Baton Rouge Teacher Sues for the Right to Give Students “F”s

[The Straight Story]

Baton Rouge Teacher Sues for the Right to Give Students “F”s
Wednesday, May 05, 2010
(graphic: Islets of Hope)

Are fourth-graders too young to fail? Prevented from flunking her students, Sheila Goudeau of Louisiana is suing local school officials in East Baton Rouge for interfering with her duties as a teacher. Goudeau, a 20-year veteran instructor who teaches fourth-graders, alleges in her lawsuit that Shilonda Shamlin, the principal of Riveroaks Elementary School, ordered the faculty to not grade lower than 60%, in effect a “D.” She claims the restriction is a violation of a state law that forbids administrative and school board officials from influencing or altering grades given out by teachers.

Goudeau, who is now teaching at a different school, further claims that “illegal alteration of students’ grades misled the affected students and their parents into thinking they were passing and obtaining the required skills to proceed to fifth grade, when in reality those students were neither passing nor obtaining the requisite skills needed for the fifth grade.”

http://www.allgov.com/Unusual_News/ViewNews/Baton_Rouge_Teacher_Sues_for_the_Right_to_Give_Students_Fs_100505

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Right on!

This teacher is part of the SOLUTION, not part of the problem.

[roguevalley]

90. I retained my own nephew in first grade. You have to have integrity

or you can't do this job.

[Angry Dragon]

2. The dumbing down of American youth

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Good for her!!

Stupid principals are a huge problem in our schools. Three cheers to any teacher willing to challenge one.

[Daphne08]

18. "Stupid principals are a huge problem in our schools."

Excellent observation. :thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. LOL I could write a book

I've had more than my fair share.

[Shell Beau]

4. I remember a friend of mine telling me he couldn't give out Fs either.

When did this become practice?

Anyway he quit teaching because of parents not caring and the school not allowing him to really do what he felt he needed to do. He is a nurse now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Very common until about 10 years ago

Now not so much.

[WolverineDG]

When I was a teacher, we could not give any grade lower than 50

Used to really piss me off because many kids didn't care enough to earn even that. Then there was the whole "We don't do social promotion" (promoting a kid on to the next grade so s/he can stay with his/her peers) but then the teachers in elementary & junior high weren't allowed to flunk any kid at all. Soooo, by the time they got to high school, they were completely unprepared & ended up being discipline problems that the high school teachers had to waste time on instead of being able to focus on the kids who wanted to learn.

All so Little Johnny & Jill wouldn't get bad self-esteems. :eyes:

dg

[Posteritatis]

5. I hate the trend towards limiting lower grades

When I was at grad school in Ontario, there was a lot of pressure against the TAs not to give grades lower than 60% on any assignment under any circumstances (unless it actually wasn't turned in at all). Some profs extended that to a requirement, even for, say, a plagiarized essay which still managed to get every aspect of content and style wrong.

The one I was working for wasn't like that at least, despite pressure from the department towards her about it. There were a few times I was grousing about having to give one especially horrible assignment or another a grade of zero (which takes some effort when it's both turned in and not plagiarized, but in a 50-student class I had to do it a few times over the course of the various assignments), and oh holy hell did people blow up at me over it. "You're not allowed to fail students!" "You have to give them a 60 no matter what!"

It was depressing. The other TAs had no say in my grading practices and the prof (and, after some explanation, the affected students) were alright with things, but it was still depressing. People shouldn't need to get that kind of reaction at all, never mind actually have to sue for the right to say someone's work is unacceptable.

[rocktivity]

6. And turning a F into a D helps how?

Even a dumb fourth grader would STILL be able to figure out that he'd failed!

:shrug:
rocktivity

[Posteritatis]

7. If a student can't handle one grade level they have no business being in the next one up.

Keeping a student where they are until they're able to progress does help them.

[Winterblues]

9. When you reward failing students you cheat the ones that excel.

When a student is failing, parents need to be made aware of it as do the students themselves.. It does no one any good to fudge on grades..

[Quantess]

10. D is a passing grade. F is not.

An F implies that the class material has not been mastered sufficiently to progress to the next level.

[rocktivity]

14. DING DING DING! Quantess, you're our grand prize winner!

D is a passing grade...An F implies that the class material has not been mastered sufficiently to progress to the next level.

