed by a US President says such. It is not because they chose to do this. Frankly they should not, and this should have been done by the Feds, while BP pays for all of it.

Why are the ones still at the drill site? Same thing... US Law... and truth be told in that case your choice is limited to insert oil conglomerate here... we don't have the expertise... at the Federal Level. Should we? Absolutely, but we don't. Facts are pesky I know.

But this has not been federalized!!! Yes it has... the INCIDENT COMMANDER works for you and me... he is the Coast Guard Commandant. I do get it why this is hard to understand, unless you have worked within the incident command system, it be hard to get. But he is the man in charge of this, not the BP President.

WHY IS OBAMA NOT SHOWING ANY ANGER!!!!! As a former rescue worker I actually applaud him for NOT screaming and showing emotion. Might not be popular but emotion ain't good in the middle of a disaster, cool detachment is what you want. Granted, crying over this is a normal reaction. Feeling despondent is also understandable. Please do carry on, as long as you don't have to actually deal with it. Letting emotion take over will get somebody killed, that is a lesson I was taught as an 18 year old when quite frankly I lost it. Thankfully I did not lose it where I could get somebody killed, but you get the picture. So as long as you have nothing to do with the actual response please do let emotion rule your life. But realize those who have to actually deal with it cannot afford emotion to enter into the picture.

Now to the Media... you have fallen for it again. Is the US Navy on site already? Yes... but you'd have to use the google to find out. If you watch the MSM the meme is they are not doing a thing. Is the Coast Guard running skimmers? Same thing, not that CNN has told you. And the meme of government inaction continues unabated and you buy it hook, line and sinker. Yes they do have an agenda, and that is that government does not work... why well... I don't think I have to explain this to you, or perhaps I do. I am not sure any more on that. I mean they do it, predictably, every fucking time and you fall for it, every fucking time.

Is this a good response? Perhaps not, but if you want change here is what you have to do....

CONTACT you members of congress and demand, nicely if you must, that they change the LEGAL background that everybody is working under. I know this ain't popular but we are are STILL a nation of laws, and quite frankly I prefer it that way.

CONTACT your members of Congress and DEMAND, if you must nicely, hearings on this. No, this is not unprecedented... see Ixtoc I. And this happened because of the environment of lack of regulations over the last administration, which partially continued to this. Yes we have a right to learn of this, and to learn who paid who... but screaming about it will not do a tinker's damn of a difference.

But getting pissed ain't gonna get you a thing. Nor is not getting it. What is unprecedented about this are the depths and pressures they are working under, by the way. And no, we do not have the equipment in government stock or trained personnel. So as I used to tell my people... and this applies here, like ANY OTHER DISASTER, man made or not. At times what you have are a choice of BAD choices, one worst than the other. So a faustian choice is a faustian choice... and in this case who do you hire to try to deal with the mess? See US Law, as to why BP is still on scene. You want that to change... call Congress. Oh and when you do, try to leave the emotion capped for five minutes.

Oh and I have come to realize that facts don't matter... and Jacoby is very right. This is a nation of willfully, and proud of it, ignorant people. This war on facts is irrespective of party affiliation or political believes. Facts really don't matter. And you know what? It is damn frustrating.

Nor do I expect this post to make a tinker's damn of difference, but speaking of emotion, it makes me feel better, so THERE!

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. This is not about the Obama Bashers

it is a culture... as I said, don't matter what political affiliation is at hand, or who is President... facts don't matter, emotion does.

[redqueen]

6. Advertisers know this.

That's how they and the M$M are so consistently able to play the vast majority in the audience like a well-tuned fiddle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Of course they do

they have tuned their skills in since Barnays, but they do. Why these days people buy life styles, not coffee, and an attitude, not tennis shoes. What do those two have to do with the present crisis? Both depend on our black gold civilization to continue.

