Is there ANY reason for "safe, polite, respectable" antiwar activism anymore?

[Ken Burch]

We're STILL in Iraq. We're STILL in Afghanistan.

Thousands of people are still dying in those places for no reason. And we now know that neither war is winnable, given that Karzai is no longer on our side.

And the president we've elected is still increasing the war budget.

Given all of the above, why should we WORRY about being respectful to politicians, or about whose office gets occupied?

Hasn't the time come to say "Fuck Politeness! Fuck Deference! Fuck 'Respectability'! Resistance NOW!" and to find new(nonviolent, but new) tactics to force our leaders to do what's right?

Why even pretend that anything short of massive confrontation is worth doing?

[Dank Nugs]

1. You've got to give respect in order to get it.

There's not going to be any massive uprising against this, because people have too much to lose.

[Ken Burch]

6. There's no point in showing respect to Congress or the White House

Our leaders in both places have shown that they'll never voluntarily respect us. The only thing now is to FORCE them to change from below.

Staying "polite" means they'll just keep showing us into the offices for a few minutes, "listening" to what we say, then ushering us out with no intention of actually doing what we've asked of them.

Why settle for that?

Especially since settling for that, as it stands, means giving up on actually getting the wars stopped.

The point wasn't just to have liberals sending in the troops.

[ShortnFiery]

15. +1

[gleaner]

66. You are absolutely right on all counts. n/t

[Atticus]

29. Do we care about being respected by people we believe are not worthy of our respect?

Is respect that we must "purchase" by pretending that hypocritical assholes are not hypocritical assholes really worth the price?

Your attitude is worthy of Joe Lieberman and that is not a good thing.

[Mojeoux]

36. You've heard of "Code Pink," but there is also a group called "Women in Black."

It's not as wild as "Code Pinking" but "Women in Black" pick a spot in their town and once a week, stand there with anti-war signs for an hour or two. "Women in Black" promote non-violence and human compassion.
Some "chapters" are silent the whole time, others are loud and sassy.

90% of all responses from people in cars are positive, thumbs-up and waving. Some even roll down their windows and say "thank You." Those expressions are heartening.
However,
One tiny little old lady, with her oxygen hoses in her nose, always likes to shoot us the bird. She's kinda cute, really.
One guy likes to drive by and yell stuff like,
"Hey ladies are your dishes done at home?!"
One lady asked if we knew that we would be shot for protesting in Iraq. She didn't know she would be caught at the red light, so we had time to tell her,
"Yes we know, isn't it great that we live in a country that has free speech?"

There are always supportive "Men in Black" around. Most of whom are ex-military guys. It's just a few hours and like a drop in the ocean but it feels good and may be what Ken Burch needs.

[awoke_in_2003]

54. Johhny Cash would be proud. nt

[Truth2Tell]

65. I can't answer for Ken, but

personally that's not enough for me. I very much applaud and respect what you guys are doing. I have quite a few friends who do the "stand on the corner" thing. I'm just not seeing it working. New ideas means new ideas IMO. I know they're out there.

[Ken Burch]

67. I admire the Women in Black and have known of them for years

But we need to find ways to do more.

[awoke_in_2003]

53. What do we have to lose

stopping the crap in Afghanistan and Iraq? Only ever growing deficits.

[aquart]

2. Sure, go ahead and say it. See how many follow you.

There's no draft. We fight with a volunteer class and mercenaries. We make not one direct sacrifice because of the war.

And Russia needs a good, ongoing laugh.

[Ken Burch]

3. Russia?

What have they got to do with this?

Tell me you're not reviving the "we can't allow a peace movement because they don't allow one in Russia" thing again?

Nobody's tried THAT one since 1991.

[DireStrike]

51. They know firsthand that we're wasting our time with this war

[Ken Burch]

9. Sure, go ahead and stay bland, safe and polite.

See how many follow YOU.

If YOUR way worked, the wars would be over.

[PBass]

4. Your basic concept is a non sequitur....

Since tactic A is not effective (in your opinion) then the only thing that will work is tactic B (which has not been shown to work, IMO).

Effective political groups, IMO:

Move On
Progressive Change Campaign Committee
True Majority
Act Blue
People for the American Way


Ineffective political group, IMO:

Code Pink

[Ken Burch]

5. The "effective" groups you've mentioned haven't stopped the wars, either

And if Code Pink isn't the answer, then something newer and bolder is needed.

Clearly, writing to your Congressman is pointless at this stage. So is just writing checks.

Something has to be done to shake things up. If politeness and "respectability" worked, the wars wouldn't still be going.

As it is, peace voters elected this Congress and this administration and have nothing to show for our votes.

