Defense Tech: Taliban Fear 155mm Excalibur “Finger of Death”

[unhappycamper]

Taliban Fear 155mm Excalibur “Finger of Death”
Apropos of our earlier post on precision guided indirect fire and the Army’s decision to cut its buy of Excalibur precision 155mm rounds, our own Christian Lowe checks in from his embed out near the Afghanistan-Pakistan border:

I spoke with an artillery forward observer with Angel Company, 3–187, at FOB Sharana the other day who told me about the few times he’s employed the Excalibur precision 155 round.

He said despite the infrequent use and the Army’s apparent lack of enthusiasm for the weapon, it sure makes a heck of an impression on the Taliban – so much so that they’ve derived a nickname for the round.

According to the artillery FO, radio traffic pulled from Taliban radio chatter indicates they call the Excalibur round “The Finger of Death.” When the FO told me this, he extended his index finger and pointed in a long arc right into the palm of his hand – showing that when they fire one of these, it hits exactly where they aimed it and kills everyone there.

We’re a little too far from the flagpole out here to slice and dice the internal debates in DC over this round. But suffice it to say the bad guys around here would prefer that the “Finger of Death” not point at them.



unhappycamper comment: The precision guided Excalibur is indeed a fearsome weapon. Look what you get for only $89,000 a round:

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. If history has proved anything, it is that technology will not defeat native guerilla fighters

willing to die for their cause. Sure, we can kill truckloads of them for years on end, but the simple fact is that these people are willing to die fighting us and that evens the odds considerably. The Afghanis will simply adapt and not group together in the open to provide targets for these rounds. How effective are they then?

[AllentownJake]

2. Evertyime you kill one, 2 more spring up

Generally family members pissed off you killed a loved one seeking revenge. You invade my country and kill my Dad, son, brother, or uncle, I'm inclined to want to kill you.

When you kill a civilian you create even more. You kill my Mother, Sister, daughter, or aunt...I really want you fucking dead.

[The Straight Story]

17. You can't destroy a belief system with war, just ask the Romans about those Christians (nt)

[greencharlie]

26. Reply #1, #2 and #17...

+1!!!!!!

[Dr.Phool]

3. Fleas hate Frontline!

Right out of the sales manual.

[old mark]

4. The old standby "dumb" 155mm round is no slouch, either....and it costs

a lot less to use.

mark

[FarCenter]

5. Various sources put the cost at $80,000 to $50,000 each

Approximately one teacher's annual salary every time one is fired.

[BrightKnight]

36. .

[lefty2000]

47. Or the salaries of 5 privates n/t

[wmbrew0206]

8. Yes, but how many do you have to fire to be able to fire for effect?

I'm an arty officer and have dealt with this round. (Never called it in, in theater). This round allows an FO to fire one round and have it hit right where he calls for it, without having to bracket the target and then fire for effect. So instead of firing between two to four spotting rounds and the six rounds when you fire for effect, you only have to fire one round.

[Statistical]

9. Yup Yup and that is a huge advantage.

First strike capability without any warning.
Enemy realizes he is under attack when there is a one-five-five knocking on the front door.

Of course is target isn't neutralized on first round you can always follow up with conventional battery fire after that.

[old mark]

10. I bow to your superior knowledge - my experience with 155's is

limited to having them pass well overhead going somewhere I am not...They are very impressive.

mark

[alfredo]

18. In late 69, early 70 I made the powder for the 155.

It was dangerous work, but we did it. One night every one of us Vietnam era veterans got fired. We were escorted out under armed guard. No reason was given. We worked for Union Carbide in southern Indiana near Louisville. I think what it was, they probably got federal money for hiring us, and once they got paid they didn't need us. Same thing happened at Michigan Bell. At Bell they challenged our unemployment insurance.

[old mark]

39. I DO recall a program back in those days that gave tax credits for hiring

Vietnam-era vets - I believe I got at least one job form that myself....Then it expired and they went back to treating us all like shit again...but Congress could say; "We HELPED these vets - vote for us."
Reminds me of the "Bonus Army" after WWI....

Never seems to change much, does it?


mark

Former Sp4, 1/504 PIR

[alfredo]

44. We were seen as homicidal dopers by them. Maybe we were, but we served

our country and deserved to be treated with a measure of respect.

SP 5 USASA

[old mark]

50. "Homicidal dopers"- fuck, nobody's perfect.......

}(


mark

[pinboy3niner]

51. DUzy!

:rofl:

[alfredo]

53. Like it's a bad thing

[old mark]

58. Yes...everyone needs a hobby.......nt

[alfredo]

59. As long as the hobby doesn't need lubricant and a lawyer.

[Gaedel]

54. Vietnam Vet-Shot at and missed, shit at and hit n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. "Never called it in, in theater"

DU line of the day.

