Tenured teachers are our experience

[Klukie]

and regardless of our nations current ideas on the matter...EXPERIENCE MATTERS!!!! If we continue to find ways to devalue the experience required to keep our schools operating it is at our own peril. A teacher with 30 years of experience has a wealth of knowledge and understanding of our educational system and they are the ones who help to shape our future teachers. Why would we want to destroy that?

[erinlough]

1. Thank you, as a 35 year vet. Haven't heard much of that lately.....

I will only say that I feel pretty defeated these days, and I teach in a successful school and have had much success in my career.

[Klukie]

3. You are quite welcome...

and thank you for your service to our country!!!!!! You know, the disregard for experience is happening in many areas of our society. In the co. my husband works for it has become commonplace for the leaders to be folks with just a few years experience over folks that have been there a lifetime. The funny thing is that the so called leaders are fully depending on the abilities of the guy with 30 years for their own success. I can only imagine how demoralizing this would be not to mention the animosity it would create.

[izquierdista]

7. I was one of those "leaders".

That you seem to be denigrating. when I became a manager, I had 3 years with the company, and I had one 30 year and two 25 year people on my staff. Funny thing was, there was no animosity at all -- I was there to insulate them from the bureaucratic bullshit that came down from above.

[Klukie]

8. Then you didn't lead them....

If you were there as a buffer, then who led them? Let me ask you something....did you know the craft? The lack of knowledgeable leadership is what has allowed the Bureaucratic bullshit to crop up in the first place. Why do you think companies are promoting those who don't fully understand their crafts? It is way easier to pass off the bullshit on someone who doesn't know any better.

[izquierdista]

13. Degrees

I had the most advanced degree, so that impressed the resume readers as well as vouched for my knowledge. I found that if you tell experienced people what needs to be done, they can usually get it done, even if they haven't collected a bunch of letters after their name. What they don't need is to be micromanaged.

[LWolf]

14. Education is not a business, and management experience and experiences

do not correlate.

Except in the views of those who want to destroy public education.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

16. I don't know anything except it was a "business."

Which means it was not public education.

And, it really doesn't matter what it was, or if it was.

My point stands.

[Dinger]

38. Same Here (nt)

[goclark]

2. I totally agree and I was a Teacher, a Consultant

and Administrator for over 38 years.

I have seen the best of them and the not so good of them.

At least 80% of all the teachers that I have ever known love what they do and give their all every day for the children.

Some were just Born to Teach.

Some learn how to teach from the experienced teachers surrounding them.

Some learn to be average and still work long hours and improve each day.
Yes, there are a few that just don't make the grade.

Usually they don't stay long because the children drive them crazy and the Principal and parents do to ~ they generally leave.

I have been on both sides of the Union.

A huge part of what they do is for the good of the children and schools. Union Reps can give Principals and School Boards the Blues but even then, they are still a TEAM with a history of making Schools better for children.

As I look over my career as an Educator, I'm on the side of the Union.

Please don't get me started on Charters, they have a long way to go before they can hold a candle to a good Public School.

They generally can't hold a candle to a school with years of traditions and parent support and teachers that have lived in the community.

I cry for Public Education.

[madrchsod]

4. according to the powers that be---no they are not.

why "THEY" want to destroy that? only THEY can answer for their beliefs.

[Klukie]

5. I guess I try and make it a we conversation because the "They" will affect all.

[Klukie]

6. Why would someone unrecommend a post in support of teachers?

[Catshrink]

21. Believe me, there are plenty of people here who hate teachers

and believe Obama/Duncan can do no wrong. There are some who eagerly applaud the dismantling of public education. It's very very sad.

[madinmaryland]

65. The same ones that think coal miners are overpaid, and think unions are bad.

[Catshrink]

66. +1

[stray cat]

9. so is anyone over say 40 I guess

[erinlough]

10. I'm 57......I would have to be to have 35 years in.

I feel too young to retire, I still love the kids and the job. My state is in the process of penalizing those of us who decide to stay.

[DailyGrind51]

30. My state is doing just the opposite, requiring new hires to retire at later ages.

Illinois has an epidemic of State employees who retire young enough to get another State job only to eventually retire with two State pensions. The State of Illinois is near bankruptcy!

