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Former Obama Advisors Call Out His Hedge Fund-Staffed Deficit Commission - Jane Hamsher/FDL

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 07:56 PM
Original message
Former Obama Advisors Call Out His Hedge Fund-Staffed Deficit Commission - Jane Hamsher/FDL
Former Obama Advisors Call Out His Hedge Fund-Staffed Deficit Commission
Jane Hamsher
Founder, FireDogLake.com
Posted: May 21, 2010 12:19 PM

<snip>

"Has Obama Created a Social Security Death Panel?" reads the headline. But it's not in the National Enquirer -- it appears atop an article in the Nieman Watchdog, the Harvard's journalism review.

Rhetoric like that is usually the reserve of unruly hippie bloggers, so it's notable that the academic world is talking about Obama's Deficit Commission in that way. Even more notable are the article's authors: Altman and Kingson both served on the Obama Campaign's Retirement Security Advisory Committee, and then on the Advisory Committee to the Social Security Administration Transition Team.


Altman was on the faculty of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, has taught at the Harvard Law School, and was Alan Greenspan's assistant when he chaired the commission that developed the 1983 Social Security amendments. She also served as a legislative assistant on Social Security issues to John Danforth, whose Danforth-Kerrey Commission was the predecessor to Obama's commission. Kingson was also a staffer on the Greenspan Commission, and was Social Security Advisor to the Kerrey-Danfoth Commission.

Alex Lawson has been livestreaming the closed door of the Deficit Commission on FDL. They have refused to conduct their deliberations in public, but the committee is stacked with enough votes to cut benefits. It takes 14 out of 18 votes to pass any recommendation on the committee, and there appear to be a sufficient number of votes to do so based on the past positions of individual members. So Altman and Kingson raise important questions, but to my mind, none more important than these:

Q. Why is the Commission apparently working so closely with billionaire Peter G. Peterson, who served in the Nixon administration and who has a clear ideological agenda?

Q. Mr. Peterson has been on a decades-long crusade against Social Security. The day after the first meeting of the commission, which focused heavily on the need to cut Social Security, the co-chairs and two other members of the commission participated in a Peterson event that reinforced the same message. A Peterson-funded foundation is supplying commission staff. And Peterson's foundation is funding America Speaks to develop a series of high-profile town halls across the country to host "a national discussion to find common ground on tough choices about our federal budget." (For more background about Mr. Peterson, see William Greider in the Nation on Looting Social Security -- Part 2.)

Note the buried lede: Pete Peterson is supplying commission staff.


One important lesson I learned from the health care fight: the health care industry had been laying the groundwork for this for years, and that should have been an early focus. It wasn't until the Gruber incident that I learned how the medical industrial complex had been working through foundations like Kaiser for over a decade to basically buy the academic underpinnings of their plan (and probably longer if you count the GOP/Heritage response to HillaryCare as its roots). They ran a nice back-and-forth between Congress, the White House, the CBO and Gruber to make it look he was supplying independent confirmation of the health care bill, when in fact it was all part of the same carefully orchestrated plan. It bought them a lot of credibility that they otherwise would not have had in the academic world.

Pete Peterson has been serving the same function on Social Security that Kaiser and others did on health care. From the Concord Commission to the Peterson Foundation, cutting Social Security benefits and diverting as much money as possible into Wall Street's coffers has been Peterson's holy grail. He himself was on the Danforth-Kerrey Commission, and was set to be the key note speaker at Obama's first fiscal responsibility summit shortly after the inauguration. After we reported it, the White House canceled him then denied he had been scheduled to speak, but Robert Kuttner subsequently confirmed it in the Washington Post.

The current budget deficit will be used to justify cuts to Social Security benefits, just as the surplus was used to justify cuts during the Clinton era. As Steven Gillon said the other day when he was here talking about his book on the secret Clinton-Gingrich deal negotiated by Bowles to cut Social Security in the 90s, Bowles is running the same play.

Peterson plays a huge role in the world that shapes the thinking that drives the commission. Bill Clinton simply gushed about him at Peterson's own recent fiscal summit. As long as Peterson is allowed to hide in the shadows and pull the strings, the choices that the Commission will make will come from a very small menu. Defense cuts will not be a factor. They won't be talking about the trillion dollars they could save over the next decade simply by expanding Medicare to cover businesses. They're only going to ask the questions that drive them to the same answer: cut Social Security.