Which means their policy is to PRETEND that a student passed when he'd actually failed. To what end? And does the F student move on to the next level anyhow? What purpose does this policy serve for the students, parents, teacher or school? Is everyone supposed to feel "better" about themselves since the student didn't "really" fail?

:shrug:
rocktivity

[TK421]

58. I received numerous D's, and I knew I was "just getting by"

I agree with this teacher

[marshall]

88. The rationale at my school was it would keep the kids from giving up hope

We were not allowed to have a grade lower than fifty in our gradebook. Even if a kid didn't turn in an assignment, or turned in a blank sheet of paper, they had to be given at least a fifty on it.

The principal said it was so the kids wouldn't give up hope because they made zeroes during the first part of the grading week and had no possibility of pulling the average up to passing. It's easier to pull a fifty average up to seventy than to do it with a zero or even a ten or twenty average.

[rocktivity]

106. That's a copout. It's the students who ACTUALLY score a 50

who deserve the "reward" of the opportunity to end up with a passing average, but the policy effectively says that they're "zeros," too. Those who scored less should be given help, motivation, and most important, ACCOUNTABILITY--that's where their "sense of hope" will come from!

Its sounds more like the principal just didn't want a bunch of zero students on his "scorecard."

P.S. Did it work--for the students, I mean?

:crazy:
rocktivity

[marshall]

116. It really lowered teacher morale

I only had a two month substitute assignment there so I didn't see how it effected the long term in that particular school. But that was back in the early 90s, and it seems that the practice is veering away from this sort of grade weighting, so I assume the powers that be have abandoned the approach.

That's how things go in education. Somebody or some group comes up with some dazzling new way of doing things that will solve all the problems. It is implemented against the will of the teachers who are in the actual trenches. Then a few years later it's abandoned as impractical or ineffective.

[Brickbat]

8. Sixty percent is a D?

Not to get all "in my day," but in my day, 70 percent was a D.

[tonysam]

11. D-

It's been that way for years, depending on the school district.

90-100=A
80-89=B
70-79=C
60-69=D
Below 60 =F

[Brickbat]

13. Huh.

At my district, it was:

97-100 -- A+
93-96 -- A
89-92 -- B+
85-88 -- B
81-84 -- C+
78-80 -- C
74-77 -- D+
70-73 -- D
Below 70 -- Fail

Interesting.

[Shell Beau]

16. Mine too. Until I entered college anyway.

I loved the college scale.

[tonysam]

20. The college scale is what I had and it has filtered down to K-12

in a lot of places.

[tonysam]

17. It depends on the district. It isn't standardized across the board.

Get a clue.

[Shell Beau]

19. Jeez. Was that last comment necessary?

[tonysam]

21. Yeah it was because the poster seemed to think the way he or she had it

is that way all across the board.

It isn't written in stone.

[Shell Beau]

24. I didn't see that post as that way at all. I thought they were

just surprised because they didn't know it was different in some places.

[Brickbat]

28. I figured it was different in different places, just not THAT different.

[Brickbat]

26. Yes, I understood that.

My expression of disbelief came from the fact that getting less than 2/3 of the questions right on a test could somehow be seen as passing. Pretty much any cutoff is arbitrary, but a 60 percent passing scale seems to me to be part of the problem.

[Posteritatis]

30. District standards are all over the place

When I was in grad school the F line was 78. (And a lot of faculty refused to give grades higher than an 82. No pressure there!)

[Brickbat]

32. Ha! Interesting!

In one of my college courses the professor told us, "When I give grades on your papers, I want you to understand that a C paper is a pretty darn good paper. A B paper stands out in ways I hadn't thought of before. And an A paper changes my life."

As a chronic underachiever, I was ready for a bunch of C- papers. :rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

78. sounds like my old college history teacher

she said something to the effect that the majority of the class will be familiar with the material and that will earn them a c, those who get a b are intimately familiar with course materials, and anyone who gets an a was obviously there when it happened.

she was a right royal joker. and for the record i was one of only 3 students in the class to get an a. that was an interesting post-lecture chat if nothing else.... :evilgrin:

[roguevalley]

91. I had a prof who told me anything less than a b was an f and get out

of the class if you got one.

[wickerwoman]

102. Yep, my grad school was like that too.

A = good work
A- = pretty good work but you missed some points
B+ = you should have done more
B = you really should have done more
< B = you don't belong in grad school

[tallahasseedem]

114. My grad school was like that as well...

one C and you were put on probation, get another one and you're out.

[Brickbat]

111. I was accelerated into algebra as an 8th grader and got solid B's and B-pluses.

The teacher told my mom at conferences that because it was an accelerated course, everyone should be getting A's and I clearly had a problem. He was the main reason I got a mental block with math and had problems with it ever after, which is too bad. 25 years later, my mom still regrets not telling him off.

[Bill McBlueState]

50. i wonder how it's possible to construct *all* assignments

such that getting 70% of it right represents "barely passing."

What does it even mean to get 70% of an essay right?

Teachers should decide for each individual assignment what constitutes passing, average, above average, etc.

[TK421]

60. Really? 70 percent was a C all the way for me

even in Catholic grade school ( which was fucking harsh )

[tblue37]

86. I will be 60 in August, and I teach college.

I was an Air Force brat, so I attended school in many different states.

In my long and varied experience, 70%-79% has always been the C range.

[Yavin4]

12. Grades Are Not Necessarily a Negative nor Positive Thing

They're merely indicators of the learning process. An "F" just means that the student didn't perform up to an acceptable level. That could be because of learning disabilities or problems at home or some other cause. Better to identify the cause and make corrections rather than turn a blind eye. Conversely an grade of "A" is also not necessarily a positive thing. It may mean that the student was challenged enough and may benefit from a higher level of study.

We gloss over the bad and don't push hard enough on the good.

[TexasObserver]

22. Teacher is about to be taught a lesson.

Teachers are employees. They work for school districts, who set their standards for conduct of teachers within state and federal law.

Any teacher who thinks he or she has an unfettered right to determine grades shouldn't be allowed to teach anyone in public schools.

Any teacher who is giving 4th grade students grades under 50 needs her head examined.

[Posteritatis]

27. So fourth grade students are incapable of failure?

School districts don't get to say "nobody's allowed to do worse than a 50" any more than they get to say "nobody's allowed to do worse than a 95."

[TexasObserver]

36. You equate two things that aren't equal.

FAILURE is whatever the district says it is, not what some self important teacher thinks it is.

[Posteritatis]

44. And the self-important district is saying there can be no such thing as failure.

They're not redefining failure, they're forbidding teachers from recognizing failing students as failing for the same reason so many other schools refuse to do so.

It's purest bullshit, nothing more.

[TexasObserver]

54. It's the district's job to decide, not the teacher's.

The district is the political body of officials elected by the citizens to run the schools. Citizens do not want every teacher thinking he or she is an independent force in the district. They're employees, and if they won't do their job as instructed, they should be fired, like any other employee who won't or can't follow simple instructions by their boss.

[roguevalley]

94. I bet if you look at their grading standards, you will find f's. My stupid

district said no one could be retained even though it is in the books and part of the policy. its all about show. they don't want angry parents who can't get it that their kid is failing and everyone needs to DO something about it when teachers give f's. I gave f's. Turned around every damn kid I failed because they saw I meant it. I wasn't disrepecting them by pretending they were ok and i was ok with their lack of work and standards. But then, that is what's wrong with this fucking country now. no one is willing to hold to standards. George Bush's old man wouldn't allow him to have f's either and look what he turned into. AND WE ALL PAID FOR IT. Think about it.

[roguevalley]

93. self important teacher? Jeez. She's a hero telling the truth and some

people can't grasp it. that kid will grow up to be a worker and we have to assume they learned something along the way when we give them charge of our cars, house, bodies, etc. admins are the giant sucking sound that is killing education. self important. WTF?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

29. So if a kid isn't mastering the material....

He should just be promoted to the next grade so that he can fail there?

[TexasObserver]

37. 50 is a failing grade.

Students scoring 50 aren't going to pass unless that 50 is a rarity.

You base your comment on a faulty premise.

[Posteritatis]

45. Should a student who scores under a 60 be given a grade under 60 or not?

This isn't complex, much as you're turning it into a "the teacher is evil for grading accurately" game.

[TexasObserver]

53. That depends on what the district decides.

It's not your decision, and it's not the teacher's decision.

This isn't complex. It's not your decision.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. It is indeed the teacher's decision.

It's in the job description.