[DirkGently]

11. In order to destroy public education?

Teachers are, of course, the enemy, along with journalists, scientists, college professors, and anyone else capable of providing objective information or (gods forbid) helping someone learn to THINK.

Good on Charlie Crist and his veto stick.

[Igel]

12. Differing views, that's why.

You see, the current tenured teachers were trained when? 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

What were they trained in? "21st century skills"? Whole-text approaches?

Were they trained to differentiate their curriculum for ESLs at varying levels? To accommodate specials needs students?

Do they rely on their own experience--which one textbook I've read means that they've analysed student behavior in non-research-oriented ways, relying crucially on their confirmation biases instead of relying crucially on researchers to tell them what the right social attitudes are and the One True Way of analyzing behavior through the prism of those attitudes? Yes, it's condescending, pompous, and arrogant. Like education school faculty can't be as arrogant as members of other faculties and believe that they, and only they, have the One True Way. (Which, oddly, seems to shift periodically, so today's One True Way may have bits of the previous One True Way embedded in it, but is utterly distinct from the previous and utterly false One True Way).

You see the problem. If we must do what the latest research says to do, including revamp entirely our approach to classroom management and discipline then why do we need old dinosaurs around? After all, bright young researchers whose real interest is in training grad students must have much more experience than somebody that's been in the classroom for 20 years.

That's the technocrat way of doing things. They're the dictators, albeit--at least in their own minds--completely benevolent.

The other is to point out that, indeed, many tenured teachers suck. They may enjoy what they're doing, they may not. Identifying those who love and are good at their job and then asking us to generalize and assume that *all* tenured teachers love and are good at their job fails basic logic. Except that once tenured, it's hard to dispose of them. There's a very large strain of "it's better to punish 100 innocent and nail the guilty than let the guilty person go free" in much of American thought across the political spectrum. It's scary, but it's there.

Moreover, once tenured it's hard for the technocrat administrator who does want to shake things up to compel "buy in" or retraining for a new program. Then again, this is really just a sort of amalgam of the previous two points and thoroughly derivative.

[LWolf]

18. No. Currently tenured teachers

have had to keep their credentials updated.

We are always training. Always.

Always updating our licenses. Always in trainings and classes to ensure that we are "current."

We're more likely to know whether something new coming down the pipe is credible or not, based on our experience. Or, if credible, whether or not it will work in the structure we work in...which we don't control.

We're more likely to understand the best application of any new idea, method, or research, in order to make it most effective.

We're also the ones those new teachers turn to when they are struggling to manage their classrooms during those first few years.

Not that there aren't cases of burnout; it would be surprising if there weren't, given the working conditions. Still, that burnout is easily addressed by improving those working conditions. There are reasons why so many teachers leave the profession within the first five years of teaching. Most deal with working conditions.

http://www.nea.org/home/37001.htm

http://www.all4ed.org/files/archive/publications/TeacherAttrition.pdf

[DailyGrind51]

44. I believe that more support from parents and administration would alleviate "burn out".

[Catshrink]

48. Absolutely.

I'm lucky that my admins are great but there are some parents who sincerely believe that their child would never lie, shout to a friend across the room, cheat on a test, plagiarize, etc. Some of my students have never heard the word no -- it's a very hard lesson to hear that word at age 17 and, gee, I'm a real asshole for being the first person to say no. These kind of parents can sap our energy - they just need to do their jobs!

Here's a great article about this:

Enabling kids is disabling kids

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/articles/2010/04/11/20100411bland0411.html

[LWolf]

58. I do, too. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. This 30 year veteran teacher thanks you

[Klukie]

19. you are very welcome....

I have watched my daughters teacher this year (she has about 25 years in) and I am amazed at the amount of dedication she puts into her job. She is one of three first grade teachers and one of those teachers is a first year teacher. She assists the newest one in so many ways and I just hate the idea that all of her hard work and experience can be disregarded by some so easily...in my mind she is invaluable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. There has always been a place for both of us

It used to be a good thing to have both experienced veterans and newer teachers working together in a school. Now, not so much.