[mzteris]

30. Dirty Laundry

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something, something I can use
People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry

Well, I could've been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don't have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear, give us dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em all around

We got the bubbleheaded bleach-blonde, comes on at 5
She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die, give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation? Is the head dead yet?
You know the boys in the newsroom got a running bet
Get the widow on the set, we need dirty laundry

You don't really need to find out what's going on
You don't really want to know just how far it's gone
Just leave well enough alone, keep your dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're stiff, kick 'em all around

Dirty little secrets, dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie
Love to cut you down to size, we love dirty laundry

We can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing
When it's said and done, we haven't told you a thing
We all know that crap is king, give us dirty laundry

[Scurrilous]

2. Great post.

K & R :thumbsup:

[redqueen]

3. K&R

[Jennicut]

4. Good post. Frustration and anger are understandable but

the depths are the biggest problem here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Here is what scares me

this well is not the deepest.

We are at peak oil, and that is a pesky fact people don't want to face.

[Jennicut]

10. Oh, not by a long shot. The Tiber Oil Field is over 35,000 deep in the ocean floor

though only over 1,000 feet below the water. There are very deep wells. The many Perdido wells are 14,000 feet below the seafloor are about 8000 feet below sea level.

We are at peak oil because finding oil is getting much more difficult.

[chowder66]

8. A kick for Reason and Logic.

[tandot]

11. K & R

[yellerpup]

12. Thanks!

You laid it out very clearly. :kick: & Rec.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Thanks look bellow for the answer

[yellerpup]

22. I'm assuming that you mean by "look below"

that I should call my congressional representatives and demand action in changing the laws pertaining to emergency. I shall. I am happy to do whatever I can in service to all (and when I say all I mean all species) who are suffering from this disaster. Don't lose your edge. :kick:

[happy_liberal]

59. "look bellow"

from the self proclaimed scientific expert?

[ljm2002]

13. Ah condescension

We're all scientifically illiterate, have a lack of knowledge of how things work in the real world, and are falling for press memes. Oh, and we're being emotional and not fact-based.

All that in the first short paragraph of a long post.

I will speak for myself here.

Regarding being scientifically literate: What is your degree, Nadine, if I might ask? Mine is computer science. Along the way I took enough extra math, chemistry, and physics that I had to scramble to get the requisite breadth requirements. My first job out of college, that lasted over 5 years, was with a pioneering biotech firm. My children still joke about my dreaded monologues on the number pi. I keep up with scientific developments and have a huge investment in and respect for the scientific method. So no, my criticisms are not stemming from scientific illiteracy.

Regarding how things work in the so-called "real world": Having been on this planet for over 6 decades now, I have done a number of things including: participated in antiwar demonstrations against the Vietnam war as well as both Iraq invasions; worked as a secretary for various organizations including legal offices and the Agency for International Development; worked as a house painter; worked with various peace action organizations; worked for corporations big and small in the software industry; worked as an independent contractor; have been married and divorced and have raised three children. I believe I might have a bit of a clue about how the "real world" works. One clue is this truism from Daniel Schorr, an estimable investigative reporter from days of yore: "Governments lie".

Regarding press memes: Certainly there are plenty of examples of the press's malfeasance and their willing role as propagandists. Some in the press may have ulterior motives as they criticize the federal response to this disaster. Nevertheless, I believe that, while the government has taken action, what they are doing falls short. Particularly in the area of coordination of the cleanup efforts and in letting BP run roughshod over the whole deal. Sorry -- if the Coast Guard sees their role as an adjunct to BP, I will complain. Anyway, you cite some laws but not others. The Emergency Powers Act, the Clean Water Act, to name two that have been cited here on DU, belie the government's legal helplessness.

Regarding emotion: Yes my response is emotional. It is also fact-based. Having both of these aspects used to be recognized as part of being human. I am not a robot, nor do I aspire to be one. I believe emotion is a necessary driving force in the species. As Will Pitt phrased it, "Anger is a gift". Yes, it is: it makes us demand action, rather than tolerating bullshit.

At any rate, you might try getting off your high horse once in awhile. You have lots of good information to offer; however, as noted, that one paragraph intro perfectly illustrates the meme of the elitist liberal who thinks she is better than everyone else. Just a thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Stay with the emotion

and try to understand that my degree insofar as disaster response actually involves RUNNING the ICS.

As to lack of knowledge or understanding, yes there is a lot of that going on, deal with it.