[wmbrew0206]

31. An important distinction to make these days!

[Recursion]

35. Only if you're running for Senate...

[Recursion]

22. Its purpose was counterbattery, wasn't it?

The idea being to home in on the radio transmissions of enemy (at the time acquisition started, Soviet) batteries. I mean, the ability to hit exactly where the FO calls is awesome, but the terrain has a tendency to mislead the FO about where "there" is.
s/f

[Statistical]

40. There is no homing device in this round.

It simply goes where "ordered to go".

Canon crew fires it like a normal "fire when ready" fire mission with the exception that the round is programmed with grid location of impact.

As the round hits apogee it uses GPS signal to compare its current location with target location. Then using moveable vanes essentially "steers" itself to correct its ballistics profile so that when it hits ground its GPS location matches programmed GPS location.

So assumming you have a good grid location. You can compensate for all kinds of errors (ballistic errors, gun crew errors, FDC plot errors, etc) and put a round exactly where you "order" it to go.



Like the house in this photo. Now obviously the round only goes where told to go. If you "tell" it to go to the wrong spot it is essentially single minded. It just constantly adjusts its flight profile to ensure it gets "there".

[wmbrew0206]

52. There was no system that automatically finds FO's through their comms

It would be pretty cool to be able to do it but technically there is no system that can do it.

Anyway, you still get better results trying to located the battery and destroy with counter-battery radar, then you would locating the FO.

[Gaedel]

55. You are thinking of the Copperhead

The target had to be "painted" with a Laser and the round honed in on the painted target. Primarily for anti-armor use.

[hatrack]

6. All we need to do is buy and deploy more, and then the Taliban will surrender!

Unless, of course, they don't.

:eyes:

[Statistical]

7. Artillery - The King of Battle.

"Artillery Conquers, Infantry just Occupies"


Of course military expenses are all relative.
$89,000 per round vs $500,000 cruise missile or $100,000 bomb dropped by a Fighter which costs $1.2 million per 100 hours in maintenance costs. Also conventional rounds (a magnitude cheaper) likely outnumber guided rounds by 1000:1.

Putting something inside a 10m circle at a range of 40,000 meters and you can't even see the circle and doing all that in a timely manner at a cost of less than $100 grand is impressive.




Far better ROI than the things DOD gives more funding too (super lasers, ICBM interceptors, stealth fighters, etc).



The best way to save money in Afghanistan isn't to cripple Artillery it is to not be in Afghanistan.

[pinboy3niner]

43. Impressive is right

To compare to conventional round, you'd have to multiply the conventional unit cost by 8 or 10 (for spotting and fire mission)--and with all that, conventional is still less accurate.

Don't knock "The Queen of Battle." Infantry and arty go hand-in-hand. And grunts sure appreciate any support that reduces risks before having to take the hill.

:patriot:

[ShortnFiery]

45. Of all the horrific scenes my late father faced during the three years he was on the front lines

in WWII, he feared artillery barrages the most. He told me that many soldiers, including himself, would eat all their chocolate bars before they went up front out of fear that they'd die. While the artillery was hitting their site, it was nothing but pandemonium and *sheer terror.*

Artillery barrages are non discriminate killers - truly evil. :(

[proteus_lives]

64. "truly evil"

Except when they save your life.

My you would feel differently if you been in battle and been saved by an artillery or air-strike. My father felt that way.

[greencharlie]

11. Imagine the PROFIT the munitions factory makes...

:sarcasm:

[wmbrew0206]

12. Imagine the safety it offers to FO's to not have worry about

having their position revealed by having to spot multiple rounds or by repetitive communications to correct spotting rounds.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Imagine all the collateral damage and increasing numbers of recruits for al Qaeda when rounds ...

often go astray and kills women and children? :nuke:

[Recursion]

49. Umm... the point of these is they don't go astray

Or at least, they go astray at astronomically lower rates than normal rounds. And that's a double advantage, since it also means you don't need to fire barrages in order to hit your target.

This is a weapon that makes civilian death less likely.

[gratuitous]

15. And how well we know what's going on 40,000 meters away

I mean, gee whiz, one of these babies can bullseye a target the size of a city bus 24 miles away, and there's just no way our star-spangled, freckle-faced, all-American fightin' men and women would ever send one off without knowing exactly what's going on in that city bus-sized area. Right? They'd never send out the Flying Finger of Death without being real sure it was just terrorists it was going to land on, right?

Because I know I couldn't live with myself if I shot something off that came down on, say, a bunch of kids about my grandchildrens' age. So it's real good that could never, ever happen, right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Did you read the OP?

Do you know what a forward observer is?

[gratuitous]

19. An infallible human being who never makes a mistake

And who relays his information flawlessly to another infallible human being who similarly never makes a mistake or enters the wrong data, and even if all that happens, the weapon is self-correcting so that it never, ever hits the wrong place? Which, as I say, is great! Right? USA, fuck yeah!

[Statistical]

27. If that is your minimum required standard you will kill yourself right?

I mean you there are lots of potential scenarios where your actions or inactions may result in the death of others.
You certainly will never drive a motor vehicle, operate heavy machinery, cook for anyone, do any house repairs, etc.

Your useless strawman aside the FO (or other observer) is the eyes. While the piece is located back 40km as a system there is an observer within range of the strike. It is no different than a locally fired weapon in that respect.