[Catshrink]

22. Now veteran teachers are pitted against the novices.

Commraderie? It's kind of hard when there are budget cuts and someone will lose her job. Riffing a vet frees up a lot of salary but results in the loss of all that experience.

LWolf is right - we are constantly training and updating our knowledge and methodologies. I'm a HS teacher and we strive to keep current in our fields so that our information is fresh.

Contrary to popular belief, it is very difficult for a teacher to "coast" to retirement. We must constantly prove ourselves. It's called accountability.

[fishbulb703]

23. I think current public teachers are under-educated and unqualified. IMO

[Catshrink]

24. Undereducated? Unqualified?

You think so? Just what kind of educational background and qualifications do you think a public school teacher needs to have? And does this only apply to public school teachers? How about private school teachers? Charters?

Do you really believe this or are you just trying to stir up trouble?

Unbelievable.

[fishbulb703]

25. I speak from current experience of people pursuing an Education degree.

First hand from a large public state uni (UF), and second hand from other state schools and private liberal arts colleges.

Why I made 'public' salient was because the best teachers I have ever had were Jesuit catholic. (I'm atheist, philosophy major)

[Catshrink]

26. That's your opinion.

You said "current public education teachers" which would include those currently teaching in public schools. You are so wrong. How dare you call me and my colleagues undereducated? Nearly all of us have masters degrees in our subject area. Some have a masters in BOTH their subject areas and education. One even has a PhD in his subject. We are all highly qualified in our subject areas and have passed the subject areas exams, some quite rigorous.

And, since you obviously don't know what you're talking about, you need to know that those in education training aren't teachers yet. It takes several years to really learn the art of teaching -- even born teachers need time in the classroom to hone their skills. You're judging an entire professional body by a few education students. Guess that Jesuit education didn't teach you critical thinking.

[fishbulb703]

27. A master's requires a 30ish page paper on some random subject.

I could write one on logical positivism right now, especially given years to complete it. A PhD is more like 100 pages, but its the same shit: lots of info about a specific subject that is of largely irrelevant value in education. Teachers are a valuable commodity, most aren't teachers.

[lutefisk]

28. I'll give you this: you have an uncanny grasp of graduate level degrees

If I'd only read your writing at a younger age, I wouldn't have wasted all those years. To think I could have just done a Master's "right now" and crapped out a 100 page Ph.D.

Oh to know it all, again.

:shrug:

[Hippo_Tron]

29. You make a PhD sound like a 100 page term paper, it's absolutely nothing like that

You have to produce original research which can (and often does) take years to complete. It's not about writing the dissertation but doing research for the dissertation.

Both a Masters and a PhD usually require two years or more of coursework on top of the thesis.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. You don't know anything about masters degrees in education

[Posteritatis]

57. Or masters degrees at all, if that's what he thinks a thesis is. (nt)

[QC]

40. Damn, I wish I could have gotten away with a 100-page dissertation.

That would have saved me a few years of hard work and poverty.

[Sparkly]

43. Wow.

:wow:

[Starry Messenger]

45. If this is the result of a Jesuit education

color me unimpressed.

[LWolf]

63. Don't let this joker represent a Jesuit education.

My FIL has one; he was a foster kid raised by Jesuits, and they did an admirable job.

They didn't teach him arrogance, they didn't teach him that their teaching was "better," and they didn't teach him to close his mind.

[Catshrink]

64. Joker is right.

Notice he hasn't been back.

I agree with you on the benefits of Jesuit education. But as we both know sometimes there are students who, despite our best efforts, just don't/won't get it.

[NYC_SKP]

49. That's odd. I had to conduct an in-depth study and collect qualitative and quantitative data...

Process the quantitative data with a little product known as SPSS.

The proposed study also had to pass IRB muster before it began and I had to present and have accepted my entire thesis by a panel of professors.

And this was at a modest state university.

For this, the district raise my annual salary by $1000 while increasing my health plan benefits cost by a considerably higher amount.

I'd love to have only had to create a "30ish page paper on some random subject".

:shrug:

[Catshrink]

50. I HATED SPSS!!!!

And yeah, I meant to use all caps.

[NYC_SKP]

51. I just knew that would get someone's attention!

SPSS evokes a universal "aarrrgghhh"!

Plus, we had to buy the damned program. I still have it somewhere, I should burn it.

:hi:

[Catshrink]

52. Yeah

It's one of those things that ends up in some dusty corner. I was lucky enough to buy it off someone after he finished his thesis for $20. Is there a worse piece of crap software out there? I would have preferred Excel.

:)

[CBR]

54. 100 pages??? I wish that was all it took. You are clueless.

I am spending about 8 hours a day just coding news material for my "term paper" plus teaching and working on three other research projects.

[Catshrink]

55. Slacker!

You should have been able to whip that out in one evening!

:evilgrin:

[Posteritatis]

56. What farce of a school considers a thirty-page article a master's thesis?

I was doing those several times a semester in the last two years of my undergraduate degree.

[LWolf]

62. Where did you get yours? nt

[Dinger]

36. *SNAP*

Geez, some people . . .

[LWolf]

61. There are so many kinds of education degrees.

Are you judging all education degrees from all universities across the nation? You have worked with the people teaching and learning in how many state universities, "other state schools" and "private liberal arts colleges?"

What, exactly, is your level of expertise on these matters?

Are you trying to say that state licensing requirements are not rigorous enough? Do you know what each state requires?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catshrink]

41. It was my 5th grade teacher..

but I outgrew it.

[MadHound]

33. OK smart guy, let's compare curriculum vitaes then

I am graduating with a degree in education, I am certified to teach third-sixth grade elementary and middle school social studies. I am also graduating with a degree in history.

I have taken 169 credit hours. Granted I'm getting two degrees, but most teacher education programs have a lot of hours in them, especially if you are going into secondary education. That's one reason I decided to pick up a history degree, because since I was already going for middle school social studies, all I needed for the history degree is to to the Senior Thesis portion, so why not?

Even elementary education candidates pull down something like 140 plus hours

Now then, I've got a GPA in the 3.9's, dean's list all eight semesters, member of KDP, PAT, ODK, and AX, these aren't social fraternities, they are academic honor societies, I'll let you look them up. Students from the education dept. are well represented in all four of these honor societies, unlike business majors.

On my teacher certification exams I scored in the 97th percentile on one, and achieved a perfect score on the other, without studying for them, simply relying one what I had learned the past four years. I am also graduating summa cum laude, as are a number of other education majors this year.

This is not some little dink school, it is an internationally recognized school that attracts not only top notch faculty and students, but also well known guests, people such as John Kerry, RFK Jr., Eugene Robinson, General Petraeus, etc. etc.

I am not an exception either, my fellow education majors have won many of the same honors, gone through the same academic experiences. In fact education majors have traditionally had to take more academic hours than other disciplines, and generally done better in them. Furthermore, teachers are constantly pursuing continuing education, everything from training seminars to advanced degrees.

So tell me, how did you do in college, what are you doing right now to pursue continuing education? Or are you simply sitting on your ass, doing nothing but whining?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Klukie]

37. no

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catshrink]

42. I don't think it takes even that

:evilgrin:

[DailyGrind51]

47. As a "sub" for nearly 30 schools and certified teacher, I can't agree with you.

The majority of the teachers in the schools for which I "subbed" had masters degrees. I have two, the second earned because of what I admired in the teachers I met while "subbing".

[LWolf]

59. In what way are you qualified to determine MY level of education or qualification? nt

[Catshrink]

60. Exactly.

But you, know LWolf, everyone who's been to school is more expert at education than teachers.

[NYC_SKP]

46. Recommended.

In California, where budgets have been cut by 10% and more, many schools and districts are only thinking about their budgets.

Newer teachers and long-term subs cost far less money.

School "income" is based on attendance, and "expenses" include salaries.

There's got to be a better way, a way that looks to making for a rich learning experience for students, every hour of every day.

And for this we need experienced teachers.

K and R.

:patriot:

[Klukie]

53. Thanks

You are so right...there has to be a better way!