As to how the real world works, yes governments lie and your point? In this case they SUCK at PR... but they are doing MORE than you think they are... but there is media malfeasance, you dealt with it. Realize that the concerted effort as to nothing being done is agenda driven. Same goes for many Republicans, including one bobby Jindal, who are screaming right now... (And yes they are right to scream, but it is curious that they are doing it)

Now here is a free hint. Pick up the phone and CALL your congress critter and DEMAND, yes DEMAND the law that every body is working under be changed as EMERGENCY legislation. Yes they COULD do that...

And yes be as emotional as you want to be. I don't give a damn

As to condescension, guilty as charged. I've had it with the willful ignorance. A lot of what is going on, you know like actually going on, takes all of ten minutes on the google to find out. There is no intellectual curiosity here to find out who's lying and how badly.

Yes be critical, but at least be critical with information at hand, not emotion and not propaganda.

[ljm2002]

16. You say, "they are doing MORE than you think they are"...

...and how, pray tell, do you know that? You don't. You are assuming that because I am critical of the response I don't know as much as your highly-informed self about the actions that have been taken.

I asked about your degree specifically because of your remarks on how scientifically illiterate we are, implying that those of us who are critical of this response are just ignorant. I understand that you do have specialized knowledge that is very applicable to disaster situations, and I consider it very valuable and am glad that you share it with us. No need, though, to talk down to everyone.

My complaint from the get-go has been in regard to the leadership and having our Chief Executive not take that role upon himself in this situation.

As for emergency laws: there are already laws on the books that can be used. I cited two and you made no response to that. Instead the administration uses the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 as a fig leaf on why they simply cannot order BP, a hallowed "private company", to do anything. All they can do is ask. Right. I believe that.

As for calling congresscritters and the President, already done, although not to ask for emergency legislation (see above).

As for "governments lie", my point is that this one is no different. I'm not saying the Obama administration lies more than others; in fact I believe they lie less than most. But lie they do, and one way they do it is to pretend they have no legal avenues to take control of this situation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I know because I have that intellectual curiosity

and know how to use the Google.

You could too.

And yes I am being on purpose, condescending.

Oh and your last point... I suggest you use the google and find the legal reasons why BP is in the loop still... start with the Valdez and the legislation that came out of it.

And no I will NOT post links again to the many sources I have posted on this... it is time for you to do your own google searches or not. I don't give a fuck at this point.

[ljm2002]

20. Lame.

I guess no one else knows about the Oil Pollution Act of 1990. You still have not addressed the National Emergencies Act or the Clean Water Act. I guess that's because you don't know how to use "the Google". Or maybe you're just lacking in intellectual curiosity.

I didn't ask for your links, don't need them, and as per your parting remark, well I guess that says it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. And I should bow to your emotion and expertise

got it.

[ljm2002]

26. I said nothing about bowing to my expertise...

...look, I'm not the one who started out saying "use the Google" and "I have the intellectual curiosity", that was YOU.

Geez.

And you still have not said word one about the National Emergencies Act and the Clean Water Act.

Lame.

[mzteris]

37. i'm a litte confused about what I'm reading -

The President of the United States has available certain powers that may be
exercised in the event that the nation is threatened by crisis, exigency, or emergency
circumstances (other than natural disasters, war, or near-war situations). Such
powers may be stated explicitly or implied by the Constitution, assumed by the Chief
Executive to be permissible constitutionally, or inferred from or specified by statute.
Through legislation, Congress has made a great many delegations of authority in this
regard over the past 200 years.


Does the parentheses of the above "other than natural disasters..." mean that these are exempt from the National Emergency Act?

I don't know, so I'm asking.

Or maybe you meant STATE of EMERGENCY?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Now that is a good question

Perhaps find the answer at Find Law?

Hmm...

I know FEMA is not responding to this... and that the superfund act will be used...

What I do know is that the Congress has surrendered a lot of their rights and responsibilities over the last 200 years.

Now you will keep me at the google for a while.

:-)

And I needed to go get a can of paint... oh well... need to brew coffee... or just plain out make myself a nice espresso drink

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Ok here are some of the answers

(And I should have paid attention at a college course, damn)

The whole response at the federal level is mandated by the

FEDERAL STAFFORD ACT
General. The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Act (“Stafford Act”) sets forth the statutory framework governing Presidential declarations of “emergencies” and “major disasters,” and the extent to which Federal resources may be utilized pursuant to such declarations.