The entire loop is what creates the weapon system (observer - FDC - gun crew).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. So now that you've looked up what a forward observer is...

you're upset with a new weapon that lets them do their job with more precision?

[Recursion]

29. Certainly fewer mistakes than with a "dumb" round

Seriously? You're complaining about a weapon that reduces the danger to American troops and to civilians? This means no more ranging creep as the rounds fall closer to the target on top of whatever happens to be near the target. No more barrages for saturation (one 155mm round will flatten a brownstone and shatter every window for one block in each direction; a barrage is a dozen of those).

As someone said downthread, the solution is to get out of Afghanistan, not to get rid of equipment that the troops are using there.

[wmbrew0206]

32. It also corrects for gun crew errors.

This round can correct itself even if the gun crew does not give the right deflection and quadrant (elevation). If I remember correctly it can correct itself if up to 90mil in terms of deflection.

[Recursion]

24. That's why God made E-3's

"Here, Lance Corporal, go climb up on that ridge and tell me where to shoot. If we don't hear back from you, we'll know to elevate the barrel some."

[Gaedel]

56. Artillery FOs are Lieutenants n/t

[wmbrew0206]

34. There are these new things, I'm not sure if you have heard of them, they are called UAV's

The let you see what is happening on the ground to the point where you can recognize a cigarette being smoked and thrown out. They also give eight digit grid locations of targets, which is what is required for a 155mm round.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. Yay death!

ugh!

[ej510]

23. This is how I feel +1!

[Pavulon]

20. 155 is the grim reaper. combined with MLRS left tens of thousands in the desert

in kuwait. Regular old 155 is pretty effective and dare i say cheaper.

[ShortnFiery]

48. Hot damn that's super neat! If our tax dollars go to DEATH, let's give plenty to the 155 s!

:crazy:

[MicaelS]

21. In depth information over Global Security....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m982-155.htm

A smart arty round is a pretty damn scary thing, for those on the receiving end. Especially with the 37km+ range.

[BrightKnight]

25. It's probably cheaper than something like a Javelin or Hellfire.

Nobody is shooting at me. If the boots on the ground want it I would give it to them.

[Old Troop]

30. Hey! I served in the 3/187 Infantry.

[daleo]

33. It's all technically impressive

But how long can U.S. taxpayers keep putting themselves further in debt for the sake of war?

[wmbrew0206]

37. Agreed that there are wasteful DOD programs but this is not one of them.

The Excalibur is a tested and proven system that allows the boots on the ground a big advantage when it comes to indirect fire assets. On a cost benefit basis this system in one that the artillery community has been asking for and offers real world advantages that current enemies do not want to see.

There is a lot of waste in the DOD budget but this program is not one of them.

[Richard Steele]

38. So, the 155mm Excalibur contract is up for renewal, and this "report" is an ADVERTISEMENT for it.

If the 155mm Excaliber was even MODERATELY less than useless
the people who make it would have no reason to be mounting
this lame-assed propaganda campaign on its behalf.

The only realistic explanation for this "report" bringing it to our attention:
It's a piece of crap waste of taxpayer dollars that doesn't work.

Betcha a nickel. ;)

[Statistical]

41. LOL. You have no idea how procurement works do you.

The XM982 isn't flashy. It just gets the job done.

However Brass in Pentagon have wet dreams about stuff like ICBM interceptors (and their 20% success rates), airborne laser platforms, $100 million percision fighters, $20 billion aircraft carriers.

Stuff that works and is supported by boots on the ground rarely get the attention they deserve.
The round is negligible in cost compared to other precision weapon systems.

I think our military would be better off having one less F-35 and instead having 10,000 more of these effective artillery rounds.

[Gaedel]

57. The military services have two different enemies

They have the real enemy on the ground or in time of peace, the enemy "threat".

They also have the "bureaucratic" enemy which are other military and politicians trying to starve them of resources they think that they will need. The other military services (or branches of the same service) have their own "needs" which compete for a finite amount of resources.

[Richard Steele]

60. I know how BULLSHIT works. And I recognize it when I smell it.

[Prometheus Bound]

61. LOL +1

[Major Hogwash]

63. Fuckin' A, Richard!! Speak up, you're among friends! Welcome all comments.

We don't need any more rah-rah crap "sold" to us anymore.

I've just about had enough after we passed the 1000 dead soldier milestone in Afghanistan this week.

I'd like to give the muthafucka my own special "finger" who sent us into Iraq to begin with back in 2003!!!

Goddamn right, say your piece. Shit, we aren't going to get courtmartialed off of the friggin' forum!!

"What are they going to do, send us to Vietnam?"

I remember that phrase very well in the 70s!!

[lonestarnot]

42. Death in every crevasse and cranny.

[Prometheus Bound]

62. Pulled from Taliban radio chatter: "I've almost been hit by one of those mothers 5 times!"

They're a bitch if they ever hit you, but still not as accurate as my AK-47 - the real finger of death.