It's going to be important to tell the tale of Peterson's inexorable march and diffuse the notion that the Commission is simply responding to temporal economic factors. This is class war, pure and simple. The rich against the poor. Hedge fund billionaires and defense contractors against senior citizens struggling to get by. Altman and Kingson have done us all a tremendous favor by opening up the discourse and asking important questions that need to be answered before the Commission makes its report on December. That's just in time to jam it through a lame duck Congress before the Christmas break, something both John Conyers and John Boehner have warned about -- and a repeat of what Bowles planned to do in the 90s.

It appears there are no new ideas. Just the long, patient plans of hedge fund billionaires who don't want to pay their taxes to dismantle the social safety net.

<snip>

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/revolt-of-the-wonks-forme_b_585005.html

If the Democratic Party attempts to cut Social Security Benefits... you might as well fold up that tent... forever.

:mad:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. We are so fucked. I really didn't need to read this tonight
Edited on Fri May-21-10 08:02 PM by Catherina
The oil catastrophe is bad enough.

By the time these crooks are done, ordinary people will have nothing left.


WTF! You just posted this and I recommended it but it's at 0! I guess some people here don't care that others will be homeless or hungry. :wtf:
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. K&R
for you
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Thank you
:hug:

That's the nicest thing I've heard all day. Thank you sincerely.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. You are most welcome
I am sorry your day is not going as planned for you. Perhaps the weekend will be better.:pals:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. My day would have been going so well without all this dreadful news
but it's impossible to ignore the gushing catastrophe in the Gulf and the rightwing drift we're on. When people here unrec important posts because they're more concerned with Obama's fracturing image, it's disheartening because you realize how the party has been hijacked by people who don't want old time democrats or fucking retards (take your pick) to realize the truth until it's too late. :pals: Thank you. People like you on this site make it better automatically because it's proof there's a chance things can be forced to change.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yep... It Feels Like A Giant Slow-Motion Chess Game...
and we are about to be "taken".

:shrug:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Oh, Jane And I Have Been Feelin The Hate Here For Some Time Now...
But it's OK... the haters almost always get outnumbered by great DUers.

;)

:hi:
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Jane is on point
one of the few that I trust for the truth of what is really going on.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Me Too Raine, Me Too...
:hi:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. Consistently on point.
She is trusted because she doesn't let party favors sway her opinion. She has integrity.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. I'm sorry about that.
Edited on Fri May-21-10 08:23 PM by Catherina
I like Jane too. She's been right on point all along as Raine said.


Nice to meet you.

:hi:
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. Not from all of us
Keep the truth coming! It's time to take back the party!

:loveya:
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yup we are royally screwed. nt
:-(
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm going to guess the unrec squad
don't know much about Peterson.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. LOL... I'm Gonna Guess That They Don't Care To Know...
:evilgrin:

:hi:
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I left a few hints in this thread last nite:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x307685

Dean Baker is one guy who has been watching this guy's moves like a hawk for a long time.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Most Excellent Hints !!!
:bounce:

:hi:
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. One more, Willy T - a profile that pieces things together
in a very interesting way.

NCI - National Corruption Index.org



Peterson, a strict fiscal conservative, has profited off some of the biggest financial scandals in American history. He is a founder of the Blackstone Group, an investment management firm that’s been involved with American International Group, Inc., Enron, and Global Crossing.




details:

http://nationalcorruptionindex.com/pages/profile.php?category=individuals&selectcats=any&pagenos=5&checkview=1&profile_id=80

He is old business buddies with Kissinger.

:hi:

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Very Cool !!! - And Thanks Again !!!
:hi:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. I just want to say that your posts are always so informative
This does not surprise me. There is a pattern emerging, the privatization of every public fund and I believe that it is Obama's job to tackle this one, one of the last they have not managed to get their evil hands out.

I hope this will be all-out war between them and the people. But it will take education. They are good, they have millions of dollars and an excellent salesman in the WH this time. Bush couldn't get this job done, although he did get their wars going and he torture business practically legitimized.

I knew they'd wait until after the November election as they expect a fight. This needs to be broadly publicized so that people are not taken by surprise. And the media is not our friend. So, how to do it?