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/events/051128_rolesauthorities.pdf

WARNING PDF... I am sure it is more than just this.

You may find this paper on FEMA use illuminating as well

http://people.bu.edu/areeves/papers/fema.pdf

Again PDF

Yes got the coffee brewed, I should be readying on labor and her history, but hey... you got my intellectual curiosity going

[mzteris]

47. you sound like me

go off on a tangent "looking stuff up" .. . and suddenly it's hours - days - later!

Thanks for the links.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. It is that intellectual curiousity

it will get you ever time... I got the PDFs so I guess I can go get the paint and read this in detail later.

:-)

I gotta get my wall fixed... in the bathroom

[ljm2002]

64. Here you go...

A thread entitled "Could Obama use the National Emergencies Act to take over from BP?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8391891

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/98-505.pdf

--snip from CRS1--
Under the Powers delegated by such statute, the President may seize property, organize and control means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the means of free enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens.
--snip--

Also this thread entitled "Oil Pollution Act - BP Liable for Costs of Clean Up - It does NOT put them in CHARGE of Clean up"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8411361

which is, as you point out, about the Oil Pollution Act but it does reference the Clean Water Act. The thread makes clear that the Oil Pollution Act makes BP liable but does not mandate they remain in control.

It also discusses the National Contingency Plan, yet another apparent way that the government could assert their authority to act.

My main point is, the administration keeps saying the Oil Pollution Act ties their hands. It does not. Now they may have other reasons for leaving BP in control - certainly we can surmise that as soon as the government takes control, BP will use that later to try and limit their liability. But that should be a secondary consideration IMO.

I am hoping that Obama's scheduled trip to the Gulf this Friday will be the beginning of a new phase in which he is visibly and strongly engaged.

[mzteris]

38. Clean water act -- or OIL Spill Emergency Management

http://www.epa.gov/oilspill/index.htm

or maybe even some others, too: http://www.epa.gov/lawsregs/laws/index.html#env

[Call Me Wesley]

24. May I humbly ask what's ICS?

The Google doesn't help me here. Thanks in advance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Incident Command System

[Call Me Wesley]

35. Kudos then for you running it.

I thought you were with the Mexican Red Cross.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes, but we used the ICS in many a situation

it entered Mexican Consciousness after the San Juanico Debacle and really became the standard after the Mexico City Quake in 1985.

When I trained in Emergency Operations that is the system we were taught, we trained under and we used for real in large incidents, like a flood, and small incidents... car crashes taking more than two ambulances to respond.

The beauty of it is how scalable it is... from five patients all the way to... well this.

here is a piece of trivia, you know what was our model back then for ideal response? FEMA... oh how far down the rabbit hole we've gone.

[Call Me Wesley]

39. Huh? I thought you said you were 'running' the ICS,

as in 'leading' it. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Or perhaps I'm just part of the 'willfully ignorant' here. So you trained along ICS standards, is that right? You were not the Chief Commander of it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I was, during a flood

and I was at many major crashes.

I also was the triage officer in a few situations. Not a job I like.

Playing god is not a thing I like doing.

I also left behind a group of trained people who could become IC Head if called upon, aka be lucky to be on duty when the shit hits the proverbial fan.

[Call Me Wesley]

44. Playing god?

I'm not a Christian by all means, but that's some self-esteem there. No casualties under your command then, I hope? The Google rescued hem all?

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Funny

I actually declared a two year old while her grand father was transported to the hospital. But that is what triage officers do... decide who lives and who dies.

So all your jokes and needling to the side, it is actually quite serious.

I also got to decide what neighborhood got evacuated first... during that flood, and yes some people did die.

Sad part about disasters is that what you are doing is TRYING TO REDUCE the number of casualties or after effects, and at times you are left with pretty stark choices, I like to call them Faustian.

And no, back then we didn't have the google... though I did bring my laptop down, we used the early weather service maps for planning and operations.

[Call Me Wesley]

49. I'm not joking at all.

Well, 'the google' made me chuckle a bit I have to confess.