[4lbs]

7. Did MLK ever feel that his policy of non-violent civil disobedience was taking too long?

Had he become more aggressive, would he and civil rights have been as successful?

[Ken Burch]

8. MLK would be called "TOO AGGRESSIVE" by today's "pragmatic" liberals

As the "pragmatic Cold War liberals" called him back then, of course.

(And you can easily guess the kind of words Rahm would use about Dr. King if he walked among us today...)

And I SPECIFIED nonviolence in the OP. If the left learned anything in the Sixties, it's that we aren't prepared for anything remotely like an armed struggle, and that even SOUNDING like you're talking about such methods is enough to get the state to loose the hounds of hell against us.

Nonviolence isn't passivity. And it isn't deference to authority. You can't quote MLK to back the status quo of the antiwar movement. If Dr. King were alive today, he'd be pushing for more dramatic tactics(not violence, but more innovation in approach and more willingness to take risks and challenge the power structure).

Nice try at using Dr. King to smear me, though.

(btw, you DO realize that one of Dr. King's most famous essays was entitled "Why We Can't Wait!", don't you? Dr. King was NEVER patient with injustice, or with the continuation of war. That's why they killed him.)

[Robb]

12. And, by your OP logic, King's methodology should be abandoned

...since we still have racism. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

18. No, non-violent resistant measures are in order.

I've always been a law-abiding citizen and have not ever been arrested, yet I know that if I continue to attend protest marches, that day may come. :shrug:

[Ken Burch]

24. No, not abandoned. Escalated.

n/t.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Check this out.

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/5040/

[Ken Burch]

49. Those kids are great!

n/t.

[Hippo_Tron]

56. Dr. King certainly used dramatic tactics, but...

As far as I know he never picketed the Kennedy White House and actually met with President Kennedy on several occasions. Dr. King knew he had an ideological sympathizer in Kennedy but that Kennedy was reluctant because of politics.

[MisterP]

64. he'd be a Rovian provocateur or tool in their eyes...

TRUE lovers of peace vote for warmongers if they're of the same party Kennedy was in

[Luminous Animal]

39. Code Pink engages in nonviolent disobedience. Plenty of DUers..

find them embarrassing.

[Ken Burch]

68. The "liberals" often felt that way about the Civil Rights activists back in the day

And the "liberal" antiwar types felt the same about the more committed peace workers later in the decade.

It's usually only the "embarrassing" that make change happen.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. "Massive confrontation" - how?

>>>>Why even pretend that anything short of massive confrontation is worth doing?>>>>>

You are correct, imo, that the political process has not hastened the end of either conflict. But what's the alternative?

Which is not to say that there IS no alternative.

[Fumesucker]

11. There is no reason for *any* antiwar activism anymore..

These are now Democratic wars and are hence acceptable, indeed even laudable, to *real* Democrats, ones who support the party over mere principles.





















:sarcasm:

[customerserviceguy]

13. The difference between Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan

The draft. That's it, in a nutshell. America can countenance the waste of lives of 'volunteers' more than it can bear the waste of lives of men whose only other choices are prison or expatriation.

[unhappycamper]

19. I'll add one more difference:

In Vietnam we had real (media) reporting. Peter Arnett and Joe Galloway are two names that immediately come to mind. None of this Onward Christian Soldier shit.

[customerserviceguy]

20. The military

didn't seem to learn anything from Vietnam, except how to co-opt the press.

[unhappycamper]

23. Yup. That's the one lesson learnded from Vietnam.

Don't involve the press.

[DireStrike]

52. Oh you can "involve" them

as embedded reporters to shoot cool night-vision footage of explosions, and point googly-eyed at large but conventional enemy weaponry as if it were a nuke.

[Luminous Animal]

50. Nixon campaigned on ending the draft specifically to drive

well-educated people out of the movement.

[blindpig]

14. Civility gets ya nowhere...

the bastards laugh up their sleeves. General strikes, shutting down business, that gets their attention.

[lunatica]

16. What do you have in mind?

Hopefully it isn't to emulate the teabaggers.

[Ken Burch]

30. I don't have all the answers on that.

I'd be interested in starting a private "tactical forum" for anyone who wanted to discuss ideas without the bad guys looking in.
Anyone who's up for that, "pm" me.

[SDuderstadt]

31. "without the bad guys looking in"

Do you have the world divided up into little black and white categories, Burch? Could you tell us who the "bad guys" are?

[Ken Burch]

32. I didn't mean anyone who's a progressive.

I was talking about government types. Chill.

[SDuderstadt]

33. "government types"?

Do you entertain this fantasy that you're on the government "radar"?