They are determined to destroy all social programs, but they want the funds for Wall St.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Thanks for nice words, sabrina. That last link is just an amazing
Edited on Sat May-22-10 11:25 AM by chill_wind
collection of information (and good writing). It's not a new site, but it was new to me, and if people don't want to take Jane Hamsher's word about the guy, maybe they will dismiss these guys a little less easily. They are all from CJS:

All those involved, other than myself, hold Master’s degrees from Columbia Journalism School, working writers and reporters trained to pan fact nuggets from opinion dust.


http://nationalcorruptionindex.com/pages/about.php

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. You're welcome, I meant it. Thanks for that link,
I've book-marked it. This guy, Peterson, his name needs to be on everyone's radar screen before they begin to try to do this. These secret meetings etc. are an affront to democracy. I have little doubt that they are going to have it all ready to go, the lobbyists are probably already hard at work, and all that will be needed is the show they put on for the public.

Thanks again for the link and for all the research you do. I learn a lot from posts like yours :-)

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Wow, great resource! Thanks chill_wind. :) nt
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. My pleasure.
:hi:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. WoW!
What a great website. I spent a couple of hours over there.

Our entire gov't is corrupt...the whole system. WASF.

Think I'll go watch 'V is for Vendetta' again. Such a happy ending!
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. One of my old favorites-- Russ Kick's "The Memory Hole".

http://www.thememoryhole.org/

His updates have been sporadic the last couple years, but there's still a huge repository of FOIA and much other stuff rescued from the MSM memory hole/sanitizer/gatekeeper apparatus. AND-- it looks like he's just recently returning and revamping the site, from a post he just entered on May 22. Talk about getting lost on just one site for hours ..
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. Dean Baker catches a lot of shit from posters on Common Dreams.
Whifs of orchestration, IMO.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Guess this is the CHANGE we can Believe in?
Edited on Fri May-21-10 08:07 PM by Donnachaidh
All those SS recipients now get to wear I'M A SAP That Voted for CHANGE across their foreheads while they live in the ever growing tent cities?
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Just like OBAMA takedown of the educational system-Race to the Bottom-$$$
Another huge $$ pot- Michigan is a good example- the "Billionaires" are involved in education too - Broad, Gates are all over it- training superintendents and doing the money bribe thing, the support thing. It truly is a hostile takeover of "failing" schools (all of Detroit and loss of local control) with hyped inequitable standards designed to privatize and bust districts, teachers...THE ONLY ACCOUNTABLE PROFESSION .. OR SO IT SEEMS...given there is no accountability for the corrupt politicians bought off by corporate, or the wall street crooks, or the terrorists of big, unregulated oil destroying our environment.

Turn the pols out on the streets- give these people the door. All incumbents out. WE need to protest bigtime folks. Social security isn't a joke to most people. The very idea that Obama sets this up is enough to sound the alarm- the guy is doing real harm to our people when he favors and speaks for the rich. Don't vote for him again. It won't make any difference from what we have seen him do to our America.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. No, it's Change we can make believe in.
Edited on Sat May-22-10 06:24 PM by Dr.Phool
I thought Bush was limited to two terms.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. There's No Place Like Hope, There's No Place Like Hope...


:evilfrown:
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. And the hits just keep on coming.
This shit has turned into a fucking nightmare.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. John Kerry is using Peterson's institute as an endorsement
on his own website. It's amazing to see his name being touted here, even indirectly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x307685

How in the hell did this guy get such an inroad into Dem politics?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Kerry looks soul-sick now.
Maybe he always did and I never noticed it before but he definitely does now.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. What is "soul sick" Kerry seems happy working on issues that he has passionately pursued for his
entire life. I have never seen another politician, so focused on doing what is good for the country and world - in spite of all the attacks on him.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Look at the pictures of him and Lieberman re the climate bill.
He is not a happy camper and there is really no reason why he should be. If he was happy about the climate bill he'd be insane.
And this is not an attack, if you followed my posts you would know I am one of his supporters.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I do know that
and though he has been incredible in pursuing this, I think it has to bother him to see how petty many of his fellow Senators are and unwilling to take the serious steps needed. He has gone as far as meeting with Pickens.

Not to mention, as a real environmentalist, he is more aware and likely cares more about the oil spill than any who are exploiting it.

