re: Rand Paul being a racist... here's the thing. When the subject is abortion...

[redqueen]

well, that conflicts with his beliefs, so... obviously, he's willing to not be so libertarian when it comes to that issue.

When it's racist policies... well... ummmm...

So... yeah... if racist policies don't conflict with his beliefs ... then it follows that he is indeed a racist.

[WeDidIt]

1. I've been making that same point

Claiming a racist stance because of Libertarianism is simply a convenient excuse for racism.

If he were true to his Libertarian arguments, he would oppose regulation of abortion vehemently.

[redqueen]

3. Exactly.

I don't see how this isn't completely obvious.

Am I missing something?

[dchill]

2. Ding ding ding...

Exactly. "Libertarians" are for utterly subjective legislative power. I call it one-way socialism.

"Keep your socialist hands off my Medicare."

[jobycom]

4. Perfectly explained. Thank you. nt

[el_bryanto]

5. That is an interesting point - there are ways around that particular objection

I wonder if he has addressed them?

Bryant

[Control-Z]

6. Yes, exactly. n/t

[secondwind]

7. I would think a good libertarian would want freedom for everyone, not just WHITE PEOPLE.

[blondeatlast]

8. Concise and crystal-clear. Well done; k&r. nt

[joeybee12]

9. Absolutely...says he's libertarian, is actually a Repuke...

keep government out of everything, except when it's to force your beliefs on others.

[notesdev]

10. FYI

There are many pro-life libertarians out there.

The pro-life viewpoint basically starts by saying that a human being exists from the moment of conception. The pro-life libertarian take on this is that that human being has liberties that ought to be protected from the beginning of its existence. It's a much more consistent point of view than the social conservative version which is based in religion.

As a pro-choice person with a strong libertarian streak myself I have seen this argument many times; agree or not, that's where they are coming from.

[redqueen]

12. Sure there are, doesn't change a thing. There are racist libertarians too...

and those are the ones saying it'd be fine to allow racist policies.

BTW - Just FYI
http://www.lp.org/platform

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

[notesdev]

14. Yeah the LP isn't really all that representative

That's the consensus of a pretty small group of people, most "small-l" libertarians are part of one of the two major parties. If you've ever seen the LP in action you would instantly understand that the people under that party banner have more than one screw loose on average.

[Marr]

11. It doesn't make him a racist.

But it does suggest that the Libertarians', "let the market fix it" line is really just a way of saying, "who gives a shit".

It means he wants 'the market' to solve all the problems he doesn't actually care about, and government to step in and enforce his will on the issues he does care about. It makes him supremely arrogant and intellectually dishonest, but not necessarily racist.

[redqueen]

13. Are people who don't care about racism not racists?

How can anyone not care about the fundamental unfairness of racism, without themeselves being racist?

[Marr]

15. I don't think they are, necessarily.

It's certainly no more noble, but I don't think it's quite the same thing.

[LanternWaste]

19. I think the toleration of a thing is...

I think the toleration of a thing is necessarily the de-facto acceptance of a thing.

[Prism]

16. Libertarianism is actually pretty mixed about abortion

Libertarians are just as capable of believing a fetus is a human being with inviolable rights as anyone else.

I know some stridently pro-life libertarians.

[uponit7771]

17. What about the government stepping in to stop a private business from giving an abortion?

[Prism]

21. If they consider it murder, it isn't hypocritical

And yeah, some libertarians do consider abortion to be a form of murder and violation of rights.

It's not a position I share, and I think Rand's point about private businesses has a very insidious pedigree:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=306581&mesg_id=307021

[blondeatlast]

18. Libertarianism is pretty mixed about a lot of things. they are no more immune from hypocrisy

as the rest of us.

[Prism]

22. Of course not, but on this point I don't see the hypocrisy

Libertarians claim to believe in the sovereignty and inviolable rights of the individual. If someone believes a fetus is a fully formed human with full rights, then the mother's reproductive choice is violating a fundamental right in their view.

I don't see the hypocrisy being claimed here.

[blondeatlast]

23. I do--at least three.

Can the fetus have civil rights?
Does the fetus's civil rights trump the civil rights of the woman seeking the abortion?
Luibertarianism is all about halting government interference in private affairs--who besides the government is going to decide whos rights (the woman's or the fetus's) prevail?

[Prism]

24. How are they hypocritical?

I think the problem is that, as pro-choicers, we tend to view the abortion issue through a very strong prism of a woman's inviolable reproductive freedom.

Pro-lifers don't see it that way.

They do believe a fetus has the same civil rights as a grown adult. I'm not sure how that's at odds with libertarianism.

When measuring a fetus' right to life vs. a mother's reproductive choice, for many pro-lifers, that right to life is supreme in the hierarchy of rights.

I don't think any libertarian thinks the government shouldn't interfere in something like murder. If you feel aborting a fetus is the taking of a life, it isn't against libertarian ideology to believe the government should prevent it.

It's odd to be having this conversation, because my strong pro-choice views were shaped and influenced by pro-choice libertarian essays about the limits of the power of the state on a woman's sovereignty.

[krabigirl]

28. Yep

[bullwinkle428]

20. EXACTLY - this is why those "at least he's a consistent libertarian"

people just PISS ME OFF so much!

When it comes to something like abortion, a GENUINE libertarian would make every effort to ensure that a woman had a right to choose the course of action at any point throughout the pregnancy.

[krabigirl]

27. Yes, i agree. Look at gary Johnson..he is pro choice. Ro

However, some libertarians like rand and his father think differently. Rand is the worst as he supports a federal BAN on it...not libertarian at all.

[krabigirl]

25. I agree, but libertarians differ on the abortion issue. His ideas suck

[redqueen]

26. The party platform leaves abortion up to the individual. (nt)

[krabigirl]

29. Yes.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Yup. Like most of his ilk. nt

[tbyg52]

31. Yep. I heard his dad once argue

that drugs should be legalized but abortion should be illegal in virtually the same breath. I nearly ran the car into a ditch. (It was the first time I had heard of, let alone heard, Ron Paul.)

[JI7]

32. i hear the same shit from almost all Libertarians

i would say over 80 percent of those who claim to be libertarian also support limits on abortion rights.

and probably 100 percent of these libertarians who oppose abortion rights are men.

[JVS]

33. Now he's gone on Laura Ingrahm to get bailed out from Maddow's interview

Suddenly he supports the civil rights act of 1964. :rofl:

[K8-EEE]

34. He's doing the "Mommy Rachel was mean to me thing" a la Palin

"Katie Couric thinks nobody in Alaska can read!" When they get desperate they act like the interviewer was so out of line, in reality both Rachel and Katie were professional and polite.

HEY GOP MAYBE PEOPLE RUNNING FOR HIGH OFFICE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE NON-SOFTBALL QUESTIONS WITHOUT FALLING APART AT THE SEAMS!