[Luminous Animal]

40. Any organization that discusses civil disobedience is wise...

to discuss it only with people they trust because any organization may be subject to infiltration. And even then, you can never be sure. Its good to have your mission established so when someone starts advocating property destruction or worse, they are kicked out of the group immediately.

[SDuderstadt]

34. Dupe...self-delete

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mari333]

17. if the MSM ever covered the truth, the brutality, the COST of wars

like they did in Vietnam, maybe people would wake up

out of sight, out of mind. they play war games on their computers.



They have no idea that we pay 53% of our taxes to fund these atrocities either.

The MSM is a vapid center right multinational corporate steaming pile of dung .

[Johonny]

28. They don't even cover the protests

If they covered the real unhappiness of the populous for the war perhaps the war would have never started. You have to go back into the 90s to show real news coverage of liberal rallies. I can't remember when 200-300 liberals rallying for a case drew anywhere near the coverage a tea party of 30 people or a Palin speech does. When Al Gore finally came out against the war that didn't even last 24 hrs in the news cycle.

[stray cat]

21. The world didn't change for Tim McVeigh either - it didn't change after he murdered people either

If the tea partiers get violent - i guess thats ok too?

[Ken Burch]

25. I said nothing that could be taken as endorsing McVeigh's tactics, and you know it.

My OP specifically used the word "nonviolent". Therefore, I can't be accused of encouraging violence.

[Greyhound]

27. Nice try.

:rofl:

Ignoratio elenchi for those keeping score

[Luminous Animal]

41. WTF!!!!! Ken Burch specifically said nonviolent.

That was a terrifically ignorant response.

[Ken Burch]

44. Thank you.

It's actually a specifically dishonest response from those who gave it. They KNOW I said "nonviolent" and are distorting my message every time they imply otherwise.

[Forkboy]

46. At least he's consistent.

[mmonk]

22. No. That is why I support Code Pink's efforts.

Get in their faces. Shame them at every turn. Or continue to suffer the consequences.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

26. Not really.

Eight years of Bush Co. showed us that.

I think massive non-violent direct action is the only way to PERHAPS affect change.

If 10k people had showed up in DC and proceeded to the WH where they allowed themselves to be arrested, and then 10k did it the next day, and every day afterwards, then MAYBE we could haev gotten some coverage and MAYBE we could have moved opinion, and MAYBE enough Congresscritters would have been emboldened to stand up to Bush Co.

Regular old marches? Oh, hell no.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. I dunno. Is there ANY reason for safe, polite, respectable anti-abortion activism?

Operation Rescue apparently doesn't think so.

[Ken Burch]

38. Not the same, and you know it.

Staying polite and safe means giving up on stopping the wars.

And there's no way you can seriously compare women seeking abortions or just going to women's clinics for other reasons to apologists for the Middle East Wars.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. False dilemma. eom

[Luminous Animal]

42. They have every right to protest.

And I did clinic defense for years. The problem is that, in many communities, law enforcement sympathizes with the protesters so they are reluctant to enforce the law when the protesters break them.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. And we have the exact opposite problem.

Speaking of abortion protests, the most over-the-top are those guys who drive around in trucks wrapped in gruesome photos of dismembered stillbirths, with some nut yelling into a megaphone. I can't for the life of me figure out how they think that persuades anyone. Maybe it does. Who knows?

[Ken Burch]

47. They probably just think it shames/frightens women into not going into the clinics

Or those guys are just humiliation and rage at the fact that they haven't gotten laid in years(even the married ones).

[SDuderstadt]

59. Bingo!

I knew Code Pink reminds me of another organization.

[BeFree]

55. The hour is getting late

So far, Code Pink is the only real answer going. Them, and Cindy Sheehan.

Both are good examples of what we may all end having to do.

[Ken Burch]

57. Indeed

And we'll need to invent new methods, ways to use the element of surprise, ways to use new media. We will need to reinvent protest and resistance.

[BeFree]

58. Masses

A whole bunch of people doing a whole lot of things during this campaign season.

I spoke ill of the war, in public, to my county commissioners. They are people who are connected. They got the message, but they've only heard it once. If they heard it a thousand times, they just may begin responding and passing it up the chain?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

63. Still trying?

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

61. a critical mass of people can respectfully sit down and get arrested

many times over. That would be effective.

[Raineyb]

62. Well it would keep so-called real Democrats from being embarrassed.

:sarcasm:

Probably not. Why should anti-war protesters be polite? Is there anything about war that's polite?

[SDuderstadt]

69. "Fuck Politeness! Fuck Deference! Fuck 'Respectability'! Resistance NOW!"

Wow. Talk about inspiration.