But, on the SFRC, he still is same purposeful Senator he has always been.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. This guy has been known for YEARS as a privatizer
How, indeed, did he get his nasty carcass in the Democratic Party?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. Well, the institute has some interesting members
Board of Directors
Laura D'Andrea Tyson
Paul A. Volcker


Advisory Committee
Paul R. Krugman
Joseph E. Stiglitz


Research experts
Simon Johnson


Visiting fellows
Nouriel Roubini

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Kerry is listing all kinds of studies and analyses that find positive
results for his bill.

The study itself is legitimate and the description of the jobs backs what Kerry has said since 2004. The fact that Peterson is a Nixon Republican is not a negative here. Kerry needs to get some Republican votes. This is harder than healthcare was as there are some very unhelpful Democrats - including DU favorites - like Feingold. Many of them join the Republicans to prohibit the use of reconciliation.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. In the 1930s, the banks stole the land from all but relatively few small, family American farmers
The farmers moved to the city.

When the farmers lived on the farm, they could, as they aged, find some way to eke out a basic survival from their own labor on their land.

Aging workers in the city were not wanted. Employers did not want them. Yet during their lives, they had not earned enough to save for their elder years.

So, to replace the security the American families had when they worked on their farms, FDR created Social Security.

Americans have forgotten that they used to actually own land that they could sell for income or live on until they died. So now, it is safe to finish the job that was started in the 1930s. Elderly Americans are to be left with absolutely nothing but hunger and bad health in their final years.

That's the plan. That's been the plan for a long time.

And don't tell people to save. How much interest do you get on your savings right now?

And don't tell people to invest. The stock market is rigged. What else is there to invest in other than Treasury Bonds that also have limitations.

This is theft. Embezzlement. And it started a long time ago.
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Looting the United States- rampant corruption. Street Protests. A Wall. Answer: France and Greece.
Regard the opposition. Americans need to get in the streets and stop this sell-out. What kind of country are we anyway? Other than a joke to the rest of the world. We can't even stand up for ourselves?????????????????? WE need to walk the talk. At their rate of takeover they are counting on us to be distracted and disadvantaged with little resistance. The boldness now is astonishing.

The country they are seeking to create for corporations is an ugly America- where corporations are unregulated and can do whatever they want. Libertarian corporate? The individual is of no account. The new America is an unregulated corporate empire. There is the right of free business and no rightsto freedom for the individuals they trample. Really ugly. Why aren't they embarrassed ? They must all be sociopaths and sadists.

Vote em out. All of them. Then protest. What else?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Taking Social Security from the people who paid into it is stealing. Period.
They've stolen everything else, now they're going for the "lockbox". Because somehow hoovering up almost all the money and resources in the world and soiling the planet is still not enough to make them feel like masters of the universe.
Putzes.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. This just confirms what I've been saying for a long time now


This man is an impostor! The REAL Ron Reagan Jr. was switched at birth and is presently...

Hang on, there's someone knocking on my door.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. The deficit terrorists pull the strings on puppet Obama.
Someone told me this week that those who benefit the most from welfare, affirmative action and other progressive policies are often among the most eager to want to dismantle the very system that lead to their success. I wonder what the psychology behind that is.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. I couldn't be that all eyes are on the catastrofuck in the gulf while the deploy this shock and awe?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Sadly it is but it's not going to work. Too many of us are paying attention n/t
Edited on Fri May-21-10 11:15 PM by Catherina
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. I don't know how much paying attention matters these days. I've been paying attention for
many years now and it hasn't helped much. :hug:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. They are trained to take advantage of this sort of situation.
Leo Strauss, Milton Friedman, University of Chicago-style.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. Yeah that group.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Disaster capitalism strikes yet again. nt
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
31. K&R
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
32. Our betters have no need for Democracy.
We see their solution for their gluttony and personal enrichment through the Wall Street Bailout, disaster capitalism, crony fiscal policy, self aggrandizing warmongering imperialism is to shaft the 99-percent of us known as the have-nots.

There isn't even a pretense for serving We the People any more. No wonder Social Security won't be around when we retire. They will have stolen that, too.

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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Then we need to start actively voting those *betters* out of office
I know it's probably going to be met with huge resistance - but if we cannot get representation from these *elite* types we need to replace them with people from the working class.

It CAN be done - we need to organize.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. I hate grammar freaks but really, you mean "betters" with a heavy dripping /sarc tag.
First time I've ever felt the need to correct octafish, I feel bad about it. :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. kick
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. K&R
To coin a question from the not too distant past, 'where is the outrage'? :banghead:
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