[TexasObserver]

71. Maybe in your district, but not in this one.

Any teacher who thinks they can prevail in such fight with a district is kidding himself or herself. Obeying your boss is in the contract, too. Any district with a teacher who refuses to follow such grading instructions should fire them, and if they can't fire them immediately, remove them from teaching and let them babysit the miscreants in detention.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. In every district I know of this is the policy

Teachers give grades and only the superintendent can change them.

A principal cannot tell teachers not to fail any students. It's unethical in the least. Violation of board policy in most school districts.

[TexasObserver]

74. It isn't in the school district in the OP, is it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Prove this is not their policy and you would have a point

I'm willing to bet it is.

[roguevalley]

95. george bush is from texas last time I looked and look what shit

standard practices produced in him. texasobserver, you get what you deserve when you don't hold to standards that I will bet dollars to donuts are in their policy manuals. I have read dozens of policy manuals from all over and no one would write no f's in their manuals. no one. and now we have a teacher attacked because she's doing her job and we all pay when we do.

[rocktivity]

107. A grade should reflect what the student EARNED

not what anybody wants to "give."

And if the student isn't producing up to snuff, the school has professional and moral obligation NOT to pretend otherwise.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[sinkingfeeling]

34. Baloney! If the kids refuse to do the work or are incapable of doing it, fail them. I think it's the

'administrators' and the school boards that have ruined education in this country.

[TexasObserver]

38. It's up to the district to determine what failure is, not some self important teacher.

The teacher is an employee. She has a job and the job is not defined by her, but by her employer. If she doesn't like it, she's free to leave. She can start her own school.

[sinkingfeeling]

48. You sound like a great supporter of administration knows more than the teachers and NCLB.

[TexasObserver]

56. The school district is the political body elected to run the district's schools.

Teachers are hired to teach. Their job is defined by the district. Any teacher who thinks their decisions override the district will soon be unemployed and looking for a new job.

Teachers do not run schools, and they're not supposed to do so. They're hired to do a specific job, and as with any job, the most important thing to remember is that you are an employee. You're not a boss of anyone or anything if you're teaching. You teach at the pleasure of the district, and if you fail to follow their instructions, you can and probably will be fired.

The citizenry runs the school district through their elected officials, and if a teacher doesn't like those policies, he or she can quit, or they can run for the school board, but they can't decide to impose their personal beliefs on the district.

[DeltaLitProf]

87. The school district has to obey state and federal regulations

There are plenty of those that bar principals from pressuring teachers to change grades.

[Bill McBlueState]

51. When I went to school, teachers did the grading.

Grading is the act of deciding whether work passes or fails.

[TexasObserver]

57. The district sets standards for grading.

Whether you were aware of such standards while in school is highly doubtful. And even if you're 100% right about that, so what? The district in question has already made its decision on this issue. They have said the teachers cannot give very low grades. Any teacher who doesn't like that can quit.

[Posteritatis]

65. Or they can fight to get the district to drop such a phenomenally fucking stupid policy.

The district is doing one of two things:

(1) They've decided it's emotionally crippling for students ever to hear that they did poorly, so they forbid it regardless of performance, or
(2) They are doctoring their students' performance by rewriting the rules in such a way that they can claim no student ever fails.

You seem convinced that these are good things, which seems to place you somewhere that's actually worse than the usual anti-education viewpoints on this site. If a school district says that a student who puts zero effort into class should automatically get a grade of at least sixty, everyone involved in that decision needs to go.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. And if the students fail to meet the standards, they FAIL

Teachers give the grades, not the district.

[TexasObserver]

73. Districts hire teachers and they fire them.

Districts give their "grades," too, and all those teachers who think they run the school should see the handwriting on the wall. It says "you're not in charge here, we are."

Districts place teachers in a class room, and they can remove them. Your school district could remove you from your classes tomorrow and assign you to watch delinquents, and that would be all the grading you'd get to do. A teacher who refuses to follow the district's grading guidelines should be fired. It's a simple concept. Any teacher who can't grasp it can find a new district to work in.

Maybe your district tolerates teachers telling the administration what to do, but most districts are headed the other direction.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. No they can't assign me to watch delinquents

I'm not certified for that job.

You're just being nutty. Several posters have tried to tell you in a civil tone that you are wrong. You need to admit it and move on instead of being silly.

[dsc]

85. would you go to a surgeon who passed from a school who behaved this way

[roguevalley]

96. I bet the grade standards are there and if you know something

we don't know, put it on this thread. if you know that the f's are forbidden at this district and it says so in the policy manual, find it and put it here. otherwise, you don't know.

[LanternWaste]

59. One person sees them as "self-important"

One person sees them as "self-important", while another may see them as conscientious.

I imagine we see what better validates our opinions...

[TexasObserver]

64. She's self important because her actions prove she is.

The audacity of a teacher suing a district, claiming SHE has the right to decide what grades are given in her classes. She's an employee. Do you let some emoployee at McDonalds decide they're going to make a BIG MAC the way they want to? No, you fire them if they can't grasp the simple concept of "it's not your decision."

[Posteritatis]

66. Right, she can't possibly be concerned about education or anything. (nt)

[TexasObserver]

69. If she's concerned with education, she can start with her own school.

If necessary, she should take a refresher course in reading comprehension, so she can read her contract and figure out who her boss is and what that means.

If a teacher doesn't like district policy, she has channels inside the district to let that be known. She may not simply ignore the district policy because she thinks she knows better. Teachers like her are the reason the district doesn't allow such teachers to singularly decide the fate of students. There are some bad teachers out there. Some are incompetent, while others are emotionally unfit to teach. This particular teacher in the OP is unfit to teach in public schools.

[DeltaLitProf]

89. Wow. I can tell you didn't have many good teachers . . .

. . . or else you'd have the moral integrity to understand there are people in the world who put principle before contingency. Not having any yourself, you assume anyone who makes a stand and makes sacrifices to honor a priniciple is showboating. You are in the wrong discussion group. There's another one for you.

[keroro gunsou]

79. sigh

the district decides the grading scale standard by which a grade is pass or fail. the individual teacher is charged with assessing if the work meets the requirements of the grading scale approved by the district.

if the district is in charge of grading then they should get off of their high-horses and grade the damn assignments.

apparently, not everything is big in texas.... :sarcasm:

[Dorian Gray]

108. LOL...

this is just silly.

The district, I'm sure, has policy regarding failure. I suspect what is happening is that policy is being ignored while the leaders encourage the teachers not to fail students for a few reasons. Those failures reflect poorly on the school, so not failing kids will make the school appear more successful. And it gets the parents off the admins backs.

[roguevalley]

98. I wish I knew what some of these educational experts did so I could

tell them all about my superior knowledge of their job/career. Yes, everyone is an educational expert. They all were in fifth grade once.

[DerBeppo]

39. Ed Code

The districts, administration, and teachers are all bound to the Education Code for the state. If the Ed Code or state law says "admin can't", then they can't. In that case it's as much up to the teacher to follow the superseding law as it is a dock manager to follow state safety protocol, even if his employer says not to.

[eppur_se_muova]

41. Zero effort should get zero credit, period.

No "50% right just for showing up".

Giving them 50% is FUCKING LYING, and there's no excuse for it. I never even heard of such a ridiculous thing until I read this OP. Guess I went to school back when grades had to be EARNED. Now they must be a birthright.

[MadHound]

47. Both traditionally and still in most of the school districts, teachers do have an unfettered right

To determine grades. They have to remain within the school district's system to a certain degree, such as an A-F system, an S or U system, etc. But as far as the actual determination of a grade, yes, teachers have that right. Sadly, many school districts and administrators, bowing to parents wishes to have little Johnny's self esteem protected, have tried to ban failing a student and giving out an F. Sorry, but that is stepping on the rights of teachers, and furthermore doing harm to the student.

An F is a wakeup call, both to the student and the parent. It signals that both need to pay attention to what is going on with that student's education. Is Johnny not doing his homework? Playing too many video games? Or perhaps Johnny has a learning disability that needs to be investigated. F's are given out not to punish a student, but to alert both the student and the parents that something is wrong.

If you eliminate F's, a lot of parents will simply think that their kid is doing alright, as will many students. Yeah, they're getting a D, but hey, D is passing, right? And thus the kid goes merrily on the way to hell in a handbasket while everybody just kind of sloughs it off. Sorry, but this is simply doing a great disservice to a kid.

Furthermore, by eliminating F's you inflate the whole grading scale, which is already too inflated in my opinion. F's become D's, D's become C's, C's become B's, B's become A's and A's become cheap. Even more fun, helicopter parents swoop in demanding that their precious gets an A for doing B or C work, actually this simply becomes more frequent since helicopter parents are already doing this.

Thus, eliminating F's is simply wrong. It intrudes on the rights of teachers and it does grave disservice to students. It is part of what is wrong with our education system, everybody thinks that they know what's best for education and stomp all over teachers, the one who actually have the education, training and experience to actually teach. We need to stand back and let the pro's actually do their job instead of letting untrained yahoos try and do it for them.

[XemaSab]

52. I had friends who flunked 4th grade

They repeated it, and went on to go to college and lead happy, productive lives.

There's a lot of material in that year, and incomplete mastery of it could be crippling down the road, especially in math.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Except where I teach (and I believe this is very common)

only the superintendent can change a grade. So a principal has no right to dictate grades to teachers. In fact, that would get a principal fired in many districts.

And of course the teacher has the right to determine grades. I can't imagine why anyone would assume a teacher does NOT have that right.

As for flunking 4th graders, if they don't do the work, they fail. If they don't come to school, they fail. I taught 4th grade for many years and yes, I gave Fs.

[name not needed]

80. Right on! We should just give them all A's

Then nobody has to feel bad about being a complete moron! :eyes:

[Posteritatis]

81. Only if the district, which is after all infallible, says we must! (nt)

[roguevalley]

99. worked for george bush. :)

[roguevalley]

92. I suppose you don't teach. I did for 27 years. Kids get what they

earn. Teachers do their best but some kids don't give a fuck and they should get the i don't give a fuck grade which is f.

Of course 4th graders who don't do the job get an f. they earned it. I have given them. to do otherwise is bs. If you taught and your comments lends me to believe you don't then you would get it. If someone else in another job did shit work, they wouldn't get rewards that they didn't earn. they would get fired. consider f to be the learning curve for the adult world of I don't give a damn about you, you lazy ass, I will hire someone else.

EDIT: these are dropping down from where they are supposed to belong. :P

[aikoaiko]

25. When I was in primary school, we didn't Fs, we got Es for some strange reason

A new kid to the school got her first test back and it was an E. She thought it meant Excellent and was jumping up and down with excitement. The whole class was puzzled when she said she was happy with an E.

I haven't remembered that event in 25-30 years.

[Shell Beau]

33. In first grade we got S's and U's.

Satisfactory and Unsatisfactory.

[Posteritatis]

46. (C)ommendable and (N)eeds improvement here

Plus a few others that I don't recall. It took some adjustment when I moved to a new school district that used more standard grading schemes in seventh grade..

[roguevalley]

100. I'm so old, we were graded 1,2,3,4,5 with 5 being an f.

[slackmaster]

42. There was a German Literature professor at UCSD who gave out Zs

One of my friends got a Z-------- on his first draft of a term paper.

He revised it and eventually got an A in the class.

That's him on the left.

[sinkingfeeling]

31. Good! I wish millions of teachers would join her.

[QC]

35. The cult of self-esteem strikes again!

Nothing has done more damage in education--not even the present vogue for corporate management structures and the customer service model of school/student relations--than this notion that the highest purpose of education is to make people feel good about themselves.

[Quantess]

40. Yes. I agree, instilling self-esteem isn't the schools' job.

Telling students that they can succeed in school if they work hard at it, is the message that should be going out.

[QC]

43. Vey true. And, ironically, the best way to instill real self-esteem

is to help people to succeed at challenging things, not to rave over crummy work and tell them what special little snowflakes they are.

[XemaSab]

55. Exactly

To wit: I could have majored in liberal arts and BS'ed my way through, but I took my degree in science because it was hard, and even though I wasn't the most high-achieving student I still feel like I accomplished a lot by completing the degree program.

(I mean, hell, my transcript is MINED with F's from math classes I have taken, but I still got through Calculus with a C, and dammit, that C in Calculus is worth more to me than any number of A's in studio art.)

[QC]

62. The best self-esteem boost I ever got

came from getting an A from a professor who terrified people so much they transferred to other schools to avoid him.

The class nearly drove me nuts (I remember once vomiting before doing a presentation) but nothing ever made me feel quite so smart as my A in that class.