Honestly, your expertise in full respect. I'm fully trained in civil defense, A/C unit, Squad leader until retirement a few years ago. I wouldn't leave decisions up to you. You love disasters, and I hate them with all my heart. They make you feel important and big, and they make me feel small and angry.

Faustian choices? What, saving the poodle? I don't get it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Actually I hate them

but hey whatever trips your trigger.

And you were trained, I actually did it... slightly different.

[Call Me Wesley]

52. Oh my,

you just don't get it I guess. It's your trigger, not mine, but HEY WHATEVER. (I google it later.)

Ya know what? I'm going to watch 2012. I'll see if I can spot you there.

I salute you. End of communication.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Tell me what the Mayans got right

serious...

:eyes::spray:

[Call Me Wesley]

54. Oh, the :eyes:!

T'was a joke about 2012 (although I'm going to watch it and giggle all along.)

I don't see why you bash the Mayans per se here, though.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[ShamelessHussy]

50. thats how it comes off to me as well, and why i can't get past the first paragraph

folks who trivialize, demean, and snark legitimate concerns i have no time for

[TexasObserver]

56. Well said.

[smokey nj]

57. +1

[happy_liberal]

58. intro perfectly illustrates the meme of the elitist liberal who thinks she is better than everyone"

thank you for saying this

This person was also the self proclaimed expert on the Haiti quake, defending the lack of response. Damage control?

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Nah it illustrates frustation

but I am sure you don't get that. I could recommend some books, but why bother?

[TheKentuckian]

17. Laws are a flimsy and empty excuse for not securing the security, prosperity, and habitat

of the US and it's citizens.

Congress can make no law that abdicates the governments primary duties. The Constitutional authority and obligation to provide for our security can not be rendered null by any legislation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. CALL CONGRESS

but I suggest you google what law I am referring to, so you can at least tell your critters what needs changing. It mostly helps the staffer.

[tkmorris]

27. What law are you referring to?

Got a name at least?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Pollution Control Act of 1990

Damn There I go with facts.

http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/events/exxonvaldez/welcome.html

From NOAA

and it needs emergency changes.

[mzteris]

29. A-F'ing-Men!

:kick:

Logic is in short supply around here- along with Critical thinking. Critical reading. Comprehension. Understanding. FACTS. Hell, the abililty to use GOOGLE!


And for those of us who insist on a little intelligence with our rancor, we get accused of being corporate sellout shill obamalovers who doesn't give a damn about the disaster.



See my tagline for my opinion of most of these footstamping screamers. SO THERE!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. We don't teach it

and we want instant gratification. Anything that will counter that instant gratification is a problem.

Oh and great sig

[LeftyFingerPop]

31. This is a condescending slam against your fellow DUer's who have legitimate concerns.

Perhaps you should check your emotions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Nah it is frustration

but do carry on.

As to emotions, yes posting it made me feel better... and I do blame Jacoby and Hofstader for illuminating this aspect of American Culture. So this is truly a slam, not against DU... but American culture.

[inna]

43. -1 for misplaced condescension.

[TexasObserver]

55. Faux profundity.

[happy_liberal]

60. They are doing everything they can for Haiti....sound familiar?

What is happening in Haiti now? You seem to have inside knowledge. What happened to all the money that was donated and why are the people still suffering with little to no help?

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. I don't claim to have inside knoweldge

but the meme, that you and others swallowed, was that they were doing nothing. Sound familiar?

Here was the unfriging unbelievable footage on teh teevee machine today. Both Dylan Ratigan and Tweety were up in arms over US Government innaction. Behind them, in the footage, was a USCG plane actually doing something. You'd think the producers would catch that. On the other hand, they trust you will go with the words, and not lying eyes.

There is an agenda at play here... and you've fallen for it, line, hook, sinker, and fishing reel.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. This place was better before they started banning the violent drunks.

At least they were rational.

Now this place is overrun with illiterate, paranoid shitheels.

[HughMoran]

63. Amen

[ljm2002]

65. Indeed it is...

...although I suspect we might disagree as to the identities of said shitheels.

[TexasObserver]

68. I thought they asked us not to mention her any more.

Or did you mean the more recently departed guy?

[mcar]

62. Well said

You put it so much better than I could have. Thanks.:toast: