Anybody who wants to keep all the illegals out of the US

[cliffordu]

needs to go pick fruit for a year. Follow the harvest. Get paid the same fucking 'wage'.

Then tell me what a burden they are.

I've topped onions, strung hop lines, picked cherries, apples, pears, and strawberries....

After the third day of making almost enough to live in a flop and eat once a day, it's really fucking romantic.

[U4ikLefty]

1. They could pay a fair fucking 'wage' .

Say $15 per hour and see how that demographic would change.

[cliffordu]

2. Yep, they could.

I wonder how many crops are going to rot in the fields because shitheads and idiots run the workers out of the US??

[Edweird]

3. I wonder how many Americans will lose everything they own

because shit heads and idiots support 'race to the bottom' economics and would rather their neighbors be homeless than pay a few cents more for their lettuce.

[cliffordu]

5. I worked with those people fro the same shit wage they did.

My only point was running them out without provision for replacement is self defeating.

They've been working for a hundred years in those fields. Nice you grew a concience in this OP.


And I wonder how many 'Illegals' families will starve or turn to the Narco industry to make a living as a substitute.

[Edweird]

14. The replacement provision is us. Wages will be forced up

until enough people decide "Hell, I'll do it for that." Yes, it will cost a little more, but it will be more than worth it in the long run.

The citizens of the other countries clearly have some issues they need to sort out with their government. That, however, is between them and their government. I would support an Edward Abbey solution if there was a way to know for sure those weapons wouldn't be turned on us.

[Regret My New Name]

36. I'd do it for $10/hr, I've done other jobs that had me stuck in an office for less

Not sure how long I'd last doing it, but I'd go for it if I ever wanted a job outside and I had nothing else going on. I wouldn't do it for $4/hr though :/ Then again, I don't think I would do anything for $4/hr

[Flaneur]

79. How much are you willing to pay for lettuce and tomatoes?

[U4ikLefty]

83. As much as it costs to pay a fair wage to the workers.

What percentage of the cost of produce is picking labor?

...butare you really interested in how much I would pay or are you just being a smart ass?

[Luminous Animal]

4. Illegals is a dehumanizing characterization.

Human being are more than their legal status. Using your criteria, people who jaywalk are illegals, people who go over the speed limit are illegals, people who smoke pot are illegals.

[cliffordu]

7. Nice try.

Fail. Now try to address the OP.

[Luminous Animal]

15. "[We] recruited workers but got human beings"

As long as you keep using a term that diminishes a human being (and not grammatically correct, to boot), your OP doesn't deserve to be addressed.

How about you write an OP about "the blacks" or "the gays"?

[cliffordu]

21. Sorry to have offended your finer sensibilites.

now speak to the OP.

[Luminous Animal]

23. Sorry I can't address the OP. I can't get past the rightwing-i-ness...

of the terminology.

[cliffordu]

25. Then go without sin, my son.

:eyes:

[BlueJazz]

6. I don't want to see anybody working for crap wages whether they are...

...here by birth or by boundary.

[ecstatic]

8. But don't you feel guilty expecting "illegals" to do a job

that you don't want to do for pennies? I agree with others, pay a fair wage and someone will be willing to do the job.

[cliffordu]

9. I'd mandate a living wage if I could.

I think we should keep them all out and starved rather than pay them a shit wage they can send home to their families.

:sarcasm:

We can make the welfare queens do the lettice pickin'

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

60. "welfare queens" Nice little Reagan-esque dog whistle ya got there.

Seriously. You just pulled out the Welfare Queen canard in earnest (no, the sarcasm smilie doesn't get you out of it) on DU.

[dawgman]

49. They pay a fair wage in lots of construction jobs

and yet they are still being filled, almost solely, by immigrants, legal and otherwise.

We, the people, don't want to perform physical work. It is viewed as demeaning.

I was explaining to a younger person that a union carpenter where I live makes $40+ an hour in pre-tax on your check wage and another $15 or so in fringe. His response, "That's too much work for a job that isn't very good."

[Andy823]

82. The problem is

They don't have to pay a decent wage as long as there are those who will do it for less money! There are programs to bring up temporary workers to pick fruit and vegetables, but most growers don't want to use them because they have to provide a "DECENT" wage, housing, transportation to and from the fields, and safe working conditions, with illegals they don't have to do any of those things! I know growers who pay minimum wage, but who charge their workers to live in their housing, charge to take them to and fro the fields, and by the time they get their first check and all the "charges" are subtracted, they make far less than minimum wage, but they don't complain because they are here "illegally" and don't want to get deported.

I live in a huge agriculture area where the locals used to drive tractors, trucks and work in the packing sheds. Some even picked the fruit, but now the growers hire illegals, on the most part, to do "ALL" those jobs that the locals used to do because they can pay them less. My brother in law was a construction foreman and he said that illegals would come to him and ask how much the labor jobs paid, then tell him they would do it for far less, under the table! Many construction companies hire them, pay them under the table, and don't have to send in paper work, take out taxes, or pay any kind of benefits at all!

We need real reform where big corporations can't take advantage of the illegal work force. Let those who really want to work here come forward and get legal, and send those who want to commit crimes back home. There are ways to make it work, the first step is go after the employers who hire the illegals, and then come up with a "real" plan the brings workers in for those who "really" need them, but prevents employers from laying off his current work force so he can hire people who will do the job for less money, usually below minimum wage!

[Berserker]

10. FAIL

How about go work construction and make thousands per year and drive a better vehicle than you do. Don't give me that fruit picking bullshit.

[cliffordu]

11. Who picks the friut in the central valley in Cali??

Who picks strawberries in Oregon?

Who picks apples in yakima/??

Get off your dead ass and go look.

Fail indeed.

[Berserker]

13. My dead ass

works construction. GO LOOK at that know it all.

[RKP5637]

12. The Fed needs to get off its butt and enforce current immigration law as applicable, plus

ensure labor is pad a decent wage. The entire process needs to be brought out of the dark. Severe penalties needs to be dealt to corporations that fail to perform.

[cliffordu]

18. Yep, yep and yep.

Fine the shit out of the exploiters.

Pay the workers a decent wage,

workers permits for all qualified individuals....

[harkadog]

16. I wonder how all the countries in Europe survive without

cheap labor from Mexico picking their crops. Been to Europe many times and I have yet to see anyone starving and the food is not particularly expensive. Hmmmmm.

[cliffordu]

19. Small farms abound.

Hmmmm

[harkadog]

27. I don't know the percent of small farms in Europe

vs. America but I know that the countries of the world seem to get along without labor from Mexico and for the most part do just fine. So I don't think the world is going to end if we end cheap labor from Mexico.

[SmileyRose]

34. Actually they do rely on poor brown people

http://www.euractiv.com/en/climate-environment/expert-europe-unaware-water-footprint/article-179526

http://www.alternet.org/water/96653/it%27s_pretty_clear_that_europe_is_using_%27trade%27_deals_to_steal_food_from_poor_countries/?page=1

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/agrista/tradestats/index_sem.htm

[harkadog]

37. Your links bring up issues of water and food distribution

But they say nothing about using cheap, usually illegal, labor to pick their crops.

[SmileyRose]

42. European food importation is at the links as well also see WTO website

Europe imports much of it's food. if fruit an veggies come from the US they are more likely than not to have been handled by poor brown people. Europeans import quite a lot of grain products from Africa and Pakistan as well. I would not expect those crops are being tended by what might pass as middle class in those places.

[fleabert]

48. african fruit and veggies

we get it here in dubai. and delivery was disrupted to europe with the volcano-all over the news, bbc, skynews, cnnintl, etc...

[harkadog]

72. The point is that the U.S. will get by if we eliminate cheap

exploitative labor whether legal or not. And we should. We won't starve.

[fleabert]

76. not get rid of- reform.

and not all farms are awful. i know of some (family owned) that made sure their folks paid their taxes, had paperwork, were paid a fair wage, and had adequate housing. they also treated them fairly day to day, and did not work them to death. it can, and is, being done, just not on a large scale. Their labor still BY FAR was made up of folks from Mexico.

[Union Yes]

17. Organize ALL farm workers! knr nt

[cliffordu]

20. NOW YOU'RE TALKING.

[Berserker]

22. Unionize farm workers

UNION JOBS FOR ILLEGALS NOW.

[cliffordu]

24. Bzzzt Wrong answer.

Unionize the fucking JOBS.

You unionize JOBS, not people. People join unions.

You cannot join a union without having the correct documentation.....whatever that might entail...

You won't. You're too bitter.

Too bad most construction isn't done by union labor like it used to be.

Ya got fucked but it wasn't the 'illegal' who fucked you.

It's the asshole doing the hiring. It was Reagan who started the unionbusting in earnest....

Do you live in a 'Right to work' state??

Prolly.

Doubly fucked.

But you just keep blaming the guy from Oaxaca who's drinking your milkshake.

[Berserker]

26. WHAT

(You cannot join a union without having the correct documentation?) Oh really what the fuck is that? Why not the illegals are here trying to make a living. It seems things change when unions are mentioned.
Oh and by the way FUCK reagan and drink this.

[cliffordu]

31. You need to get straight as to who you're really mad at.....

A nice union would protect you, but St. Ronnie fucked the unions,

Still, you can blame everyone but who needs to be blamed.

Best of luck with that.

[earthside]

28. Ahem ... Indeed.

You are so correct, Lovey.

The little brown people are the necessary peasant class who we must have to support our exceptional American lifestyle.

The more the better, I say.










:sarcasm:

Illegal immigration perpetuates the oppression of working people in Mexico and promotes the creation of a low wage nation in the United States.
Why else do you think the U.S. Chamber is such great champion of "immigration reform"?

[cliffordu]

32. Then let's reform it......

Odd how people who've never worked that kind of work are always soooooo quick to judge...

Do you by the oranges in the supermarket?? Grapes? Lettuce???

Who picked them??

Now, feed that high horse some of that hubris and get over it.

[pampango]

44. Actually the Chamber has not endorsed Obama's framework for immigration reform. Organized labor

and the Progressive Caucus have endorsed it.

[Hello_Kitty]

62. Yeah, just like the insurance cos."opposed" HCR, even though they wrote the bill.

The Chamber will play a major role in immigration reform this time around. Just like they did in the 2007 bill that didn't make it. What they want, and will get, is a guest worker program where the worker is tied to one job and gets deported if they lose that job.

[pampango]

74. If this is "I don't care what they say or how they spend their money on ads", I KNOW what

they support and don't support." Is the position of the Chamber (even a camouflaged one when they say they're against it when they are really for it), all that matters? Does the position of organized labor and the Progressive Caucus matter at all?

And organized labor and the Progressive Caucus are once again buffoonish dupes of the PTB, buying what they're selling without regard to the impact on the poor, workers and middle class that they purport to support? It's no wonder conservatives have gotten their way relatively easily the past few decades. Our progressive legislators are either total simpletons or quite easily purchased.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. No, they're trying to make the best of what we are going to get.

Just as health care advocates and progressives went along with HCR, as deeply flawed as it was. What came out at the end is arguably better than keeping the status quo, but it also entrenches some of the worst things about the health care system. The same is true of immigration reform. It will bring people out of the shadows, which is an undeniably good thing, but maintains abuse and exploitation in many workplaces.

[SmileyRose]

29. Can I just remind everyone

there's a reason nearly all family farmers sold out to big agriculture and moved to the cities.

[MODem75]

45. All of the undocumented immigrants that I have met were very productive workers.

I say give them a path to citizenship and force their employers to pay a decent living wage.

[barbiegeek]

61. Yeah, Reagon's grain boycott of Eastern Europe

No money in it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. K&R

[cliffordu]

33. Thank you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. I never worked in the fields but I did construction and washed dishes with "illegals".

Got paid the same below minimum wages and sweated as much as they did. The only difference was that I didn't have to sweat La Migra. You're right, there's nothing romantic, or noble, about it. It's just bloody hard work for anybody doing it.

[EFerrari]

35. I have an add on.

You don't want MEXICANS here? Don't invade Mexico and call it Arizona.

lol

You don't want folk from Salvador, Nicaragua or Honduras in your hood? Stay the hell out of Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras.

Seriously.

You don't want Haitians here? Stop f#cking with Haiti.

How hard is this to understand.

[Confusious]

39. Sorry about that, I was drunk a lot then

I've gotten better and I'll stop fucking with Mexico, Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras and Haiti.

[EFerrari]

40. Maybe you should write up your story for the State Department.

You never know when a seed will take. lol

[Lagomorph]

38. I'm against....

...illegals for all the reasons mentioned. They are exploited in an inhumane fashion and there is very little incentive to improve their lot in the business sector.

I'm not for closing the borders or denying Latin Americans legal entry to work the harvest every year or take up residence.

I picked apples and applied pesticides to survive in rural America. Got a trip to the hospital when a hose broke and I was doused with nerve toxin.

[KillCapitalism]

43. Are there even jobs available to do this?

With sky-high unemployment I think fruit picking jobs would be next to impossible to find.

[cliffordu]

54. They're always looking for help over in Yakima,

But most US citizens won't work that hard for so little.

[fleabert]

46. I know enough people who have topped onions and cleaned fields to know you are speaking the truth!

if only the wages could be higher...

the people i know started there and most moved up to citizenship or at least resident alien status, but it was before the current hateful climate.

the first generation of Americans born to these people have almost all (90% by my anecdotal estimation) done better than their parents before them, and got a taste of working the fields as children- they appreciate the hell out of the sacrifice their parents made for them to have a better life.

the onion smell takes weeks to wear off... and sugar beets! ugh.

edited for clarity and to add:
it was quite clear to me that your message was more about respecting what these people do for us as a whole instead of treating them like trash that needs to be thrown out. I am as close to being Mexican as one can be as a white person (if you knew me irl you would understand, lol) and i was not offended. A path to citizenship that appreciates the benefits brought to the country at large is necessary, as is an easier to obtain guest worker program with human rights negotiated (wages, benefits, healthcare, safety, etc)

it's complicated, but it's also simple: the US food machine as it exists now does not function without guest workers, here legally or not. If we toss those workers out without fixing the machine, it will cease to function at all.

getting rid of 'illegals' is more about the color of their skin and the language they speak than anything else- if they were english speaking white canadians working the fields- there would be a significant lower number of people freaking out about it.

[cliffordu]

55. Yep - and thanks for your support.

Amazing to me how many fucking people got this totally wrong...

[dawgman]

47. you must be from walla walla

[cliffordu]

52. Lived there and worked there for sure.

[grantcart]

50. Or get your kids to do it!!!

I did it as a kid and it is a great job for a summer job. You can make a lot of money, it gets you in shape and gets you outside. Cherries and strawberries.

A fantastic job for a kid but we all know that no one is going to do this their whole life unless they are facing starvation, and now adays getting your kid to clean up their room involves a major battle especially after your teenager has consulted their legal defense fund i.e. their peer group that will establish conclusively that cleaning a room is evidence of anal retentive nest syndrome, wastes valuable education time and is harmful to students because it creates too narrow a living paradigm for them to experience the creative ambiguity of the living process. Getting them to do back breaking work, not going to happen:

Here is what is wrong with the AZ law


1) It is cynical and un American.

When Phoenix was the fastest growing city in the US they welcomed cheap undocumented labor and now that they are having time they want to throw out all of the labor that helped them. How about they tear down every building and house that was built with illegal labor to show us how sincere they are. America is not simply a nation of laws but also a nation of fairness.

2) It will harm American national security.

Without this labor source the US agriculture system would collapse. Some machine friendly crops like corn and wheat would survive but a large portion of our food would now be produced in Mexico. When that happens we will be as dependent on Mexico for our food as we are the middle east for our oil. An exceptionally stupid idea.

3) It will help crime and cost lives both civilian and police officers.

In New York City it is against the law for police officers to give information on a persons legal status to federal officers. Where does crime primarily exist? In neighborhoods that are poorer and have high numbers of undocumented workers. In those neighborhoods a family man who may be married to an American citizen and have American children might very well witness a crime, say someone parking a SUV in Times Square for example. If that person is likely to be thrown out of the country once the police are involved why would they call the police. They won't.

Take another example. The police are called to enter an apartment building on a domestic disturbance call on the third floor. A good guy (undocumented) sees the police coming and knows that their is a brother of a resident visiting in the second floor. While he wouldn't normally get involved he knows that this brother is a person high up in the drug cartel and wants to warn the police so that they don't get shot in the back when this guy gets spooked. In AZ this guy will not identify with the police but go and hide under the bed. In New York this guy will go out and warn the police ahead of time.



And here is the final blow. They know that it is unconstitutional. The reason that they wrote such a terrible bill is not because they are stupid it is because they could vote for a bill that would be quickly thrown out. That way they don't have to worry about a right wing primary opponent but don't have to worry about the consequences of a bad bill. It is cynical politics at its worse. If this guy is happy being a pawn in an unconstitutional con job then so be it.


There is a reasonable way to solve the problem

1) Increase border security

2) Normalize status for undocumented workers who are here and have demonstrated that they contribute to the country and are law abiding.

3) Establish a workable guest worker job that will allow us to bring in workers under healthy safe and honorable conditions for jobs that Americans no longer will do. In my teens I picked fruit. I loved it and made a lot of money doing it but my kids and your kids aren't going to do it and I am not going to do it now.


Finally these extreme rightwing ubher patriotic memes are nothing more than political masturbation they are intended to give frustrated uninformed citizens momentary relief but not really do anything.

[Romulox]

51. Wages are supposed to rise when work is undesirable. There are no jobs American "no longer do"

That phrase is a nonsense.

[grantcart]

63. lol yeah right lol

As a business consultant I have consulted with hundreds of business that are unable to attract jobs at competitive wages. Go to a college town and contact the restaurants that cater to college students and are located within blocks of 20,000 students - they can't find labor. The cannot find people who will wash dishes and clean bathrooms for a competitive waqe.

If you think that what is acceptable employment hasn't changed between the generations then you are solely out of touch. The fact is that there are hundreds of jobs that younger Americans refuse to do, at very good wages. In San Diego where restaurants are desperate for workers in the kitchen young people refuse to work in the hot smelly kitchens but they will wait tables if it doesn't conflict with their surfing schedule.

Yuma AZ is a major agricultural area and every day buses bring over hundreds of agricultural workers to pick fruit in 120 degree weather - yesterday it was a relatively cool 101. If those workers are not brought in that agricultural are collapses and that production would shift to Mexico making it yet another product that we import. Now we not only become dependent on other countries for our oil but also for food. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

[Romulox]

64. You seem to have a poor grasp of fundamental economics--you don't get to unilaterally set wages.

Wages are set by supply and demand. Again, in this context your phrase "competitive wages" is nonsense--undefined and undefinable.

[LostInAnomie]

73. Exactly.

The phrase "competitive wages" is meaningless. What it means in most cases is "competitive with other restaurants that hire illegal immigrants".

[fleabert]

78. add theme parks to the businesses that rely on young workers and are ALWAYS hiring...

the easiest slots to fill are the ones in A/C- the most difficult? bathroom cleaning- in my experience they usually hire adults who are not from the US because they are the only people who are willing to do it, and they do it well- with pride and attention to detail. those that insist that there are no jobs Americans are not willing to do, haven't done the hiring for janitorial or farming.

Do 3rd+ generation Americans show up at the interview? occasionally. Do they take the job if offered? rarely. Do they stay for any length of time after training and a few shifts? almost never.

Always looking for something better- it's the American way!(that's not a bad thing, but let's be honest about it!)

[cliffordu]

53. yep, yep and yep.

Good answers, GC.

How's the dog??

[Elder Hippie]

56. Paying any human less than minimum wage is SLAVERY

Hi, I'm new here. I've been lurking but I can't stay silent any longer.

Greedy business people like illegals because they can pay them low wages. This is modern SLAVERY, plain and simple.

When you can hire people to do dangerous or dirty jobs that Americans won't do and pay them pennies you are exploiting them.

Business people are no better than plantation owners in the 19th Century south, or the people who run slave labor sweat shops in China.

When are people going to wake up and demand the US minimum wage for ALL people in the US?

When are we going to stop exploiting people like SLAVES and pay them a living wage?

Sorry, I am furious over this issue....

[RKP5637]

69. +1000 +++ !!! Agree 100% n/t

[cbayer]

70. Welcome to DU, Elder Hippie.

:hi:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

57. There are no advantages to tolerating illegal immigration over making legal immigration easier.

I am quite prepared to believe that immigration benefits the US.

If this is the case, the correct approach is to make it easier to immigrate legally, not to tolerate legal immigration, coupled with an amnesty for those illegal immigrants already here who are willing to apply officially, and a concerted effort to deport those who don't apply.

Legal immigrants pay taxes, they can vote, they can access healthcare more easily, they don't provide income for people-traffickers, and because they're less likely to be desparate, less likely to be "below the radar" and more likely to feel they have a stake in the country, they're both less likely to commit crimes and less likely to be the victims of crime and probably easier for the police to deal with if they do/are. If nearly all your immigrants are legal, it's much easier to turn away those people who you really don't want immigrating because they have e.g. serious criminal records than it is when there is a large beaten path of illegal and undocumented immigration.

The current pressure of illegal immigration makes it pretty much impossible to prevent. The only way to reduce that pressure is to make legal immigration easier.

And, having done so, illegal immigration should be cracked down on - it's not immensely harmful in itself, but it's mildly so, and it's the compost in which some really quite horrific plants flourish.

[colhathi]

66. Making legal immigration easier

The policy stance you propose is seems quite rational. In
effect, you propose having every illegal resident apply,
officially, for residence and, I assume, be forgiven for the
illegal entry or illegal residence as a reason for denial. 

So far so good.

First, the administrative and judicial mechanisms that deal
with immigration would have to be vastly expanded.

Second, current immigration criteria, put simply, is based on
family relationship or job qualifications.

What percentage of current illegal residents do you think
would actually qualify for residency ?
Would it be enough to make enforcement, that is to say mass
deportation, a feasible option ?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

81. What are the alternatives?

As far as I can see, America has three options:

1) Continue to have 10 million and growing people here illegally and unregisteredly, with all the problems I've outlined above.
2) Deport 10 million or more people, and overcome the vast lengths people are currently willing to go to to get in.
3) Legalise most of those 10 million people, deport the remainder, and tackle illegal immigration by reducing the demand.

Yes, you'd need a large investment to manage 3), but not nearly as much as you'd need for 2), and I suspect that not nearly as much as the hidded costs of 1).

What fraction of current illegal immigrant qualified for an amnesty would depend entirely on what conditions were attached to it. My approach would be to attack it backwards: work out how many people it is feasible to deport or attempt to deport (all those with serious criminal records, for starters, I think), and set the conditions loosely or tightly enough so that all but that many people qualified.


At present, America's immigration laws are such that it is neither ethical nor practical to enforce them. I would like to seem them loosened to the extent where it is both moral and possible to enforce the letter of them, and then enforced fairly draconically; I think that this would/will involve some fairly extreme relaxing but that that would probably be worth it.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. You're the one romanticizing it.

Rather than calling for the abolishment of the horrible jobs, you praise the people doing them and wag your finger sanctimoniously at everyone else. I honestly believe a lot of pro-immigration people are just as racist as the xenophobes. Only they're condescending and phony about it, whereas at least you know what you're dealing with were the overt bigots are concerned.

[cliffordu]

67. Maybe you should re-read the OP.

None of your criticism applies.

I was talking to the bigots.

Sorry you cannot understand it.

[barbiegeek]

59. I use to walk Beans & detassle--20 yrs ago it was good pay

I earned $8/hour in 1984. $12/hr for detassling. It's $5/hr now.

[cliffordu]

68. Wow, that WAS great wages.

[Gormy Cuss]

65. There are short term agricultural worker visas (H2-As) for that purpose.

The main reasons for illegal immigrants picking that fruit instead are A)cumbersome visa processing and B) cheap employers who don't want to pay what's necessary to meet labor guidelines.

We can easily fix reason A. Reason B is the tougher nut to crack as long as we have an endless stream of undocumented workers willing to risk it all to come here.

[laureloak]

71. All should enter the country legally like the rest of us did. n/t

[EFerrari]

75. I don't know about you but I came through the cabbage patch.

[walldude]

80. LMAO.. you're kidding right?

Yeah we stole this place fair and square and the rest of you losers ought to go steal your own country. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[cliffordu]

84. 'At's right dagnabbit....

:rofl:

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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