[rocktivity]

84. I took a psychology class where you didn't have to take the final exam

if you passed all three of the exams the professor gave during the semester. I didn't do well on the third exam and my final mark was a C. I decided to take the final exam, and about a third of the way through it, I'm tapped on the shoulder, and the professor whispers, "Didn't I pass you?" I said, "Yes, but I want a B." He came back a little while later, read over what I'd written, and said, "Okay, you've got a B." I then collected by things and went on my way! P.S. I ended up with a 2.99 GPA--almost cum laude!

:rofl:
rocktivity

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. Almost is a relative term, I guess

Cum laude starts at 3.5.

;-)

[rocktivity]

105. I guess it is relative. My college had cum laude at 3.0

Summa cum laude at 3.5, magna cum laude at 3.75.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[alcibiades_mystery]

110. Pish posh

That's low end. Summa is higher than magna, by the way.

3.5: Cum laude
3.7: Magna
3.9+: Summa

You mean to tell me a "B" average graduated with honors? That's not so great. I doubt that you're remembering this correctly.

[TK421]

61. Although I've always had issues with some subjects schools emphasize

like Phys.Ed ( I was a chunky kid who couldn't do anything the other kids could do ) therefore, I fucking hated it and tried to get out of it whenever possible. I like to think with my brain

Teach this shit at home; a few years later I turned into a beanpole on my own

[JCMach1]

112. +1

[Initech]

49. How can getting Fs not be a self esteem booster?

When I got Fs in school you know what it taught me? I failed. Try harder. Damn people are getting dumber and dumber.

[TK421]

63. That REALLY needed to be said...thank you!

my Mom was CONSTANTLY on my ass about improving my grades. Math was ( and to this day ) still is my worst subject. I excelled in English, Science, History, etc but fucking Math always held me back.

[Initech]

82. I had a math teacher who was a total psycho.

Seriously it didn't matter if I got 100% of the problems right. If something was even slightly off on his heading he completely marked the whole damn paper wrong, and I fought with him tooth and nail so many times it's not funny. I mean seriously this guy went apeshit if you had say LAST NAME, FIRST NAME and you forgot the comma in between last name and first name. Turned me off of the subject entirely! :rofl:

[tallahasseedem]

115. +1

Spot on!

[Hippo_Tron]

75. I think the question is whether or not they allow them to move on to 5th grade with a D average

The teacher has to have some means to indicate that a student isn't ready to move onto 5th grade. But if they set a rule that says that a D is the lowest grade you can get but that you still can't pass with a D then I think the teacher is just splitting hairs.

[roguevalley]

101. I was grading writing with teachers from all over my district and most

of them were young and newer than the rest of us oldsters, mostly a few elementary and a lot of high school teachers. The scoring system got debated somehow and most of the youngsters wanted to eliminate zero. They wanted to give one point for just putting their name on. That would eliminate zeros. If you put your name on a blank paper or drew pictures, you still got points. I said that if you eliminate zero, then one becauses essentially zero. I wont' try and put down how they wanted to give points for just a sentence and nothing more. That way no one would ever 'fail' but then no one would ever learn and we would all get our ass kicked by the stupid some day. Remember George Bush. God, I hate assholes.

[wickerwoman]

103. I think when I was in school

"D" and "F" were both failing grades in the sense that you didn't progress to the next level.

"D" meant you honestly tried but the work wasn't adequate and "F" meant you didn't try, didn't complete the assignment or didn't hand it in.

I think that was a fair distinction.

Why have grades at all if nobody fails?

[Hippo_Tron]

104. Having grades can deter people from failing

If people know they are going to be assessed in a quantitative manner it may encourage them to actually do the work or learn the material. Not giving out any F's is perfectly fine, just as long as everybody in the class did a satisfactory job.

[Old Troop]

83. Posturing. NT

[Javaman]

113. how so? explain.

since your name is "old troop" perhaps you are from the era where a 69 was a failed grade. No?

[Swamp Rat]

109. TO HELL WITH GRADES!!!

... except for the A's I earned thus far this semester. :D ... to Heaven with those lovely grades. O8)

[Odin2005]

117. GOOD! Grade inflation needs to be stopped!

I don't care if the idiot parents whine about their kid being traumatized by an F.

[mrmpa]

118. when I taught in Baltimore

The best advice I had was if a student failed give them a 64. Reason being that we filled out bubble sheets for grades and the computer was fixed so that a 65 and above was rounded up to a 70, which was passing. I gave students 30's, 40's & 50's then there was no doubt the student had failed.